What Mustansir Mir really says about kharruu liladhqaan
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Mustansir Mir says "kharra Ii dh-dhaqani, to fall down on one's face"
Wakas view is that no one falls anywhere, and that it is all an idiom to express humiliation.
Both are calling them idioms unless you opine Mir is using it as a literal "idiom" in that only one word is an idiom and everything else as is.No, everyone says it's an idiom. Even the sunnis and shia interpret it as an idiom. The problem that we have is which part of it is an idiom - do they fall physically, or do they just get humiliated?
So everyone claims it as an idiom; we only differ in degrees of idiomacy? I agree. Cherry picking one word to change and calling one word an idiom is kinda not an idiom, more like a pun.Traditional They fell to their faces in humiliation - in sujood (onto their foreheads)
Lane's Lexicon They fell to their faces in humiliation - in sujood (onto their foreheads)
Sunni View They fell to their faces in humiliation - in sujood (onto their foreheads)
Mir's view They fell to their faces in humiliation - in sujood (although he doesn't state what he believes sujood to be. But we can safely assume that he has the traditional interpretation).Trad/Sunni Don't get it as explained before. Why choose one word out of the rest of the sentence and then call it "symbolic/doesn't matter as it's in the same vicinity" while everything is literally the same?
Mir Based on what had been presented I took it as an idiom clearly. No idea what his affiliations are or why I would safely assume that he has the traditional interpretation unless you opine it's the pun thing.The idiom is the chin, none of them deny that anyone falls to the ground. Mir is regurgitating the traditional sunni view 100%. There is literally no difference to what a sheikh told me, and what Mir has written. The chin is simply a poetic device that seems to be confusing everybody.
Lane's example is a good one
(of a stone) -- The torrent overturned it.
The stone was overturned by the torrent, so it physically rolled over. The poetic device of saying it rolled "on its chin" is added to induce drama, and to express that it was a large mighty stone.
So, the torrent overturned the stone on it's chin...given our previous example, this one is actually clearer as we can clearly say stones have no chins. Now, assuming the torrent turned a man over we'd be sitting and arguing whether it was literally on his chin or just very intensely while some sunni somewhere decides that turning over our faces 5 times a day is an absolute necessity.I have yet to see anyone proving that mechanically doing this and saying it is a necessity and must be done in a certain way because the quran tells us in those exact terms. The traditional ritual prayer set is a set of rules cobbled together from different sources and using the quran to justify some of its parts superficially. This is why we see such confusion regarding certain passages and their supposed implementation. If someone takes it entirely as an idiom, why would he be wrong? If someone takes it as a play on words and decides to do it literally except for that one word, we might laud such liberal tendencies until he goes around insisting that it is the only way it can be taken.
The issue is personally speaking, it's clear to me that it is an idiom. If someone says to me "you know Jen? She fell to her chin utterly and intensely humiliated yesterday"... As delicious as the temptation is to ask why, in the context of this conversation most everyone will assume it to be an idiom...entirely. Unless someone tells me no no, it actually literally happened...in which case you'd ask what he's smoking. Then he would try to explain that she fell on her face not chin and that chin was only a pun enhancing the drama! In the grand scheme of things, why does it matter? Because it is used as justification for something that is an alleged necessity and thus it becomes necessary to put a spin on things to make it fit the current model. Honestly, who would make up the traditional prayer set based on what the quran contains today if we had no idea of the traditional prayer set? Would you say okay, ima gonna do this and this and that too because the quran says it heree...wait a minute, what? That's how it would go. A classic case of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole if you'll pardon the idiom.
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Cherry picking one word to change and calling one word an idiom is kinda not an idiom, more like a pun.
This is not cherry picking. We have a precedent in the Arabic language from Imru-l-qays, where falling to the chin is used as an idiom. I don't see what the problem is, we aren't cherry picking words, we are explaining the idiom - falling to the chin = falling to the face - that is the idiom.
Secondly, if I say "I cannot come to see you today, because I have a lot on my plate", I am saying that I have a lot to do today. Just because I have a lot on my plate is an idiom, it doesn't mean that I don't have a lot to do.
Saying, "i was up yesterday until the wee hours of the night" - I was up yesterday late into the night.
Just because "wee hours of the night" is an idiom, it doesn't mean that night does not mean night. The "wee hours" is the idiom.
Trad/Sunni Don't get it as explained before. Why choose one word out of the rest of the sentence and then call it "symbolic/doesn't matter as it's in the same vicinity" while everything is literally the same?
Again, we aren't taking it because it's "in the vicinity". Mir gives a pre-Islamic verse to show that falling to the chin means to fall on one's face. And Lane gives several examples from the Arabic language.
The stone is overturned - it falls on its chin.
The tree collapses - it falls on its chin.Mir Based on what had been presented I took it as an idiom clearly. No idea what his affiliations are or why I would safely assume that he has the traditional interpretation unless you opine it's the pun thing.
What pun thing?? Do you know what the traditional interpretation of this verse is?
So, the torrent overturned the stone on it's chin...given our previous example, this one is actually clearer as we can clearly say stones have no chins. Now, assuming the torrent turned a man over we'd be sitting and arguing whether it was literally on his chin or just very intensely while some sunni somewhere decides that turning over our faces 5 times a day is an absolute necessity.
This is a good example. If we say the torrent overturned the stone onto its chin - we all understand that the stone was overturned.
If we say the torrent overturned the man on his chin - it means the man was overturned - simple.It doesn't mean he was overturned "onto his chin", nor does it mean he wasn't overturned at all. I really don't know why you are having such trouble understanding this.
The issue is personally speaking, it's clear to me that it is an idiom. If someone says to me "you know Jen? She fell to her chin utterly and intensely humiliated yesterday"... As delicious as the temptation is to ask why, in the context of this conversation most everyone will assume it to be an idiom...entirely
That's because you are speaking in English, and it is an Arabic saying.
Again, if I say Jen "stayed up last night until the wee hours of the night" - you would assume she stayed up late into the night.
If Jen is a ballerina, and she stumbled in an play, I would say "Jen really fell on her chin yesterday" - as in she fell in a really humiliating way.
Come on man, this isn't rocket science.
I think you should have a look again at Mazhar's post about Cognate Adverbs and my post about Cognate Accusatives. -
peace all,
savage_carrot,
Dont worry, you're not the only one who is failing to make sense of what ths is saying.ths,
You state "Wakas view is that no one falls anywhere, and that it is all an idiom to express humiliation."Where did I say that? If you cannot provide evidence, this will be your 3rd lie about me in as many days.
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I think you should have a look again at Mazhar's post about Cognate Adverbs and my post about Cognate Accusatives.
I hope Mazhar doesn't take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time understanding any of his posts. As for your discussion on grammar etc...I was actually reading a thread where you, ayman and Wakas participated here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599857.135 It is a shame a good discussion was cut short due to personal differences but I would be interested in whether anyone picks it up again. Otherwise, I'm kinda okay with what can be concluded from that thread.Wakas, misery loves company (pardon the idiom, again).
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. ths,
You state "Wakas view is that no one falls anywhere, and that it is all an idiom to express humiliation."
Where did I say that? If you cannot provide evidence, this will be your 3rd lie about me in as many days.Are you seriously going to try to argue that you've never said that? After we have a multiple page debate about it?
To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences.
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Thus, we can safely prove "fall to the chin in sjd" is an idiomatic expression, to me, likely meaning to lower oneself to the utmost, i.e. an idiomatic expression for humility.
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Professor Mustansir Mir (who is known for his linguistic skills) takes it as an idiom as I have already mentioned. AQ used th-q-n to mean "chin". But even if we took it to mean "ground" my point still remains.
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It is "khrr" is redundant because one cannot prostrate without falling first. I guess your only recourse is to say we are meant to do an abrupt or violent fall when we prostrate
From hereDhaqn is a linguistic way of adding stress to the action of falling. To emphasise that it wasn't just any old fall, but a mighty fall.
Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.
Amusingly, you imply the physical prostration we should do is not just any old fall but a mighty one. Perhaps you should consider promoting this translation and investing in a chain of kneepad shops in Muslim countries.
From hereFor sake of argument, let's say it does not make sense, where is your proving that the prophets/messengers did as AQ said to do? i.e. when you hear God's signs "fall to the chin prostrating" / "physically prostrate" (or however you interpret it).
From hereAccording to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?
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In fact, this entire topic was just us debating whether they actually fall in kharuu sujjadan, so I really don't know how you are going to try to deny that now.
This is the simplest thing in the world. When I say
I stayed up to the wee hours of the night.
Am I staying awake? Or is that a metaphor for something else because there is an idiom in the sentence?
Am I staying up during the night? Or should we take night as an idiom as well according to your half-ass logic?Mustansir Mir states unequivocally
kharra Ii dh-dhaqani, to fall down on one's face in humility
EDIT In summary, this claim of yours
So if "they fell to their chins" is an idiom then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not body-physical.
Has been smashed to bits.
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San, please stop evading the questions I've asked repeatedly now
You stated
I agree. Cherry picking one word to change and calling one word an idiom is kinda not an idiom, more like a pun.My questions are
"I stayed up to the wee hours of the night." - This is an idiomatic phrase.
Am I staying awake? Or is that a metaphor for something else because there is an idiom in the sentence?
Am I staying up during the night? -
Whoa san, watch out you're on the radar now! (radar meteorite space get it? nm) P
I assume you meant savage_carrot, ths. And I'm only slightly excited at your mistake unlike some allegedly are. You're not getting the point of my posts, they were analogies based on the discussion and I suppose I went overboard (oh no! will they ever stop!).
It is a one word difference, with everything else the same. Sure you could call it an idiom, but you could also call it a pun. It's like "time waits for no man" and then saying you know actually time is the name of a girl and she hates being stood up for dates, thus she will not wait for any man.
Anyways.
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By the way, if you stayed up till the wee hours of the night you are actually literally staying awake through most of the night regardless of what you were doing.
sorry san, I had it all typed out.
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According to the aptly named site, UsingEnglish, it is
http//www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/
Savage Carrot I notice you are still evading the question.
It is a one word difference, with everything else the same. Sure you could call it an idiom, but you could also call it a pun
So is "wee hours of the night" - 1 word difference, just like in 17107.
Also, whether you understand it or not does not change the fact that Mustansir Mir, the only actual scholar in this tired bunch, is saying that one does physically fall according to that idiom.
But that is all I have time for, I'll have to return later.
EDIT
Before I leave, I noticed that not a single one of you except Mazhar actually commented on the Arabic grammar I posted about. Given that this is a site about the Quran, written in Arabic, I find that odd.
So while I'm gone, feel free to comment on that, as that is what this debate actually pertains to.
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Ahh right, the internet google thing search you accused Wakas of being guilty of? Yeah, we're all guilty of something after all...
I am not translating a book using google translate, I am finding out if a particular phrase is an idiom. If you can't tell the difference between those 2 things then sorry.
Also here are some more references for you
http//idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the+small+hours
http//www.goenglish.com/Idioms/Wee+Hours+Of+The+Night.asp
http//www.englishcafe.com/blog/idioms-and-expressions-second-moment-hour-56980
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http//www.goenglish.com/Idioms/Wee+Hours+Of+The+Night.asp This is how it is actually used in the language.
No, there is no "one word" difference there, it's not even in the same ballpark.
I like the way you slip that in the end though. Classy.
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I hope Mazhar doesn't take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time understanding any of his posts.
Salam Savage,
How are you, all 3046 posts!! since I have only one post on this thread, and that is of course a difficult one, because it was to handle Mustansir who worked on advanced grammer and language issues while forgetting elementaries of Arabic language.
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Salam Mazhar,
Yes, the ones where you talk about grammar. They are excruciatingly difficult to understand and it's not because I don't get the grammar (some might call this defensive, I call it clarification!) but because they are worded very peculiarly. Most of the posts I've read are talking about grammar, the rest I have no idea so I don't know about all 3046.
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Salam Savage,
Grammer is a peculiar subject. Hence it has to be worded very peculiarly otherwise a wrong perception can be obtained.
It is excruciatingly difficult only when there is lack of interest in grasping the original perception contained in second language since one cannot know the message conveyed by a sentence merely by searching meanings of individual words of a sentence of that language in dictionaries, as many people do and compile "scholarly dissertations". Grammer of any language is basically developed for non natives and for putting serious matter in writing.
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Are we seriously comparing (and drawing a conclusion of!) an idiom/pun in English to a Quranic sentence? ??? A bit of a stretch.
Regarding Mazhar's 'grammar'
This sort of anatomizing the quranic language is conjectural at best. I ask you, which came first The quran or the grammarians?
Secondly, Mazhar's post (no offense to him, because i think its a language issue) are often incomprehensible.
Please note I never said to ignore grammar.
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Salam
Thought I?d comment. With the issue of salat obviously there are differing views and it?s natural (I think) that people get emotionally attached to what they believe so they can get offended easily.
Nothing wrong with difference of opinion with justifications, at the end of the day God knows absolute truth.
So Lanes uses other examples, are they the only ones sighted? Gotta link I could check out?
Quran uses idioms, and we know that from the verse 37
In regards to your reference 17107 hypothetically it is a possible clear refers to physical prostration... when you read the verse is that what you visualise? That the knowledge came to them and based on that they believed and they fell down in prostration? Maybe that?s what you visualise.
Something that might not seem significant but probably is 17109 doesn?t mention sujjud. So wouldn?t it be wrong to associate sujjud to ?youkharuna llathakini? in all references? Considering one interpretation of sujud is known as physical prostration on the ground etc, doesn?t this challenge the idea ?
BTW is Mir contactable?
Peace
