Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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I don't assume the worst, I assume Bukhari is somewhere between a criminal to almost divine. I would like to follow what is divine, and there is only one book which is up to par.
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Welcome Quran Alone member number 13.I am sorry my friend Badr, but you are a Quran Aloner in the making. You got all the signs..... welcome
If I wasnt speaking arabic (so I can witness all the misinterpretations and the dishonesty of some of the members that twist the meanings of the Quran to please those in doubt and those who don't know and attract them to make them join their sect), I would have joined your little group.
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Peace,
Respectfully.I came from Regent's mosque few minutes ago and saw that they are selling copies of hadeeth and copies of The Qur'an. But the hadeeth written by men are on the upper shelf and the copies of The Qur'an are below the hadeeth written by men ......
This is not a coincidence.
Peace. -
Peace,
Respectfully.I came from Regent's mosque few minutes ago and saw that they are selling copies of hadeeth and copies of The Qur'an. But the hadeeth written by men are on the upper shelf and the copies of The Qur'an are below the hadeeth written by men ......
This is not a coincidence.
Peace.Can I ask what did you went there for ? (a simple question without ulterior motive)
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Peace,
Respectfully.I came from Regent's mosque few minutes ago and saw that they are selling copies of hadeeth and copies of The Qur'an. But the hadeeth written by men are on the upper shelf and the copies of The Qur'an are below the hadeeth written by men ......
This is not a coincidence.
Peace.Salam to all.
This is sad but typical Allahualam.Respect and peace
Simone sun
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If I wasnt speaking arabic (so I can witness all the misinterpretations and the dishonesty of some of the members that twist the meanings of the Quran to please those in doubt and those who don't know and attract them to make them join their sect), I would have joined your little group.
Yeah, whatever. I got nothing to say because I don't speak arabic so I don't know anything about this, but you are right in a way. It is very easy to subjectively translate. In fact this problem is one thing Quran Aloners don't like about the translated Qurans coming out of Saudi Arabia for example. We too must listen to our own critizism.
I use the english translations of the Quran that have been approved by mainstream islam, and I still don't see how one must have hadith. I am not alone in this, Badr. What you are indirectly accusing the QA translators and QA followers of are that the translators twist the words to manipulate and the followers to blindly follow.........Hmmmm.....isn't that what we don't like about sunni and shia? Do you really think we first warn of the dangers and then forget about them when it comes to ourselves?But let me ask you something. You do realize that Free-Minds.org is only one homepage, right? There are other QA sites.
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Yeah, whatever. I got nothing to say because I don't speak arabic so I don't know anything about this, but you are right in a way. It is very easy to subjectively translate. In fact this problem is one thing Quran Aloners don't like about the translated Qurans coming out of Saudi Arabia for example. We too must listen to our own critizism.
I use the english translations of the Quran that have been approved by mainstream islam, and I still don't see how one must have hadith. I am not alone in this, Badr. What you are indirectly accusing the QA translators and QA followers of are that the translators twist the words to manipulate and the followers to blindly follow.........Hmmmm.....isn't that what we don't like about sunni and shia? Do you really think we first warn of the dangers and then forget about them when it comes to ourselves?Then you have to learn arabic and extract the meaning of the quran without any translation because theres not a single translation that is not based on hadith to explain the words of the quran. Relying only on what people translated for you is like what are following the jews and the christians nowerdays. Their books have been altered due to translations from armenian-hebrew to hebrew to latin/greek to english, you are facing the same threat. You can easily be mislead, think about it.
But let me ask you something. You do realize that Free-Minds.org is only one homepage, right? There are other QA sites.
I suspect your two main sources to be very biased corpus.quran.com and studyquran.co.uk
especially when I see stuff like that Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.
It is adding its own thoughts to the translation = dishonesty.
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It is adding its own thoughts to the translation = dishonesty.
And you think that translators who rely heavily on ahdadeeth are objective and don't add their own understanding of the text?
Sorry, bro, but the opposite is the case. Look at those excerpts from the popular Mohsen / Khan translation, for example
You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
Guide us to the Straight Way.
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
15-7And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful. ?
(2431) -
Then you have to learn arabic and extract the meaning of the quran without any translation because theres not a single translation that is not based on hadith to explain the words of the quran. Relying only on what people translated for you is like what are following the jews and the christians nowerdays. Their books have been altered due to translations from armenian-hebrew to hebrew to latin/greek to english, you are facing the same threat. You can easily be mislead, think about it.
I suspect your two main sources to be very biased corpus.quran.com and studyquran.co.uk
Never heard of them. I speak not only english but my native language as well. The Quran I read has been approved by the major islamic institutions, sunni and shia. I read the same Quran as all muslims do in my country.
And I think learning arabic will help me nothing, better to learn urdu. Didn't Muhammed speak urdu? Do you speak urdu? I think it is better to understand the meaning of it all, to see the message. You keep getting stuck in little details, Badr. Raise your head and see God instead. -
And you think that translators who rely heavily on ahdadeeth are objective and don't add their own understanding of the text?
Sorry, bro, but the opposite is the case. Look at those excerpts from the popular Mohsen / Khan translation, for example
You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
Guide us to the Straight Way.
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
15-7And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful. ?
(2431)So he have to learn arabic and see what's closer to the reality of things.
Regarding this topic
http//img33.imageshack.us/img33/3947/drawntogetherbymodesty.jpg
"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning." (319)
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And I think learning arabic will help me nothing, better to learn urdu. Didn't Muhammed speak urdu?
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
"Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand." (122)
"And thus have We revealed it, a true judgment in Arabic, and if you follow their low desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you shall not have against Allah any guardian or a protector." (1337)
"And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them. "
"An Arabic Quran without any crookedness, that they may guard (against evil). "
"A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know "
"And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire. "
"And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good. "
Are you sure you read the same book than all muslims ?
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Did I said that the science is perfect,
Did I say you said it is perfect?
Again, I was responding to this falsehood in particular
That's why the chain of the narrator is important ; according to aicha who said to ibn abbas who narrated to x who told y who told z. When the chain is trustworthy the hadith must be sahih.
This is a lie. But it is not your fault, because that's what you've been told.
What is clear is that not only is the "science" not perfect, it's actually a scam. This will become clear to you if you do some studying.
in alot of my post you will see that I said mistakes are human and in this case if the Shafi'i said the hadith is false others and I agree with them find it true,
Yes, mistakes are human, but Allah makes no mistakes in His book. You are an advocate of hadith even though you're ignorant of how hadith classification and criticism works. You maintain that sahih chained hadith originate from the Prophet, despite (now) knowing that isnad science can't even rid falsehood, let alone weak traditions.
and it is logical as your duty before your parents came in alot of verses just after believing in allah.. wich make it sacred and more important than alot of small heritage details as you may think it.
As you say, duty to your parents is found in the quran, rendering your hadith redundant. What's the point of hadith that simply repeats the quran? That is not the position of the sunnis,and if you're a sunni you should know this. The whole point of hadith is to detail things that are apparently not in the quran. This is a direct contradiction of every verse that says the quran is fully detailed.
The point of reflection for you is that if the science can't get rid of falsehood through the strength of the chain, and matn criticism has stopped, how do you know these ahadith actually originate from the Prophet?
Shafi'i has his own interpretation like most of you (at your own level of course) may disagree about 2 or 3 prayers, with or without bows (even you are far from beign scholars).
Lol then what's the point of hadith? If Shafi'i et al were having to expose false narrations with sahih isnad how are you sure the hadith you have are really from Allah and His messenger? Shafi'i is no longer alive to analyse your collections, and your scholars are too scared to contradict their forefathers, so how do you know what you have is sahih? This isn't about interpretations of quran and hadith. It's about the so-called science that supposedly provides you details of the Prophet's life. It is not a science, it is purely subjective.
You are afraid to make your mind outside your little bubble and I can understand it.
Fyi, I've only recently come to ahlul quran. Until a few months ago I was a hanafi who fully believed in taqlid. Only through the mercy of Allah was I able to break away from that bubble and see the quran for what it really is a fully detailed book.
Your sectarian mindset will not allow you to see this. You affirm with your tongue that the book is fully detailed and you affirm with your tongue that hadith science has flaws, yet the sum of these two realities does not result in you freeing yourself from falsehood.
Bro, you've got nothing to stand on. If you're sincere, read those links that Wakas provided and refute them if you still believe hadith should be an authoritative source in Islam.
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Did I say you said it is perfect?
Again, I was responding to this falsehood in particular
This is a lie. But it is not your fault, because that's what you've been told.
What is clear is that not only is the "science" not perfect, it's actually a scam. This will become clear to you if you do some studying.
Yes, mistakes are human, but Allah makes no mistakes in His book. You are an advocate of hadith even though you're ignorant of how hadith classification and criticism works. You maintain that sahih chained hadith originate from the Prophet, despite (now) knowing that isnad science can't even rid falsehood, let alone weak traditions.
As you say, duty to your parents is found in the quran, rendering your hadith redundant. What's the point of hadith that simply repeats the quran? That is not the position of the sunnis,and if you're a sunni you should know this. The whole point of hadith is to detail things that are apparently not in the quran. This is a direct contradiction of every verse that says the quran is fully detailed.
The point of reflection for you is that if the science can't get rid of falsehood through the strength of the chain, and matn criticism has stopped, how do you know these ahadith actually originate from the Prophet?
Lol then what's the point of hadith? If Shafi'i et al were having to expose false narrations with sahih isnad how are you sure the hadith you have are really from Allah and His messenger? Shafi'i is no longer alive to analyse your collections, and your scholars are too scared to contradict their forefathers, so how do you know what you have is sahih? This isn't about interpretations of quran and hadith. It's about the so-called science that supposedly provides you details of the Prophet's life. It is not a science, it is purely subjective.
Fyi, I've only recently come to ahlul quran. Until a few months ago I was a hanafi who fully believed in taqlid. Only through the mercy of Allah was I able to break away from that bubble and see the quran for what it really is a fully detailed book.
Your sectarian mindset will not allow you to see this. You affirm with your tongue that the book is fully detailed and you affirm with your tongue that hadith science has flaws, yet the sum of these two realities does not result in you freeing yourself from falsehood.
Bro, you've got nothing to stand on. If you're sincere, read those links that Wakas provided and refute them if you still believe hadith should be an authoritative source in Islam.
So you are affirming that if the science has flaws it is not a science.
According to this ; Mathemathics is not a science, biology is not a science, geology is not a science, archeology is not a science, astronomy is not a science at all, as all those sciences have contradictions amongst themselves and with the quran and most of them are more than approximative.
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So he have to learn arabic and see what's closer to the reality of things.
Who is "he"? The translator? The reader? confused
Anyone who knows Arabic knows, for example, that "Juyubihinna" does NOT mean "their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc." There is an unambigious English translation for the word ? "cleavages". Yet the translator in this case chose to not use it and insert his own interpretations, which is based on hadith, instead.
Let us remember ? I posted this verse in reply to your statement that it's "Qur'anists" who "add their own thoughts to translations". As we can see, that statement is not true, translators who use hadith have clearly been doing it.
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Who is "he"? The translator? The reader? confused
YOU jumped on my post to Emil.
Anyone who knows Arabic knows, for example, that "Juyubihinna" does NOT mean "their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc." There is an unambigious English translation for the word ? "cleavages". Yet the translator in this case chose to not use it and insert his own interpretations, which is based on hadith, instead.
You forgot to comment on the picture ).
Let us remember ? I posted this verse in reply to your statement that it's "Qur'anists" who "add their own thoughts to translations". As we can see, that statement is not true, translators who use hadith have clearly been doing it.
Quranist are not doing it to go around them (as the pagan custom is). Do you see any relevance to this ?
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YOU jumped on my post to Emil.
Err ? you quoted me, so I assumed your statement was addressed to me. confused
You forgot to comment on the picture ).
I was talking about translations, not sure what any picture has to do with that.
Quranist are not doing it to go around them (as the pagan custom is).
Do you see any relevance to this ?Could you rephrase this sentence please, because I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here. Thanks.
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Salamun alaikum
Badr, I think we have to start off with what a 'science' is before you start labelling the method of collection and classification of the hadith collections as scientific (from Wikipedia - a reference you can check yourself)
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge" is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world.
The phrase 'testable explanations' is quite possibly one of the most important there. Let's see
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Light is necessary for photosynthesis. Green plants photosynthesise. If you put a plant in the dark in the absence of sunlight, it will die when it uses up it's stores of glucose. You can test this yourself, but please don't harm too many plants when doing this.
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Ajwa dates are effective against poisons. I will supply you with both Ajwa dates and cyanide. Do you care to test this? If it works - then fine, I will accept that hadith science is correct on that hadith.
Your blanket statement about the other sciences in existence today as being false if we accuse 'hadith science' as being false is illogical and can be proven (I will wait for the test results in regards point 2 to the above) as false. The biology of photosynthesis can be proven and can be tested by anyone.
Also, the next most important point is that you don't need to have the science of biology under your belt to attain Salvation. You need to actuate the Quran into your life. If accepting or understanding the 'science' of hadiths were so important to our salvation then do you think that Allah Almighty would have left something so important to
- Blatant contradictions.
- Miriad illogical statements
- Poor language
- Fantastical explanations for things which can be proven within the realms of natural science. (i.e. earthquakes are caused by the bull who holds the earth between its horns, shaking its head).
- Contradictory and missing information.
- Accusations that the Quran is incomplete - which is saying that Allah Almighty is telling you a lie when he states that the Quran is fully detailed. (Yes, FULLY DETAILED - for YOUR salvation, not for how to build a car)
Which are all totally at odds with the pristine and EASY to understand message within the Quran.
Do you not think that the simplest explanation is the best rather than having a convoluted series of explanations?
Peace
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So you are affirming that if the science has flaws it is not a science.
No, I'm affirming that if the science is not a science, then it's not a science.
Hadith classification is not a science. It's not even close, it is absolute conjecture. I highlight the point I made earlier when the hadith collector (e.g. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud) says narrator x is "reliable", he is stating an opinion and is based purely on hearsay and conjecture. The vast majority of narrators whom they never met were given gradings based on what they've heard about them. These men were long dead. That's why you have sayings like "this hadith has been classified sahih by Ibn Hanbal" or "classed as hassan by Al-Albani". They need to mention the name of the muhadith because the classification is utterly subjective. You never hear someone say "this quran verse is considered authentic by x".
And you choose this "science" alongside quran?
I try to walk on footsteps of the prophet Muhammad PBUH, he was that kind of muslim, he was compassionate, generous, intelligent, peaceful, etc... I try to take him as Uswa as stated in the Quran.
The footsteps of the Prophet are mentioned in the quran. Agree?
If yes, what else do you need? If no, why does the quran say it is fully detailed?
I referr to what he could have done if he was in this or that situation and I deal with hadeeth with an open mind, that means I dont refute it totally nor accept it blindly,
The hadith cannot tell you what he could have done because the hadith are pure conjecture. They do not provide you with the vehicle to get back to the Prophet and observe his behaviour. This has been proven by your own scholars.
I referr also to those who studied it better than me without thinking they are corrupted or plotting, but that mistakes are a human attribute as none is perfect but Allah.
Even if those who studied it better than you are well aware of the flaws of the system but will not openly admit it? If you admit that Allah is perfect then so is Allah's recital. Why would you you leave the perfect recital and seek guidance or "detail" from a crippled and broken collection of hadith?