Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
-
Salaam Badr
Thank you for your nice response, I will only address the above I cut out from your text.
You are helping me making my point. If I were to follow sunni or shia I would have to distance myself from the culture I was born into, I would have to alienate myself from my family. The Quran is God's word, in it you cannot find barriers between cultures, in hadith you can.
I have never had to justify myself to islamaphobes since there is nothing in the Quran that alienates my culture from God. On the contrary, my culture applauds.And exactly yes, you cannot compare 500AD to 2010AD. Just like there are differences between cultures there are also differences in one culture between years. The hadith were collected around 800AD, right? Do you believe that hadith are timeless or connected to a place in time? The prophet Muhammed teachings were directed to an audience which is very different than you and me. Using one example
Back then it was probably absolutely necessary to segregate men and women in the mosque, maybe the men refused to come to the mosque if they had to sit behind a woman, maybe the women felt uneasy about men staring, who knows? Does that mean there should be gender segregation forever and ever? Even if you can prove that the hadith is authentic without doubt (meaning prophet Muhammed said those words), you still cannot prove that the hadith comes from God. You don't know if Muhammed said it because of political, religious or practical reasons. Remember, Muhammed was not only a prophet, he was also a leader.Salaam, nice build
So you don't follow hadeeth because of a cultural thing ?
Many don't follow islam at all because of cultural thing, what makes you different from them ? You obey the quran and don't obey the words of the prophet while it is clearly said in the quran
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.""And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy."
"And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission;"
"And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!"
and remember that you won't follow islam without beign tested, Allah said
"Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested? We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false." (292-3)People have to change themselves to suit you and not the opposite, you are the one who's on the true path !
-
Which is strange logic, no? That quran and hikmah are coupled so deliberately and in so many verses that you're forced to admit that hikmah is a characteristic of the quran, yet maintain that in another verse when the quran and hikmah are combined they mean two separate things.
Although it might not be the ultimate proof you were hoping for, it does expose the irregularity in your reading of the quran.
Man this is more than ireelevant because the word hikma is not an attribute of the Quran alone, if I follow your reasoning ones must stop using this word because it has been said about the quran ?
"And certainly We gave wisdom to Luqman, saying Be grateful to Allah. And whoever is grateful, he is on!y grateful for his own soul; and whoever is ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, Praised." (Luqman 13)
Did Luqman recieved the Quran too ? No !
Then "clearly" the following verse must be referring to two different things as well
Be guardians of your prayers, AND of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah. (223
Isn't the midmost salat part of the salawat? It looks like, according to the way you read quran, that salawat is one thing, and the midmost salat is something different, hence the AND in between them. Allah is commanding you to guard your salawat, and then commanding you to also guard a different thing called salat al wustu. Strange.
This would be relevant if god have said ; He has revealed to you the Scripture AND the Scripture Wisdom. So try again.
Given that you understand Arabic, you could reflect upon the grammar in the following and give us your thoughts
He hath revealed unto you of the Scripture AND the Wisdom, whereby He doth exhort you with it. 2231
Once again, we see the kitab and the hikmah coupled together. Can you see the 'bihi' at the end of the line? I'm sure you know that it denotes the singular form, yet it should have been in the plural if al kitab and al hikmah were two different things. Is it possible that Allah used the singular "with it" because the kitab and the hikmah are actually the same thing?
Or two seperate things that are indivisible.
But if you want the arabic grammatical explanation, there you go your reasoning would be true if the preposition "min" wouldnt be there. In this case it would make he revealed unto you the scriture and the wisdom and not from the scripture and the wisdom . He revealed unto you from what ? from the scripture and the wisdom, why ? to exhort you with it "bihi".
What these types of discussions expose more than anything is that there is nothing in the quran that says follow the quran and (prophet's) sunnah. This is the slogan of the sunnis yet cannot be found anywhere. Clinging onto the hikmah and suggesting it is the prophetic sunnah is similar to how Christians react when you point out to them that there is no explicit verse in the Bible that shows Jesus claiming to be God. They find various other verses that, with enough effort, can show that their belief is justified. So you're welcome to hold onto the belief that the hikmah is the sunnah, but there's no escaping the inconsistency in your own reading of the quran.
Anyway, I agree with Leyla that this argument has been buried. Just read the links Wakas has provided or do a search.
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers."
"And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy."
"And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission;"
"And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!"
-
Says Leyna from free-minds.org
For how long have you studied hadeeth to come with this conclusion ?
See how you don't know your subject.
I thought I was recognizing the all-too-familiar pattern in your posts, but was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to have a serious exchange of thoughts with you. But sadly it is very obvious that you are not willing to answer questions and engage in an honest, respectful discussion. All you are doing is mocking, resorting to childish game playing and answering questions with new questions which, quite frankly, is very rude.
None of this is new, there are countless people like you out there, they are only interested in establishing their own sense of superiority. I will never understand why your likes keep coming here and repeating the same old same old.
Trying to get through to you or get you to actually provide sound arguments is a waste of time.
-
Did Luqman recieved the Quran too ? No !
In which book is the story of Lugman and the wisdom; shall I kill my dog??
Hadith - Muslim, narrated Maymunah
One morning Allah's Messenger was silent with grief. Maymunah said Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger saidGabriel had promised me that he would meet me last night, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises; and Allah's Messenger spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He gave an order and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it on the place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. So the very next morning he commanded the dogs to be killed. He announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog used for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens). -
Man this is more than ireelevant because the word hikma is not an attribute of the Quran alone, if I follow your reasoning ones must stop using this word because it has been said about the quran ?
What reasoning was that, exactly? The point made was that quran and hikmah are so deliberately combined in so many verses that your separating them as two separate things in the said verse is an inconsistency in your own reading. You are dividing that which Allah has joined.
Did Luqman recieved the Quran too ? No !
So it must mean he received Prophet Muhammad's sunnah?
This would be relevant if god have said ; He has revealed to you the Scripture AND the Scripture Wisdom. So try again.
I don't think I need to try again given that the point was proven and you were unable to refute it. Are salawat and salat two separate things that need to be guarded? Why is there an AND in between them? And if you can answer that question, your inconsistent reading will be exposed. So it's better to dismiss the point altogether, just like you've done already.
Or two seperate things that are indivisible.
Indivisible eh?
He revealed unto you from what ? from the scripture and the wisdom, why ? to exhort you with it "bihi".
What is 'it'? That was my question, you've simply repeated the verse. If 'it' was the quran and prophetic sunnah, it should say 'them' not 'it'. Bihum could have been used along with the 'min'.
So although you were suggesting before that the quran and sunnah are indivisible, they still need to be separated, but then again they are referred to as 'it'. The irregularities are clear to those who actually read the quran with care as a divine book.
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers."
"And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy."
"And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission;"
"And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!"
Thank you. No "quran wa sunnat e rasoolullah"? Where is that verse?
-
But sadly it is very obvious that you are not willing to answer questions and engage in an honest, respectful discussion. All you are doing is mocking, resorting to childish game playing and answering questions with new questions which, quite frankly, is very rude.
Must be all that 'hikmah' he's following. hmm
-
In which book is the story of Lugman and the wisdom; shall I kill my dog??
Hadith - Muslim, narrated Maymunah
One morning Allah's Messenger was silent with grief. Maymunah said Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger saidGabriel had promised me that he would meet me last night, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises; and Allah's Messenger spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He gave an order and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it on the place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. So the very next morning he commanded the dogs to be killed. He announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog used for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).Of course not, Noon, all that you must do is provide big gardens (or any other kind of extensive fields) for your dog, that's all.
-
Salaam, nice build
So you don't follow hadeeth because of a cultural thing ?
Many don't follow islam at all because of cultural thing, what makes you different from them ? You obey the quran and don't obey the words of the prophet while it is clearly said in the quran
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers."
"And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy."
"And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission;"
"And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!"
and remember that you won't follow islam without beign tested, Allah said
"Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested? We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false." (292-3)People have to change themselves to suit you and not the opposite, you are the one who's on the true path !
Salaam Badr
I follow hadith and prophet Muhammed's sunnah. I just don't need to go outside the Quran to find them. Like Alen said, I only need one book to understand. If you need more guidance, by all means, follow extra-Quran hadith.
Or if you want, you could actually ask a Quran aloner how he/she believes instead of saying they are wrong, proving your point by throwing verses around. Ask us how we are able to unite with cultural and society differences, that is something ortodox islam has not been able to solve. Ask us how we see you and what we think about you. Ask us why we can call eachother brothers and sisters, eventhough we do not agree fully with eachother.
I would never ask anyone to change to suit me, that is just ridicilous. I am on the path I believe is true, I would never tell anyone my path is the only one.
I got another thing you might want to take a second to ponder on How come ortodox muslims are the only ones having a problem letting people follow the Quran?
Sorry for the harsh tone, Badr. Please don't think I am annoyed or anything.
-
Salam,
The "obey God and obey the messenger" as an argument to look for external sources outside the Quran and then claim that "God said so" is misrepresentation at best.
For, by simply observing all other verses that deal with the same subject, we find the answer as clear as day That the 2 commands are in-fact 1 in the same!
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
-
It is very arrogant to pretend understand the quran without the prophet's or the scholars explanations. I wish you can one day understand it in arabic because it is alot more powerful.
And you think that it is not arrogant to claim that God could not make his statements clear for those who use their reasoning faculties. And it is not arrogant to think that God could not provide details for his instructions. And that the Jewish people/scholars who asked for more explanation from the prophet (Musa) about the color of the cow, its age, etc. were doing great job in understanding God's message in Torah!
Let me continue your "arrogant" excuse for not following the Quran alone
It is very arrogant to pretend understand the prophet without the scholars' explanations. I wish you can one day understand it in arabic because it is alot more powerful!
It is very arrogant to pretend understand the scholars' explanations of the prophet's explanation without semi-scholars. I wish you can one day understand it in arabic because it is alot more powerful!
It is very arrogant to pretend understand the scholars' explanations of the prophet's explanations without being a scholar. I wish you can one day understand it in arabic because it is alot more powerful!
It is very arrogant to pretend understand the semi-scholars' explanation without knowing which sect's semi-scholars are the real semi-scholars. I wish you can one day understand it in arabic because it is alot more powerful!
I wish you could understand Arabic as much as Abu Jahl and Walid bin Mugiyre, because it is alot more powerful!
;;;;;;;;
Brother Badr, would the prophet complain about people for not following the scholars or semi-scholars or semi-semi-scholars of a particular sect? Or would he complain about people like you who arrogate themselves by rejecting dozens of verses asserting that the Quran is
MUBIN
TAMMAT
TIBYAN li kulli shay
MUFASSAL
HUDAPeace
-
Peace brother layth
Salam,
The "obey God and obey the messenger" as an argument to look for external sources outside the Quran and then claim that "God said so" is misrepresentation at best.
For, by simply observing all other verses that deal with the same subject, we find the answer as clear as day That the 2 commands are in-fact 1 in the same!
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
If the statement "obey God and obey the messenger " are one in the same, what is the wisdom behind joining them using a conjunction 'and'?
480 is valid based on the fact that the merciful lord Has delagated authourity of full jurisdiction to the prophet and furthermore the prophet judge by the law of the most high.
Peace
ZUBAIRUS
-
The problem with you SECTARIANS is that you think the prophet is still alive and that you are still living in seventh century. That is why you still arguing about wiping you buts with odd or even number of stones. That you must eat with your right hand and that eating with your left hand is satanic. That you should step into the outhouse with your left foot first and exit it with your right foot. That you should perform a certain outhouse entry DU?AA?. That you should wear your right shoe first. That you must say ALHAMDULILLAAH when you sneeze. That you should walk in front your women and they must walk behind you. That ?tens of thousands of more nonsense jokes. The prophet neither said/did nor advocated none the above fanatical thoughts at all and that these jokes were started to be written down 260 years after his death. I wonder when you guys want to wake up and see the real world existing outside of your crooked minds.
Again and again, as Muslims we are not to follow the dead. Dead man is dead, following the dead is to die and follow in his footsteps to the grave. That is the true following.
On the other hand, The Qur?aan is eternal. It is the words of The Eternal Living GOD. GOD is the only ABSOLUTE source of guidance. Messengers are all the instruments of GOD in relaying His message to his servants. They are all righteous but fallible ordinary humans. The only HOLY and INFALLIBLE is GOD Himself. We are not to fall for any other nonsense no matter what. The Qur?aan is the only source of guidance, PERIOD. We must stick with It and humbly beg GOD for guidance.
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/qhi/qhi.html
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace all
Peace brother layth
If the statement "obey God and obey the messenger " are one in the same, what is the wisdom behind joining them using a conjunction 'and'?480 is valid based on the fact that the merciful lord Has delagated authourity of full jurisdiction to the prophet and furthermore the prophet judge by the law of the most high.
Peace
ZUBAIRUS
I found it necessary making this correction after reading the post of Khalil though not addressed to me.
THE MERCIFUL LORD HAD DELEGATED AUTHOURITY OF FULL JURISDICTION TO THE PROPHET AND FURTHERMORE THE PROPHET JUDGED BY THE LAW OF THE MOST HIGH.
However my question to brother layth still remain a question .
ZUBAIRUS
-
God authority
Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. (Quran 2130)
He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Apostle from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error, (623)
- a half dozen verses that associate the book and the wisdom.
How does that equal following hadith fabricators. How are you getting what the prophet taught from bukhari when clearly you admit you don't get it from the Quran. How do you know hadith is complete? Who explains the hadiths? .... Oh that would be those preimum rate telephone numbers Islamic tv channels.
If the Quran is not enough for you then nothing will be. You might as well put a sticker on you forehead saying, I have no guidance please take advantage of me.
Let me try an analogy on you.
Imagine your father gave you a recipe with instructions written down on how to make the perfect cake and said, "this is the complete thing and you need nothing else. I know the past and the future. Follow this and you will get a perfect cake every time".
Centuries later you find your great great grand childern following a completely different recipe, giving the reason that Mr X saw your father making the cake this way and Mr Y saw your father making the cake that way.
Mr X and Y are scholars so they must be right.How would your father feel?
-
How does that equal following hadith fabricators. How are you getting what the prophet taught from bukhari when clearly you admit you don't get it from the Quran. How do you know hadith is complete? Who explains the hadiths? .... Oh that would be those preimum rate telephone numbers Islamic tv channels.
If the Quran is not enough for you then nothing will be. You might as well put a sticker on you forehead saying, I have no guidance please take advantage of me.
well you dont seem like you expect a real answer so i skip.
Let me try an analogy on you.
Imagine your father gave you a recipe with instructions written down on how to make the perfect cake and said, "this is the complete thing and you need nothing else. I know the past and the future. Follow this and you will get a perfect cake every time".
Centuries later you find your great great grand childern following a completely different recipe, giving the reason that Mr X saw your father making the cake this way and Mr Y saw your father making the cake that way.
Mr X and Y are scholars so they must be right.How would your father feel?
hungry
-
I thought I was recognizing the all-too-familiar pattern in your posts, but was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to have a serious exchange of thoughts with you. But sadly it is very obvious that you are not willing to answer questions and engage in an honest, respectful discussion. All you are doing is mocking, resorting to childish game playing and answering questions with new questions which, quite frankly, is very rude.
this is not true i answered all the questions adressed to me.
None of this is new, there are countless people like you out there, they are only interested in establishing their own sense of superiority. I will never understand why your likes keep coming here and repeating the same old same old.
"people like me" ?
Trying to get through to you or get you to actually provide sound arguments is a waste of time.
so dont waste your time.
how can i take "people like you" seriously? you have no knowledge on the subject, who cares if you agree or not with such or such scholar ? you're comparing an elephant to a bug. come back in 20 years.
-
Badr,
Your tone in this thread has been a bit much. There's really no need for the constant sarcasm and condescending remarks.
Please show a little more discretion. Thank you.
-
What reasoning was that, exactly? The point made was that quran and hikmah are so deliberately combined in so many verses that your separating them as two separate things in the said verse is an inconsistency in your own reading. You are dividing that which Allah has joined.
you are twisting what he have said.
So it must mean he received Prophet Muhammad's sunnah?
even if i feel your sarcasm i'll answer seriously ;
muhammad recieved the quran (wich is indeed wise) but also the wisdom to speak and act by the inspiration of god, wich puts his deeds and sayins on the level of jurisprudence when it comes to practice the islam. the collection of these deeds and sayins is called sunna.I don't think I need to try again given that the point was proven and you were unable to refute it. Are salawat and salat two separate things that need to be guarded? Why is there an AND in between them? And if you can answer that question, your inconsistent reading will be exposed. So it's better to dismiss the point altogether, just like you've done already.
because you have to understand "and especially the middle prayer".
Indivisible eh?
yep.
What is 'it'? That was my question, you've simply repeated the verse. If 'it' was the quran and prophetic sunnah, it should say 'them' not 'it'. Bihum could have been used along with the 'min'.
theres no need to name the two if they were the same thing.
So although you were suggesting before that the quran and sunnah are indivisible, they still need to be separated, but then again they are referred to as 'it'. The irregularities are clear to those who actually read the quran with care as a divine book.
you see irragularities, for me is cristal clear.
Thank you. No "quran wa sunnat e rasoolullah"? Where is that verse?
it's the same as the sunna is the acts and sayings of the prophet, this is what you must obey with the quran.
-
I would never ask anyone to change to suit me, that is just ridicilous. I am on the path I believe is true, I would never tell anyone my path is the only one.
Salaam Emil
"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam" (319)
so theres only one path.
I got another thing you might want to take a second to ponder on How come ortodox muslims are the only ones having a problem letting people follow the Quran?
they dont, theres 1,5 billion muslims in the world and 90% of them are ortodox muslims alhamdulillah. and theres more to come insha allah.
how much do you think is the percentage of the "quranists"?
-
Salam,
The "obey God and obey the messenger" as an argument to look for external sources outside the Quran and then claim that "God said so" is misrepresentation at best.
For, by simply observing all other verses that deal with the same subject, we find the answer as clear as day That the 2 commands are in-fact 1 in the same!
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
you dont have to read between the line, it's not a riddle. the message is "obey God and the messenger".
as for 480, ---> and by not obeying the messenger you are not obeying god.
