What does God obtain from creation?
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Sara said whats the point of the test when he knows the result?
I totally agree.
But ,i think, he doesn't know the results ,thats the reason of the tests.
Thanks.
Salaams all.to me, this world is not a "test" but a "chance" of redemption. Remember what GOd said when we took is offer, we were already transgressing(3372)
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Okay... I couldn't resist! lol
Sara said whats the point of the test when he knows the result?
I totally agree.
But ,i think, he doesn't know the results ,thats the reason of the tests.
"I had a dog, and his name was - BINGO!" (Oh... that means I agree with mz!)Life is not a "test", per se. Not from Allah's perspective.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but life is a test for us. I will post some verses supporting what mz's post in it's entirety. Theres 2 MAJOR points here... watch...-
And God will test those who believe and He will destroy the rejecters.
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Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
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....God will test what is in your chests and bring out what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable as to what is in the chests.
and ofcourse I posted this earlier...
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Did the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? without being put to the test?
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While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.
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And We will test you until We know those who strive among you and those who are patient. And We will bring out your qualities.
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The One who created death and life to test you. Which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
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We have created the human from drops of semen to test him, so We made him hear and see.
More "test" verses...
... you'll notice different types of tests for different people (including messengers) all through the course of life.
I think mz said what a lot of people here are 'afraid' to say. I noticed the reserve also on another thread just created.
Peace be with you all.
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Peace Zein,
That is quite quite interesting...but what do you think of the limitations it places on God then...that means God doesn't know all, He needs to carry out tests to know. Hoping you can clarify this point a bit please.
Could it be that God would know that we know who are truthful and who are liars? Seeing as how the test is for our benefit?
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Salaam Nadia,
Please note - I used very little of my words in this post. I'm glad you saw what I was trying to convey with the verses. Some find difficulty, not because they don't understand the verses, but perhaps because it goes against their 'pre-ordained' beliefs?
There's no limitation on God. We can't even fathom simple things... and we "think" this is a limitation? Like neo's post on the other thread, there's many many possibilities, there's many routes we could take. God knows them all, God knows us more than we know ourselves, God knows what's in our chests... you know the deal. So I see no limitation. He doesn't "need" to carry out tests or so anything. All of this is in our benefit.
I hope I didn't make it more confusing. If I did, stick to the verses! ops
Could it be that God would know that we know who are truthful and who are liars?
I'm not quite sure what you mean.Anybody here ever watched a movie called - Defending Your Life? Not exactly what we're dealing with here, but it's quite interesting to see different thoughts on the subject, of why we're here, and what happens next! (True story! twisted )
Peace
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Peace Zein,
Just a lil bit ) but i still would like to know something, iyo, if you please..
Okay, if we say God doesn't know the results of the tests, then it means God doesn't know something? If we say God knows, before we know everything about us doesn't quite address the point that God is all knowing yet He doesn't know something.
By all knowing, it means He knows all right? So if we say God doesn't know something, like the results of the tests, then God wouldn't be all knowing would He? We can't take that away by saying but He'll know before we do because at some point in our time, there will be a point where God doesn't know...
Yes, the favors and blessings of God we can't fathom all, but that doesn't mean we can't see and appreciate some? And also that we can't understand somethings, very basic things about what it's all about? Also as per verse 5922 God knows ALL seen and unseen...not knowing something would contradict Him being All knowing...
So accordingly we either have two things here...
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God knows all
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God doesn't know all/somethings
We can't say both, we have to choose one.
I guess before evn going further we have to clarify whether God knows ALL and by that i mean ALL and there is no point in time that He does not know...or if God does not know ALL (e.g results of the tests)
Let's discuss this, we discussed the same topic for hours today and would be great to hear your point of view...the post above really brought something different to the pov's...
Nadia
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Peace Zein,
Also by the way i checked the different translations and they seem to be more in tune with distinguishing between the two sets for our benefit rather than saying God does not know the results...
3141
Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing Those that resist Faith.3142
Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?292
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?293
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.
And another verse that is pretty interesting acc to this context
2911
And Allah most certainly knows those who believe, and as certainly those who are Hypocrites.I found khalifa's translations better but it wasnt on the search engine that i usually use except in places, i'll check that when i have the time...
The above verses seem to be saying, imo, that this test is for our benefit rather than God knowing after or during...i can't seem to get that line of thought from the verses that this test is for God to know who are truthful and who are liars...
Looking forward to more clarification...
Nadia
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Salaam Nadia,
293 is what it is, even in the translation you provided. "...God must distinguish..."
Now, it's not just black and white, there are millions of colors in between. And thats just us humans. You're looking at it as, in this case, God knows all, in the other, He doesn't. God IS All-Knowing. I don't find any contradiction here. Again, look at the verses.... what are they telling you? Forget what zein says! ) This is a test. To simplify it greatly, we pass, we fail. God knows all our routes, all our intentions, our strengths and weaknesses. From that we get a SIMPLE test. We fail, fine, we're still alive, He guides us. Remember, we asked for this. And when we die, and when we're resurrected, the scales come out. Again, you know this, it's not that simple.
Is this a limitation?... I don't think so. But it is what it is.
2911 is a confirmation of what I'm talking about. He knows us. Now, look at a part of this verse.
- ....God will test what is in your chests and bring out what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable as to what is in the chests.
All this is for our benefit. But we're too arrogant, transgressing... from before we came here, like SHM said.
This is what I think.
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Peace Zein,
Thank you for the clarification!
I agree that the test is for US to know...but how we can reconcile that to a God that would not know is just not logical if God is all knowing.
So in effect He must distinguish for our benefit so that WE know and that ties in with the plan...mutually advantageous to both...
Peace to you!
Nadia.
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Hello Sara,
I like your questions.
"What does God obtain from creation?
"If He doesn't get anything from us, then why create us?"
"Marie, yes, we are to serve Him, but does God NEED our service?"
"When God needs company, He creates the heavens and the earth, and people,
and makes them suffer? And, ultimately, make them burn in hellfire?
Because He's.....lonely?""I do not understand why The God would create human beings,
make them suffer, and then roast them in hellfire....all because He's lonely.""He didn't create us without our consent."
"What was keeping God company before He became lonely? Or was He always lonely?"
These questions are fundamental and profound.
They highlight the inherent problems associated with the Omniscient, Omnipotent and a Benevolent God. But these are the type of questions that start us off in your search for the understanding of the Divine.Some other possible answers
Before God created the Universe, He was in an infinite contemplation of himself.
God was a hidden treasure and He wanted to be known so he created the Universe
so that He could be known.But the truth is no one can answer these questions for you because no one has the answer to these questions.
Only a direct encounter with the divine like prophets and the mystics will tell you the validity of these questions.
Therefore, ultimately, you have to arrive at the answers all by yourself.
Others can only guide you; others can only show you the way and perhaps others can provide you with a raft, but you will have to steer this raft all by yourself to the "furthest" shore.But I think Tay has touched on something that is important and that is Love.
God created the Universe and all that is in it in act of Pure Love.
And it is through Love that you can glimpse God.Love is never easy to understand. In fact Love is the hardest thing in the world.
If you ever understand love then perhaps you will understand something of the infinite God too.Like to hear more from you on this and others?
I think it is these types of discussions that allow us to expand our mind and gain little more understanding of the Divine.
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What does God attain from our creation?
002.030 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
Even the angels don't know the reason behind our creation, how could we?
Isn't everything preordained?
010.065 Let not their speech grieve thee for all power and honour belong to Allah It is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).
032.005 He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
022.047 Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
You ever heard of relativity of time? I think the answer to this question lies in it. Allah knows whether we are destined for hell or heaven because "a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning." That's why the Quran contains some conversations among for instance dwellers of the hell with the ones in heaven in the PAST tense.
We HAVE to follow God's rules. If we don't, we are FORCED to go to hell. We have no choice, we MUST follow God.
Is it that hard to submit to God when Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion (1690). If yes then go on disobey & live in sin. See it's your choice?
Then what's the point of making people suffer?
People wouldn't suffer if they obeyed the laws of Allah.
Peace...
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- Hello born-again,
Scripture should only be a guide to understanding God. It should not be taken as the Absolute Truth. Every Scripture is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE truth.
Scripture is always an individual?s interpretation of his encounter with the Divine and therefore can never be the Ultimate Truth. The encounter with the divine is never a logical encounter because God is beyond reason. But individuals have tried to ?rationalise? this experience with the limited capabilities of human language.
Your scriptural replies, does not answer Sara?s questions fully and they never will but discussions like this allows us to think, develop and refine our understanding of the Divine. Rational discussion about God is just a beginning in the understanding the divine.
And the question still remains ? if everything is preordained then what is the point of it all? What does God gain from this pointless exercise?
There must be a better answer to these questions from the ones I have heard so far?relativity? Yes I have heard of it. But that is to do with physics and not relevant to a God that is beyond time?
- Hello Marie
But Marie, why should we submit? I find the submission a little harsh and cruel. We submit to the Rule of the Tyrant because we are weak and powerless. If we had a choice then we would not submit. Tyrants will always have the power to make us submit but they can never make us love them. You are not suggesting that God is a tyrant? Obviously not, that would be too ?anthromorphic? understanding of the Divine. And I don?t like this kind of understanding, because its put God in the position of the oppressor. We need to develop more intuitive and imaginative understanding of God?
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But Marie, why should we submit?
Indeed the System approved by Allah is Al-Islam (Submission to His Will). (319)
The God's sytem/deen is well detailled in the light of the Reading which is a guide for those who choose to live in harmony with His deen al-islam
You have always the choice to follown the god's sytem or other man-made sytems.
You may be interested by these threads
What is "islam" in english?Is their really a religion called "islam"?
Why Is Islam The Only True Deen? By Parwez
Your understanding of Islam
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Hello Marie,
Thanks for these links.
They don't answer my questions, neither does it answer Sara's,
because I can't see how Koran be the Absolute Truth for mankind for all time. It is an one individual's attempt to understand the Divine. And stretching the meaning of Islam is not helpful either. Why should we submit? we can't we love?Surely there is an infinite way of understanding the infinite God? To say Islam is the True and only deen acceptable to God is unfair and also it limits God's infinite possibility of revalations to individuals throughout history.
But the question still remains if everything is preordained then what is the point of it all? What does God gain by this pointless exercise?
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Allah knows whether we are destined for hell or heaven because "a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning."
I don't understand what you mean.. can you clarify?
I mean He knows the future because time goes 1000 times faster in the sight of Him. He knows how you're going to die, whether you're going to end up in Hell or Heaven, everything.
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Peace LoteTree,
Thank you for the vote of confidence. I agree with your thoughts.
I must say, this past year has been spiritually tumultuous. It's been a blessing and a curse. All the reading, and analyzing, and debating, and explaining, and no closer to the truth than I was 10 years ago. In fact, the only thing I can say positively without a trace of doubt is "God is love".
Whenever I feel confused intellectually with all the rationalizing and justifications, I return my focus on those that are dear to me and there it is, staring me in the face, the indescribable answer - Love.
Love is the glue that holds it all together. Those whose lives are filled with love are happy, spreading more love. Those whose lives lack love are unhappy, sifting for answers from without.
I realize there's no need to explain it, we just need to recognize it.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Hello Tay,
I too have struggled with God and religion for years
and years and I am still no where near to understanding
any of it. But I was so glad to hear that you have come to the same
conclusion as I have, that is "God is Love".I can't claim that I understand love fully yet,
but I have so far glimpsed the hazy outline of its
immense power and therefore I agree with you
that we dont need to "explain" love but recongnize it.And like you, when I am lost in the confusion of rationality,
discussions and debates, my focus always returns to Love
because Love for me is the most Important Principle in the Universe.
And I fully agree with you that people who have love in their life
are happy and those that don't are unhappy.I believe that only through love that we can begin
to explain Sara's questions, because"Love seeketh not itself to please"
The Universe is an experssion of God's love
and it is through love that will understand God.For me, Hell is the absence of God's love from my life
and my Universe and Paradise is the presence of God's love.I think Sara is a courageous individual to ask these questions.
They are important and profound and they need to be asked.
Some have said these are "Dangerous" questions.
And some have told Sara that she should have come to "terms"
with it before she came to the Koran Alone belief.
Some even have said these are "foolish" questions.How can asking questions be "Dangerous"?
Why should coming to a Koran Alone belief
stop you asking these questions?How these questions be in any way foolish?
This is a "FREE MINDS" forum is it not?
How can it be "Free Minds" if some questions
are deemed dangerous?I think we need to exhaust all rational thinking before we can
have an insight into God's love.... -
Peace Lote Tree,
I must say it's refreshing to leave the bounds of rational thought and venture into the essence of spirituality. Thanks for bringing this energy into the forum, as we always need to maintain a balanced view.
I agree with all your points regarding love.
as for Sara, she is definitely courageous, and this from a 16 year-old.
You stated,
Some have said these are "Dangerous" questions.
And some have told Sara that she should have come to "terms"
with it before she came to the Koran Alone belief.
Some even have said these are "foolish" questions.This is true. But knowing these folks for some time now, I can guess that these were impulsive reactions to difficult questions- deflection, if you will.
How can asking questions be "Dangerous"? Why should coming to a Koran Alone belief stop you asking these questions? How these questions be in any way foolish? This is a "FREE MINDS" forum is it not?
How can it be "Free Minds" if some questions
are deemed dangerous?I understand your disappointment. At face value, I would share your sentiment, but, as I stated, a little insight paints a different picture. In all, this is by far the bravest, most tolerant and open-minded forum I've found online. Give it a little time and you'll fall in love to )
I think we need to exhaust all rational thinking before we can
have an insight into God's love....Agreed.
"Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.
When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. "
-Khalil Gibran, "The Prophet"
Peace,
Tay