What does God obtain from creation?

Tay

Peace Wakas,

I've read through the entire link, and the links from the link, and still no answer to "what does God obtain from creation?".

To say that God obtains truth, is, in my opinion, insinuating that God does not know the truth. The paradox of "Can God create a stone that even He cannot lift?" comes to mind. I smell a new thread wink

Anyhow, in my opinion, God does not obtain from Creation. Creation is simply the consequential manifestation of infinite love.

Peace Noor,

You stated,

Our creation is meant for the truth to prevail

To prevail over what?

May peace be upon you all,
Tay

Wakas

peace be upon you Tay,

To say that God obtains truth, is, in my opinion, insinuating that God does not know the truth.

This aspect of your question was covered here

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1476

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=806

Wakas

jonny_k

Salam,
GOD says in the Quran in no uncertain terms tht He created nothing without a purpose. I believe tht the purpose behind every creation of GOD is 2 test His former creation. Take angels 4 example. Since we cannot logically imagine a 1st creation created by GOD, i think tht the creation began at a pt in infinity. Now thts the prob tht the infinity pt can never be understood by any finite beings including us so it is useless 2 argue/debate abt it. Hence nothing is ever created without purpose. GOD is in no need 4 any of His creation. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Hello Idris

you wrote
"I heard a view I thought was pretty good a while back, it was something like creation is merely a manifestation of God's attribute as The Creator, not sure if that helps but I've stuck with that position for awhile, it makes sense to me"

But the scripture says God "created" the Universe and all that is in it
out of "nothing". It does not say Universe is a "manifestation" of God as The Creator. So what does God obtain from this creation?

Hello Tay,

You wrote that "Creation is simply the consequential manifestation of infinite love". I like that idea and I would also like to add that "Creativity" is always an act of love.

Hello Danish,

you wrote
"That's a tough question, friend. I can only speak for myself."

Yes you are right Danish, it is a very TOUGH question and just like Sara, I like asking very tough questions! -).

I believe that thinking about these type of hard questions allows us to develop and refine our own understanding of Divinity. This type of question are like the Zen "Quans", the unsolvable riddles, that Zen master's give to their pupils to "wean" them of ordinary thought processes, so that they may be able glimpse a higher degree of awareness of reality.

Regards,

Tay

Peace Wakas,

Forgive me, but again, I see no corroborration for the statement that God obtains truth from mankind. Many of the posts were excellent in establishing the reasons for human existence, as well as drawing a better understanding of the relationship between man and God, but no where did I see evidence to answer the question, in question.

Perhaps you can copy and paste what you think I should be paying attention to?

Thanks,
Tay

Tay

Peace Idmkhizar,

You stated

I believe tht the purpose behind every creation of GOD is 2 test His former creation. Take angels 4 example...

Very interesting point you've brought up. So you believe that part of the reason for our creation was to test the angels?

Peace,
Tay

jonny_k

Peace Idmkhizar,

You stated

I believe tht the purpose behind every creation of GOD is 2 test His former creation. Take angels 4 example...

Very interesting point you've brought up. So you believe that part of the reason for our creation was to test the angels?

Peace,
Tay

Khi- Yes. GOD Bless!

Wakas

peace be upon you Tay,

Let me clarify

The God knows the outcome of your life (lets call this the theoretical determination, theoretical to us, but fact to The God, as The God is All Knowing)

The God = The Just

thus...

The God would not sentence you on a theoretical (to you) because I am extremely confident you would argue that you haven't even done anything bad yet! (if the sentence was bad/hell) In other words, its not been shown/proven to you. Hence this life.
It is a test or one can see it as an accumulation of the proof, a self-testimony.

Therefore, the test MUST be taken. It

is interesting to note that in the world today, there is no way
of determining one's ability (from a group of people) at a subject
without a form of test. Please think about this concept, it is
so simple but very interesting. If you can think of a viable
alternative to distinguish one's ability at a subject without
a type of test, then please let me know.

Once you establish the need for a test, a test must be created, hence the creation. The reading confirms this, in my opinion.

If you are talking about creation prior to our life here (i.e. what we see around us) then I do not have the answer to your question, i.e. why create anything in the 1st place. Cant say I've pondered on it that much, perhaps I will in the future. I cant recall any ayatin/signs discussing this point, I may be wrong though. If I were to give you my initial thoughts, I think it may have something to do with us being part of the whole.

Wakas

Tay

Peace Wakas,

Thanks for the effort. I do understand and apprectiate the "test" explanation. It does a fair job of explaining the "why do we we exist" question. However, it does not answer the question "What does God obtain from creation", in my opinion.

Again, I feel this question is loaded as I don't think we can answer this question in concrete terms, or metaphorically. I think the answer has to do with the multiplying nature of love.

If I were to give you my initial thoughts, I think it may have something to do with us being part of the whole.

I think so too.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

SALAAM SARA,

I went through the whole discussion on this interesting topic and the following is my humble attempt to shed some light on your intriguing questions. However only Allah knows the truth, may He bless us and guide us all.

No one except Allah knows why he really created us and what He gets out of it, but one thing is certain that Allah has not created anything just for entertainment or play. He was not lonely or getting bored !!

2117 And We did not create the heavens and the Earth and what is between them for entertainment.
4437 And We have not created the heavens and the Earth, and everything between them, for mere play.

Allah's act of creation most probably has something to do with the following

LOVE

557 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him
1998 Those who believe and do good works, the Almighty will bestow them with love

TRUTH

106 He is the One who made the sun to emit light, and the moon to reflect it, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth
1586 And We have not created the heavens and the Earth and what is in between except with the truth.
4438 We did not create them except with the truth, but most of them do not know.
463 We did not create the heavens and the Earth, and everything between them except with truth, and for an appointed time

SERVING HIM BY ESTABLISHING LOVE AND TRUTH ON EARTH

5157 I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.
221 O people, serve your Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be righteous.

THE WILLFULL REUNION OF THE "PART" WITH THE "WHOLE"

1046 Losers are those who denied meeting God, and they were not guided.
133 He manages all affairs, and He details the signs so that you will be aware of the meeting with your Lord.
18106 So whoever looks forward to meeting his Lord, then let him do good works and not set up any partner in the service of his Lord."
2651 They said "There is no worry, for we are all returning to our Lord."
847 O man, you will be returning to your Lord with your actions and meeting Him.

Contrary to what some people here on the forum believe, ALLAH KNOWS EVERYTHING

2255 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes.
330 He knows what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; and God is capable of all things.
5100 God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.
2269 Did you not know that God knows what is in the heavens and the Earth? All is in a record. All that for God is easy.
3352 God knows what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate

Just because Allah knows what is going to happen in the future and that some of us will end up in Hell DOES NOT MEAN HE FORCED IT UPON US

479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself.

The analogy is that of a TIME TRAVELLER who travels to the future and sees what is going to happen and then comes back to the present and records everything that is going to happen in the future. THERE ARE NO LIMITATIONS OF TIME FOR ALLAH. He can see the past, present and future at the same time and knows what is going to happen. That does not mean that he forced those things to happen.

After our creation we were living in heaven peacefully IN OUR FIRST LIFE and our Lord used to communicate with us. The only thing forbidden was to eat from "the tree" and Allah gave us fair warning

7173 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
5666 You have come to know about the first creation. If only you would remember.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."

Everything was fine until Iblis deceived us and we disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree with our own free will. As soon as we did that it caused irreversible changes in us. Before that our soul was visible to us but our physical body/ego/sin was hidden from us. After eating from the tree our body/ego became visible and our soul became invisible, like on Earth here and we became mortal and our physical desires like hunger, sleep, excretion etc. manifested. We thereafter realized our folly and repented and Allah forgave us but because we had caused irreversible changes in ourselves we suffered its consequences and died ! We were then reborn on Earth and are here because of OUR CHOICE and not because we were FORCED. We did it to ourselves.

This life on Earth is our SECOND AND FINAL CHANCE to redeem ourselves and go back to our original abode by accepting our Creator alone and being righteous and rejecting falsehood. Allah out of His Mercy even sent us Messengers and His Words for our guidance, to make it easier for us to find the truth. Those of us who will make the same mistake of being deceived by Iblis/ego again and rejecting the truth will have to suffer the consequences and that will be OUR CHOICE. When you say that some of us will suffer just because God created us and because of that we are forced to follow Him or forced to go to Hell, that is simply not true. We were supposed to be in heaven after we were created and we are suffering only because WE CHOSE TO FOLLOW OUR EGO and disobey the Creator. It is our fault and not that of the Creator. Do you really think that the "WHOLE" wants its "PART" to suffer ??

Following are the signs detailing this story

719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
720 But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their sin which was kept from them; and he said "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal."
721 And he swore to them "I am giving good advice."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
723 They said "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, then we will be of the losers!"
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
725 He said "In it you will live and in it you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."

20113 And We had made a pledge to Adam from before, but he forgot, and We did not find in him the will power.
20114 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." They all submitted except for Satan, he refused.
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."
20116 "You will have in it that you will not go hungry nor need clothes."
20117 "And you will have in it that you will not go thirsty nor suffer from heat."
20118 But the devil whispered to him, he said "O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?"
20119 So they both ate from it, and their sin became apparent for them, and they began to place leaves on themselves from the paradise. Adam had disobeyed his Lord, and had gone astray.
20120 Then his Lord recalled him, and He forgave him and gave guidance to him.
20121 He said "Descend from this, all of you, for you are enemies to one another. So, when My guidance comes to you;"
20122 "Then, whoever follows My guidance, he will not go astray nor suffer."
20123 "And whoever turns away from My remembrance, then he will have a miserable life, and We will raise him blind on the Day of Resurrection."

When we will die now it will be our SECOND death after our SECOND life, and if we follow the false promises of Iblis and reject the straight path again then it will be too late. We will suffer in the Hereafter and Iblis will mock us !! and it will be all our fault and our choice

1425 And the devil said when the matter was complete "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."

4011 They will Say "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

The God created man and the covered ones(jinn) to SERVE Him. The God uses creation for experience. Without creation there is nothing. Imagine being deep in the ocean where there is total darkness. The God created experience through the creation. Thats why we are given eyes , ears, and all of our senses. It is the SEER who sees, and the HEARER who hears, through mankind.

Our job is to realize this purpose and SERVE the God by being righteous so that the divine energy(ruh ul qudus) can grow in us and we can manifest the God more and more. This was the example of Isa, son of Mary whom we are told we must all be like before death.

unknownuser

Hello Idolfree,

You have not answered our previous questions. If God needs us to have experience then he must lack something? If he lacks something then he would not be perfect will he?

What does God obtain from creation? only love seems to answer this question, for "Love seeketh itself not to please..."

Regards,

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Lote Tree,

You have not answered our previous questions. If God needs us to have experience then he must lack something? If he lacks something then he would not be perfect will he?

What does God obtain from creation? only love seems to answer this question, for "Love seeketh itself not to please..."

So does the God lack love?

We are PART OF the God, just like the human eyeballs SERVE the human to experience sight, we are the physical manifestations of the God that SERVE the experience.

neo

Hello Idolfree,

You have not answered our previous questions. If God needs us to have experience then he must lack something? If he lacks something then he would not be perfect will he?

What does God obtain from creation? only love seems to answer this question, for "Love seeketh itself not to please..."

Regards,

I think I've said this before, but this line of questionning is inherently flawed because humans can never understand god's will. Having said that, god 'needing' anything is a contradiction of his perfection. Also, god 'obtaining' love from creation also implies a fulfillment of sorts. 'Love' doesn't answer nor address this question in any way, just puts you in the midst of another loop of questioning.

unknownuser

Also, god 'obtaining' love from creation also implies a fulfillment of sorts. 'Love' doesn't answer nor address this question in any way, just puts you in the midst of another loop of questioning.

I said only love seems to answer this question. God does not obtain love from creation but Creation is an expression of God's Love for "Love seeketh not itself to please. Love is sufficient unto Love". This is perhaps a better answer from the ones I have heard so far, better than God using us to have Experience. God does not lack love. Creation is an expression of God' love...

Regards.

neo

I said only love seems to answer this question. God does not obtain love from creation but Creation is an expression of God's Love for "Love seeketh not itself to please. Love is sufficient unto Love". This is perhaps a better answer from the ones I have heard so far, better than God using us to have Experience. God does not lack love. Creation is an expression of God' love...

Regards.

By this notion, what stops me from assuming that creation is an expression of god's hate? Or god's apathy?

unknownuser

Good question is universe an expression of God's hate or apathy? Which do you think is true?

Regards,

Tay

Peace Neo,

You stated,

By this notion, what stops me from assuming that creation is an expression of god's hate? Or god's apathy?

I think you would need to provide a solid example of the existence of this hate or apathy.

Peace,
Tay

neo

Good question is universe an expression of God's hate or apathy? Which do you think is true?

Regards,

I don't know, I thnk it's an irrelevent question (as I've stated many times). But, if 'love' can be the cause of the universe, then why can't hate? It's just the other end of the same spectrum of emotion/quality; whereas apathy is the anti-thesis of 'love'. So, if the universe was born out of 'love', according to you, what stops me from assuming that the universe was born out of hate?

Peace Neo,

You stated,

By this notion, what stops me from assuming that creation is an expression of god's hate? Or god's apathy?

I think you would need to provide a solid example of the existence of this hate or apathy.

Peace,
Tay

I need not, for I'm going off the assumption that the universe was supposedely created out of 'love', and if 'love' exists in an objective sense, then hate and apathy must also exist. From what I can decipher, the universe just is, without a reason. I don't see anything wrong with existing without reason; we don't need love, or experience, or a journey to justify my nor the universe's existence.

Tay

Peace Neo,

if 'love' exists in an objective sense, then hate and apathy must also exist

Yes, but only as by-products of love, or lack thereof. They are not co-dependant, not ying-yang. Ying-yang is an expression of the lower self. The higher self is transcendant of co-dependant expressions.

From what I can decipher, the universe just is, without a reason.
I don't see anything wrong with existing without reason;

That is certainly your perogative, and I don't see anything wrong with it either. Nor do I see anything right with it. I guess the safest place is in the middle, but personally, I'm not after safety.

we don't need love, or experience, or a journey to justify my nor the universe's existence.

We don't need anything, for that matter. We can lie around in complacency and joylessness. Nothing is stopping us. But who wants that? To experience love in it's full grasp is certainly the makings for a better life. I've yet to hear anyone complain about too much love. Have you?

Peace,
Tay