Prophet Muhammad's prayer (how to make salaat)
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Peace "Badr",
I don't know this hadeeth but I'll check it but the point is theres nothing about this hadeeth in the Quran but god says that prayers are obligatory and Muhammad explained them when where why etc....
JK- Nowehere does the Quran say that Muhammad explained to us the prayer. You might as well say Muhammad explained to us what every word in the Quran means and what the meanings of those terms further mean and so on ad infinitum. The Quran states do salat and zakat. We're free to understand them as we think makes reasonable sense and then perform them in that manner within the limits laid out in the Quran. If we perform salat in a manner which doesnt contradict the Quran anywhere, no matter how we perofm it, it's FINE. Is that so diofficult to understand?
Also theres alot of Hadeeths that make sens and are true like the fly one even if you claim the opposite but you have to confess in your true self that it's remarkable.
JK- No i don't have to confess anything except if it were true that one wing actually exlusively carried the diseases and the other the cure for the same.
like I said before you can't condemn a whole basket of fruits because of a rotten apple.
JK- We're talking about religious scriptures here which we are to rely upon our salvation. If we find a few rotten apples in there how can we trust the rest of it particularly in regards to prayer which till this day cannot be shown to have any beneficial effect scientifically moreso than any placebo effect? Only if the whole scriprue was reliable then we could imply that the prayer method in there is also most probably true. GOD Bless!
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not logical. Do you condemn a whole set of fruits because of a rotten apple.
If there is a claim that this set of fruits is the wisdom from Allah given to Muhammed and that they have scientifically been verified and classified as sound and there is one rotten lie, then yes, because I know the wisdom from Allah will not contain 1 rotten lie.
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Nowehere does the Quran say that Muhammad explained to us the prayer. You might as well say Muhammad explained to us what every word in the Quran means and what the meanings of those terms further mean and so on ad infinitum. The Quran states do salat and zakat. We're free to understand them as we think makes reasonable sense and then perform them in that manner within the limits laid out in the Quran. If we perform salat in a manner which doesnt contradict the Quran anywhere, no matter how we perofm it, it's FINE. Is that so diofficult to understand?
No, you are not free to understand them as you want. You are not more capable of those who witnessed the revelation let alone the one who brought it to mankind.
JK- No i don't have to confess anything except if it were true that one wing actually exlusively carried the diseases and the other the cure for the same.
Like I said, when science will be enough advanced to prove it will talk it back D.
JK- We're talking about religious scriptures here which we are to rely upon our salvation. If we find a few rotten apples in there how can we trust the rest of it particularly in regards to prayer which till this day cannot be shown to have any beneficial effect scientifically moreso than any placebo effect?
Try it/eat it to verify and you'll know or ask a specialist in biology/islam theologist.
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hahahahahaha ;D this is the english translation my dear. Where in arabic it says regular ?
so salat is not regular either?My claim is that there's 5 pillars that one must make in order to roger the orders of god.
not sure what your word 'roger' means in there but you are saying that one who prays, pays zakat, does hajj, fasts and declares there is only One God AND Muhammed is the prophet of God has fulfilled all that God asks, even if this is all surface ritual with no thought, emotion, connection?
Now, according to quran aloners what must one make ? can he not perform zakaat ? can he not make hajj ? can he not make salaat ? etc...
Has anyone said that? These things are all in Quran so why would you even think that? ???There must be things to do that according to you that characterize the true muslim.
Yes of course, follow the Quran and thinking and reflecting on its verses and meaning, which is what it says to do. Feeling what it says and feeling the connection to God, asking Him for guidence. Keeping up the remembrance of Him at all times in all we do. Truely meaning it with the heart, not just as some ritual to gain points.If one must make these 5 pillars then they are the 5 pillars of islam, if one can elude them so how much pillars you have ?
Who says one should elude them? They are in Quran so they are from the God. If the God needed to say these are the 5 pillars He is more than capable of saying that, He didn't. We do what Quran says to do and if there is not the detail that you seem to need then it is not important as all the detail we need is in there, fully detailed and complete for those who reflect. This is not a job where you are told what to do and you learn it and do it mindlessly without any thought or reflection but just follow the rules of ritual in action only. This is the spiritual guidence from the creator. By your definition all the men I know that pray, fast, pay a small portion on the days of zakat, do shahadah and hajj then come back and beat the wifes and kids, rip people off and have millions in the bank while they spit on the poor are good muslims doing all that the God asks. That is not what I see in the message from God at all Alhamdulillah!
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No, you are not free to understand them as you want. You are not more capable of those who witnessed the revelation let alone the one who brought it to mankind.
Allah says Quran is easy to understand, complete and fully detailed. Quran also warns of how things were changed before and warns of those who say we hear and obey with thier mouths and not their hearts, it warns of the hypocrisy of the Arabs, it warns what was said behind his back, the people WITH Muhammed, it warns MUHAMMED, it also gives verses for those who did witness the revelation and STILL wanted more or something else or something different and you are saying to follow those we were warned about rather than use the brain God gave us and follow what GOD said? -
so salat is not regular either?
it's not what I've said but I proved my point.
not sure what your word 'roger' means in there but you are saying that one who prays, pays zakat, does hajj, fasts and declares there is only One God AND Muhammed is the prophet of God has fulfilled all that God asks, even if this is all surface ritual with no thought, emotion, connection?
No saying the Shahada and meaning it and doing all the rest with conviction and also following all what's in the quran too.
Has anyone said that? These things are all in Quran so why would you even think that? ???
it's coming
Yes of course, follow the Quran and thinking and reflecting on its verses and meaning, which is what it says to do. Feeling what it says and feeling the connection to God, asking Him for guidence. Keeping up the remembrance of Him at all times in all we do. Truely meaning it with the heart, not just as some ritual to gain points.
But these rituals are in it so they're obligatory no ?
Who says one should elude them? They are in Quran so they are from the God. If the God needed to say these are the 5 pillars He is more than capable of saying that, He didn't. We do what Quran says to do and if there is not the detail that you seem to need then it is not important as all the detail we need is in there, fully detailed and complete for those who reflect. This is not a job where you are told what to do and you learn it and do it mindlessly without any thought or reflection but just follow the rules of ritual in action only. This is the spiritual guidence from the creator. By your definition all the men I know that pray, fast, pay a small portion on the days of zakat, do shahadah and hajj then come back and beat the wifes and kids, rip people off and have millions in the bank while they spit on the poor are good muslims doing all that the God asks. That is not what I see in the message from God at all Alhamdulillah!
So if I understand, you should not elude them nor confess they are pillars
You did not answer my question ; what are the pillars of the quran-aloners ? it must be some stuff you absolutely have to do that differenciate you from all other lost sunni muslims
Please keep your stupid examples as a man who beats his wife and all for you, we can only agree about that it's islam + common sense + good morals etc etc... ...
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Allah says Quran is easy to understand, complete and fully detailed. Quran also warns of how things were changed before and warns of those who say we hear and obey with thier mouths and not their hearts, it warns of the hypocrisy of the Arabs, it warns what was said behind his back, the people WITH Muhammed, it warns MUHAMMED, it also gives verses for those who did witness the revelation and STILL wanted more or something else or something different and you are saying to follow those we were warned about rather than use the brain God gave us and follow what GOD said?
1-these people are the best people that have been created on earth "Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, , under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest" (481
""Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example
in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises THOSE AMONG THEM who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense." (4829)2-You seem to be a little bit (to not say alot) racist about arabs. While you must think good about all muslims and especially the arabs that god blessed with the prophet from them and amongst them instead of the israelites.
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Peace "Badr"
No, you are not free to understand them as you want. You are not more capable of those who witnessed the revelation let alone the one who brought it to mankind.
JK- I never said i was more capable. Muhammad probably took salat as what he understood it to mean and so did the rest of us without fixing it's meaning to any one rigid ritual as defined in hadith. That's the whole point. Nothing to do with being more or less capable than anyone.
Like I said, when science will be enough advanced to prove it will talk it back D.
JK- Ok so until then I have no reason to accept any of your claims in ergards to this issue.
Try it/eat it to verify and you'll know or ask a specialist in biology/islam theologist.
JK- Ofcourse not every fly will be diseased. On the other hand am i insane to eat a fly carrying cholera or other diseases? It is common knwoledge that flies spread these diseases and nothing indicates that their wings carry aynthing special let alone the cure and disease each in one particular wing. The antiphages you mentioned are also extracted from the entire body of the fly not the wings in particular. GOD Bless!
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it's not what I've said but I proved my point.
I feel it proved mine and you cannot answer it.No saying the Shahada and meaning it and doing all the rest with conviction and also following all what's in the quran too.
Oh so you do follow Quran too? Is that primary or secondary to following hadith? So why isn't having conviction and meaning another 'pillar' or 2?it's coming
I love hadithist that see the future! You do know only God sees the future don't you?But these rituals are in it so they're obligatory no ?
they are not 'pillars' though. They are not what holds Islam up are they? They are rituals.So if I understand, you should not elude them nor confess they are pillars
You should know by now we are not ritualistic robotic followers. Why is the word 'confess' in there?You did not answer my question ; what are the pillars of the quran-aloners ? it must be some stuff you absolutely have to do that differenciate you from all other lost sunni muslims
You didn't answer many of mine but I expect you can't so no worries. Yes there is some stuff we do that differentiates us from Sunni, we follow Quran alone, just as Muhammed did. Quran is the pillar of Islam, Quran is what doesn't contradict or lie, Quran is where Islam is described and how to follow Islam. So I suppose if you insist we have pillars then that is the one I will go for, but normally we do have more meaningful things to discuss than how many 'pillars'.Please keep your stupid examples as a man who beats his wife and all for you, we can only agree about that it's islam + common sense + good morals etc etc... ...
right, so the 5 pillars are crumbling now or what? You are having to admit there is a bit more to it than mere ritual actions, so where in the 5 pillars does it say this or is it something you have just thought up? Do you think this doesn't happen? I assure you very much it DOES because they are people like you, who follow like you, and think as long as they do all these rituals they are great muslims because that is what they are taught from the hadith and the things you are presenting here.Now you have added common sense and good morals which is great, you are now beginning to learn a little what we are about. We have used common sense to arrive at Quran Alone and we find the examples of good morals in Quran Alone. A man that sets fire to a house with the people still in it because they didn't attend prayer at that time is not showing a good moral example to me, but he seems to for the man who beats his wife. Yes that is hadith.
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Peace "Badr"
JK- I never said i was more capable. Muhammad probably took salat as what he understood it to mean and so did the rest of us without fixing it's meaning to any one rigid ritual as defined in hadith. That's the whole point. Nothing to do with being more or less capable than anyone.
Mohammad did not "probabely took salat as what he understood it to mean" it has been revealed to him exactely how it should be done.
JK- Ofcourse not every fly will be diseased. On the other hand am i insane to eat a fly carrying cholera or other diseases? It is common knwoledge that flies spread these diseases and nothing indicates that their wings carry aynthing special let alone the cure and disease each in one particular wing. The antiphages you mentioned are also extracted from the entire body of the fly not the wings in particular. GOD Bless!
In the link I gave you they said they extract it from the surface, wings are on the surface. Even my atheist friends confess that this hadeeth is miraculous and you, a muslim, reject it like cholera. nope
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1-these people are the best people that have been created on earth "Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, , under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest" (481
""Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example
in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises THOSE AMONG THEM who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense." (4829)That is not those that God warned about is it. I assume you do know the verses I mean. Bukhari and Abu Hurairah were not in these people were they? those that allegedly passed on the hadith are not in these people either.
2-You seem to be a little bit (to not say alot) racist about arabs. While you must think good about all muslims and especially the arabs that god blessed with the prophet from them and amongst them instead of the israelites.
I am not racist about anyone and I am married an Egyptian Muslim. I was referring to the verses in Quran and I'm sure Allah is not racist, why would you assume I am for pointing out those verses?
No I must not think good about all muslims, why should I? Muslims can be just as hypocritical as anyone else, sometimes even more so! God did not bless all Arabs, where is that in Quran? those that were with Muhammed in mind body and spirit totally understood the message from Allah, that did not include all Arabs! Muhammed had many enemies among the Arabs and that is also in Quran.
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Mohammad did not "probabely took salat as what he understood it to mean" it has been revealed to him exactely how it should be done.
The revelation is Quran, if this detail is not in there then it was not "revealed to him exactely how it should be done." outside Quran.Abraham also prayed, so did all prophets before Muhammed and the detail IS in Quran, you just need more like those Allah mentions in Quran needing more and not being satisfied with what was revealed.
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Peace "Badr",
Mohammad did not "probabely took salat as what he understood it to mean" it has been revealed to him exactely how it should be done.
JK- You say that again and again but WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE for this claim? Where does the Quran say "O muhammad teach them how to perform their prayers/salat"?
In the link I gave you they said they extract it from the surface, wings are on the surface. Even my atheist friends confess that this hadeeth is miraculous and you, a muslim, reject it like cholera. nope
JK- I posted a whole article where an atheist refutes this hadith. The surface of the fly is not only the wings. Surface is a general term and can apply to various parts of a flies body. Why don't you go out to a sepcialist on flies yourself and ask him/her? See if he/she will tell you that the phages and antiphages are limited to the flies wings or whether merely dumping a fly carrying diseases like cholera into a drink would neutralize it without special extraction methods which even you stated using alcohol. GOD Bless!
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they are not 'pillars' though. They are not what holds Islam up are they? They are rituals.
Yes they are, rituals that holds islam up. They are commanded in the quran so they are obligatory we can consider them as pillars because in case of non prayers no complete islam.
?But if they repent, perform As-Salaat and give Zakaat, then they are your brethren in religion.?
understand ; if they dont pray and give zakaat they are not your brethren in islam.
You should know by now we are not ritualistic robotic followers. Why is the word 'confess' in there?
if you have followed the discussion youd have understood that I was referring to the obligatory feature of the salaat. (you said we follow what's in the quran, sallat is in the quran ; you have to "confess" it's obligatory)
You didn't answer many of mine but I expect you can't so no worries. Yes there is some stuff we do that differentiates us from Sunni, we follow Quran alone, just as Muhammed did. Quran is the pillar of Islam, Quran is what doesn't contradict or lie, Quran is where Islam is described and how to follow Islam. So I suppose if you insist we have pillars then that is the one I will go for, but normally we do have more meaningful things to discuss than how many 'pillars'.
You still didnt answered.
right, so the 5 pillars are crumbling now or what? You are having to admit there is a bit more to it than mere ritual actions, so where in the 5 pillars does it say this or is it something you have just thought up? Do you think this doesn't happen? I assure you very much it DOES because they are people like you, who follow like you, and think as long as they do all these rituals they are great muslims because that is what they are taught from the hadith and the things you are presenting here.
Now you have added common sense and good morals which is great, you are now beginning to learn a little what we are about. We have used common sense to arrive at Quran Alone and we find the examples of good morals in Quran Alone. A man that sets fire to a house with the people still in it because they didn't attend prayer at that time is not showing a good moral example to me, but he seems to for the man who beats his wife. Yes that is hadith.
???
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Peace "Badr",
if you have followed the discussion youd have understood that I was referring to the obligatory feature of the salaat. (you said we follow what's in the quran, sallat is in the quran ; you have to "confess" it's obligatory)
JK- We have to confess that "salat" is obligatory but not even that salat necessarily means prayer at all. Have you read Ayman's and other freeminders artciles on what salat means at free-minds main site? If not perhaps you should. GOD Bless!
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Yes they are, rituals that holds islam up. They are commanded in the quran so they are obligatory we can consider them as pillars because in case of non prayers no complete islam.
define prayers.
No they are not what holds Islam up and as I said one can do all these ritual pillars and still not be Muslim, THAT is what you don't seem to get.?But if they repent, perform As-Salaat and give Zakaat, then they are your brethren in religion.?
understand ; if they dont pray and give zakaat they are not your brethren in islam.
Jews Christians, Hindu, Buddhist, all do prayer and give in charity. ;Dif you have followed the discussion youd have understood that I was referring to the obligatory feature of the salaat. (you said we follow what's in the quran, sallat is in the quran ; you have to "confess" it's obligatory)
I have followed the discussion but cannot find where you describe the non-obligatory feature of salat, can you point it out please.You still didnt answered.
I did.???
Well is that showing a good moral example? You said common sense and good morals, is burning people in their houses because they missed a prayer time a good moral example or do you not know the hadith?
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define prayers.
No they are not what holds Islam up and as I said one can do all these ritual pillars and still not be Muslim, THAT is what you don't seem to get.Jews Christians, Hindu, Buddhist, all do prayer and give in charity. ;D
I have followed the discussion but cannot find where you describe the non-obligatory feature of salat, can you point it out please.
I did.
Well is that showing a good moral example? You said common sense and good morals, is burning people in their houses because they missed a prayer time a good moral example or do you not know the hadith?With you, the discussion turns into a closed circle, it's not about "getting me" or "set ups" I have no obligations before you neither you before me, we are discussion but you can't stop trying to ridicule me wich you dont succeed to do. If I didnt answer your burning house sentences it's because it's obvious, don't make me say what I didnt.
Now if I dont answer your posts it's just because there's a button "ignore" next to your name and I will use it.
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Peace "Badr",
JK- We have to confess that "salat" is obligatory but not even that salat necessarily means prayer at all. Have you read Ayman's and other freeminders artciles on what salat means at free-minds main site? If not perhaps you should. GOD Bless!
Sorry but I don't think "Ayman" is reference when it comes to islam, if you want to talk as equal to equal and exchange ideas it's OK for me, but no need to quote ayman or anyone that have proved nothing in this world.
And from what I saw, on the main page the articles are simple propaganda and full of S-H-I-T (example the vs sunni vs shia etc...).
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With you, the discussion turns into a closed circle, it's not about "getting me" or "set ups" I have no obligations before you neither you before me, we are discussion but you can't stop trying to ridicule me wich you dont succeed to do. If I didnt answer your burning house sentences it's because it's obvious, don't make me say what I didnt.
My apologies brother, I did not mean for my questions to be so difficult you would see them as ridicule as you have taken them.Now if I dont answer your posts it's just because there's a button "ignore" next to your name and I will use it.
No problems, ignore me and my questions if you wish until you find how to answer them peace
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Peace "Badr",
JK- You say that again and again but WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE for this claim? Where does the Quran say "O muhammad teach them how to perform their prayers/salat"?
Let's suppose that Muhammad is a norma lhuman and contradict (532-4) Do you think God will leave something on wich He insists all through Quran to his random thinking ?