"Badr" in this thread I'd like to ask you some questions that come to my mind!

Badr

Peace "Badr",

JK- And I've shown you how in my understanding and that of almost all Quran Alone Muslims it does contradict the Quran because you're thereby making a distinction of GOD's messengers if you insist on his name being inserted ion the Adhaan and Shahaadah and exluding all other messengers.

If if it wasnt justified I don't see how it could bother you.

JK- Quran Alone Muslims believe that the Quran's verses should be used to explain other Quranic verses and not hadith. Infact we Muslims say that the Quran specifically uses the term "hadith", whilst it couldve used many others if it just meant stories/sayings, and condemned any after GOD's revelations to be of any religious value.

Yes it is a belief, it may be true and it may be false, it is obviously false because you need hadith whether you want it or not, each time you read a translation of Quran theres a huge amount of hadeeth in it and you dont seem to be aware of this. NOBODY ever translated quran without referring to hadith.

JK- There is nothing else. Whatever is commanded in the Quran is also commanded by the messenger technically since it came from his mouth. Plain and simple. Infact nothing is commanded by Allah directly hence there is a verse in the Quran which says that if you obey the messenger you've obeyed GOD and in effect you'd have done so. GOD Bless!

You're not obeying the messenger by skipping how he teached salaat etc...

jonny_k

Peace "Badr",

If if it wasnt justified I don't see how it could bother you.

JK- Don't thinks which you consider unislamic bother you? in the same way if i see something as contradicting the Quran and thus Islam by it bothers me too.

Yes it is a belief, it may be true and it may be false, it is obviously false because you need hadith whether you want it or not, each time you read a translation of Quran theres a huge amount of hadeeth in it and you dont seem to be aware of this. NOBODY ever translated quran without referring to hadith.

JK- We believe this based on reasoning after analysing the various relevant verses in the Quran ofcourse. hence we're convinced that it is true. And again your use of the word "obviously false" comes off as very offensive and would make us fire rtight back. WE DONT NEED HADITH to understand Quran. Period. We need independent study of history backed by archaelogy to understand some stories in the Quran that I can agree, just like we needed scientific invetigation to udnerstand 2130. Hadith couldnt do that. It is totally useless WORSE it is harmful and misninterprets the Quran.

You're not obeying the messenger by skipping how he teached salaat etc...

JK- DIDNT I MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE DONT ACCEPT HE EVEN TAUGHT IT? GOD Bless!

Badr

Peace "Badr",

JK- Don't thinks which you consider unislamic bother you? in the same way if i see something as contradicting the Quran and thus Islam by it bothers me too.

You earlier stated that it is not bothering you but I BETTER say and quran is book of allah.

JK- We believe this based on reasoning after analysing the various relevant verses in the Quran ofcourse. hence we're convinced that it is true. And again your use of the word "obviously false" comes off as very offensive and would make us fire rtight back. WE DONT NEED HADITH to understand Quran. Period. We need independent study of history backed by archaelogy to understand some stories in the Quran that I can agree, just like we needed scientific invetigation to udnerstand 2130. Hadith couldnt do that. It is totally useless WORSE it is harmful and misninterprets the Quran.

Try to understand that phrase

the quran you are reading is translated from arabic to your language according to hadeeth.

JK- DIDNT I MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE DONT ACCEPT HE EVEN TAUGHT IT? GOD Bless!

So you assume he didnt fulfill his duty ?

jonny_k

Peace "Badr",

You earlier stated that it is not bothering you but I BETTER say and quran is book of allah.

JK- Don't remember that I said such. Anyways it does bother me because I see this is in direct violtion to a Quranic commandment.

Try to understand that phrase

the quran you are reading is translated from arabic to your language according to hadeeth.

JK- This is partly true for some verses and not for others. Thats why we have a lot of work to do coz those very verses which are interpreted based on hadith are mostly the ones which cause trouble i.e. make little sense. Most of the Quran is translated using classical arabic dictionaries based on independent classical Arabic. Arabic existed long before hadith came into the picture.

So you assume he didnt fulfill his duty ?

JK- He fulfilled his duty TO DELIVER THE QURAN AND WARN PEOPLE THEREBY and he did so
You have NO duty EXCEPT delivering (Quran)" (424
"Your ONLY duty is delivering (Quran), while We will call them to account." (1340)
"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivering (Quran) and God knows whatever you declare, as well as whatever you conceal. Say, 'The good and the bad are not the same, despite the abundance of the bad.' Therefore, you shall observe God, O you who possess intelligence, that you may succeed." (599-100)

Should be clear enough. Nowehere do we find that Muhammad was to teach people how to perform salat,zakat or any other term in the Quran, outside of the Quran. GOD Bless!

Alen

Peace "Badr",

I will try to only ask one question at a time so as to not make it to difficult. It might evolve into a very exciting debate and maybe we'll just mvoe onto the next. SO that said my first question to you would be

I've heard as a former sunni that there can be more than one prophet(nabi) at the same time BUT that there can be only one messenger(rasool) at any one particular time. Do you also share this view?

GOD Bless!

Peace.

If you don't mind, I got one question for badr.

Question where in The Qur'an is the word hadeeth used and in what way?

I'd appreciate your speedy response.
God bless you.
Peace.

Badr

Peace "Badr",

JK- Don't remember that I said such. Anyways it does bother me because I see this is in direct violtion to a Quranic commandment.

it is not, for the reason i previously stated.

JK- This is partly true for some verses and not for others. Thats why we have a lot of work to do coz those very verses which are interpreted based on hadith are mostly the ones which cause trouble i.e. make little sense. Most of the Quran is translated using classical arabic dictionaries based on independent classical Arabic. Arabic existed long before hadith came into the picture.

I think we reached a conclusion right here and your theory start to fall apart. The quran is in a big part, almost all of it is translated according to hadeeth. You may think that what is translated according to hadeeth cause trouble wich is from what I've known from this forum almost every thing ; the shahada, the salaat, the hajj, punishments, relation of the couple etc... so the hadeeth is used to translate almost all the book, I did not force you to confess it. Thats why hadeeth and quran are indivisible.

JK- He fulfilled his duty TO DELIVER THE QURAN AND WARN PEOPLE THEREBY and he did so
You have NO duty EXCEPT delivering (Quran)" (424
"Your ONLY duty is delivering (Quran), while We will call them to account." (1340)
"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivering (Quran) and God knows whatever you declare, as well as whatever you conceal. Say, 'The good and the bad are not the same, despite the abundance of the bad.' Therefore, you shall observe God, O you who possess intelligence, that you may succeed." (599-100)

funny how (quran) is between () in the three verses, it says everything. if it was only quran it would have been clearly said but no, why? because it is more general than "quran alone".

Should be clear enough. Nowehere do we find that Muhammad was to teach people how to perform salat,zakat or any other term in the Quran, outside of the Quran. GOD Bless!

you answered your question by the verses you posted.

Case closed!

MesMorial

Peace "Badr",

You just mentioned "the wife episode" and there are two such in the Quran 661 and 3337 and he thought you meant 661 of the two. It isn't his fault. Infact I can turn this around and make it your fault for not being more specific. GOD Bless!

Apologies although I would say to Badr that there is no mystery in 3337...

Khuda hafiz

jonny_k

Peace "Badr",

it is not, for the reason i previously stated.

JK- It is not making a distinction when you consistenly name one messenger's name only in the shahaada? No independent inquirer other than those who already beleive would agree with that.

I think we reached a conclusion right here and your theory start to fall apart. The quran is in a big part, almost all of it is translated according to hadeeth. You may think that what is translated according to hadeeth cause trouble wich is from what I've known from this forum almost every thing ; the shahada, the salaat, the hajj, punishments, relation of the couple etc... so the hadeeth is used to translate almost all the book, I did not force you to confess it. Thats why hadeeth and quran are indivisible.

JK- You're equating hadith with an Arabic dictionary which is BS to say the least. Much of how the Quran is translated relies on the Arabic language from independent dictionaries. Example the terms Hamd, Azeem, Rabb etc all have menaing sin the language itself. NOW the hadith may restrict them to certain menaings, sure, but that is exactly the point we're arguing against. We have to derive the meaning of a word, with mutiple menaings, with logic and reason as to what makes sense within the Quran and that'sd excatly why we have and want nothing to do with hadith followers and their biases.

funny how (quran) is between () in the three verses, it says everything. if it was only quran it would have been clearly said but no, why? because it is more general than "quran alone".

JK- It maybe that Muhammad in his time delivered particular local stuff which was only for that time. That much I can agree with HOWEVER whatever GOD meant to preserve as to what He delivered is only in the Quran and hence LOGICALLY only that could be meant for all time.

you answered your question by the verses you posted.

Case closed!

JK- I#m getting tired of repeating myself now. The verses above do not say in anyway that Muhammad delivered a method for salat, zakat. If this was true THEN AT THE VERY LEAST GOD woudlve said so clearly in the Quran BUT HE DIDNT. Case CLOSED! GOD Bless!

Badr

JK- It maybe that Muhammad in his time delivered particular local stuff which was only for that time.

Yeah, some insifignant details made/prescripted/said by the one who was only a "walking quran" and had only "extraordinary moral standards" and was chosen only by God himself just to transmitt what is revealed to him during about only 20 years (or more) witnessed but only tousands of people who were only amongst the most trustworthy muslims of all times.

jonny_k

Peace "Badr",

Yeah, some insifignant details made/prescripted/said by the one who was only a "walking quran" and had only "extraordinary moral standards" and was chosen only by God himself just to transmitt what is revealed to him during about only 20 years (or more) witnessed but only tousands of people who were only amongst the most trustworthy muslims of all times.

JK- Where in the Quran was he termed "walking Quran"? As for his moral standards, sure they were great and probably better than most or possibly even all people at HIS TIME. As for the witnesses I think I already showed you how realiable eye wtiness accounts are, or didn't you see the video and trustworthiness has nothing to do with it. OUR human brain is made like that. GOD Bless!

Badr

Peace "Badr",

JK- Where in the Quran was he termed "walking Quran"? As for his moral standards, sure they were great and probably better than most or possibly even all people at HIS TIME. As for the witnesses I think I already showed you how realiable eye wtiness accounts are, or didn't you see the video and trustworthiness has nothing to do with it. OUR human brain is made like that. GOD Bless!

You are underestimating the status of Muhammad Rasul Allah.

Alen

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

badr, I'd like to ask you a few questions and I'd like it even more, if you could answer them with a siomple yes or no or I don't know. Later, we'll go into detail, God willing, akoBogda, inshaAllah.
Deal?

Where in The Qur'an does it say to raise hands at the start of the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to point a finger at the sky during the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to look right and left at the end of the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to sometimes only touch the toes with wet hands? (wudhu???)
Where in The Qur'an does it say to give 2.5% to the charity of the yearly income?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to walk around the black cube in Mecca, seven times?
Where in The Qur'an does Allah SWT prohibit gold, silk for men and having dogs?
Where in The Qur'an does Allah SWT order men to have beards and never shave?
Where in The Qur'an does Allah SWT order women to wear hijab, niqab, burqa?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that I must hold my hands on my belly during the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that I must pray in Arabic?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to follow hadeeth? (Bukhary, Muslim, ....)
Where in The Qur'an does it say that person will get 72 virgins in Paradise? (is Paradise limited?????)
Where in The Qur'an does it say women and men cannot pray in the same room?
Where in The Qur'an does it say a woman cannot lead a prayer at the mosque?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that we are allowed to commit suicide? (like today in Mid-East)
Where in The Qur'an does it say to cut a thief's hand for a robbery?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to stone anyone for anything?
Where in The Qur'an does it say we're allowed to smoke?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that prophet/messenger Muhammad will intercede for me?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that we must call Muhammad's name att he call of the prayer?

I got more questions but please for now, just try your best to answer at least some of these with yes, no or I don't know. Whatever your answer is, I'll respect it, God willing.

God Bless ya,
Peace.

Badr

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

badr, I'd like to ask you a few questions and I'd like it even more, if you could answer them with a siomple yes or no or I don't know. Later, we'll go into detail, God willing, akoBogda, inshaAllah.
Deal?

Where in The Qur'an does it say to raise hands at the start of the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to point a finger at the sky during the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to look right and left at the end of the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to sometimes only touch the toes with wet hands? (wudhu???)
Where in The Qur'an does it say to give 2.5% to the charity of the yearly income?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to walk around the black cube in Mecca, seven times?
Where in The Qur'an does Allah SWT prohibit gold, silk for men and having dogs?
Where in The Qur'an does Allah SWT order men to have beards and never shave?
Where in The Qur'an does Allah SWT order women to wear hijab, niqab, burqa?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that I must hold my hands on my belly during the prayer?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that I must pray in Arabic?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to follow hadeeth? (Bukhary, Muslim, ....)
Where in The Qur'an does it say that person will get 72 virgins in Paradise? (is Paradise limited?????)
Where in The Qur'an does it say women and men cannot pray in the same room?
Where in The Qur'an does it say a woman cannot lead a prayer at the mosque?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that we are allowed to commit suicide? (like today in Mid-East)
Where in The Qur'an does it say to cut a thief's hand for a robbery?
Where in The Qur'an does it say to stone anyone for anything?
Where in The Qur'an does it say we're allowed to smoke?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that prophet/messenger Muhammad will intercede for me?
Where in The Qur'an does it say that we must call Muhammad's name att he call of the prayer?

I got more questions but please for now, just try your best to answer at least some of these with yes, no or I don't know. Whatever your answer is, I'll respect it, God willing.

God Bless ya,
Peace.

We are not going to settle it like that as we are not agreeing on the obligation to follow hadeeth in the origin of the discussion, some of these questions have a response on the Quran but most not. My point is that the Quran is the main source (constitution) and we must refer to the hadeeth for the details (different laws) but you are doubting the valuability of the hadeeth as a source. These are very relevant questions and I think every muslim have to ask them one day or another but if you don't find an answer in the quran you have to look elsewhere, what other source do you have ? who can tell you how to pray for example ? the prophet who recieved the revelation would be the most able to answer you but he isnt here anymore, we still have his legacy tho.

God said "Those who follow the Apostle-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful."

1-Where do you classify smoke ? good things ? if not it is unlawful. (I answered this question because theres not a direct answer in the quran nor the hadeeth, you better make up your mind to find an answer from one of the sources)

2-also this verse enjoins you to follow what the ummi prophet prescribed. I know you will tell me what he said is the quran but I'm convinced theres more and I assume that the wisdom who accompagny quran in alot of verses are the sayings and the deeds of the prophet that we call Sunna of the prophet indeed coming from the sunna of God as stated in this verse "Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course." ("Course" in the arabic version of the Quran is "Sunna&quot.

3-Also, if you doubt what arrived to you from hadeeth fearing to go against Allah's will, the burden is on those who transmitted it, you will be judged according to your own deeds.

Alen

We are not going to settle it like that as we are not agreeing on the obligation to follow hadeeth in the origin of the discussion, some of these questions have a response on the Quran but most not. My point is that the Quran is the main source (constitution) and we must refer to the hadeeth for the details (different laws) but you are doubting the valuability of the hadeeth as a source. These are very relevant questions and I think every muslim have to ask them one day or another but if you don't find an answer in the quran you have to look elsewhere, what other source do you have ? who can tell you how to pray for example ? the prophet who recieved the revelation would be the most able to answer you but he isnt here anymore, we still have his legacy tho.

God said "Those who follow the Apostle-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful."

1-Where do you classify smoke ? good things ? if not it is unlawful. (I answered this question because theres not a direct answer in the quran nor the hadeeth, you better make up your mind to find an answer from one of the sources)

2-also this verse enjoins you to follow what the ummi prophet prescribed. I know you will tell me what he said is the quran but I'm convinced theres more and I assume that the wisdom who accompagny quran in alot of verses are the sayings and the deeds of the prophet that we call Sunna of the prophet indeed coming from the sunna of God as stated in this verse "Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course." ("Course" in the arabic version of the Quran is "Sunna&quot.

3-Also, if you doubt what arrived to you from hadeeth fearing to go against Allah's will, the burden is on those who transmitted it, you will be judged according to your own deeds.

Salaam,
Respectfully.

I see. Let's go then.
First of all, I see several verses in The Qur'an that tell me clearly not to follow hadeeth by Bukhary & co. Okay? Thank God Who has guided me on The Straight Way, subhanAllah.
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative after this one will they believe?
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do they believe?
5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?

Also
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

6938 So I do swear by what you see.
6939 And what you do not see.
6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

to be concluded ....

Alen

.... being concluded ....

6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Even though I disagree with Rashad Khalifa on many things, this is his silver bullet against people who follow other books besides The Qur'an

http//submission.org/dozen.html

We all agree that there are weak hadeeth from the books of Bukhary and Muslim and Abu Baqr and Dawood and so on and there are strong hadith and so on and on, right?
You can never say the same about Quranic verses - they are all, ALL STRONG. You will never hear a weak verse from The Qur'an. Entire Qur'an works all the time until the Last Day.
With hadeeth from men this is not the case eventually, we discover a lie in there.

There are at least three hadeeth that strongly contradict Allah SWT.

I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3
I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

Now let's see ayya from The Qur'an, from Allah SWT

5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.

Let them!
Yeah, I know, they can't.
No one can produce a hadeeth like The Qur'an.
Quran is THE BEST narrative, best hadeth, that is if you still remember 3923, brother.

Who teaches me The Qur'an? I'd say It's Author - Allah SWT. Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger. Not God's assistant. remember what christians have made Jesus to God? His son. Glory be to Allah SWT, Allah is Exalted and High above what they say. SubhanAllah.

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslims.

.... to be continued ....

Alen

.... being continued ....

As I mentioned before, the prayer is described in The Qur'an, you just need to search for it, that is, if you want to, no one has the right to force you and no one can simply input/implement the knowledge into your head, you should ask Allah SWT to increase you in knowledge and ask Him for the sabr, trust me on this one, God knows BEST.

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

See, in chapter 4, verse 82, it says why don't they study The Qur'an carefully? It does not say why don't they study The Qur'an and some Bible and when they get the time few hadeeth. No. It says also if it was from other then Allah SWT, and hadeeth Bukhary is from a man named Bukhary, right, then yeah, like Allah SWT says, you would found in it numerous contradictions.
Guess what?
I did!
I found several contyradictions!
I have found contradicting hadeeth with other hadeeth, with The Qur'aan and I don't like it. Therefore, hadeeth by men fall off.
Bye-bye.

Exactly! Follow the messenger, follow the prophet, obey the messenger or obey the prophet, it never says obey or follow Moses or Muhammad or Noah. Never by the name when it comes to obediance. There is a difference when it comes to obeying a messenger Muhammad and obeying Muhammad, see what I mean? Messenger Muhammad is The Messenger because of The Message, right? Muhammad is the man, a citizen of Arabia, a huasband, a salesman, a neighbour and so on. We have people today named Muhammad but they are not messengers, yes?

My friend, brother, Allah SWT is SO Merciful, He is The MOST Merciful that He The Most Wise leaves many decisions to us. He tells us not to eat blood, pork and so on but we can eat all fruit and vegetables, right? Some people don't like exotic fruit. My grandfather did not like exotic fruit but he did not prohibit it to himself, he simply did not like it, since he lived most his life in the village in Bosnia. He was not use to bananas and kiwi and such. He gave it to me and therefore earned himself a good deed.

If you don't like aubergines, then you don't have to eat it, see, I love them and love combining them with mashed potatoes. Prophet and messenger Muhammad did not eat certain type of food, God knows BEST and that does not mean that I will do the same. He also did not have a cell phone like me or access to this internet. Should I live in the desert?

I hope you see my point. God willing.

I hope you will read chapter 68 and 69 very carefully. If the messenger Muhammad said any other teachings but The Qur'an, God says He would cut Muhammad's wateen. That's very direct. In fact, I will say this as a person, citizen, husband, father, ... Muhammad can say whatever he wants and he did. But as a messenger of God and a seal of the prophets, he is allowed to speak ONLY The Qur'an. Had he said something else, he'd be dead. Like if he said some hadeeth narrated by this ONE MAN who apparently did not remember 2282.

Peace.

Badr

Salaam,
Respectfully.

I see. Let's go then.
First of all, I see several verses in The Qur'an that tell me clearly not to follow hadeeth by Bukhary & co. Okay? Thank God Who has guided me on The Straight Way, subhanAllah.
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative after this one will they believe?
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do they believe?
5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?

Also
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

6938 So I do swear by what you see.
6939 And what you do not see.
6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

These verses are directed to a whole lot of different people and for a whole lot of situations, don't you know the book has been revealed gradually ? it came to correct mistakes and some verses are there for certain situations that occured in the lifetime of the prophet (example the Zaid episode, the battle of Badr, Abu Lahab etc etc...). Of course you are relying on quran only so you don't know wich verse is directed to whom or what or why. What you are citing can be for the disbelievers, the hypocrites (al munafiquun), the people of the book etc...

Even though I disagree with Rashad Khalifa on many things, this is his silver bullet against people who follow other books besides The Qur'an

http//submission.org/dozen.html

First, when it comes to books in the Quran it is strictly for the holy books (ie people of the book). Second, I also disagree with someone who claims to be a perophet).

We all agree that there are weak hadeeth from the books of Bukhary and Muslim and Abu Baqr and Dawood and so on and there are strong hadith and so on and on, right?
You can never say the same about Quranic verses - they are all, ALL STRONG. You will never hear a weak verse from The Qur'an. Entire Qur'an works all the time until the Last Day.

Ok so what's the problem in following strong hadith ?

With hadeeth from men this is not the case eventually, we discover a lie in there.

There are at least three hadeeth that strongly contradict Allah SWT.

I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3
I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

Where are the contradictions ; he leaves with us the quran as a main source, he also leaves the sunna to follow and the ahl al bayt to take care of (this is dedicated to those who lived in their lifetime tho).

Now let's see ayya from The Qur'an, from Allah SWT

5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.

Let them!
Yeah, I know, they can't.
No one can produce a hadeeth like The Qur'an.
Quran is THE BEST narrative, best hadeth, that is if you still remember 3923, brother.

Of course they can't and they're not supposed to. Hadeeth is a narration, a human narration of what the prophet said or did. This is not a divine book.

Who teaches me The Qur'an? I'd say It's Author - Allah SWT. Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger. Not God's assistant. remember what christians have made Jesus to God? His son. Glory be to Allah SWT, Allah is Exalted and High above what they say. SubhanAllah.

The prophet also teached quran, do you think he wasnt able to ? of course he is like all nabi were capables of teaching the previous books let alone the fact that he was revealed one.

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslims.

As I mentioned before, the prayer is described in The Qur'an, you just need to search for it, that is, if you want to, no one has the right to force you and no one can simply input/implement the knowledge into your head, you should ask Allah SWT to increase you in knowledge and ask Him for the sabr, trust me on this one, God knows BEST.

All what have been revealed by the quran regarding the prayer is in the teachings of the prophet Muhammad, theres no contradiction. If he have been brought something less or in opposition of what is in the quran you can have doubts but he teached the same with addings that have been revealed to him. Like I said in another thread, the quran is the constitution and the sunna is the law. If a law is in contradiction with the constitution it can be abolished but if it is not, you have to accept it and follow it.

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

See, in chapter 4, verse 82, it says why don't they study The Qur'an carefully? It does not say why don't they study The Qur'an and some Bible and when they get the time few hadeeth. No. It says also if it was from other then Allah SWT, and hadeeth Bukhary is from a man named Bukhary, right, then yeah, like Allah SWT says, you would found in it numerous contradictions.
Guess what?
I did!
I found several contyradictions!
I have found contradicting hadeeth with other hadeeth, with The Qur'aan and I don't like it. Therefore, hadeeth by men fall off.
Bye-bye.

Like I said if it contradicts leave it if not follow it.

Exactly! Follow the messenger, follow the prophet, obey the messenger or obey the prophet, it never says obey or follow Moses or Muhammad or Noah. Never by the name when it comes to obediance. There is a difference when it comes to obeying a messenger Muhammad and obeying Muhammad, see what I mean? Messenger Muhammad is The Messenger because of The Message, right? Muhammad is the man, a citizen of Arabia, a huasband, a salesman, a neighbour and so on. We have people today named Muhammad but they are not messengers, yes?

Look for the context and then you can easily learn who God is talking to.

My friend, brother, Allah SWT is SO Merciful, He is The MOST Merciful that He The Most Wise leaves many decisions to us. He tells us not to eat blood, pork and so on but we can eat all fruit and vegetables, right? Some people don't like exotic fruit. My grandfather did not like exotic fruit but he did not prohibit it to himself, he simply did not like it, since he lived most his life in the village in Bosnia. He was not use to bananas and kiwi and such. He gave it to me and therefore earned himself a good deed.

If you don't like aubergines, then you don't have to eat it, see, I love them and love combining them with mashed potatoes. Prophet and messenger Muhammad did not eat certain type of food, God knows BEST and that does not mean that I will do the same. He also did not have a cell phone like me or access to this internet. Should I live in the desert?

I hope you see my point. God willing.

I like aubergines ;D

I hope you will read chapter 68 and 69 very carefully. If the messenger Muhammad said any other teachings but The Qur'an, God says He would cut Muhammad's wateen. That's very direct. In fact, I will say this as a person, citizen, husband, father, ... Muhammad can say whatever he wants and he did. But as a messenger of God and a seal of the prophets, he is allowed to speak ONLY The Qur'an. Had he said something else, he'd be dead. Like if he said some hadeeth narrated by this ONE MAN who apparently did not remember 2282.

Peace.

His wateen did not be cut so it says it all.

Alen

Salaam.

Badr, only Allah can teach His Own Book. 552.
Only The Qur'an is The BEST hadeeth. 3923.

Brother, when you say something about The Qur'an, you should really quote a verse from it, so that no one can accuse you that you're just stating an opinion of yours. No disrespect.

Since we both agree that hadeeth by men are not divine, let's not follow non-divine material, what do you say?

This is your BIGGEST problem ever
You Badr said this" Like I said if it contradicts leave it if not follow it. "
Correct?
If you said if it contradicts, leave it, if not, follow it?????
Are you serious?
You're for real, aren't ya?
Brother, then, I'll say this if you read in The Bible smite them all, men, women and children, don't leave anything that breathes, then that means that all christians are preparing exterminating war against us all and we should prepare ourselves to defend our lives and homes, right?
No.
Wrong, brother.
If I say whatever, it may be wrong, remember, Allah SWT knows BEST.
I don't know.
Bukhary doesn't know/didn't know.
"Muslim" didn't/doesn't know.
Abu Baqr didn't/doesn't know.
No human knows unless and until Allah SWT gives him that knowledge, God willing, God Knows BEST.
I had no idea I will be living here in London, when I was 7. Though, I remember that time now. I was in school, learning how to read & write, Thank God.

Allah SWT is The Judge, He judges and He will decide what we will follow/obey, inshaAllah.
Allah SWT decides to guide people and He alone guides whomever He decides, Allah SWT knows BEST.

Glory be to God.
Peace.

Badr

Salaam.

Badr, only Allah can teach His Own Book. 552.
Only The Qur'an is The BEST hadeeth. 3923.

Brother, when you say something about The Qur'an, you should really quote a verse from it, so that no one can accuse you that you're just stating an opinion of yours. No disrespect.

You want me to comment on 21 verses with their contexts and the reasons of their revelation and then you'll tell me no this is not Quran so this is not true ? open a tafsir book and you'll find by yourself.

Example 5234 was directed to the non believers of Qureish who claimed that Muhammad is a prophet and he will loose of his popularity and maybe die like two previous famous pre-islamic poets who are Zuhair and Al Nabigha.

Since we both agree that hadeeth by men are not divine, let's not follow non-divine material, what do you say?

This is your BIGGEST problem ever
You Badr said this" Like I said if it contradicts leave it if not follow it. "
Correct?
If you said if it contradicts, leave it, if not, follow it?????
Are you serious?
You're for real, aren't ya?

I am 4 real not a bot, don't worry.

I was saying this about one hadith not the whole sunna or the collection of hadiths.

for example if there's a hadith that says that you can make salaat without wudu it clearly contradicts the quran, so leave it.

Brother, then, I'll say this if you read in The Bible smite them all, men, women and children, don't leave anything that breathes, then that means that all christians are preparing exterminating war against us all and we should prepare ourselves to defend our lives and homes, right?
No.
Wrong, brother.
If I say whatever, it may be wrong, remember, Allah SWT knows BEST.
I don't know.
Bukhary doesn't know/didn't know.
"Muslim" didn't/doesn't know.
Abu Baqr didn't/doesn't know.
No human knows unless and until Allah SWT gives him that knowledge, God willing, God Knows BEST.
I had no idea I will be living here in London, when I was 7. Though, I remember that time now. I was in school, learning how to read & write, Thank God.

Allah SWT is The Judge, He judges and He will decide what we will follow/obey, inshaAllah.
Allah SWT decides to guide people and He alone guides whomever He decides, Allah SWT knows BEST.

Glory be to God.
Peace.

They don't know as allah knows but they did what was possible in their time (they did not have record machines nor video nor computers to do better than what they did) to relate to us how did the prophet lived.

Alen

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Bro, during my time in Leicester, I performed ablution exactly as God tells us in The Qur'an and the guy next to me started nodding his head saying no, no, no, no.
Later on I got banned from ever entering that mosque, written notification.

Why is it that when I perform an ablution according to The Qur'an, I get banned from the mosque but if I did it according to the hadeeth books, I'd be accepted? Would I be accepted then as a muslim?

That's some weird stuff, man.
I just don't get it.
By the way, there is a verse in The Qur'an that you should ponder over

2533
English
Progressive Muslims 2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.
Arabic
Original Text 2533

No disrespect, bro.
Come back.
Peace.