Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Salaam Bigmo
The problem with adultery is that its most of the time the children who pay the ultimate price as adultery most often leads to divorce.
Yes, and it should be the children who are protected by law, they are the innocent ones.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
I understand that, but as a Northern European who does not know that will not consider that when reading the verses. I want to discuss this further (see below)
Also it is inconceiveable that the Koran would ignore the topic of adultery. One of the ten commandments of Moses.
I agree
As far as China is concerned, it is also inconceivable that the Koran would be exactly the same as any other revelation, given that many elements of the Koran has a direct relation with Muhammad's circumstances.
I beg to differ, the message would still be the same regardless of what country the Quran landed. Allah had a reason to choose the Middle East, perhaps this region was the most suitable, just like Allah had a reason to choose male prophets.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
Any legal framework must address the issues related with the society it came from. Just like drunk driving, citizenship laws and border control are not addresses specifically in the Koran, we can still use Koranic guidelines.By not specifying what Zina and fahisha incorporates, I think Allah shows us, just like you say, that the meaning is supposed to be different depending on the society. Allah has on purpose made us into different nations and tribes, it would be illogical if we were then asked by Him to feel exactly the same. In Pakistani and Indian cultures slandering is a problem, let them use Zina to stop slandering. In other countries people do not take responsibility (it is only abortion that is hiding the effect), lets use Zina to stop this.
What I mean to say, Emil, is that abuse of institutions or relationships, which is what what you describe seems to me, to be qualified as a crime and then be witnessed by four people is virtually impossible. How are you going to prove that somebody, for instance wasn't really commited at a certain time, and only appeared to be so?
Salam Huruf
Well, for starters if a man dumps the woman the minute he finds out she is pregnant is proof enough I think. This is not a hypothetical scenario, happens every day.
A woman dumps the man the minute he lost his job. Again, it happens everyday.
If I was love-struck I would certainly appreciate if people who have insight in my relationship (friends, family) would stand up and warn me if they see what I cannot because I am blind with love.
I would like to have a "weapon" against those men who play on the girl's emotions in order to get her in the sack.
The harsh punishment is a deterrent, do not get involved unless you are serious. It is a pre-emptive strike so that orphans are not made unecessarily.
And, I see the impossibility of having four witnesses of adultery bigger than the impossibility of having four witnesses to evidence that a people will not commit to their off-spring.Like I said before, perhaps the meaning of Zina (and fahisha) is supposed to be flexible? It is perhaps not supposed to have one set meaning. Maybe we are to incorporate the meaning with what we and our society regard as Zina.
If we let the society govern what Zina and fahisha means, I think we will find a balance. Zina and fahisha should be governed by our EQ (emotional intellect), otherwise we will only impose moral values upon eachother. -
Salaam Bigmo
Yes, and it should be the children who are protected by law, they are the innocent ones.I understand that, but as a Northern European who does not know that will not consider that when reading the verses. I want to discuss this further (see below)
I agree
I beg to differ, the message would still be the same regardless of what country the Quran landed. Allah had a reason to choose the Middle East, perhaps this region was the most suitable, just like Allah had a reason to choose male prophets.
By not specifying what Zina and fahisha incorporates, I think Allah shows us, just like you say, that the meaning is supposed to be different depending on the society. Allah has on purpose made us into different nations and tribes, it would be illogical if we were then asked by Him to feel exactly the same. In Pakistani and Indian cultures slandering is a problem, let them use Zina to stop slandering. In other countries people do not take responsibility (it is only abortion that is hiding the effect), lets use Zina to stop this.
Salam Huruf
Well, for starters if a man dumps the woman the minute he finds out she is pregnant is proof enough I think. This is not a hypothetical scenario, happens every day.
A woman dumps the man the minute he lost his job. Again, it happens everyday.
If I was love-struck I would certainly appreciate if people who have insight in my relationship (friends, family) would stand up and warn me if they see what I cannot because I am blind with love.
I would like to have a "weapon" against those men who play on the girl's emotions in order to get her in the sack.
The harsh punishment is a deterrent, do not get involved unless you are serious. It is a pre-emptive strike so that orphans are not made unecessarily.
And, I see the impossibility of having four witnesses of adultery bigger than the impossibility of having four witnesses to evidence that a people will not commit to their off-spring.Like I said before, perhaps the meaning of Zina (and fahisha) is supposed to be flexible? It is perhaps not supposed to have one set meaning. Maybe we are to incorporate the meaning with what we and our society regard as Zina.
If we let the society govern what Zina and fahisha means, I think we will find a balance. Zina and fahisha should be governed by our EQ (emotional intellect), otherwise we will only impose moral values upon eachother.Tje problem of that is proving and in fat is founded on proving intentions. If a man drops a lover the moment she is pregnant, then you do not need to prove his intentions and that will nto help a bit the mother or the possible child. What should be done, particularly now that the adn can be traced is to takis his money and give it to his family whther he wanted that family or didn't. In fact, funily now in Spain according to law that could be done, but it is not done because the means to cary out the law are not there, and justice is low, slow slow.
How can you prove that a woman left a man because he has no money? May be it is because of that, may be not. May be he is just being very cruel with her and money or not money she just cannot stand it. You may punish people who are guilty, but you may also punich people who are inocent and may be victims. And if what the Qur'an meant that why ask for four witnesses. Could just ask for proof. Documental proof, that would show if somebody drops another person.
I am sorry Emil and morally you are right and we all would agree with that and independently of the zina in Qur'an, we would all want laws that prevented people from misusing relationships and institutions and I am sure , of course, the Qur'an authorizes any legal effort of societies to bring about more equity and justice, but I doubt that zina is meant for that. However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Salam
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Tje problem of that is proving and in fat is founded on proving intentions. If a man drops a lover the moment she is pregnant, then you do not need to prove his intentions and that will nto help a bit the mother or the possible child. What should be done, particularly now that the adn can be traced is to takis his money and give it to his family whther he wanted that family or didn't. In fact, funily now in Spain according to law that could be done, but it is not done because the means to cary out the law are not there, and justice is low, slow slow.
How can you prove that a woman left a man because he has no money? May be it is because of that, may be not. May be he is just being very cruel with her and money or not money she just cannot stand it. You may punish people who are guilty, but you may also punich people who are inocent and may be victims. And if what the Qur'an meant that why ask for four witnesses. Could just ask for proof. Documental proof, that would show if somebody drops another person.
I am sorry Emil and morally you are right and we all would agree with that and independently of the zina in Qur'an, we would all want laws that prevented people from misusing relationships and institutions and I am sure , of course, the Qur'an authorizes any legal effort of societies to bring about more equity and justice, but I doubt that zina is meant for that. However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Salam
Salam
I can find proof just by going to a bar or disco.......I have many male friends that will say "I love you" to a girl just to get her in the sack. They absolutely no intention of becoming a father and I know they would run away if the girl would become pregnant. I also have female friends who would sleep with a man because he has a nice car, know the right people, is famous, has money.
How would you feel if your own sister would be fooled by one of these men? How would you feel if your brother was fooled by one of these girls? Would you not want to know if your future spouse has no intention of becoming a parent? The uncommitted is to marry an uncommitter, there should never be a relationship where one (or two) is not totally committed to the children.Allah is not protecting arab women from slandering, he is protecting his children from bad parents. We don't need to even open our eyes to see that the world we live in has problems, and the ones who get punished are the children. I cannot think of a bigger crime than to knowlingly put a child on this earth and not take responsibility for it. It goes way beyond slandering, waaay beyond.....
Allah tells us not to kill our children because of poverty, we will provide for those who need it. Does that give us the right to produce children without taking the responsibility as a parent? No, of course not. The way I see it is that the earthly punishments set down by Allah are given to us because if Allah would "wait" until judgement day the damage is already done. The victim of a burglary may have lost all his possessions ending up in poverty. An unwanted child has already suffered.
However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Not in Allah's name I hope....
I am sorry I may be typing so it sounds like I am being. I am really stressed right now and I should be packing instead of posting on this very interesting thread.
Need to go, peace brothers and sisters
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For purposes of assurance, I will repeat my above argument for the sake of its sound reasoning, and for the sake of the believers
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!
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Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Was there since the 6th century any event of zina proven by four witnesses?
Was there any event since the 6th century an event where zaani and zaania wer forced or asked to marry each other or marry a mushrik
Was there since the 6th century an event where a zani was refused marriage because of just being a zani?
Your logic of "an event that never happened" does not hold water. -
For purposes of assurance, I will repeat my above argument for the sake of its sound reasoning, and for the sake of the believers
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!
Right, but the same could be said about fornification. We know the Old Testament does not seperate between the two. Most concervative society does not seperate between the two except for males. Most honor killing in Arab societies are about fornification. Some here have translated that verse as meaning both fornification or adultery. This may make sense from a societal perspective but not a legal one. Since marriage is a legal issue while fornification is sex between two partners who are not accountable to anybody else.
One interpretation I find convincing is that Zina simply means betrayal and cheating. Having sex outside a partner you are committed to which you often have to do in hiding. She could be your legal wife or your partner. Either way the effect is the same. Matrriage generally has family and children so it tends to get uglier. I think ist a question of what marriage mean as compared to partners who are not married. In many society people could be living together and not legally married. But the consequences of cheating is almost the same. I am not sure if people can have children outside marriage. I know in Western society you can have that but its still rare.
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@ Samia,
Forgive me Samia, I didn't fully understand your reply.
Please clarify.
@ Bigmo,
Sex is the physical act of reproduction. God prohibits the performance of this act with anyone to whom you are not married.
If a person is single and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
If a person is married and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
Fornication is the English word for zinaa. God prohibits zinaa.
Adultery with sexual relations is therefore prohibited.
I apologise if I'm not being clear, there is a lot of overlap in the definitions of these words making it difficult for me to get the idea across clearly.
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@ Samia,
Forgive me Samia, I didn't fully understand your reply.
Please clarify.
@ Bigmo,
Sex is the physical act of reproduction. God prohibits the performance of this act with anyone to whom you are not married.
If a person is single and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
If a person is married and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
Fornication is the English word for zinaa. God prohibits zinaa.
Adultery with sexual relations is therefore prohibited.
I apologise if I'm not being clear, there is a lot of overlap in the definitions of these words making it difficult for me to get the idea across clearly.
I understand but would God talk about punishment for something that does not transgress in somebody else's right? Disbelieving in God and ridiculing the prophets is far worse than whatever Zina is. Yet God gave people that right to believe or to disbelieve and worship idols. He reserved their fate to Himself and not us.
So whatver Zina is it has to be something that violates somebody else's right. Adultery fits into that and in modern society partners fits into that. As Zina here will mean betrayal and cheating. So maybe Zina is adultery and cheating.
After all isn't adultery in the end cheating and an act of betrayal. It also always invokes harmful reactions. Sometimes murder. But unless it violates somebody else's right and justice than we can not perform any punishment. That is how the Koran frames its legalism. Just to sin or transgress God's command is not our job but God's. Or else we will go back to sectarian Islam where the judge acts like God's stick and the ruler as God's agent on Earth and the police like the angels recording sins. This is not the Koran and the Koran gave nobody such authority.
One of the goals of Sunni/Shia Islam was to elevate the prophetic authority (through the Sunna) to an absolute divine like authority and then to transfer that authority to the 4 Caliphs and then the road is paved to transfer that authority to Omar Al Bashir, Ahmedinijad, Mulla Omar and Al Saud and the Shabab of Somalia. Without the Sunnah that would have been impossible since the prophetic authority in the Koran is a limited authority where what man does to man is in his domian but what man does with God is God's domain. Not the prophet's domain.
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Bigmo,
You make a fair point.
Adultery does violate the right of the person whose partner is cheating. But this in no way alters the meaning of the word zinaa which is used to signify sex outside marriage, invariably. I also agree with you that zinaa is not as bad as disbelieving in God and in the prophets of God, but zinaa carries a punishment in the same way that theft carries a punishment.
Might I add that the probability of 4 witnesses catching two people in the act is hugely remote; there is little chance of such a thing happening. This leads me to believe that it is God's intention to cover up our sins and to not expose them to the public perchance we desist, such is the expanse of this law.
Though, I do believe that the stipulation of punishment serves to act as a boundary to this expanse by establishing that if 4 witnesses do catch two people in the act, and all 4 testify, then the punishment must be established.
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Bigmo,
You make a fair point.
Adultery does violate the right of the person whose partner is cheating. But this in no way alters the meaning of the word zinaa which is used to signify sex outside marriage, invariably. I also agree with you that zinaa is not as bad as disbelieving in God and in the prophets of God, but zinaa carries a punishment in the same way that theft carries a punishment.
Might I add that the probability of 4 witnesses catching two people in the act is hugely remote; there is little chance of such a thing happening. This leads me to believe that it is God's intention to cover up our sins and to not expose them to the public perchance we desist, such is the expanse of this law.
Though, I do believe that the stipulation of punishment serves to act as a boundary to this expanse by establishing that if 4 witnesses do catch two people in the act, and all 4 testify, then the punishment must be established.
Its interesting, I am just been reading about adultery in courts. They all say its one of the hardest things to prove.
This is someone explaining how the US military deals with adultery.
http//usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/adultery.htm
http//www.edivorcepapers.com/divorce-adultery/proving-adultery-in-divorce.html
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Peace,
I think there is a serious need to change the way topics are dealt with..
This is for the interest of everyone.
Because so far it looks like an arena, where everyone comes with his view and try to force it on others as being the true one, without actually reading others views.
well even if the reading is done, it is usually some minor points that end up being discussed, and then the whole topic is diluted.There is noway someone will learn from defending his view whilst locking his mind.
I know that some of us here enjoy the ego trip and feel better by scoring points..
But this is a what Satan probably always whisper to us and want us to wast time, instead of gaining knowledge..Our approach in dealing with topics has to change.. instead of diverging let's try to converge.
We all want to get to a better understanding of the Quran, the one that will drive each one of us towards good and betterment.
So let's this be our driving force, and not get our ego interfere with our mission, because it is this that will make us stick to our guns even when we know we're on the wrong.The topic of zina is an example.
can the following be considered as a valid argument?
it has always been accepted as to mean Adultery/Fornication so it must be.
if you come up with such an argument it means that you don't want to know anything new and any new findings that might point out to a better understanding will be regarded as irrelevant.
Do we think that the understanding has been preserved..Furthermore .. why bother giving examples.
Why do you always cite punishment as deterrents, are they really?
Capital punishment is still in place in the US and Saudi Arabia.. and they're still on..
prisons are full, and crimes have not yet disappeared or deterred..Oh yes children so cute and of course they would be a good argument if they're involved..
Everyone knows that there are different forms of sex and manners to prevent any children..
have you thought about lesbians and gays?
what's there punishment ?
or should they get married?I said this before, we are required to open our mind seriously and not forget that this is not a playground.
Peace
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Peace,
I think there is a serious need to change the way topics are dealt with..
This is for the interest of everyone.
Because so far it looks like an arena, where everyone comes with his view and try to force it on others as being the true one, without actually reading others views.
well even if the reading is done, it is usually some minor points that end up being discussed, and then the whole topic is diluted.There is noway someone will learn from defending his view whilst locking his mind.
I know that some of us here enjoy the ego trip and feel better by scoring points..
But this is a what Satan probably always whisper to us and want us to wast time, instead of gaining knowledge..Our approach in dealing with topics has to change.. instead of diverging let's try to converge.
We all want to get to a better understanding of the Quran, the one that will drive each one of us towards good and betterment.
So let's this be our driving force, and not get our ego interfere with our mission, because it is this that will make us stick to our guns even when we know we're on the wrong.The topic of zina is an example.
can the following be considered as a valid argument?
it has always been accepted as to mean Adultery/Fornication so it must be.
if you come up with such an argument it means that you don't want to know anything new and any new findings that might point out to a better understanding will be regarded as irrelevant.
Do we think that the understanding has been preserved..Furthermore .. why bother giving examples.
Why do you always cite punishment as deterrents, are they really?
Capital punishment is still in place in the US and Saudi Arabia.. and they're still on..
prisons are full, and crimes have not yet disappeared or deterred..Oh yes children so cute and of course they would be a good argument if they're involved..
Everyone knows that there are different forms of sex and manners to prevent any children..
have you thought about lesbians and gays?
what's there punishment ?
or should they get married?I said this before, we are required to open our mind seriously and not forget that this is not a playground.
Peace
Guys, I dont understand this person. First he argued that he can have sex with everyone as long as he does not rape them, than he argued that kids should have sex. Now he says
if you come up with such an argument it means that you don't want to know anything new and any new findings that might point out to a better understanding will be regarded as irrelevant.
Do we think that the understanding has been preserved..Something new? If its you think that everyone shall approve your new sexiest ideas about open sex markets, kids having sex, seeing you have sex with the neighbours wife etc. and than you wounder why people dont take you serious??? Well, maybe because not everyone wants to have AIDS??
Dude, you dont have any limits, thats why its hard to believe you. Secondly you dont have any evidences for your claims, keep in mind that most people are here to learn about quran.
I dont think there is something wrong with the way anything is dealt with in this forum, if you dont agree thats another case. We have admins to check that. I would suggest that you contribute to this debate by giving quranic references or other evidences to back up your claim, so that people can take you more serious.
Peace
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in my opinion Zina only happens between a Married woman and a man (doesn't matter married or not). one part should be a married woman unless its not zina, for example a relations between a married man and a single woman is not Zina.
and where I get such condition? hmm from reading these versesAnd those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked. * And those (men) who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful. * And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars. * And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars. * And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth. (244-9)
there is no mention of accusing men even from their spouses, and accusing an unmarried women (accuse only mentioned for Mohassenat not for Nessah). what do you think?
Exactly. See here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609922.msg411370#msg411370