Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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For purposes of assurance, I will repeat my above argument for the sake of its sound reasoning, and for the sake of the believers
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!
Right, but the same could be said about fornification. We know the Old Testament does not seperate between the two. Most concervative society does not seperate between the two except for males. Most honor killing in Arab societies are about fornification. Some here have translated that verse as meaning both fornification or adultery. This may make sense from a societal perspective but not a legal one. Since marriage is a legal issue while fornification is sex between two partners who are not accountable to anybody else.
One interpretation I find convincing is that Zina simply means betrayal and cheating. Having sex outside a partner you are committed to which you often have to do in hiding. She could be your legal wife or your partner. Either way the effect is the same. Matrriage generally has family and children so it tends to get uglier. I think ist a question of what marriage mean as compared to partners who are not married. In many society people could be living together and not legally married. But the consequences of cheating is almost the same. I am not sure if people can have children outside marriage. I know in Western society you can have that but its still rare.
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@ Samia,
Forgive me Samia, I didn't fully understand your reply.
Please clarify.
@ Bigmo,
Sex is the physical act of reproduction. God prohibits the performance of this act with anyone to whom you are not married.
If a person is single and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
If a person is married and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
Fornication is the English word for zinaa. God prohibits zinaa.
Adultery with sexual relations is therefore prohibited.
I apologise if I'm not being clear, there is a lot of overlap in the definitions of these words making it difficult for me to get the idea across clearly.
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@ Samia,
Forgive me Samia, I didn't fully understand your reply.
Please clarify.
@ Bigmo,
Sex is the physical act of reproduction. God prohibits the performance of this act with anyone to whom you are not married.
If a person is single and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
If a person is married and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
Fornication is the English word for zinaa. God prohibits zinaa.
Adultery with sexual relations is therefore prohibited.
I apologise if I'm not being clear, there is a lot of overlap in the definitions of these words making it difficult for me to get the idea across clearly.
I understand but would God talk about punishment for something that does not transgress in somebody else's right? Disbelieving in God and ridiculing the prophets is far worse than whatever Zina is. Yet God gave people that right to believe or to disbelieve and worship idols. He reserved their fate to Himself and not us.
So whatver Zina is it has to be something that violates somebody else's right. Adultery fits into that and in modern society partners fits into that. As Zina here will mean betrayal and cheating. So maybe Zina is adultery and cheating.
After all isn't adultery in the end cheating and an act of betrayal. It also always invokes harmful reactions. Sometimes murder. But unless it violates somebody else's right and justice than we can not perform any punishment. That is how the Koran frames its legalism. Just to sin or transgress God's command is not our job but God's. Or else we will go back to sectarian Islam where the judge acts like God's stick and the ruler as God's agent on Earth and the police like the angels recording sins. This is not the Koran and the Koran gave nobody such authority.
One of the goals of Sunni/Shia Islam was to elevate the prophetic authority (through the Sunna) to an absolute divine like authority and then to transfer that authority to the 4 Caliphs and then the road is paved to transfer that authority to Omar Al Bashir, Ahmedinijad, Mulla Omar and Al Saud and the Shabab of Somalia. Without the Sunnah that would have been impossible since the prophetic authority in the Koran is a limited authority where what man does to man is in his domian but what man does with God is God's domain. Not the prophet's domain.
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Bigmo,
You make a fair point.
Adultery does violate the right of the person whose partner is cheating. But this in no way alters the meaning of the word zinaa which is used to signify sex outside marriage, invariably. I also agree with you that zinaa is not as bad as disbelieving in God and in the prophets of God, but zinaa carries a punishment in the same way that theft carries a punishment.
Might I add that the probability of 4 witnesses catching two people in the act is hugely remote; there is little chance of such a thing happening. This leads me to believe that it is God's intention to cover up our sins and to not expose them to the public perchance we desist, such is the expanse of this law.
Though, I do believe that the stipulation of punishment serves to act as a boundary to this expanse by establishing that if 4 witnesses do catch two people in the act, and all 4 testify, then the punishment must be established.
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Bigmo,
You make a fair point.
Adultery does violate the right of the person whose partner is cheating. But this in no way alters the meaning of the word zinaa which is used to signify sex outside marriage, invariably. I also agree with you that zinaa is not as bad as disbelieving in God and in the prophets of God, but zinaa carries a punishment in the same way that theft carries a punishment.
Might I add that the probability of 4 witnesses catching two people in the act is hugely remote; there is little chance of such a thing happening. This leads me to believe that it is God's intention to cover up our sins and to not expose them to the public perchance we desist, such is the expanse of this law.
Though, I do believe that the stipulation of punishment serves to act as a boundary to this expanse by establishing that if 4 witnesses do catch two people in the act, and all 4 testify, then the punishment must be established.
Its interesting, I am just been reading about adultery in courts. They all say its one of the hardest things to prove.
This is someone explaining how the US military deals with adultery.
http//usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/adultery.htm
http//www.edivorcepapers.com/divorce-adultery/proving-adultery-in-divorce.html
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Peace,
I think there is a serious need to change the way topics are dealt with..
This is for the interest of everyone.
Because so far it looks like an arena, where everyone comes with his view and try to force it on others as being the true one, without actually reading others views.
well even if the reading is done, it is usually some minor points that end up being discussed, and then the whole topic is diluted.There is noway someone will learn from defending his view whilst locking his mind.
I know that some of us here enjoy the ego trip and feel better by scoring points..
But this is a what Satan probably always whisper to us and want us to wast time, instead of gaining knowledge..Our approach in dealing with topics has to change.. instead of diverging let's try to converge.
We all want to get to a better understanding of the Quran, the one that will drive each one of us towards good and betterment.
So let's this be our driving force, and not get our ego interfere with our mission, because it is this that will make us stick to our guns even when we know we're on the wrong.The topic of zina is an example.
can the following be considered as a valid argument?
it has always been accepted as to mean Adultery/Fornication so it must be.
if you come up with such an argument it means that you don't want to know anything new and any new findings that might point out to a better understanding will be regarded as irrelevant.
Do we think that the understanding has been preserved..Furthermore .. why bother giving examples.
Why do you always cite punishment as deterrents, are they really?
Capital punishment is still in place in the US and Saudi Arabia.. and they're still on..
prisons are full, and crimes have not yet disappeared or deterred..Oh yes children so cute and of course they would be a good argument if they're involved..
Everyone knows that there are different forms of sex and manners to prevent any children..
have you thought about lesbians and gays?
what's there punishment ?
or should they get married?I said this before, we are required to open our mind seriously and not forget that this is not a playground.
Peace
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Peace,
I think there is a serious need to change the way topics are dealt with..
This is for the interest of everyone.
Because so far it looks like an arena, where everyone comes with his view and try to force it on others as being the true one, without actually reading others views.
well even if the reading is done, it is usually some minor points that end up being discussed, and then the whole topic is diluted.There is noway someone will learn from defending his view whilst locking his mind.
I know that some of us here enjoy the ego trip and feel better by scoring points..
But this is a what Satan probably always whisper to us and want us to wast time, instead of gaining knowledge..Our approach in dealing with topics has to change.. instead of diverging let's try to converge.
We all want to get to a better understanding of the Quran, the one that will drive each one of us towards good and betterment.
So let's this be our driving force, and not get our ego interfere with our mission, because it is this that will make us stick to our guns even when we know we're on the wrong.The topic of zina is an example.
can the following be considered as a valid argument?
it has always been accepted as to mean Adultery/Fornication so it must be.
if you come up with such an argument it means that you don't want to know anything new and any new findings that might point out to a better understanding will be regarded as irrelevant.
Do we think that the understanding has been preserved..Furthermore .. why bother giving examples.
Why do you always cite punishment as deterrents, are they really?
Capital punishment is still in place in the US and Saudi Arabia.. and they're still on..
prisons are full, and crimes have not yet disappeared or deterred..Oh yes children so cute and of course they would be a good argument if they're involved..
Everyone knows that there are different forms of sex and manners to prevent any children..
have you thought about lesbians and gays?
what's there punishment ?
or should they get married?I said this before, we are required to open our mind seriously and not forget that this is not a playground.
Peace
Guys, I dont understand this person. First he argued that he can have sex with everyone as long as he does not rape them, than he argued that kids should have sex. Now he says
if you come up with such an argument it means that you don't want to know anything new and any new findings that might point out to a better understanding will be regarded as irrelevant.
Do we think that the understanding has been preserved..Something new? If its you think that everyone shall approve your new sexiest ideas about open sex markets, kids having sex, seeing you have sex with the neighbours wife etc. and than you wounder why people dont take you serious??? Well, maybe because not everyone wants to have AIDS??
Dude, you dont have any limits, thats why its hard to believe you. Secondly you dont have any evidences for your claims, keep in mind that most people are here to learn about quran.
I dont think there is something wrong with the way anything is dealt with in this forum, if you dont agree thats another case. We have admins to check that. I would suggest that you contribute to this debate by giving quranic references or other evidences to back up your claim, so that people can take you more serious.
Peace
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in my opinion Zina only happens between a Married woman and a man (doesn't matter married or not). one part should be a married woman unless its not zina, for example a relations between a married man and a single woman is not Zina.
and where I get such condition? hmm from reading these versesAnd those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked. * And those (men) who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful. * And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars. * And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars. * And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth. (244-9)
there is no mention of accusing men even from their spouses, and accusing an unmarried women (accuse only mentioned for Mohassenat not for Nessah). what do you think?
Exactly. See here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609922.msg411370#msg411370