Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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It is funny to see this discussion. Some people here namely woman-haters Fahad and Obour are trying to convince people that only married women should be punished for having sex with another man, while married men should not be punished for having sex with another woman and similary anti-woman statements can be found among with the followers of the hadiths who claim that when a woman is being raped she is the one to punish for adultery.
However, other people here are trying to justify fornication and adultery by claiming that God nowhere says that you cannot cheat your wife or husband or that you can not have a one night stand and that he certainly did not said that by saying 'zina'. These are typical sexual active people who somehow tryes to justify their sex engagements by demanding sexual freedom in the name of the Quran. Very few people here tries to actually understand what God is telling us.Peace,
Am not convinced that the Word Zina is sex related, this has been the traditional understanding, and we are tying to fit it while it doesn't make sense.Quran is common sense, specially for crime and punishments.
When there is a crime, a punishment equivalent is decided and presented to the victims victims to decide.Now is sex a crime?
If it is how can you go on and prove it.
Are we supposed to walk 4x4 on the street just in case we might stumble on some one having sex?
and then we approach them and enquire about their identities, and see whether they are married to each other or not? maybe by checking a wedding certificate?
Would I need then to forge one every time I engage with my extramarital adventures?As you can see this doesn't make sense!
Sex isn't a crime and this is why God "told" us it's better for both of us to keep faithful..
It is not something like a Police has to enforce it!Secondly, in a small village it easy to guess who is doing who..
But in a big city like Sao Paulo, how are you going to check it out?Every now and then 4 people turn up at the door and enquire about who are you with and what are you doing and .. etc..
I mean all this zina talk doesn't make sense realy..
I think we should look with a different eye, as if we never heard this word Zina before..not try to assume it is sex.. and then we try to come up with excuses like what the Hadith lovers like doing, when they want o justify something that has no sense to begin with by inventing idealistic preconditions.. for instance.. they will be punished only if they had enough money to get married!We are in society where children below the age of 15 engage in sex.. are you saying that these children we got to flog them 100 each for discovering something natural.??
The more brains there are the better explanation God will reveal to us.
Peace sex and Love. ;D
So you mean that there is no illicit sex in Islam? that one nights stands and casual sex, pornography etc. are all fine? And that 15 years old kids having sex is okay?
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So you mean that there is no illicit sex in Islam? that one nights stands and casual sex, pornography etc. are all fine? And that 15 years old kids having sex is okay?
Look I think it's better to breath, relax and then read carefully, is there any where where in my post I said what you're deducting?
Sex in it self is not a bad thing, when both part are consensual and private
Rape on the other hand is non consensual and it is a crime.
Paedophilia is crime too, it is regarded as rape because the under aged. in question is unable to comprehend what is going on.What is illicit sex? and where did I say that it is ok to have it.?
I give you a clear example so that you can start and think about it and also try to understand what am trying to point at.
The Quran states that you cannot marry your sister for example.
Now, if some one does just that, what does the Quran say about the punishment.regards
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Look I think it's better to breath, relax and then read carefully, is there any where where in my post I said what you're deducting?
Sex in it self is not a bad thing, when both part are consensual and private
Rape on the other hand is non consensual and it is a crime.
Paedophilia is crime too, it is regarded as rape because the under aged. in question is unable to comprehend what is going on.What is illicit sex? and where did I say that it is ok to have it.?
I give you a clear example so that you can start and think about it and also try to understand what am trying to point at.
The Quran states that you cannot marry your sister for example.
Now, if some one does just that, what does the Quran say about the punishment.regards
So when quran mentions illicit sex than quran means rape according to you ?
So you mean that all consenting sex is fine, does it include adultery, fornication and one night stands ? -
foralgerian
The Quran states that you cannot marry your sister for example.
You are contradicting yourself. First you said that unmarried people can have sex with each other and now you say that you cannot have sex with your sister because the quran says that you cannot MARRY her But marriage is not a requirement of sex according to you, so how does quran ban sex between siblings when it only bans MARRIAGE between siblings? So by your own logic, you can have sex with your sister if she consents to it - you can just not marry her. tempt
Sex-liberators in-the-name-of-God like you, somehow, always contradict themselves.
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The Koran can only order the prophet to inflict any form of punishment if someone commits something AGAINST another. Like murdering, slandering, stealing etc. Thats it the only time the Koran allows people to interfere.
So Zina has to be adultery for both husband and wife. The Koran also says that people should not commit zina except with their spouses or MMA. MMA to me is a concubine. Concubine is the same as a wife but without the dowry and usual rituals.
Basically its talking about cheating and betraying someone else. Its a VERY serious matter and can be a huge fitna in people's life. Many people were killed, homes destroyed, families seperated and trust destroyed because of it.
Its not a joke. Most of all it causes pain. Hence the emphasis in the Koran on lashing and pain. An eye for an eye. However that punishment is symbolic in many cases as the verses are really there to deal with slandering. They have to produce four witnesses. Thats a tough thing to do. Meanwhile the acused can always lie under oath. Since most people would lie anyways when facing pain. Its human nature to lie to stop pain. Lashing is intense pain.
Slandering in many societies leads to murder(honor killings) and can make people falsely accuse others. You never really will know how a person will react when faced with betrayal of this sort.
I have been watching some videos about people getting caught cheating. Its not pretty.
http//www.metacafe.com/watch/442607/guy_films_himself_cheating_and_gets_caught/
http//www.break.com/index/wife-caught-cheating.html#
There is even worse, where a guy tries to stab and kill someone. But the villagers stopped him but beat up the cheating guy bad. He probably knew she was someone's wife.
By wipping him with a stick. yes
Thats Koranic justice for you.
I will try to post that one if I can get that link again. Thats when I realized its not a joke, especially in Eastern societies.
Some more Koranic justice yes
http//mytings.net/video/cheating-husband-beaten-up-by
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The Koran can only order the prophet to inflict any form of punishment if someone commits something AGAINST another. Like murdering, slandering, stealing etc. Thats it the only time the Koran allows people to interfere.
So Zina has to be adultery for both husband and wife. The Koran also says that people should not commit zina except with their spouses or MMA. MMA to me is a concubine. Concubine is the same as a wife but without the dowry and usual rituals.
Basically its talking about cheating and betraying someone else. Its a VERY serious matter and can be a huge fitna in people's life. Many people were killed, homes destroyed, families seperated and trust destroyed because of it.
Its not a joke. Most of all it causes pain. Hence the emphasis in the Koran on lashing and pain. An eye for an eye. However that punishment is symbolic in many cases as the verses are really there to deal with slandering. They have to produce four witnesses. Thats a tough thing to do. Meanwhile the acused can always lie under oath. Since most people would lie anyways when facing pain. Its human nature to lie to stop pain. Lashing is intense pain.
Slandering in many societies leads to murder(honor killings) and can make people falsely accuse others. You never really will know how a person will react when faced with betrayal of this sort.
I have been watching some videos about people getting caught cheating. Its not pretty.
http//www.metacafe.com/watch/442607/guy_films_himself_cheating_and_gets_caught/
http//www.break.com/index/wife-caught-cheating.html#
There is even worse, where a guy tries to stab and kill someone. But the villagers stopped him but beat up the cheating guy bad. He probably knew she was someone's wife.
By wipping him with a stick. yes
Thats Koranic justice for you.
I will try to post that one if I can get that link again. Thats when I realized its not a joke, especially in Eastern societies.
Some more Koranic justice yes
http//mytings.net/video/cheating-husband-beaten-up-by
I have the same understanding as you. A man can only be intimate with his wives or concubines just like a woman can only be intimate with her husbands or her male concubines(MMA). However, even that should be avoided if your society only accepts monogomous marriages like in the Western Society where a man and woman only can marry one. Breaking the laws of your country for sexual lust is unquranic.
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http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE4gGtpcGno voodoo
I found that African guy video. Viewer discretion is adviced. But it was Koranic justice if I ever saw one. Just shows that God knows human nature.
Now this kind of response is devilish. Very disturbing but shows why adultery is dangerous and makes people sometimes ready to kill without thinking. Viewer discretion is adviced
http//www.break.com/usercontent/2006/12/20/bike-racer-caught-cheating-198063 &
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Peace
Consider that zina is one in Arabic. In English we have a distinguishment between adultery and fornication.
There is no such distinction in Quran.
If your heart says it's not right, don't do it. You may go ahead and do it but then you will feel it.
Peace
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Peace
Consider that zina is one in Arabic. In English we have a distinguishment between adultery and fornication.
There is no such distinction in Quran.
If your heart says it's not right, don't do it. You may go ahead and do it but then you will feel it.
Peace
Dig this. She beat him up right.
http//dumpalink.com/videos/This-Guy-got-Caught-Cheating-on-his-Girl-6fd7.html rotfl
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Dig this. She beat him up right.
http//dumpalink.com/videos/This-Guy-got-Caught-Cheating-on-his-Girl-6fd7.html rotfl
yay yay yay lol THATS excately what should happen with men who cheat on their girlfriends.. these pigs only understand this language bravo bravo bravo bravo
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I was in an marriage that was 10 yrs plus 4 yr dating. He had affairs.. I can not EXPRESS the hurt and pain. Never could I trust him again, looking at him made me want to vomit. He was my first, so it hurt even more. It tore my family apart and my children landed in therapy. One day we were laughing in the car. The next night he came home to ALL his stuff thrown out in the middle of the yard. He denied everything, but I am not stupid, I talked to the people he cheated with. Imagine the embassament of getting an AIDS Test and STD test and explaining the situation, which was more than a "normal" affairs. Besides, pictures speak a thousand words, they also hold up in court!
Having the one you love and trust with another is so painful. Hence why almost did not come into islam due to Polygamy. I knew I would kill someone. Him having a second wife is still equal to an affair to me, just worse because I KNOW what you are doing with her. I would go insane, I can't ever let myself experience that pain again. I promised myself for it was almost the end of me. As a Muslim female, I just thought I would never be able to put my gaurd down, always being nervous if he was thinking of another or wanted another wife or MMA.
It took me FOREVER to trust the male gender, and Islam does not make it easy to trust the man with all their free reign of sex (in some sunni's versions of islam). Maybe it is my fault for veiwing intamacy as a very sacred thing, which is why I waited till I was married. You don't feel it is so sacred and worth waiting for when this happens.
If a man can't stand his wife with another, what makes him think she can stand to see him with another? Don't they say a women is more emotional than a man?
Sorry guys.
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I was in an marriage that was 10 yrs plus 4 yr dating. He had affairs.. I can not EXPRESS the hurt and pain. Never could I trust him again, looking at him made me want to vomit. He was my first, so it hurt even more. It tore my family apart and my children landed in therapy. One day we were laughing in the car. The next night he came home to ALL his stuff thrown out in the middle of the yard. He denied everything, but I am not stupid, I talked to the people he cheated with. Imagine the embassament of getting an AIDS Test and STD test and explaining the situation, which was more than a "normal" affairs. Besides, pictures speak a thousand words, they also hold up in court!
Having the one you love and trust with another is so painful. Hence why almost did not come into islam due to Polygamy. I knew I would kill someone. Him having a second wife is still equal to an affair to me, just worse because I KNOW what you are doing with her. I would go insane, I can't ever let myself experience that pain again. I promised myself for it was almost the end of me. As a Muslim female, I just thought I would never be able to put my gaurd down, always being nervous if he was thinking of another or wanted another wife or MMA.
It took me FOREVER to trust the male gender, and Islam does not make it easy to trust the man with all their free reign of sex (in some sunni's versions of islam). Maybe it is my fault for veiwing intamacy as a very sacred thing, which is why I waited till I was married. You don't feel it is so sacred and worth waiting for when this happens.
If a man can't stand his wife with another, what makes him think she can stand to see him with another? Don't they say a women is more emotional than a man?
Sorry guys.
I share your same view except for the killing part.lol. I personally would not like having a spouse who has another husband. In any case I do not believe that polygamy is a necessary practice for males today since women are considered equals to males (when compared to the past this wasn't so). Today women (with children) are quite capable of taking care of themselves without being discriminated by society. The survival of women and children was the main reason why God allowed Polygamy in the first place. It was not meant to satisfy mens appetites but it was meant to be used to protect widows with children from poverty and death. Woman with children back then could not have survived ( or fully operate freely) in a society where they were constantly discriminated against. So in order to protect the women and children, polygamy was allowed.
At present there are many ways that a believing male can provide for widows with children without having to marry them. Polygamy is not needed anymore. This is an extinct practice that is not necessary in a society that respects women and treats them as equals.
Most "muslims" (especially among the Sunnis),abuse polygamy. Polygamy is not meant to be used for a man to have multiple sex partners. It is used to protect widows and fatherless orphans from poverty and death in an environment where women are discriminated against
42 Give the orphans their money; do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money, for truly it is a great sin!
43 If you fear that you cannot be just to fatherless orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from the women, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair then only one, or whom you already have contract with. So that you do not commit injustice and suffer hardship.
Polygamy is not needed any more since there are many ways to provide for orphans and women without resorting to marriage.
Peace,
Kevin.
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Kevin, I agree with you 100%. There was a time and place for it.
But did mean kill, well ok, serious a$$ whooping then, how is that?
Not a serious a$$ whooping nope . It has to be a gentle one . Believers are suppose to set examples for others to follow so a gentle a$$ whooping is more acceptable than a serious one.lol.
Peace,
Kevin
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Addition to last post
God has already given the punishment for adultery...
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment.
In a Monotheistic society (that follows the Quran) the above punishment is sufficient to punish the adulterer. As difficult as it may be for spouses of adulterers to withhold there anger it is more prudent in the long run that they exercise piety and uphold the rules that God has given us. Yes , I would like to see my adulterous spouse get more than 100 lashes (more like 1000 + ) but not at the expense of disobeying God. This life is temporary. Anything that the righteous lose in this life they will get back seven fold and more in the hereafter.
Peace,
Kevin.
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Addition to last post
God has already given the punishment for adultery...
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment.
In a Monotheistic society (that follows the Quran) the above punishment is sufficient to punish the adulterer. As difficult as it may be for spouses of adulterers to withhold there anger it is more prudent in the long run that they exercise piety and uphold the rules that God has given us. Yes , I would like to see my adulterous spouse get more than 100 lashes (more like 1000 + ) but not at the expense of disobeying God. This life is temporary. Anything that the righteous lose in this life they will get back seven fold and more in the hereafter.
Peace,
Kevin.
That punishment mentioned in the Koran was not intended on adulterers as much as it was for slanderers. In Arab society, accusation of adultery against a wife usually means death by her own family. They call it honor killing and it is the standard practice in nearly all Arab societies. Notice the verse focussed on slandering women. Even if the husband accuses his spouse he needs to swear and she swears and most people will lie when faced with lashing. Only a strong person can handle this.
In the Koran we have Moses telling his people to kill themselves after their worshipping of the calf. Yet God forgave them because who can kill himself. Sometimes punishments are made to send a message but are not a practical means of applying law. Adultery can mean many things, break down in communication, bad habits in the past, unhappiness, and also lack of integrity. People cheat for many reasons. This reuqires a specialits or a family therapist or something. Lashing won't do much in any case since even after the punishment the issue will not go away.
A person needs four witnesses or else he can get flogged. Its made in such a way to scare people from talking about something like this even if he actually saw something.
Lashing is intense pain but it does not substitute for adultery. Adultery is not just a day or two of pain, its much more long lasting. It also a home breaker and leads to violence in most cases, especially when the woman cheats.
2.54. And remember Moses said to his people "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves ; that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness) For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.
4.153. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.
Moses spelled the proper punishment but not all punishments are made to be apllied by people. Humans are weak.
We know that in the Gospel, Judas took his life after realizing his mistake in betraying Jesus and diobeying him. Judas never intended it to go this far but he trusted the Pharisees. After realizing his mistake he did the right thing and hanged himself. But Judas had the strength to do that. Most people can not kill themselves even if they wanted to. And most people will lie when facing a whip, even if they don't want to lie. ts human nature to run away from pain. Like the people who jumped out of the WTC when faced with fire and heat.
In case of adultery than the verse about an arbitrer to settle a dispute is more useful.
My two cents.
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That punishment mentioned in the Koran was not intended on adulterers as much as it was for slanderers. In Arab society, accusation of adultery against a wife usually means death by her own family. They call it honor killing and it is the standard practice in nearly all Arab societies. Notice the verse focussed on slandering women. Even if the husband accuses his spouse he needs to swear and she swears and most people will lie when faced with lashing. Only a strong person can handle this.
I really don?t care what is customary in Arab Society, killing yourselves is forbidden in the Quran.
In the Koran we have Moses telling his people to kill themselves after their worshipping of the calf. Yet God forgave them because who can kill himself. Sometimes punishments are made to send a message but are not a practical means of applying law. Adultery can mean many things, break down in communication, bad habits in the past, unhappiness, and also lack of integrity. People cheat for many reasons. This reuqires a specialits or a family therapist or something. Lashing won't do much in any case since even after the punishment the issue will not go away.
This is not true. No prophet will ever tell anyone to kill themselves!!!!! Please do not try to compare Moses to Jim Jones!!! It?s insulting!!!! Killing yourselves is forbidden!!
429 O you who acknowledge, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade, which is mutually agreed by you. Do not kill yourselves; God is Compassionate towards you.
254 Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged yourselves by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and face yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Compassionate."
Moses was telling the people to KILL THEIR EGOS and not themselves. Killing your ego is a path that leads to righteousness.
In addition 242 is a practical law. THE QURAN IS CLEAR.
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment.
Any person who says otherwise is either misinterpreting the Quran or twisting the scripture to suit there own benefit. In an Monotheistic society that follows the Quran alone if four witnesses witness an adulteress act and then accuses someone of adultery then it binding upon the believers to administer this punishment. Now we all know that most governments will not allow us to implement a punishment like this. However I do believe they will be a time in the future where God laws can be implemented without the fear of repercussions. Till then we must use other measures. However just because we can't implement a punishment doesn't mean that it is forbidden. God?s law is clear. When the time comes God's law will be implemented without fear and repercussions.
Peace,
Kevin
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Goodmorning all
I have been thinking about this alot lately, mainly because I have four kids and one day when they reach puberty I have to make a choice how to approach their raging hormones.
The Quran teaches us to investigate, never forget our curiousity and obligation to seek the truth. If we follow this in our faith we will per default follow this in our wordly lives. In our jobs we will strive to become better, if you are an engineer, computer geek or doctor you will strive to find a better construction method, better programming method or better medicine. In our social lives as well, become better friends, break down the barriers between people etc.
When a kid discovers there is something called the opposite sex (s)he needs to also investigate, discover and become more wise. (S)he needs to learn by making mistakes, needs to get heart broken a few times in order to learn what true love is all about. So when it is time for the kid to become an adult, take responsibility and commit to another person (s)he will hopefully know who is the right one for her/him.
Therefore, when my kids come home (in about 40 years) with their new boyfriend/girlfriend I must bite the bullet and let them make the mistakes that they will make, otherwise they will not learn anything. I cannot hide them from the world and demand they are virgins when married. All I can do is to make sure they are with another person for the right reason, love. I need to explain to them that eventhough they are only 40 years old (ok, probably more like 14) they still have the same obligations as an adult. If the youngsters are truly in love and they feel this relationship is going to last forever, am I to stop them just because I know the relationship is probably going to last only a few months and end with tears and broken hearts? To me, that sounds like a scholar telling me I don't need to read the Quran because he has all the answers already, he will tell me what is written.......
Now, taking this into account, what is the Quran punishing with 100 lashes or house-arrest? Young people learning about love or those who break commitments?
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The thing is that objectively speaking, manu relationships that do not last forever, are in fact marriages. But people fear marriage, as if it was marriage that makes things last and is serious, but what is serious is the relationship, and whether it lasts or not, it is still marriage. So, if homrones play havoc, but an honest havoc, it is still marriage. It owuld not be marriage it it wasn't a relationship but an act without acknowledgement of any relationship.
On the other hand, Emirl, four witnesses are required. Your hypothetic children would have to be real lustful wretches to fish for witnesses when being at it.
I agree that that part of sura An-nur is very secifically directed at salnderers. The number of ayas dedicated to them and what they say against the few ayas dedicated to actual zina make it very clear. And most particularly it points to the targetting of women for slander an wreckage.
It is a fact that people can maniulate and twist anything to suit their whims, and ignore anything that doesn't suit them. We should not blame the Qur'an for that, but those who are blind to it.
Salaam