Can muslim actors do kissing scenes?
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Peace
I think in some films kissing and even having full on sex scenes would make the film more realistic, better and perhaps even of more artistic value BUT also a film in which someone actually kills someone for real would add to the film's realism and originality. Its not about what improves the films its about the limits it should necessarily have.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the idea of kissing scenes and I think in cases they do improve films but there is possibility that sin can come out of it. Just like with the internet and other good things which need to be done or used responsibly.
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Thankis again for all the answers.
As for sex scenes they will hopefully not be a problem. Most of the scenes are today so 'blurry' and dark that nobody would notice if there was a body double instead of me. The exception would be if it was really graphic (like in the newly released Blue Valentine).But what are your opinions on sex scenes where there's actually no intimacy or nudity (or kissing) involved, like in the movie 'The Town'? In this scene, the man is shown sitting on a chair face-to-face with the woman on his lap, while she goes up and down. The camera only shows waist-and-up, and they are fully dressed. It is not known whether their parts touch (shouldn't be a problem, there are many scenes where shy actors put several layers of pillows between them).
And therefore there is nothing wrong with dry humping - it's not forbidden.
Is there not a quranic verse stating that we won't be judged by our actions, but rather the intentions behind them? Your example would be quite different if that happens to be the case.
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Is there not a quranic verse stating that we won't be judged by our actions, but rather the intentions behind them? Your example would be quite different if that happens to be the case.
I was alluding to the attitude that just because the quran remains silent on a specific issue, there are no moral considerations. I find this to be utterly false.
I understand your dilemma, and I pray Allah guides you to the best outcome.
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And therefore there is nothing wrong with dry humping - it's not forbidden.
I think it comes under lewdness (fahisha) and so it is forbidden.
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I was alluding to the attitude that just because the quran remains silent on a specific issue, there are no moral considerations. I find this to be utterly false.
I understand your dilemma, and I pray Allah guides you to the best outcome.
If it's not prohibited in the Quran, what authority do we have to prohibit it on our own? Is this no implying that the book is incomplete?
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Peace Captain Awesome
There are verses that remind that God is aware of what is in our hearts. So obviously God is aware of our intentions. Considering the attributes of God (most understanding and most just) I'd say intentions are certainly taken into account. As for the example you gave, I think the right and wrong of it depends on the intention of the film makers. Are they trying to add realism, artistic value emotion, passion etc to the film or just arouse the audience sexually. Whatever their intentions, i honestly don't think it wrong for an actor to take up such scenes provided his intentions are not wrong. Full out sex scenes i'd say are prohibited but the scene you mentioned in "the town" i'd say is fine. It's an imitation where in which the actual prohibited act does not take place. Murder is quranically prohibited but not pretend murder if you get what i'm saying.
You can pretend to have sex with someone and you can pretend to kill someone. So long as you don't do the act or be unreasonable in your attempts to imitate the act.
Please explain how you decided that dry humping someone who is not your spouse is fahisha but kissing that someone is not.
Peace Mushu
Is your question regarding real life or film sets?
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Peace Mushu
My subjective feelings tell me dry humping is lewdness and kissing is not. I think kissing can be done without or with very little sexual intent but dry humping is more less all sexual intent thus lewdness and thus quranically prohibited.
If we were to hypothetically say there is no sexual intent in kissing, would you consider it acceptable?
What do you think of holding hands? -
I should add that i am speaking of kisses that do not involve tongues but are on the lips. I say this because i have never had the experience of kissing someone and sticking my toungue in their mouth thus i can't say whether lust is involved or not. Although by the sounds of it does so im against the act unless of course with Zawj or MMA of the right sort.
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But what are your opinions on sex scenes where there's actually no intimacy or nudity (or kissing) involved, like in the movie 'The Town'? In this scene, the man is shown sitting on a chair face-to-face with the woman on his lap, while she goes up and down. The camera only shows waist-and-up, and they are fully dressed. It is not known whether their parts touch (shouldn't be a problem, there are many scenes where shy actors put several layers of pillows between them).
Is there not a quranic verse stating that we won't be judged by our actions, but rather the intentions behind them? Your example would be quite different if that happens to be the case.
Peace,
I watched The Town, so I know of the scene you speak of. As is typical in Hollywood as far as I am aware, the genitals don't touch (they use something to protect the actors). And just as you pointed out, many stars use body doubles/camera tricks for racy scenes, etc.
Yes, 2225 and 463.
I agree that intent is the key component.
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Peace nimnimak
I should add that i am speaking of kisses that do not involve tongues but are on the lips. I say this because i have never had the experience of kissing someone and sticking my toungue in their mouth thus i can't say whether lust is involved or not. Although by the sounds of it does so im against the act unless of course with Zawj or MMA of the right sort.
Captain Awesome's concern is that he will land a lead role and will have to do a kissing scene. I'm sure we all understand the concept of a lead role.
My subjective feelings tell me dry humping is lewdness and kissing is not.
Okay, let's analyse this position.
I think kissing can be done without or with very little sexual intent but dry humping is more less all sexual intent thus lewdness and thus quranically prohibited.
The act of dry humping can most certainly be done without sexual intent. Don't believe me? Next time you see your friend, try dry humping his leg and see if you get aroused. If you can make it to his leg without him punching you in the face, I think you'll find that the act itself can be performed regardless of your sexual intent. Therefore, it is not quranically prohibited. See what I did there?
My point is about moral considerations. The argument is that kissing someone who is not your spouse is acceptable as long as your intent is correct. Yet none of you would go around kissing people in the mouth for a past-time or as an act of friendliness. I already offered Leyna earlier in this thread, so it's only fair I offer you if me and you met, could we kiss in the mouth as a greeting? No sexual intent of course - I don't swing that way. If not, why not? Remember, we're not gay so there will be no sexual intent in the act. I just want to taste your spit and wrestle with your tongue for a few brief seconds.
I agree that all actions are based on intentions, but let's for a moment analyse the act itself.
Tongue wrestling your spouse in public is fahisha, agreed?
So why would tongue wrestling someone else on set no longer be fahisha? Simply because the intent is different?
In that case, we can argue that a muslim can be an adult entertainer, based on the fact that the intention is not that of zina.
The act of kissing someone in the mouth almost always has a sexual undertone, which is why on screen kisses only happen between people who are sexually involved. Even those sad farewell kisses are between characters who are romantically involved. They don't happen between best friends, for instance. I can't remember Frodo and Sam kissing in LOTR. There are a few exceptions, like when Michael kissed Fredo in Godfather II, but that was a kiss of death.
If we were to hypothetically say there is no sexual intent in kissing, would you consider it acceptable?
By definition, exchanging bodily fluids with someone is sexual. I can't see any way around this. If we could purge the act of any sexual intent you still wouldn't kiss me. Why oh why nimnimnak, why won't you kiss me?
What do you think of holding hands?
The question is, 'is it immoral to hold someone else's hand?' I don't think so, but here is where you use your moral compass. If you are holding hands with someone who might start developing feelings more than what you intend, is it moral to hold that person's hand? The answer is no. Is it moral to hold a woman's hand in public whom you are not married to? Is this a public show of affection that could be misinterpreted? This is what I mean by moral considerations. Just because the quran remains silent about something, it doesn't then follow that there are no moral considerations.
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Captain Awesome
Please read below taken from a blog by Ziauddin Sardar. I don't know who he is but what he writes must be contemplated
The other word-art is poetry. Poetry was the traditional artform of the Arabs and the Qur'an notes that Muhammad was seen by many people as a mad poet, rather than a messenger of God. While such slight references again explain why traditional purist condemn poetry as arrogant human presumption, motivated by the Qur'an's challenge to unbelievers of the impossibility of producing a text comparable to its poetry.
Nevertheless poetry, the search for concision of use of words to express emotion, ideas and feeling remains a vibrant art form across the Muslim world, a popular oral art form enjoyed by the majority, rather than the preserve of elite.
Each Muslim country has its own tradition of music, poetry, dance, art, and theatre - all take their inspiration, directly or indirectly, from the Qur'an. In creative arts, as in everything else, the Qur'an's overall message is of balance and moderation. The function of art in Islam is to provide objects of aesthetic contemplation that generate an intuition of the truth, give meaning and purpose to our lives and force us to think about ourselves and our society. Aesthetic, reflective beauty is not something that has to be confined to rarefied objects we call "art"; it is something that can be transmitted equally through common objects such as plates, lamps, candlesticks, vases, doors and windows. A work of art is, in the Islamic parlance, something to wonder about. It points the viewer not towards what God is not but what God is.
In other words. If your artistic expression as an actor promotes what God is, then you should express yourself. In this case if a kiss would promote Love, and God is certainly Love, then not only is it allowed but applauded.
If you however as a person cannot control yourself and start dry-humping the poor girl eventhough it's not in the script, then you should be aware that Allah commands you to control yourself. -
Peace Mushu
My subjective feelings tell me dry humping is lewdness and kissing is not. I think kissing can be done without or with very little sexual intent but dry humping is more less all sexual intent thus lewdness and thus quranically prohibited.
Dry humping is not lewd. It is boring. Kissing however is yummy! tempt......my subjective feeling.
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Dry humping is not lewd. It is boring. Kissing however is yummy! tempt......my subjective feeling.
Yup... Other than salat, I can't think of any act more pure and blissful.... Kissing is so beautiful, sooo.. soo natural... words can't express it! One can never get tired of it... Certainly the purest form of love... whether it be kissin ur wife, baby, mom or puppy sun
Ofcourse the most enjoyable is with your partner.... I love this quote by Victor Hugo
How did it happen that their lips came together? How does it happen that birds sing, that snow melts, that the rose unfolds, that the dawn whitens behind the stark shapes of trees on the quivering summit of the hill? A kiss, and all was said. -
Peace Mushu
Captain Awesome's concern is that he will land a lead role and will have to do a kissing scene. I'm sure we all understand the concept of a lead role.
Thats what i also think is his concern.
The act of dry humping can most certainly be done without sexual intent. Don't believe me? Next time you see your friend, try dry humping his leg and see if you get aroused. If you can make it to his leg without him punching you in the face, I think you'll find that the act itself can be performed regardless of your sexual intent. Therefore, it is not quranically prohibited. See what I did there?
I see what you did. Considering i'm a guy, dry humping a guy would not arouse me but still the act is wrong. Thats your point right?
Firstly if I suddenly do an act like that to someone randomly without them knowing, they will obviously be not happy about it. That in itself is prohibited by the Quran UNLESS PERHAPS i had no idea that they would dislike the act, find it weird and so on. If I was to go and hug a friend whom i know hates hugging because she is say very allergic to hugging, it is my wrong to go and hug her for i am knowingly causing her pain. If i didn't know this, it would not be wrong.My point is about moral considerations. The argument is that kissing someone who is not your spouse is acceptable as long as your intent is correct. Yet none of you would go around kissing people in the mouth for a past-time or as an act of friendliness. I already offered Leyna earlier in this thread, so it's only fair I offer you if me and you met, could we kiss in the mouth as a greeting? No sexual intent of course - I don't swing that way. If not, why not? Remember, we're not gay so there will be no sexual intent in the act. I just want to taste your spit and wrestle with your tongue for a few brief seconds.
If both you and I are comfortable with the act and there is no sexual intent and we have reasonably concluded that it is not a transgression, then it's ok. Obviously if we conclude it to be a transgression, it goes against the Quran.
I agree that all actions are based on intentions, but let's for a moment analyse the act itself.
Tongue wrestling your spouse in public is fahisha, agreed?
Not sure. I would classify it as transgression rather than fahisha. But one meaning that fahisha entails is transgression but i think it entails unlawaful acts of a sexual nature or transgression in sexual acts. Feeling up my spouse in public is a transgression because it is in public. There is nothing wrong with the sexual act itself nor is it forbidden between me and my spouse where as perhaps extreme sexual fetish acts with my spouse would entail fahisha. Hence why i don't consider it as fahisha. It's just a transgression in public and no fahisha IMO
So why would tongue wrestling someone else on set no longer be fahisha? Simply because the intent is different?
In public, the case is that there are people who will not want to see such things (families for example) But in a movie in which the rating is given, people know what they are going to see. So that part of the transgression is takien out. Yes the intent is different hence why it's not fahisha even if the two actors are not couples. Consider this
In a film an actress needs to slap the actor. In an attempt to bring realism to the film, the director convinces the actor to get slapped and the actress to slap the actor HARD. Do you see wrong in this? Do you see wrong in me slapping you without your permission? Do you get my point?
In that case, we can argue that a muslim can be an adult entertainer, based on the fact that the intention is not that of zina.
No we cannot. You can imitate zina but you cannot commit it. Zina is strictly forbidden.
The act of kissing someone in the mouth almost always has a sexual undertone, which is why on screen kisses only happen between people who are sexually involved. Even those sad farewell kisses are between characters who are romantically involved. They don't happen between best friends, for instance. I can't remember Frodo and Sam kissing in LOTR. There are a few exceptions, like when Michael kissed Fredo in Godfather II, but that was a kiss of death.
By definition, exchanging bodily fluids with someone is sexual. I can't see any way around this. If we could purge the act of any sexual intent you still wouldn't kiss me. Why oh why nimnimnak, why won't you kiss me?
Because i would be unconfortable with the act. Also i would consider it a transgression.
The question is, 'is it immoral to hold someone else's hand?' I don't think so, but here is where you use your moral compass. If you are holding hands with someone who might start developing feelings more than what you intend, is it moral to hold that person's hand? The answer is no. Is it moral to hold a woman's hand in public whom you are not married to? Is this a public show of affection that could be misinterpreted? This is what I mean by moral considerations. Just because the quran remains silent about something, it doesn't then follow that there are no moral considerations.
Moral considerations are part of the Quran. It is not directly written You shall not drink poison. But is entailed in don't kill yourselves. Similarly. The concepts of justice, injustice, transgression and so on are what bring about moral considerations. They are definately Quranic.
By the way i may not reply after this post till tuesday. As my exmas will finish on tuesday.
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Dry humping is not lewd. It is boring. Kissing however is yummy! tempt......my subjective feeling.
Fair enough. Subjective feelings are subjec to change
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I see what you did. Considering i'm a guy, dry humping a guy would not arouse me but still the act is wrong. Thats your point right?
Yes.
Firstly if I suddenly do an act like that to someone randomly without them knowing, they will obviously be not happy about it. That in itself is prohibited by the Quran
Hmm, I feel you're avoiding the main point. Is the act right or wrong? Let's say both of you are completely comfortable with dry humping each other and neither of you have any homosexual tendencies you would just like to innovate a new kind of greeting, cos handshaking is so boring. Is it okay to meet at a cafe and dry hump each other for a few seconds?
If both you and I are comfortable with the act and there is no sexual intent and we have reasonably concluded that it is not a transgression, then it's ok. Obviously if we conclude it to be a transgression, it goes against the Quran.
Which is the topic of discussion.
Not sure. I would classify it as transgression rather than fahisha. But one meaning that fahisha entails is transgression but i think it entails unlawaful acts of a sexual nature or transgression in sexual acts. Feeling up my spouse in public is a transgression because it is in public. There is nothing wrong with the sexual act itself nor is it forbidden between me and my spouse where as perhaps extreme sexual fetish acts with my spouse would entail fahisha. Hence why i don't consider it as fahisha. It's just a transgression in public and no fahisha IMO
Fine, but a transgression nonetheless.
In public, the case is that there are people who will not want to see such things (families for example) But in a movie in which the rating is given, people know what they are going to see. So that part of the transgression is takien out.
That's like saying people who visit porn sites know perfectly well what they are about to see, which therefore alleviates the charge of transgression from the actors.
Foreknowledge of what is happening makes no difference to the act itself. Similarly, if you and your wife make out every morning at the local cafe, and every regular at the cafe knows this, does it somehow make the behaviour of you and your wife any more acceptable?
Yes the intent is different hence why it's not fahisha even if the two actors are not couples.
Sorry, your conclusion did not follow from your argument.
No we cannot. You can imitate zina but you cannot commit it. Zina is strictly forbidden.
Why have you switched your argument? I quote ?Yes the intent is different hence why it's not fahisha even if the two actors are not couples.? Now simply replace the word fahisha with zina and you get a consistent argument. Why one moral position for fahisha (or transgression, whichever way you wish to label it) and one for zina? Allah has forbidden both in the quran.
Because i would be unconfortable with the act. Also i would consider it a transgression.
But not a transgression if there is a camera pointing at us?
By the way i may not reply after this post till tuesday. As my exmas will finish on tuesday.
Actually bro, I won't be replying to this topic any more anyway. Nothing to do with you, I'm just finding I waffle a lot on this forum these days!
May Allah make your exams easy for you.
Peace.
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Peace Mushu
Hmm, I feel you're avoiding the main point. Is the act right or wrong? Let's say both of you are completely comfortable with dry humping each other and neither of you have any homosexual tendencies you would just like to innovate a new kind of greeting, cos handshaking is so boring. Is it okay to meet at a cafe and dry hump each other for a few seconds?
The wrongness of the act depends on the context. Cafe is public and that kinda greeting is out of order in public. If not in public and HYPOTHETICALLY we had some random urge to try out such a thing for the sake of humour, then no there is nothing wrong with it.
That's like saying people who visit porn sites know perfectly well what they are about to see, which therefore alleviates the charge of transgression from the actors.
Porn is different. It's only purpose is to sexually arouse the viewer as strongly as possible. This is not neccessarily the case with a sexual scene in a film.
Foreknowledge of what is happening makes no difference to the act itself. Similarly, if you and your wife make out every morning at the local cafe, and every regular at the cafe knows this, does it somehow make the behaviour of you and your wife any more acceptable?
It is not about forknowledge. It is about respecting the public and not transgressing it's boundaries. The answer to your question is no. It is not about whether they know this. It is about whether they are comfortable and ok with it. If hypothetically i know for certain that they are, then depending on the level of making out going on it could be completely ok IMO.
Sorry, your conclusion did not follow from your argument.
Why have you switched your argument? I quote ?Yes the intent is different hence why it's not fahisha even if the two actors are not couples.? Now simply replace the word fahisha with zina and you get a consistent argument. Why one moral position for fahisha (or transgression, whichever way you wish to label it) and one for zina? Allah has forbidden both in the quran.
But not a transgression if there is a camera pointing at us?
It's not about the camera pointing at us. It's about what the purpose of what the camera is trying to capture and what the intention of the actors are. There is nothing wrong with killing someone you don't know, nothing wrong with hitting your wife being racist and so on.
The only thing that makes them right or wrong are the circumstances. For all the above exmaples i can think of cases where in which the person carrying the action is justified in their action.
Actually bro, I won't be replying to this topic any more anyway. Nothing to do with you, I'm just finding I waffle a lot on this forum these days!
May Allah make your exams easy for you.
Thanks bruv
Time on these forums is time spent well i think. You can teach something or get taught something by posting and reading the posts of others.