No ritual salat?
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Dont ask me...ask the submitters movement or quranists who hold that there is a ritual prayer.
We muslims follow Allah and his messenger and pray like the prophet did.
Peace
So, are you in agreement that it is impossible to get the exact and precise detail of how the majority of Muslims pray just from the Quran? I mean, the detail which you feel is present in the non Quranic hadith?
Haven't you then answered your own question (with regards to people who the Quran only)?!
Bearing this in mind, do you think you can be a Muslim if you follow only the Quran(there can only be a yes/no answer)?
By the way, with regards to your last sentence, I also believe I follow God and his messenger, but the difference between me and you is that I trust God's words and believe them to be complete and fully detailed as He states, whereas you follow the historical recollections of men and elevate them to the status of God's revelations (and in fact above).
1015 shows Muhammad followed ONLY 'what was revealed unto him'.
619 is one verse which shows that it was the Quran which was revealed unto Muhammad.
1015
Transliteration Wa-itha tutla AAalayhim ayatuna bayyinatin qala allatheena la yarjoona liqaana i/ti biqur-anin ghayri hatha aw baddilhu qul ma yakoonu lee an obaddilahu min tilqa-i nafsee in attabiAAu illa ma yooha ilayya innee akhafu in AAasaytu rabbee AAathaba yawmin AAatheemin
Y.Ali But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say 'Bring us a reading other than this, or change this,' Say 'It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).'
R.Khalifa When our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet us say, 'Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!' Say, 'I cannot possibly change it on my own. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day.'
Pickthal And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, they who look not for the meeting with Us say Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad) It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day.
Shakir And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
Literal And if Our signs/verses evidences are read/recited on them, those who do not hope/expect meeting Us said "Come/bring with a Koran other than that or exchange/replace it ." Say "(It) is not to me that I exchange/replace it from my self/spontaneously/willingly that I follow except what is inspired/revealed to me, that I fear if I disobeyed my Lord (from) a great day's torture."619
Transliteration Qul ayyu shay-in akbaru shahadatan quli Allahu shaheedun baynee wabaynakum waoohiya ilayya hatha alqur-anu li-onthirakum bihi waman balagha a-innakum latashhadoona anna maAAa Allahi alihatan okhra qul la ashhadu qul innama huwa ilahun wahidun wa-innanee baree-on mimma tushrikoona
Y.Ali Say 'What thing is most weighty in evidence?' Say 'Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?' Say 'Nay! I cannot bear witness!' Say 'But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him.'
R.Khalifa Say, 'Whose testimony is the greatest?' Say, 'GOD's. He is the witnes between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preac it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that ther are other gods beside GOD.' Say, 'I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry.'
Pickthal Say (O Muhammad) What thing is of most weight in testimony? Say Allah is Witness between me and you. And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach. Do ye in sooth bear witness that there are gods beside Allah? Say I bear no such witness. Say He is only One Allah. Lo! I am innocent of that which ye associate (with Him).
Shakir Say What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say I do not bear witness. Say He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
Literal Say "Which thing (is) greater (in) testimony/certification ?" Say "God (is an) honest witness between me and between you (P), and (it is) transmitted/revealed to me this the Koran, to warn you with it and who (was) reached (informed); that you are witnessing/testifying (E), that with God, (are) other Gods." Say "I do not witness/testify." Say "But He is one God, and that I am innocent from what you share (with God)." -
Peace
You had written previously <<Look...this question is always ask yet many continue to deny. In many verses GOD link bow and protration to submission and worship
O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed.
Ruku and sujud do not just mean bow and prostrate. They also mean be humble and submit (mentally etc). It is not as simple as you make, IMO.
You also wrote << That is why we see clear evidence of salat ritual prayer in religions BEFORE THE KORAN!
Such evidences are not from God. I am therefore not interested in them with regards to what God has to say about salat.
You then wrote <<Like i state early, people who deny the ritual prayer must first deny (1) ALL PREVIOUS SCRIPUTE because all there "neo" defintion contradiction all, (2) Histroical evidence (3) mathematical proof etc etc etc.
IMO the old testament and new testament are what the hadith are to Islam - innaccurate and historical recollections/wishes of men. Again, it comes down to what the Quran SPECIFICALLY SAYS on the matter (IOW, not remnants of lost sciptures/alleged mathematical 'evidences').
<<You know what Roshan...show me one verse in the Koran that testify that salat is not a ritual prayer?>>
3356 Inna Allaha wamala-ikatahu yusalloonaAAala alnnabiyyi ya ayyuha allatheenaamanoo salloo AAalayhi wasallimoo tasleeman
Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Unless you are accussing God of idol worship that is...............
Roshan
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Roshan
Ruku and sujud do not just mean bow and prostrate. They also mean be humble and submit (mentally etc). It is not as simple as you make, IMO.
it is that simply. you know it means bow and protration. YOu "intrepreted it" as submit and yield or whatever.
Such evidences are not from God. I am therefore not interested in them with regards to what God has to say about salat.
of courses you are not interested. you want to deny salat. Remember look what the koran said about human history and how He encourage us to learn from it. (66)
IMO the old testament and new testament are what the hadith are to Islam - innaccurate and historical recollections/wishes of men. Again, it comes down to what the Quran SPECIFICALLY SAYS on the matter (IOW, not remnants of lost sciptures/alleged mathematical 'evidences').
that strange, because GOD actually want us to use it as refernce and He has a high value for them. (625, 164, 217). It funny how you call the previous scripture hadith yet GOD calls them HIS book we (believers) must believe in(4215). But like i said, you haave to deny it to prove that salat is not a ritual prayer.
BTW, scriptures (old, new testaments) during muhammed is the same today.
Unless you are accussing God of idol worship that is...............
Look at the verse again 3356.
Khalifa
GOD and His angels help and support the prophet. O you who believe, you shall help and support him, and regard him as he should be regarded.Yusuf Ali
God and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.Pickthal
Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.Shakir
Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.Sher Ali
Allah sends down HIS blessings on the Prophet and HIS angels pray for him. O ye who believe, you too should invoke HIS blessings on him and salute him with the salutation of peace."Progressive Muslims"
God and His Angels counsel the prophet. O you who believe, you shall counsel him, and agree completely.Do you know what is funny, this verse only prove the salat in this context mean encourage. Yet i have
(1) over 60 verse in the koran
(2) God previous scriptures
(3) historical facts
(5) consitency in ALL GOD SCRIPTURESthe only thing you present is denial.
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peace and salaam to all
THE RITUAL PRAYERS ARE A MOCKERY OF ALLAH AND BLASPHEMOUS
A MUSLIM in his RITUAL PRAYER standing before Allah in a devout frame of mind RECITES THIS to Allah
THE FIRST PART
In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
All praise unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds. The Compassionate, the Merciful. Sovereign of the Day of Requital. THEE ALONE do WE worship and of THEE ALONE do WE seek help. Guide US THOU unto the path straight. The path of those whom THOU hast favoured. Not of those on whom is indignation brought down, nor of the astray. 11/2/3/4/5/6/7
TO WHOM THE MUSLIM IS ASKING FOR HELP AND TO WHOM HE IS RECITING THIS VERSE CERTAINLY TO ALLAH
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS THE MUSLIM RECITES
THE SECOND PART
In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful
The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things DIVERTS YOU, until YOU visit the graves Nay! YOU shall come to know! Again, YOU soon shall know! Lo! Would that YOU knew now with the surety of knowledge! Verily, YOU shall see the BLAZING FIRE (Hell)! And again, YOU shall SEE it with certainty of sight! Then, on that Day, YOU shall surely be ASKED of the delights. 1021/2/3/4/5/6/7/8.
OR
And separate yourselves this Day, O ye culprits! "Did I not enjoin on YOU O ye children of Adam that YOU should not worship Satan; for that he was to YOU an enemy avowed? And that YOU shall worship ME; this is the straight path? "But he did lead astray a great multitude of YOU. Did YOU not then understand? THIS IS HELL, which YOU were PROMISED! Burn therein this Day, for that YOU used to disbelieve. 3659/60/61/62/63/64
TO WHOM THE MUSLIM IS GIVING WARNING OF HELL AND TO WHOM HE IS RECITING THIS VERSE CERTAINLY TO ALLAH
MUSLIMS SHOULD PONDER OVER THEIR PRAYERS
COMPARE THE TWO PARTS OF THE PRAYER, BOTH BEFORE ALLAH AND BOTH TO ALLAH
In the first part believer is believer and Allah is Allah, but in the second part the believer becomes Allah and Allah becomes the believer.
The Muslim is reciting the quran to whom, to Allah, who HIMSELF has descended it for the benefit and guidance of the mankind.
The Muslim in his SECOND PART of the PRAYER says this to Allah
THIS IS HELL, which YOU were PROMISED! Burn therein this Day, for that YOU used to disbelieve.
DID ALLAH ENJOIN ON THE BELIEVERS SUCH FORM OF BLASPHEMOUS PRAYERS
DID ALLAH EVER COMMAND THE BELIEVERS TO RECITE THE QURAN TO HIM?
thanks
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hafeez kazi
i dont know what you are talking about. only the first chapter ONLY is recited in salat. only the first chapter testify to the 19 miracle when said out-loud in arabic.
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dear SHM
Please read the words in CAPITAL LETTERS
The motions of the prayer are as follows
- Standing with the feet only slightly apart, the worshiper raises his arms to the level of his ears, palms open forward, and declares out loud Allahu akbar. This raising of the hands to the level of the head needs to occurs only at this first takbir. This opens the prayer. Then the hands are placed at the sides, or clasped right over left at the waist above the navel, or clasped at the center of the chest, or above the heart. All of these have precedents in the Sunnah of the Prophet, may peace be upon him. In this standing position, the worshiper pronounces the fatihah, which may or may not be preceded by the basmalah. At the end of the fatihah, the worshiper says amin. If there is an lmam, and the fatihah has been said out loud, this amin is pronounced as a response by the congregation. In the first two raka'at of the prayer (but not in subsequent raka'at),
AFTER THE FATIHAH SOME VERSES FROM THE QURAN ARE RECITED.
This ended, the worshiper then says Allahu akbar (this is always said aloud), and bows, placing his hands upon the knees.
AFTER THE FATIHAH ANY SURAH FROM THE QURAN IS RECITED.
SALAAT DESCRIBED IN YOUR RECOMMENDED SITE
thanks
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dear SHM
Please read the words in CAPITAL LETTERS
The motions of the prayer are as follows
- Standing with the feet only slightly apart, the worshiper raises his arms to the level of his ears, palms open forward, and declares out loud Allahu akbar. This raising of the hands to the level of the head needs to occurs only at this first takbir. This opens the prayer. Then the hands are placed at the sides, or clasped right over left at the waist above the navel, or clasped at the center of the chest, or above the heart. All of these have precedents in the Sunnah of the Prophet, may peace be upon him. In this standing position, the worshiper pronounces the fatihah, which may or may not be preceded by the basmalah. At the end of the fatihah, the worshiper says amin. If there is an lmam, and the fatihah has been said out loud, this amin is pronounced as a response by the congregation. In the first two raka'at of the prayer (but not in subsequent raka'at),
AFTER THE FATIHAH SOME VERSES FROM THE QURAN ARE RECITED.
This ended, the worshiper then says Allahu akbar (this is always said aloud), and bows, placing his hands upon the knees.
AFTER THE FATIHAH ANY SURAH FROM THE QURAN IS RECITED.
SALAAT DESCRIBED IN YOUR RECOMMENDED SITE
thanks
The information presented on that site on salat here is incorrect. Only the fatihah is recite. it is illogical to recite any other surah because the audience for other surah is not GOD. God gave us the fatihah as a gift, the is why it is the only surah (i know of) that express the koran mathemtical miracle when recited out loud (which is proof the salat is a ritual prayer) and the audience is GOD. if you want correct information on this visit http//submission.info/practices/salat/
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Dear SHM
I am very surprised at your knowledge on the prayers.
I am a resident of a middle east country from where Islam emerged and spread. I had been to saudi on hajj and I have prayed in more than 200 mosques around the world, but still I have not come accross any mosque in which prayers are offered by only reciting surah fatihah. In every prayer the Imam recites surah fatihah and other surah of the quran.
Have you ever prayed SALAAT AL TARAWIH offered in the month of RAMADHAN.
In this prayer the whole quran is recited throughout the month and finished by the 27th night of RAMADHAN.
please do not believe in mathematical codes it will astray you.
thanks
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Dear SHM
I am very surprised at your knowledge on the prayers.
I am a resident of a middle east country from where Islam emerged and spread. I had been to saudi on hajj and I have prayed in more than 200 mosques around the world, but still I have not come accross any mosque in which prayers are offered by only reciting surah fatihah. In every prayer the Imam recites surah fatihah and other surah of the quran.
Have you ever prayed SALAAT AL TARAWIH offered in the month of RAMADHAN.
In this prayer the whole quran is recited throughout the month and finished by the 27th night of RAMADHAN.
please do not believe in mathematical codes it will astray you.
thanks
if you show me "SALAAT AL TARAWIH" in the koran i will. but there is no such thing. i am aware people recite the hold quran, but like i said, it is illogical due to the target auidence beig address in other surahs. I personally believe that reciting more than one chapter in salat was a tradition to memeroize the koran.
please do not believe in mathematical codes it will astray you.
why would you say such a statement? i am guessing you dont believe in the koran miraclous mathematical struture?
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Peace. I've justed joined this forum, becuase i am very confused with this concept of prostrating to the kaba. From the way I see it, adding the word iqamah in front of salaat doesn't change its meaning, and when the Quran says in 56 'when you rise for your comitments, wash your faces... ' I don't see this as ablution. This could well ber comething you do when you wake up, and get ready to go to work. I must make clear that I am not certain whether 'AIDID' (lets mention him by name shall we, so if he is out there he might come out and engage in some kind of discussion) is right or not, but I don't think prostrating to the kabah isn't some kind of idol worship. Lets use common sense. If the guy tell us not to do idol worship, isn't it a bit risky to and face a stone building to reach God, which other idol worshipping religions do, but even they say they are making their statues etc. their focal points. And the verse (can't remember exactly where) where he tells us how we used to look up at the sky, so he gave us a pleasing direction. please let me state my view on this. It could well be that we uised to actually look up at the sky in despair, and so God gave us this system to live by, which is pleasing to us, becuase it gives us a 'direction in life' instead of hopelessness. And the verse regaerding the three times of salaat, where it mentions sunrise, sunset, and the adjacent partof the night, it could well be that we are supposed to observe Gods laws throughtout sunrise, sunset, and the adjacent parts of the night during which we are awake. Another point is that how do we know where the kaba is, it could be anywhere, becuase from what i have read, it does say that the 'kaba' is in mecca (Then again I might have missed something out D ) I must stress that i am not perfectly sure about this issue, so I welcome any positive/negative criticism. Peace be to all who seek the truth. Its Natu on the line.
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Another point is that how do we know where the kaba is, it could be anywhere, becuase from what i have read, it does say that the 'kaba' is in mecca (Then again I might have missed something out D ) I must stress that i am not perfectly sure about this issue, so I welcome any positive/negative criticism. Peace be to all who seek the truth. Its Natu on the line.
Peace Natu
There is a very good article, I think by Layth, on 'hajj'. His knowledge of the Quran on this issue is very good, as is his ability to view the issues without prejudice.
Roshan