Why Quran only is not a viable alternative to mainstream Islam(Sunnism)
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peace,
Welcome.
I will be brief
- Many ayats are repetitions.
In every day life, it is common for people to be told or reminded multiple times, before they heed a message. Also, sometimes the repetitions are used as an explanatory tool.
- Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?)
"kafir" is a descriptive word meaning to deny/conceal/cover, ungrateful, reject.
Why so many threats? Maybe because people dont listen? Maybe because its true?- Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..)
We need specifics, so we can examine what is "fairy tale" about them. Please select one or two.
- Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !)
Does vast collection of do's/dont's = more right?
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm -
Salaam to all.
I love this site yay bravo I learn so much and I am so grateful to Allah swt for guiding me here. Thanks everyone for being so brilliant!Simone sun
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Peace Citizen
You must be someone that is not only very brave but someone very in touch with his feelings to be able to write the post you did. Its not often that someone is able to be so honest about how vulnerable they feel.
I understand from your post that you are rejecting sunnism, and are skeptical about Quran only as well. I hope you stay around this forum long enough to learn more about what Quran only is about, to make a truly informed decision.
I don't envy people who never lose faith in the belief system they were brought up in, because then they never question it either. Most of us here are very lucky even if we sometimes feel like the outsider in the larger muslim community.
Theres lots of people here that will talk to you without judgement
Kukumber
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Hi all! Thanks for all your posts, I will try to respond to some of the questions posed, but let me first make it clearer peace
Offtopic (I don't speak german in my daily life, but I speak the closely related Dutch).
I reject/don't believe it anymore Sunni Islam. Probably due to the same reasons as the Qur'anists here reject Sunni(or perhaps Shia) Islam.(Contradicting, downward stupid/racist hadiths, the extreme dogmatism and relying on appeal to authority etc etc ). So, let's try to look at Qur'an only, - in which case we are (literally) left with just this book, the Qur'an.
Now, the problem is that I can't see anything divine in this book.Really. Sure, there is good poetry in it, there might be usefull guidances and advices, but really nothing divine or special, while it is supposed to be a very special book.. (A side note, I know some Arabic..)I can write a book,- anyone can, - and in it I can include lots of usefull guidance about how to live a happy life, how to make this world a better place, I can even include some hints and tips on how to discover the beauties, the mysteries of this universe we live in etc etc, but whatever good advice which it might contain it won't be divine ..
Well, "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" as said by the legendary astronomer Carl Sagan, and I would like to concurr with it.
There isn't any. Not a single shred of "evidence" that this book is divine. (I am sorry, I am not that well informed about Quran-only, but I presume you also reject the miracles like inshiqaq-i qamer (splitting of the moon?).)
Just a book.. By and for seventh century arabia.Now, I know about the works of Edip Yuksel and the whole hype about nineteen. But really, numerology is so fake, not at all convincing. Sorry, but I couldn't get convinced by the whole 19 thing either. Neither by "scientific miracles" ( Not sure whether you ever appeal to such evidences, though) Big bang was in the Qur'an, and many many related "miracles". No need to explain, you all have heared about it I suppose.
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates. Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
... I regard Qur'an-only as the last stop before total apostasy..
PS I am here on this forum as you guys are MUCH more kind and welcoming regarding apposing views contrary to dogmatic Muslims.Addition I have the impression that Quranists( I know it sounds deragatory, but you get the point) desperately want to hold on to their idealized view of Muhammed as being a very kind, civilized, smart person, also by now era's standards. As a consequence, they consider all hadiths which says that, e.g. , he ordered a stoning, he ordered the killing of 900 Jews of Banu Qurayza, he made racist/sexist remarks about women, he married a nine year old girl, etc etc, as being unreliable. Indeed, a true prophet of God would never do those.
However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..! -
Dear all,
This is my first post. I have been pondering about religion in general,- I would like to identify myself with being a skeptic. My parents/environment are all Sunnis, and quite devout. Ofcourse, the same nuances are also present in Sunnism(There are certain hadiths which are accepted by some, but seen fabricated by others.). Islam as I was taught by my parents was Sunni/Hanefi/Naqshbandi Islam, - the doctrines of a certain Naqshbandiyya , quite orthodox, religious tariqat(=sect, nearly cult I would say) originating in Turkey..In other words Extremely conservative, and all others are destined for Hell. (Quranists are seen even worse than Kuffaar(=non Muslims) as you consider yourself Muslim, while clearly(to many) you are not.)
Anyway, my problem as mentioned in the topictitel is the following Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an. The following are just simpel observations I made about the Qur'an
- Many ayats are repetitions.
- Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?)
- Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..)
- Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !)
------ and I could go on.
As I can't see myself believing in the tenets of Islam,- even the most naked version of it, I have even lost the possibilty of becoming a "Qur'anist".
Kind regards,Welcome cosmos I think I recognized you.any ways welcome again handshake
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Hi Citizen,
I'm disappointed by your reply, but I will respond once again.
I can write a book,- anyone can, - and in it I can include lots of usefull guidance about how to live a happy life, how to make this world a better place, I can even include some hints and tips on how to discover the beauties, the mysteries of this universe we live in etc etc, but whatever good advice which it might contain it won't be divine ..
You could, but I highly doubt it. For starters, see http//www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf
I am not that well informed about Quran-only
I can tell by your statement such as
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates. Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
I think you will find "Quran only" is nothing new. For starters, see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
Secondly, "Quran only" is on the rise, and rather significantly I might add.However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..!
Yes, it is a possibility, but we go by weighting of evidence. You might find this site useful
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com -
Hi Citizen,
I'm disappointed by your reply, but I will respond once again.
Hi Wakas, I am sorry to have disappointed you, but I tried to be honest. Look, you say that Quran-only is on the rise, but I don't know, - numbers don't prove the veracity anyway.
Indeed, I am already labelled an "atheist" here, which I find offensive due to the connotations associated with this word. My mindset can be summarized as being confused,- confused and disappointed about the problems of mainstream (Sunni) Islam, while Quran-only seems like an attempt to fix the incurable problems...And the method is quite effective I have to admit Just throw away(almost literally) those problems..!(=Hadith, Sunni understanding)
Now, I can begin rambling and start listing the commong objections like " How can u know how to pray without hadith?", because you are obviously not in the mood of answering those over-answered questions. But yet, the problems of basing a whole religion on just, solely a single book , a book about which I have adressed a few problems with it, just seems insurmountable. In fact, this naked Islam with which you are left with doesn't differ that much from Deism.Concerning the site you gave(misconceptions about Islam)
It can't be said that I was impressed by the arguments presented on that site, at least for the few articles I glimpsed at. Take for instance
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htm
.. in which only the few verses are taken which appear to be in favor. However, there are tons of verses which very clearly talk about the severe punishments which awaits kuffaar. And that they will dwell therein for ever(ebedan).You know, I don't think Qur'anists are being honest when they keep interpreting verses to mean something different, while there is a clear meaning (the meaning as given by mainstream Islam)
For instance "khalideenaa feehaa ebedan" is , I guess, translated by Qur'an only to mean "for very long", instead of the more straighforward "for ever, till eternity".
Or take the word "k-f-r". Literally meaning "to cover up", but used for people, while well-read about Islam, still reject it. This would include apostates. Would this make me a kafir? Because literally speaking I (nor the majority of other non-Muslims) don't conceal the truth, I am just pretty much agnostic about a personal God, hence also about the scriptures. -
Now, the problem is that I can't see anything divine in this book.Really.
There isn't any. Not a single shred of "evidence" that this book is divine.
What exactly were you expecting to find in a divine book?
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates.
I'm sure you would agree that it is irrelevant what almost all other muslims think, unless you equate mass appeal with truth.
Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
Quran alone is Islam. This isn't a fad or a movement. What we know as traditional Islam is the 'alternative', and the corruption of what is a universal message.
However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..!
There's nothing desperate about it... we say about him what the quran says about him. That is the ideology and the method of how we approach matters of faith and religion. We maintain that he was kind and an upright person because that's what the quran says. We reject that which is in contradiction with that.
... I regard Qur'an-only as the last stop before total apostasy..
I found this statement rather odd. You seem to be trying to believe in God through a rational process yet simultaneously rejecting the kitaab because it doesn't contain a divine flavour, which you're trying to discern rationally. Again, what were you expecting from a divine book and how did you come up with this criteria rationally?
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Hi Citizen,
Concerning the site you gave(misconceptions about Islam)
It can't be said that I was impressed by the arguments presented on that site, at least for the few articles I glimpsed at. Take for instance
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htm
.. in which only the few verses are taken which appear to be in favor. However, there are tons of verses which very clearly talk about the severe punishments which awaits kuffaar. And that they will dwell therein for ever(ebedan).Are you implying "kuffar" is equal to "people of the book"?
You know, I don't think Qur'anists are being honest when they keep interpreting verses to mean something different, while there is a clear meaning (the meaning as given by mainstream Islam)
For instance "khalideenaa feehaa ebedan" is , I guess, translated by Qur'an only to mean "for very long", instead of the more straighforward "for ever, till eternity".Guess? ??? It would mean "forever" or however long "hell" lasts.
Or take the word "k-f-r". Literally meaning "to cover up", but used for people, while well-read about Islam, still reject it. This would include apostates. Would this make me a kafir? Because literally speaking I (nor the majority of other non-Muslims) don't conceal the truth, I am just pretty much agnostic about a personal God, hence also about the scriptures.
If one believes in God or The Quran, they will obviously do deeds described in it. This confirms their belief-position.
If you read The Quran and reject it, and then you do acts against what it says, this confirms your belief-position as a "kuffar".
I assume you have read The Quran?
Instead of skipping points, I recommend actually studying them. A book you might find interesting
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm -
Instead of skipping points, I recommend actually studying them. A book you might find interesting
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htmFrom Tolu-e-Islam site
As far as ahaadith are concerned, Tolu-e-Islam considers all those ahaadith as true which are in accordance with the Quran or which do not stain the character of the Prophet (P) or his companions (R).
Tolu-e-Islam does not belong to any political party nor does it belong to any religious group or sect (it has nothing to do with the sect known as Ahle-Quran). Also, it does not want to create any new sect because such acts of creating sects in Deen are Shirk. Tolu-e-Islam does not advocate any change in the way different sects in the Ummah are practicing the five pillars. In fact, it adheres to the same practices. Tolu-e-Islam seeks to propagate the Quranic teachings so that the system of "Khilafat ?Ala Minhaj-e-Risalat" is once again established.
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If you read The Quran and reject it, and then you do acts against what it says, this confirms your belief-position as a "kuffar".
Oh sure I've read the Qur'an from cover to cover. In arabic, and in my native language, Turkish.
Oh well, I pretty much live according to the book as many of the advices of the Qur'an apply nowadays too. Anyway, just a few rules are left when we discard the ahadith. Anyway, even though I don't really believe the Qur'an to be the holy book of God, I applaud the Qur'an-only movement as you are breaching through the thick barriers of statusquo, dogmatism and intellectual laziness. I repeat my point about you cherry picking those verses which seem to support your point,- I laughed out loud at their bizarre way they interpreted the "cut off their hands" verse as meaning something totally different, while it really IS clear.... I mean.. rotfl -
Hi Citizen,
I laughed out loud at their bizarre way they interpreted the "cut off their hands" verse as meaning something totally different, while it really IS clear.... I mean.. rotfl
I'm glad you laughed, because I anticipate I'm about to have a big laugh myself. But first, please answer 4 simple questions based on the above
- If the verb second form denotes intensity and frequency of action and is used more times to mean a physical cut than the first form, why use the first form (less intense) in 538?
- Why is it in 1231 it used the more intensive second form verb and "hands" together, yet it does not mean "cut off"?
- Why is it when lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment , but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many consider this punishment to be worse?
- What punishment is given in the only example of a theft punishment in The Quran is it hand(s) being cut off?
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I will adress those points later(I am sleeping now),- however even if it is indeed as you claim not cutting of hands but some minor sanction, it is STILL laughable, as all those Muslims had it wrong, and not a little bit wrong, but TOTALLY wrong. (Anyway, traditional Muslims won't even try to respond to those 4 points u made, as they have the hadith in which these, and other penalties, are explained in detail. )
Yet, this book claims to be absolutely clear.. So we'd still be left with something uncomfortable and nagging..
I mean.. It is just pathetic that ALL those thousands of ulemaa all had it completely wrong... And here we are back at one of the strongest arguments of traditional Muslims.. Appeal to authority. -
just some thoughts
What brings you to the forum?
Seerah is biography; its relevance is historical.
No one denies that there is good hadith, even Quran says it is the best hadith 3923
Authority of ulema? They have their opinions and their place theyre not law binding.
Madhabs are an innovation, if you wanna go by madhabs theres over 4, read the history about it just because 4 is practiced and indoctrinated today doesnt mean that's the be all end all.
You might not agree with Quran and that is solely your choice and you will be accountable for your actions.
Your observations are simply an opinion of your perspective again i think you should be more open minded without being offensive and attacking and recognising that the so called apparent naked version might not be what you think. Can you explain this naked version, what makes you so sure this understanding is right? Im curious
BTW Evidence is to be sort for, its not spoon fed or put on a platter for you.
Also your understanding of islam i.e. possibility of prophet married 9 yr old bla bla. You claim you reject hadith but you still hold on to views largely supported by opinion. The idea of her being 9 years old is disputed even amongst traditionalists. so why do you want to hold on to hearsay?
before making absolute claims and totally rejecting peoples perspectives because it might seem laughable or odd, try and digest it.
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Addition I have the impression that Quranists( I know it sounds deragatory, but you get the point) desperately want to hold on to their idealized view of Muhammed as being a very kind, civilized, smart person, also by now era's standards. As a consequence, they consider all hadiths which says that, e.g. , he ordered a stoning, he ordered the killing of 900 Jews of Banu Qurayza, he made racist/sexist remarks about women, he married a nine year old girl, etc etc, as being unreliable. Indeed, a true prophet of God would never do those.
However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..!You are projecting. That is what you feel yourself, and you seem to be unwilling to grasp that anybody can feel any different.
You expect too much from the Qur'an in the sense that you in fact expect some more sunni or shia, or whatever stuff, where you are told absolutely everything and you do not want to think anything for yourself, and if the Qur'an doesn't come up with something short of magic you think there is nothing to it. Of course there is nothing to it, except the uncountable times it asks humans to reflect, ponder, think, question... What did you expect? A computer encyclopedia where you look up a word and you get everything you need? Of course the Qur'an won't give you that. Life will give you that in its own time, as you go on living, not taking any orders from you. There is nothing in the Qur'an more marvelous than what is in existence. If you do not see any signs in everything that exists, in existence itself, then don't bother to look for anything in the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells you to reflect on the signs outside and inside. If you do not want to do that, or you don't get anything out of doing it, then that is your problem, if it is a problem for you.
As to the eternity of hell and all that, it is really useless to go on round and round about it. Man is incapable of grasping such a thing as eternity, it can never be anything other than a mere word to stress a duration longer than we bear to think, and besides, only God is eternal, nothing else can be eternal. Neither paradise nor hell. And as far as I am concerned, and what I get when I read those expressions in the Qu'an concerning hardened evil doers is merely what we all say about hardened criminals let them rot in jail, or let them rot in hell. Pretty straight forward and colloquial. What do we know about what is beyond or how will one feels, or what will the time concept be or whether there will be anything like time? How will omelettes be after death? it is useless to try to make a coherent world on something whose substance totally escapes us. Who says "abadan" means eternity? Abadan is abadan, eternity and eternal hell are christian concepts. I doubt that that is a Quranic concept or a concept that was intrinsic to Arabic at the time of revelation. More like what I say, rot in hell, that is, live in hell long enough or deep enough to to taste you own evilness, to grasp where you went wrong and feel sorry for it. Or what else does rot in jail mean? Realise that what you did to others can be done to you. You are putting into the Qur'an the whole load of Christian teological tradition and culture. Are you absoutely sure that it belongs in the Qur'an? That traiditionalists put the same christian reading is no wonder either, for what was there at the time the Qur'an was revealed? Obviously many, many christians. Is it a wonder that contamination from it, from zoroastrianism, from Judaism took place, as later there has also been contamination fom hinduism, etc.? Plenty of stories that make the rounds among muslims are clearly not from the Qur'an and even contradict it. So how come they are so taken for granted by muslims even though there is no way that they come from the Qur'an or that they are even not compatible? Becuse they were around, have been arount and got around and inside the Mulims culture. Why tose stories can get incorporated in Muslims culture and not eternal hell? Do not think that I am trying to convince you of anything. I know nobody is gong to convince you. You rather want to be reassured that youa re right in not believing, and not be convinced, and it is not my business, but these occasions are good to go through some themes and may be get more clarity those who want it.
At any rate, excuse me if I am blunt, but what you are doing looks to me like mental masturbation. You are getting nowhere but you seem to need some witnesses for your not getting anywhere. Why? We have no miracles to show you nor are we going to tell you "that's ok, you are right, in fact there is nothing divine about the Qur'an, it is a human writing and we are gullible and we are just kids that need being patted and deluded. As the Qur'an says, you have your religion, we have ours, whatever you have as religi?n or even if you do not call it religion. But it is yours and it is you problem, not ours. So, feel as much disappointed with Qur'an as you please, but there stops the buck, everybody is not disappointed so that you have company. It seems that we are a few that are not disappointed with the Qur'an and find clarity in it.
Salaam
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Greetings and peace, all group
It is true that Islam based on Qur'an only is simpler than that of different schools of thought. Monotheism is based on a simple structure that only relates to what we need to know to please the Highest Power.
If a person believes that a Highest Power exists, and that the Highest Power gives or has given instructions for people to follow, wouldn't those instructions be easy to follow? Religion boils down to the golden rule. Simple, but sublime. For those with questions--"Have you appealed directly to the Highest Power for clarification and help?"
Does a thing have to be complicated to make it true? Who would wish for complication in such an important matter?! What untruths are in AQ? I find AQ to be extremely logical--very appealing.
All are welcome on this site, regardless of beliefs. ;D Participation is optional, beliefs are individual, and the wish to live in a manner that pleases the Highest Power is universal. sun
May Allah increase us all in faith and useful knowledge.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I remember a time when I asked a lot of questions. A lot. I wasn't an atheist. But had a lot of questions about the Koran and such. I was listening to neuroanatomy lecture when what I heard struck me as I remember reading the same exact thing in the Koran. Considering the time and age, without question no man could've written the Koran as simply people did not have the knowledge then as we do now. I am yet to read any poetry or book by men that even comes close to matching the language of the Koran.
By the way, being a sci-fi fan of star trek and such, I questioned if it was some alien who well came up with all this book to scare people into behaving. I questioned God's wisdom, knowledge....If God was all knowing, surely He would've known how people will react if a baby spoke from the cradle, and then grew up to cure leprosy, bring the dead to life and then question Jesus? Why bother with all these scriptures? My questions were many....
and there was even a time when I threw the Koran aiming for the garbage (was in a really bad place in my life full of anger, hurt, pain etc) questioning God's characteristics. 'blasphamous rumor' by depeche mode was a song that listened to over and over again.
needless to say, I did not come to accept the Koran easily as the word of God. And I will be the first to bear witness to the Koran. Truly the best way to live your life is to follow the scriptures. I have not read the Torah (simply don't have the time and also don't really need to). The bible has been adulterated by men and so Koran is what I turn to. I follow Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah.
I am what you call a BELIEVER.
