Why Quran only is not a viable alternative to mainstream Islam(Sunnism)
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Hello Citizen,
Although you lack some research into certain claims i find most of your questions reasonable.
You claim that there is nothing special about this book the Quran, that its just another book and that you could just as easily write one like it. If you care to read a few conversion stories youll come to notice that most if not all came to islam due to the profound influence the Quran had on them. I myself, obviously considering the statistically derived possibility, am one of those. There is no other book i can even begin to compare of having the same influence on me. Im sure youll agree that it is not "just some book" considering these facts and that God knows how many people have had their entire lives altered by this "700th-century" book down to the very core essence of their souls. Are you able to give examples of any other books that have had the same impact on the same scale? Even the aggressing mongols converted after razing the muslim cities into rubble.
I dont really know what youre looking for that is supposed to convince you of its divinity. I dont know if youre looking for a mathematically derived theory of relativity in it or something of the like. There are accurate descriptions of the development of a fetus in the womb. There is also mention of the preservance of the body of Pharoah as a reminder, whose body has not been discovered until early 20th century or so. There probably are more things of interest along those lines.
Personally however i dont put much weight in them, because for me its the words in it that from the very first verse captured my heart.
Now ive read that you stated that you had read the book and was not impressed. Well each his own, guidance is allways and only from God. There is no compulsion in religion.Now you talk about that the "quranist views" regarding cutting off hands and beating wives are forced and dishonest. As a quranist, i agree with you. Im not able to completely answer every single sentence in that book to full satisfaction. No one can. God reminds us in it that we are not to rush in understanding it and that we should instead seek his guidance. I can however not disregard 95% of the content that at times has created within me a sense of what i can only desribe as euphoria.
Not that i myself am fully convinced but, lets just for the sake of broadening out views outside of those imprintied in our minds by our current culture ask say, what would the crimerates involving theft look like in a society implimenting "cutting-off" hands? How would this law be viewed say 1000 years back in history without regarding ourselves more "civilized" in modern times? I remember reading a quote from an english ambassador to the Ottoman Empire who was absolutely stunned and impressed by the fact that people in a city of millions like Istanbul would leave their houses unlocked. Among other things of his mentions was how he had never seen a woman more dignified than a turkish one. Where when walking in the streets men would never stare at her and allways treat her with outmost respec, whereas in England men could whistle and bark like dogs after her.
How morally wrong is it actually we might also consider to as a last resort slap some sense into ones slutty acting wife after having tried all other measures?Youd accept islamic law if it comformed completely to current western ones wouldnt you? Whos laws is it that we actually consider ideal here? There is a lot to benefit from this question, not to least for quranists.
You also talk about the grave moral lacking of eternal punishment. Personally when i for the first time came into realisation of this fact i nearly cried, out of pure relief. Relief that there actually is JUSTICE and all the evil i had seen throughout my life and all the evil and corrupt disgusting people that i so helplessly watched go about their shi**y business out of the pure convinction that they would go unpunished or that they would only be punished for an insignificantly small amount of time compared to the everlasting eternity of their complete and eternal death. Thank God for justice, thank God for purposing creation after those that really matter, the righteous and devout people who through all this hardship still decided to stick to the path of God and are rewarded for this with eternal bliss even though they had the freedom of not to, but faith and guidance taught them better. Isnt that just the best creation? You can not create a good soul as you would create a perfect functioning human biological machine, that soul can only be good if it chose to be so and not if it was just created that way. A soul, however impossible for us to completely describe, is at least not a machine.
These arguments are not to reflect my complete understanding of the entire creation, for i have none and as youd expect me to answer only God does. But the purpose is more to make you see that your, mine or anyone elses philosophy isnt neceserally the universally correct one and that it is ALLWAYS subject to change. That is the level which you are putting most of your arguments forth at, the philosophical one.
Faith tends to have better longevity.Look if the Quran didnt do it for you and youre still searching then really there is just one thing left. Get down on your knees in all humility and ask God. I dont know what youre gonna ask or say thats up to you, but just ask him, in full earnesty, truthfullness and humility.
Icinden zaten biliyorsun bu hayat tamamen bir anlamsiz bosluk oldunu ve Allahdan baska bir gercek olamazdini.
Saygilar.
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You also talk about the grave moral lacking of eternal punishment. Personally when i for the first time came into realisation of this fact i nearly cried, out of pure relief. Relief that there actually is JUSTICE and all the evil i had seen throughout my life and all the evil and corrupt disgusting people that i so helplessly watched go about their shi**y business out of the pure convinction that they would go unpunished or that they would only be punished for an insignificantly small amount of time compared to the everlasting eternity of their complete and eternal death.
Oh dear Halil, I admire your sincere attempts to tell me why I should consider taking religion more seriously, however so far you have not given a single argument. However, this quoted piece hereabove grabbed my interest(+the last line written in Turkish), as this more-or-less summarizes WHY religiosity exists in the first place ( and why religion is bound to stay ).
You know what this is called? - Wishfullthinking. Because you want there to be divine justice, you want there to be an everlasting life, a transcendental soul/spirit/ruh, independant of our low-ish earthly bodies.
All animals have an intrinsic desire to live and to proliferate. All animals fear death, all animals love to have lots of kids, all animals love to eat etc. Why? Because if that had not been the case we couldn't see them in the first place!.
Humans are no exception, and we have indeed great difficulty in accepting this life is finite. Everyone knows the immense grief at losing a beloved friend or relative. So the "pure relief" as you put it, comes with the belief that they still exist, but just in another world, or dimension if u will.(akhirat). However, modern science dealing with the human brains does not seem to support the idea that our emotions, our memories, i.e. the concept of "I" can exist without our brains. This is further exemplified by people who might, due to some illness or accident, become just "different" people, which indeed is very frightening for their relatives.I don't fear death (though the way to it might suck) I have been dead(nonexistent) for billions of years and wasn't bothered by it for a second. Where were I before I was born? Or better Where were I before I got my consciousness(when I was a few years old?)
Where would I be if my parents hadn't decided to make me? You see the absurdness of this question?So, although I would love to see eternall life, divine justice(I live my life pretty OK anyway, so nothing to fear I hope! ), I am pretty much agnostic concerning those things. However, I would LOVE to be surprised!
Respectfully,
Citizen -
Your theory based on Shadda does not hold for at least two reasons
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Shadda cannot be substantiated by the oldest available text of the Quran; it is a later innovation like other dietrical marks. Shadda reflects a particular reading, and usually they are shaped after the teaching of sects and hadith reports.
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The word QaT'A in verse 1231, which does not mean "cut-off" but a simple cut/mark by accident, yes, that verb too is conventionally or traditionally read with Shadda.
If you look at the Quran a Reformist Translation, there you will see my take on the flexibility of reading some words and their alternative meanings...
Please do a little studying and thinking before coming up with assertions like this.
The verse about cutting the hands of thieves can be read in both ways and can be understood in three ways, which I believe is the intention of the Author of the Quran. Unfortunately, some people with knee-jerk reaction to the Quran are unable to appreciate this deliberate flexibility in its expressions, that accommodate times and different conditions.
Peace,
Edipshadda in the pronouciation it does existe, it's not sectarian, it's the arabic language, kassra also isn't written but it's there, as well as dhamma and fatha, none was written, but they're all there in the pronouciation. I don't know if shadda bothers u and makes you feel it's sectarian, but it's in the arabic language, arab christians use it as well .
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Citizen,
i understand your reasoning around the whole thing, those were my exact ways of reasoning. Do you ever consider who taught you that way of thinking with what animals like and dont like and would not be here if they didnt like that. Are you sure they are your own thoughts?
You say that its common for people to think the way i do, dont you find that interesting? Empiric evidence isnt the only way we are able to make sufficiently accurate judgements.Now there is again a lot of needless assuming that you make. I overcame my fear of death long before i converted, but in any case having had it once i understand your expression of it in a previous post. But that is not the reason islam seemed appealing to me. I also never was fully seeking God, the reason i read the Quran in the first place was for the sake of being objective and informed due to my hateful and troubled relationship with religion. So the "want" part never was there, you should not be so hasty make your mind up on things.
God decided to guide me despite everything still, i am thankful for that. Every heard that song "Amazing grace.... that saved a wretch like me"?I actually did answer your questions, if you compare my answers piece by piece with your first post and a statement in your second youll see that. I assume that you understand that no concrete "proof" type of answers can be given to most of them.
I don't fear death (though the way to it might suck) I have been dead(nonexistent) for billions of years and wasn't bothered by it for a second. Where were I before I was born? Or better Where were I before I got my consciousness(when I was a few years old?)
Where would I be if my parents hadn't decided to make me? You see the absurdness of this question?Im sorry i dont really understand at this moment what youre trying to say.
You were not dead for eternity before you were born but in the reasoning of eternal death one is supposed to be dead for all everlasting endless eterneity, endless.... endless.... That used to be the thought that i remember being scary back in my teens, it was the rare and occasional insight into the meaning of true eternity that as you would put it "sucked". That fear i could not bring out just like that on demand but one would need to be in quite the state of contemplation and only ever truly experienced it a few times before i grew out of it.So, although I would love to see eternall life, divine justice(I live my life pretty OK anyway, so nothing to fear I hope! ), I am pretty much agnostic concerning those things. However, I would LOVE to be surprised!
And surprised you might be, God knows what the future holds. If there was a time when i would feel hate by the mere mention of God than i dont see it impossible for you to recieve inspiration.
Well i guess thats all i can come up with, dont know if you have benefited anything from it. In my view these things are ultimately in the hands of God. There a tons of really amazing stories in this forum, you might wanna check them out, they are interesing reads regardless.
Hope you find what youre searching for.
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shadda in the pronouciation it does existe, it's not sectarian, it's the arabic language, kassra also isn't written but it's there, as well as dhamma and fatha, none was written, but they're all there in the pronouciation. I don't know if shadda bothers u and makes you feel it's sectarian, but it's in the arabic language, arab christians use it as well .
Dear Loxbox13, You did not address to the points I reminded you.
So, peace.
Edip -
Hello Edip, i wanted to ask. You being a stout believer in the code 19 concept and searching hidden codes and meanings in the Quran. What do you make of this verse?
003.007 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
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Due to circular time upon entering Jahannam you have existed there from the very first moment of creation itself, this is why Allah warns us you do not want to spend a single instant in Jahannam, but all escape Jahannam as you dwell there forever and ever, while you dwell in Jannah forever and ever and ever. Each forever is a revolution of circular time.
Salaam Abdun.
Can you elaborate on the above viewpoint please with quranic verses.
PEACE
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Salaam Prince,
I explain it through the logic of underlying concepts of physics, simple principles repeat throughout creation and from these simple concepts a picture of the deeper reality can be glimpsed. If you want to have a read its here
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/92/124/
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Salaam Prince,
I explain it through the logic of underlying concepts of physics, simple principles repeat throughout creation and from these simple concepts a picture of the deeper reality can be glimpsed. If you want to have a read its here
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/92/124/
I have read that article and found it informative but yet it hasn't made me understand what you mean by each forever being a revolution of time. It would be better if you could explain this in posts on how you reached this concept of forever.
PEACE
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Salaam Prince,
everything is spinning, we only perceive time as linear, time is spinning also, so once an event has happened it has 'been' from the very beginning of all existence, this demonstrates the infinite potential Allah represents, all possibilities exist infinitely at every instant, the time we exist within is manifest, we know this because it is a field of energy, energy is simply the imaginative thought of Allah, while circular time is the structure of the formation of the dichotomy of Allah.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn and everyone,
I'm not going to waste trying to convert you to Islam or to believe in the Quran but I will paraphrase what I gain from the parable of the soil from the New Testament
Basically Jesus says there is someone sowing seeds. The seeds are sowed on different types of soil.
The parable of the soils describes what becomes of seed that is sown in four different types of soil. The first type of soil is the hardened soil of the pathway. This seed does not penetrate the soil at all, but is quickly snatched up by the birds of the air. The second type of soil is the rocky soil, a shallow layer of earth, barely covering the rock below. The seed which falls upon this type of soil quickly germinates, aided by the warmth retained by the rock, but hindered by a lack of depth and by a lack of moisture. The seed which germinates quickly also terminates quickly. The third soil is the thorny soil, a soil populated with thorns. The seed falling into this soil germinates and begins to grow, but is eventually crowded out by the hardier thorns. The fourth soil is the fruitful soil, that soil which produces a bountiful crop. Having told the story, Jesus put an exclamation point after it by adding these words
The seeds represent the seeds of God's grace or revelation which will grow into the fruits of our faith and deeds and lead us to heaven. The first type of soil represents the person who has never heard the word of God or refuses to open their hearts to God and so the seeds are eaten by birds.
The second type of soil represents someone who accepts God's word on a superficial or shallow level with no deep or true understanding and their faith has the appearance of beginning to grow but in a short time the small sprout quickly died.
The third type of soil represents someone who accepts God's word but allows the things of this world to get in the way and distract them from focusing on the hereafter and obstruct their faith, hence their seeds become tangled in thorns.
The fourth type of soil represents one who hears the word of God and believes with all their heart in the hereafter and lets nothing remove them from the path of righteousness and so they will enjoy the fruits of their deeds in paradise.The point of the parable is that it is not the seeds that are unfit or defunct but the earth that receives them.
Interesting parable.
I recommend reading these parables
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Wise_and_the_Foolish_Builders
http//findingyoursoul.com/2012/11/the-parable-of-the-raft/