All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice

Idris

peace, Nadia

God knowing all does not take away from your free choice.

As per your example, it's one thing that God knew what you were going to say and another for you to have the choice to say and think the way you are.

I agree but God knows all in an absolute way, so before I was created He knew everything I would do right? do I have choice to act outside of what He already 100% absolutely knew would happen in my life? the major error I can see in this argument is that its restricting God to a certain period of time but it seems like according to that verse 1,000 years to you is one day to God that God has some sort of time, or maybe its allegorical

When God says everything is per His will, it means that everything is planned according to His will...

I know, according to His laws I've always thought was a better translation

knowing which people will make the wrong/right choices come what may, is according to His will in the long run.

yeah His laws, his law of cause and effect, law of recompense (reward), and law of requital (punishment)<---what i said here has basically nothing to do with the discussion though so just ignore it

Does that take away from the choices an individual makes, or can make in a particular scenario?

nope, but its quite possible the fact that God knew absolutely what choice a person makes (i.e. the wrong path) before that person is created because of the fact that the person can't choose outside of what God 100% absolutely knew before his creation might

Another thing, there are only a set number of outcomes, and a set number of choices. But those choices are free to decide/choose and those outcomes are controlled by free choice decisions.

I agree, I'm just trying to shake this paradox or my misunderstanding if I have any

Why are those two contradicting? Also how do you define preordained?

i think predetermination and free will are contradicting because (I'll explain in my definition) preordained-I mean predetermined, in the context of the talk I mean an action/choice/outcome/etc. set in stone before a person/animal/etc. is created which the person/animal has no choice or decision to act outside of but unknowingly conforms to this predetermination under the illusion of free will, sometimes not under the illusion though

peace

Idris

peace, Tay

Peace Idris,

One way I am learning how to reconcile the apparent contradiction is in consideration of time and space.

I don't want to to get too deep so I'll keep it short to maintain focus.

We "live" in the realm of time and space. There is no escaping it. All things in the universe are bound by these concepts, hence, all is decaying, according to Allah's plan. This is a linear movement, set into motion by Allah with the "Big-Bang".

Now, of course, Allah is not limited by time and space.

Picture this example

We are living characters in a book. We make decisions on a daily basis and are forced to live one page at a time. Allah, on the other hand, sees the entire book at the same time. If you or I could be outside of time and space, we could flip ahead a few chapters, or flip backwards, or witness the present. It's all there. But for the characters in the book, they have to live out their decisions.

If we take it a step further, imagine that the book is dynamic. Every decision made changes the entire future of all interactions. Yet at any moment, you can flip forward and see where the characters are headed, although this direction can be avoided, for better or worse, by future decisions. And still, at any given moment, all is known by Allah.

Of course, this is not a perfect analogy as it has many holes, but I think it paints a nice picture of our limitations and of Allah's infinity. It also avoids predestiny while allowing for omni-presence.

Hope it helps you in your study, and I hope you'll share what you discover.

Peace,
Tay

thats actually a pretty good theory, the funny thing was is that I was actually looking back on some of your posts/replies on this subject and was hoping you'd reply to this thread to give me some insight, I have to wake up at 7 in the morn and I was trying to get to sleep not long ago but this question wouldn't let me sleep, I do believe this is all related to God being outside the confines of time and space as well if you look at my reply to Nadia, your analogy is very interesting too, somehow I feel this will be a topic that I will jihad with for a long time, I just pray it doesnt tear up my faith like it did Sara's (LOL you know I'm jus messin with you Sara wink anyways thanx for the contribution Tay, another person I hope to hear from in this thread is idolfree

and may God guide us all

Sara

lol

savage_carrot

Peace Idris,

agree but God knows all in an absolute way, so before I was created He knew everything I would do right? do I have choice to act outside of what He already 100% absolutely knew would happen in my life? the major error I can see in this argument is that its restricting God to a certain period of time but it seems like according to that verse 1,000 years to you is one day to God that God has some sort of time, or maybe its allegorical

Hmm, where to begin...okay, let's take the example of one human being right now for purposes of explanation and we then can take it generally. Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven, and also that i'm going to choose the particular dress i'm wearing right now (weird jump i know but it ties in the serious and the trivial at the same time). That does not take away from my choices of choosing what dress to wear BUT i'm limited to the number of choices i have according to the number of dresses i have.

I can't understand how it's restricting God (pls explain if i'm not getting it), but it is restricting me according to the number and types of choices i have depending on how/where i was born etc...and thats what the determined course/plan is. Everyone is tested differently acc to their capabilities/station/place in this wordly life.

I know, according to His laws I've always thought was a better translation

I agree, after discussing with you guys, laws have begun to spin their web in my head.

yeah His laws, his law of cause and effect, law of recompense (reward), and law of requital (punishment)<---what i said here has basically nothing to do with the discussion though so just ignore it

Good point.

nope, but its quite possible the fact that God knew absolutely what choice a person makes (i.e. the wrong path) before that person is created because of the fact that the person can't choose outside of what God 100% absolutely knew before his creation might

Yes, we have a set number of outcomes and a set number/type of choices that can lead us to those set outcomes. But the free choice is inherent within this system.

I'm just trying to shake this paradox or my misunderstanding if I have any

I wrestled with these questions too, it's good to discuss it further so that a picture is more solid in our minds taking from the points of view of everyone.

i think predetermination and free will are contradicting because (I'll explain in my definition) preordained-I mean predetermined, in the context of the talk I mean an action/choice/outcome/etc. set in stone before a person/animal/etc. is created which the person/animal has no choice or decision to act outside of but unknowingly conforms to this predetermination under the illusion of free will, sometimes not under the illusion though

Lets take God's system as a maze with two exits. One will get you cheese and one will get you dismembered by a trap. The system exists and you exist within this system. The choices/paths you take are there, but which path will you take? Around you on the walls of the maze are signs pointing you to the cheese exit and warning you of the trap exit...will you heed them or ignore them? It's not a complete analogy, i should add more embellishments but i know you will understand what i'm trying to get at.

Yes the system is already there and we are all created by God, yet given choices within this system to accept and submit willingly and consistently to His system to achieve the good ending. There is no chaos, it's all intricately planned for the benefit or detriment of our own souls that we decide how to mould.

So all in all, there is a freedom of choice which is an illusion and also a real freedom of choice restricted to His system. The reason why i think is because we were created and not creators. ( and everything is in pairs, dont know why that leapt to my mind)

Sorry if its a tad long though!

Nadia

Tay

Peace Idris,

It is quite humbling to be sought for insight. I truly appreciate it and wish you to know that your own insight has helped me tremendously.

Peace Nadia,

I enjoyed and agree with all of your points except for one. Perhaps I misunderstood

Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven

If you mean this in the absolute sense of an eternal suffering, and that God knew this would be your outcome before you were even created, then I humbly disagree for the following reasons

It is completely unjust to create a being for the sole purpose of eternal suffering, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".

It is completely without compassion to let a human being live with the illusion of possibly going to Heaven, knowing full well that the human will not, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".

Hoping for some articulation.

Peace,
Tay

Idris

peace,

Hmm, where to begin...okay, let's take the example of one human being right now for purposes of explanation and we then can take it generally. Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven, and also that i'm going to choose the particular dress i'm wearing right now (weird jump i know but it ties in the serious and the trivial at the same time). That does not take away from my choices of choosing what dress to wear BUT i'm limited to the number of choices i have according to the number of dresses i have.

hmmm I dont quite understand yet so Ima scroll down and see what else you said and see if it gives me a better view of the argument , but I'll try to get a better understanding of this by putting your argument in an outline

God knew absolutely that you were going to choose the dress you are now wearing
It still doesn't take away from your choice of choosing but you are limited in your possible choices

is that an accurate outline? I want to know before I logically examine it

I can't understand how it's restricting God (pls explain if i'm not getting it), but it is restricting me according to the number and types of choices i have depending on how/where i was born etc...and thats what the determined course/plan is. Everyone is tested differently acc to their capabilities/station/place in this wordly life.

I was referring to my own argument, not yours, possibly restricting God to a time frame and that being a major flaw of it, I'm one of the few people I know that will openly self-criticize/analyze themselves in debate/discussion so I could see how you found it wierd

Yes, we have a set number of outcomes and a set number/type of choices that can lead us to those set outcomes. But the free choice is inherent within this system.

Lets take God's system as a maze with two exits. One will get you cheese and one will get you dismembered by a trap. The system exists and you exist within this system. The choices/paths you take are there, but which path will you take? Around you on the walls of the maze are signs pointing you to the cheese exit and warning you of the trap exit...will you heed them or ignore them? It's not a complete analogy, i should add more embellishments but i know you will understand what i'm trying to get at.

Yes the system is already there and we are all created by God, yet given choices within this system to accept and submit willingly and consistently to His system to achieve the good ending. There is no chaos, it's all intricately planned for the benefit or detriment of our own souls that we decide how to mould.

So all in all, there is a freedom of choice which is an illusion and also a real freedom of choice restricted to His system. The reason why i think is because we were created and not creators. ( and everything is in pairs, dont know why that leapt to my mind)

Sorry if its a tad long though!

Nadia

no problem, I'm kind of too tired to really give a good response, you did pretty good from what I read, I hope Sara likes the argument

peace

savage_carrot

Peace Tay,

If you mean this in the absolute sense of an eternal suffering,

I'm sorry, bit late in the night and i couldn't understand the point above but i will try to explain what my opinion is till now regarding this. Hope to have more input from you...and everyone else of course.

It is completely unjust to create a being for the sole purpose of eternal suffering, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".

Well here, are we trying to define what is just and unjust in God's point of view? If so, then what observations/opinions of justice do we have? Would it be just to murder a child and to countinue the serial killing spree and escape unscathed?

Imho, i think that every soul is created equal and given an equal chance at redeeming and moulding itself to God's system. The ones that would be going to hell transgress repeatedly till the point of no return. Does that mean they didn't have a chance/s of redeeming themselves and turning to God? Does that mean they deserve to be punished for their flagrant disregard of God?

If you'll say why create a being that will do evil? I'll say it's our choices that we take that lead us to where we go, does that mean we are inherently evil? No. It means that some of us choose evil as a choice consistenly and transgress against God's system in rebellion. God is our creator, we can't expect to rebel against the Almighty and go home free, we have to prove ourselves worthy of the responsibilities upon us, to payback this chance at an awesome existance that is truly wondrous, to serve God, accept His system and earn our right to the everlasting peace.

Commonly termed freedom of choice is an illusion and the other is real, inherent and restricted to His system. It is also a double edged sword. We can make it or break it.

It is completely without compassion to let a human being live with the illusion of possibly going to Heaven, knowing full well that the human will not, and hence, contradicts the very essence of what is meant by "God".

Here is where i disagree. There is no illusion of going to heaven or hell for the soul involved. It can go to heaven or hell depending on it's choices. It's an equal chance opportunity for the soul involved. Complete freedom of choice restricted to His system, we decide whether we go to heaven or hell. Does God try to guide the soul to the right path? Yes. Does the God force the soul to the right path? No, what would be the point of that? What would be the point of being given a test in His system and given freedom of choice to choose our outcomes and forced to choose only one?

It is a test and one worthy of testing our souls to the limit, to see what we are made of, to see how we are, to see whether we use our perception and take the right path, or turn arrogant and transgress. It's ultimately for our benefit, this test...and we will achieve our ultimate reward or punishment according to God's justice.

If there are things God didn't know then thats a contradiction and a limitation of God and as we know God has no limitations. As i said before, we can't complain (maybe a little) but this is His universe, we exist/live according to His rules/system, we are created because of His will...to serve Him willingly and earn our worth, to appreciate Him and the chance He has given us.

So in the end i'll ask you

Do you think that being given free choice in God's system is a double edged sword?

Do you think God created evil?

Do you think mankind is given an equal opportunity to make it or break it?

Do you think that God knowing all takes away from the free choice to our salvation or doom, according to God's laws we have inherent in His system?

Let's discuss this, it's very interesting this thread and as usual you bring thought provoking points to ponder and i'd like to work out some confusing aspects.

savage_carrot

Peace Idris,

God knew absolutely that you were going to choose the dress you are now wearing
It still doesn't take away from your choice of choosing but you are limited in your possible choices

Yes, in a nutshell. The reasoning behind it is because we are created, not creators, existing in a system created by the creator, thus we live by the rules/laws or turn arrogant/rebellious and transgress against the system. Thats what submission is all about. No one said it was going to be easy. wink

Ali_Omar

Dear savage_carrot,

The nexus of cause and effect is predestined. Or, if we prefer, according to God?s will.

Let?s say you want to cross a small stream, you can choose to jump over it or walk through it. Whether you reach the other side, or not, is predestined but, maybe, not the way you get there.

God does know, however, what you are going to choose, because time does not exist for God, and therefore what we call future, or past, is for God irrelevant.

Is this the way we can look at it?

Best regards

Ali Omar

savage_carrot

Peace Ali Omar,

Let?s say you want to cross a small stream, you can choose to jump over it or walk through it. Whether you reach the other side, or not, is predestined but, maybe, not the way you get there.

Er, not sure what you are getting at here...are you implying that there is something God doesnt know? (excuse the implication but it wasn't clear)

God does know, however, what you are going to choose, because time does not exist for God, and therefore what we call future, or past, is for God irrelevant.

Oh i see what you are trying to say now...yes i agree, and will add just a little bit more, that everything i do, no matter how small or trivial or major, is known by God and His will...

Btw, predestined always carried shades of some force inherent within the word...i don't think that there is any kind of force used by God to any of the ultimate outcomes, but guidance indeed...we are free to choose our outcome. Or does predestined directly translate to known before 'our' time?

Nadia

Tay

Peace Nadia,

Let's hit the brakes for a moment.

I think where we're failing in communication is in "tense". See, I agree with all of your points. But, your points, at face value, contradict this statement of yours,

Yes God knew absolutely whether i'm going to go to hell or heaven

Now this is crucial. You say God KNEW. This is past tense. So what I need to know is, do you believe God KNEW your destiny before you were created?

If so, then this contradicts even human justice, and thus, you are stuck in a logical paradox, and we're in for a looooong discussion.

If not then we're on the same page and should seek to define this understanding better.

So again, is it that God "Knew", or the God "Knows"?

Peace,
Tay

savage_carrot

Peace Tay...

So again, is it that God "Knew", or the God "Knows"?

Arghh...i should hit the bed, yes of course it's God knows...sorry! ops

Can't believe i wrote that huuuuge post after!

Tay

Whew!

OK. Go to bed, I'll do the same, and we'll define our mutual understanding tomorrow. I'm glad to see we're on the same page.

peace,
Tay

Ali_Omar

Dear savage_carrot and others,

Events like ?The Big Bang?, is just one incident that has no significance with regards to the ?whole?.
From the human point of view it started some time ago, but God does not have any ?ago? perspective on it.

I regard God as a force, which is holding everything in balance, always, and that the God knows every detail in all that happened 1000 years ago, from a human perspective, everything that happens today, and everything that happens 1000 years from now, in the same instant.

And, yes, I believe the expression ?predestined? just points to the fact that it is something that for humans will be a future event, taking place due to various causes that ?happen underway?, but that we can not ?see?, due to our inability to fully understand the effect of all the minute details of all the causes, until it has happened.

God knows absolutely all the effects of all causes and knows the outcome of any event since, what we call, eternity.

If we sit back and think, ?What?s the use, God has decided anyway?, then we don?t grasp the aspect of difference in knowing destiny and choosing it. God knows what we will choose, because from God?s aspect this has already happened, but from our point of view it has not happened yet.

Best regards

Ali Omar

unknownuser

Why are we putting information here about things without prove if its just opinion we should say that.

Or can we quote quranic referances or something?

Salaams.Thanks.What a funny world.

YankeeDoodle

Good Idea.

lrhazi

Salam All,

To those who believe that every single one of their decisions is known, in advance, to God, I have one question... Let's say you are about to choose between two things, two events, at the end of the street, go left, event A, or go right event B. Let's say you ended up going left, so event A took place... question

In God's knowledge, Would you say there is only event A? Do you think event B exists or not in God's knowledge?

My point is God is All-Knowing, His knowledge includes both events.

Those who claim God only knows the Universe where you went left have a "smaller" God than those who believe He knows both.

Another way of tackling this difficult problem is For those who claim there is no contradiction between God's omniscience and free-will

If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible? How could event B be possible if we already know it is absent from God's knowledge? Any turning around the bush about the nature of time and space and similar helps you not.... if you accept only one of two event is present in God's knowledge, than only one of them is actually possible. Then any talk of free-will is "pretend" like my 3 years old daughter says.. it's pretend free-will, pretend responsibility, pretend justice, pretend accountability )

Peace,
Mohamed~

Tay

Peace All,

Ali Omar stated,

Events like ?The Big Bang?, is just one incident that has no significance with regards to the ?whole?. From the human point of view it started some time ago, but God does not have any ?ago? perspective on it.

I disagree. The significance of the "Big-Bang" is the beginning of linear time. It's the zero-point that we can trace back to. And time is the very thing that makes this discussion difficult, for we are trying to understand the timeless while being bound by time.

God knows absolutely all the effects of all causes and knows the outcome of any event since, what we call, eternity.

Well put, I agree.

If we sit back and think, ?What?s the use, God has decided anyway?, then we don?t grasp the aspect of difference in knowing destiny and choosing it. God knows what we will choose, because from God?s aspect this has already happened, but from our point of view it has not happened yet.

Exactly. Now if we could only get this message to the rest of the fatalistic Muslim world, we'd make progress.

MZ stated,

Why are we putting information here about things without prove if its just opinion we should say that.

It's just opinion.

Mohamed asked,

If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible?

Yes and no. While one can only choose event A or event B, both possibilites exist until the moment of decision.

How could event B be possible if we already know it is absent from God's knowledge?

We don't know that. Nothing is absent from God's knowledge.

Any turning around the bush about the nature of time and space and similar helps you not

Recognizing one's limitations "helps you not"? I disagree completely. If time and space are irrelevant here, then the understanding of omnipresence vs. freewill would have been simple and this discussion wouldn't even take place.

The fact is, without the context of time and space, free-will cannot coexist with omnipresence while considering justice and compassion.

Peace,
Tay

savage_carrot

Peace Mohamed,

To those who believe that every single one of their decisions is known, in advance, to God, I have one question... Let's say you are about to choose between two things, two events, at the end of the street, go left, event A, or go right event B. Let's say you ended up going left, so event A took place... question

In God's knowledge, Would you say there is only event A? Do you think event B exists or not in God's knowledge?

Event B and so on also exist in God's knowledge obviously or He won't be the God y'know...

Those who claim God only knows the Universe where you went left have a "smaller" God than those who believe He knows both.

I agree, but who would say that?

If in God's knowledge, which is basically "The Absolute and Comprehensive Truth", there is only event A, does not that mean that event B is actually and effectively impossible? How could event B be possible if we already know it is absent from God's knowledge? Any turning around the bush about the nature of time and space and similar helps you not.... if you accept only one of two event is present in God's knowledge, than only one of them is actually possible.

The paths we take and the choices we can make are limited to His system, thus the choices/paths are limited in number. God knows all, all the choices we can take and do take. Why do you say some people say God doesn't know something? It won't be an all-knowing God then right?
Also it is a controlled system/environment...there is no chaos, God is in full control.

Peace Tay,

Yes i have some questions that are confusing me regarding the 'start' from mankind's perspective...will post when i have the time, would be glad to work things out!

Peace Ali Omar,

I have some questions regarding the post, will get back to you!

Nadia

Ali_Omar

Assalamu?alaikum,

Just to comply with some expressed wishes on this thread.

A few verses concerning the non-existence of time from God?s ?point of view?

54.50
Our commands are done within the blink of an eye.

27.40
The one who possessed knowledge from the book said, "I can bring it to you in the blink of your eye."???????.

16.77
To GOD belongs the future of the heavens and the earth. As far as He is concerned, the end of the world (the Hour) is a blink of an eye away, or even closer. GOD is Omnipotent.

Some verses about eternity

40.39
"O my people, this first life is a temporary illusion, while the Hereafter is the eternal abode."

33.62
This is GOD's eternal system, and you will find that GOD's system is unchangeable.

3.2
GOD there is no god except He; the Living, the Eternal

Complete control, and complete knowledge of everything, of the past/present/future

2.255
GOD there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.

6.59
With Him are the keys to all secrets; none knows them except He. He knows everything on land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls without His knowledge. Nor is there a grain in the depths of the soil. Nor is there anything wet or dry, that is not recorded in a profound record.

Everything comes from God and is returning to God

28.88
You shall not worship beside GOD any other god. There is no other god beside Him. Everything perishes except His presence. To Him belongs all sovereignty, and to Him you will be returned.

20.50
He said, "Our Lord is the One who granted everything its existence, and its guidance."

6.164
Say, "Shall I seek other than GOD as a lord, when He is the Lord of all things? No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another. Ultimately, you return to your Lord, then He informs you regarding all your disputes."

Best regards

Ali Omar