All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice
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Peace mz,
After checking the ayats , the message seems more mistranslated then other translations - to me anyway.
They are bringing the word future in places where it isn't in the arabic side,strange.
I've always read that verse as God knows what's behind them and whats in front of them/after them, which can mean the future (in mankinds perspective) obviously...but i'm a bit puzzled, are you trying to say that God doesn't know the future? That there is some limitation to the God? That He is not all knowing?
Need some clarification please.
Nadia
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Peace MZ,
Basically, both events A and B are in the first book. None of those events is in the second book, until I reach the end of the street and effectively make my turn, left or right, then and only then, is one of the two events added to the second book.
Do you see my point?
Yes, I see your point loud and clear, and we're on the same "page", no pun intended. Thank you for clarifying..
Injunctions in brackets are mine to clear up any possible confusion, please correct me if I'm wrong...
Here's how I see it... There are two kinds of knowledge, as far as the Universe events go. One that encompasses all possibilities, has a record of every single event that could ever happen. the other one is about events that did happen. let's call these two kinds of knowledge books. The first book is static, closed. The second is dynamic, its content is linked closely to Man's free-will... that is the book that is being written as we speak.. as we take decisions and do things...
I'd add that the dynamic book, at any moment in present time, reveals the future consequences of current decisions, although these consequences are still dynamic based on future decisions, and this knowledge is completely unavailable to mankind. Only Allah knows what lies ahead. This excludes, of course, common sense consequences.
Are we still on the same page?
Peace,
Tay -
Salaams Nadia,tay,all,
Where is sara i actually started this future business because of her - that is her posts,which where quite unbeleivable ,but i think some missunderstanding ,however was embodied in them aswell.
Again nadia you are putting the future trans,i think yourself i havn't been able to find it in the lanes in about 8 pages translating the single word -if you have please confirm it here.(Khalf,in arabic,-2255)
It allways means behind or the past , thats all is what i have seen.
Salaams tay but i think you have mixed up the x and y ,it may be better the other way ,please check.The second y and x may be the other way.
I havn't been able to understand the last bit ,from i'd add..........sorry.
but mohammad seemed right (to me)in his argument above.
Thanks.
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Peace mz,
Please clarify again
2255 Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
By your definition the verse would read He knows what is before them and behind them? And by before you are saying the past? What would be the point of the usage of this double past then? Couldn't it mean that before them is what is in front of them? As i could say, your future is before you, shining and glorious. Also, please render us your translation of the verse, not just the word, i'd like to see it in the context of the verse to clear it up.
Also you said on the other thread and i asked you this question before as well, maybe it was lost in the thread...you said God doesn't know that's why it's a test...Are you saying that there is something God doesn't know?
Please explain, would like to hear your understanding. Thanks.
edited to include
I searched for the word and these are all the verses where it occurs for the future context
2255, 717, 20110, 2128, 2276, 349, 369, 4114, 4125.
Now if it just means the past, then how would you translate all those verses? Like say for example, 2276.
He knows what is before them and what is behind them and to Allah go back all questions (for decision).
This would mean God only knows what is before them and what is before them? Or what is behind them and what is behind them? Or what is before them and behind them? In all these verses God is using only the past? Doesn't make sense.
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Alrite first of all I'd like to apologise in advance for not having read all the replies in this thread but I just got up from sleep and this idea came to my head in one of random REM dream sessions However, it all makes sense and is totally grounded in logic.
Two premises
arrow God exists
arrow God knows all
Okay, so in accordance with my discussion with savage carrot in this thread here we have come to the mutual conclusion that the universe, from the perspective of an eternal timeless being, is a deterministic system. What this means is that every outcome, or "effect", is predetermined. The universe is a deterministic state machine. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with logical state machines and deterministic state machines, but I propose that the universe is one big massive state machine.
Alrite so those of you not familiar with the state machine, I'll just explain it briefly for you. It's basically a logical flow of events, where a set of inputs lead you through to a set of outputs. You start from an initial state and depending on your input, you go to a certain state. So if "0" is our initial state, and we have two other states in our system, states "A" and "B", and on an input of "1", the machine proceeds to state "A", and in input "2" the machine proceeds to state "B". To explain this diagramatically I've quickly put something together in photoshop
http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bill_rd/state_1.gif
So staying with this diagram, first imagine yourself as a human in state "0" and you don't know what input you'll get, so you get a certain input, say "1" and thus you go to state A and proceed onwards, and if you get input "2" you go to state B and proceed onwards. Now take god's perspective and look at the paper as a 2d object - look, you can clearly see what's happening. You know "everything" about this system - the inputs, and the outputs.
Now imagine the universe on a piece of paper, with every single "cause" as a state and its effect an "output", which would serve as the input for another state/cause. So because you know all the inputs and the states and their behaviour, you know all the output - thus the entire thing is planned. Going back to the "states" perspective, if you were a state in this massive state machine, you'd still have the notion of free will because you don't know all possible inputs; however from a godly perspective, since everything is known, your inputs and outputs are also known.
Consider the uncertainty principle put forth by quantum physics, which dictates that we can never know to 100% accuracy the state of a particle. But an extension of this theory is that if we did know the state of every single particle within the universe, then we could tell the future - not predict it, but tell it. Tell exactly what's going to happen in the next 2 seconds, years, centuries, millenia, and so on and so forth. This fits in perfectly fine with the model I proposed because we don't know the state of every single particle within the universe but god does. Thus we dont know our futures and we can never know our future and to us, everything is still a choice.
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Peace neo,
Awesome post! Thank you for putting it in such a clear way for everyone.
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peace, Neo
Alrite first of all I'd like to apologise in advance for not having read all the replies in this thread but I just got up from sleep and this idea came to my head in one of random REM dream sessions However, it all makes sense and is totally grounded in logic.
Two premises
arrow God exists
arrow God knows all
Okay, so in accordance with my discussion with savage carrot in this thread here we have come to the mutual conclusion that the universe, from the perspective of an eternal timeless being, is a deterministic system. What this means is that every outcome, or "effect", is predetermined. The universe is a deterministic state machine. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with logical state machines and deterministic state machines, but I propose that the universe is one big massive state machine.
Alrite so those of you not familiar with the state machine, I'll just explain it briefly for you. It's basically a logical flow of events, where a set of inputs lead you through to a set of outputs. You start from an initial state and depending on your input, you go to a certain state. So if "0" is our initial state, and we have two other states in our system, states "A" and "B", and on an input of "1", the machine proceeds to state "A", and in input "2" the machine proceeds to state "B". To explain this diagramatically I've quickly put something together in photoshop
http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bill_rd/state_1.gif
So staying with this diagram, first imagine yourself as a human in state "0" and you don't know what input you'll get, so you get a certain input, say "1" and thus you go to state A and proceed onwards, and if you get input "2" you go to state B and proceed onwards. Now take god's perspective and look at the paper as a 2d object - look, you can clearly see what's happening. You know "everything" about this system - the inputs, and the outputs.
Now imagine the universe on a piece of paper, with every single "cause" as a state and its effect an "output", which would serve as the input for another state/cause. So because you know all the inputs and the states and their behaviour, you know all the output - thus the entire thing is planned. Going back to the "states" perspective, if you were a state in this massive state machine, you'd still have the notion of free will because you don't know all possible inputs; however from a godly perspective, since everything is known, your inputs and outputs are also known.
Consider the uncertainty principle put forth by quantum physics, which dictates that we can never know to 100% accuracy the state of a particle. But an extension of this theory is that if we did know the state of every single particle within the universe, then we could tell the future - not predict it, but tell it. Tell exactly what's going to happen in the next 2 seconds, years, centuries, millenia, and so on and so forth. This fits in perfectly fine with the model I proposed because we don't know the state of every single particle within the universe but god does. Thus we dont know our futures and we can never know our future and to us, everything is still a choice.
incredible post
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Peace Neo,
Thank you for the excellent explanation. My only question is whether you feel the decision to choose input 1 or input 2 is predetermined.
Peace MZ,
You're right, I did flip flop the X and Y.
X= static book of all possibilites
Y= dynamic book of that has happenedThis renders my "I'd like to add" pointless, so no worries.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Neo,
Thank you for the excellent explanation. My only question is whether you feel the decision to choose input 1 or input 2 is predetermined.
If you know the inputs, you know the outputs, that's how state machines work. God knows every input, which is the resultant of another output - god also knows the first input which results in every other output (the proverbial "big bang"). Whether its predetermined or not is not for me and you to answer because that would imply me or you know god's determination. But suffice it to say, that if a being knew everything - the notion or dimension of time would be removed from that being's perspective. This being would become "timeless", per se
peace
p.s. savage_carrot, I'll reply to your PM as soon as I have some decent amount of time
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Salaams Tay,
X Static book of one direction,possibility because everything obeys Gods laws.There arn't a number of possibilities-i don't think.
But because Humans don't obey law therefore their outcomes,or possibilites are phenominal,although God knows the direction or course of the universe and other things that obey his laws he doesn't now of what peoples choice will be because choice is not based on any law it is a personal thing,which we can change at anytime of day and so the outcome will thus be different,and thus cause X to have a number of outcomes rather then simply one.
And when you do turn round the corner that is when that perticular outcome is written in the dynamic book Y.Therefore only reason Y is different to X is because we have a free will and don't obey any law as does the rest of the creation.(But if you didn't have a free will then you could have said Allah knows the future and all).
This is the way i understand.But hope you clarify if i am wrong.Thanks.
Salaams nadia,
I will try and trans some of those ayat and i do believe they are mistranslated- i will show that i think;mind you Zenje has shown some very good ayats.
If we are wrong may Allah forgive all.
Salaams.
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Salaams nadia,
2276,Sorry but there are mistranslations in there,
The meanings should be chosen (from a dictionery) according to context and some common sense- Allah himself said quran is easy to follow and understand, and so it is i think.
So 2276 is,
He knows what is between them strength/might/support and what (following)behind (Bad/worse)and to Allah return all matters.
Thanks,Bye.
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Peace Neo,
Thank you again for clarifying.
Whether its predetermined or not is not for me and you to answer because that would imply me or you know god's determination.
I disagree. Essentially, your logical state machine describes how it is possible that God knows all possibilities. This part I agree with.
But if we somehow incorporate this idea to include that our destiny is pre-written, then life becomes absolutely meaningless, atleast in the context of logic. No need for guidance, no need for striving to establish the system, no right and wrong, no judgement, no heaven and hell. It's a prewritten story and one that we have no say in. This is the very crux of the matter.
Your logical state machine, viewed at any moment in time, reveals the paths that we have chosen and where they are headed. But it does not bind us to the future path, it only shows where they currently lead. One change tomorrow could draw a completely new path, albeit, within the predetermined possibilities.
Peace,
Tay -
Tay,
But if we somehow incorporate this idea to include that our destiny is pre-written, then life becomes absolutely meaningless, atleast in the context of logic.
I disagree - logic doesn't necessitate purpose and non-determinism. There's nothing logically wrong with living a predestined life. Even if we inspect this from a pragmatic and humane perspective, it can be seen that almost all (in fact, all) our decisions are a function of our prior experiences and other external bias. For freedom of choice to exist at its most ideal state, a person has to have the ability to choose between option A and B without any bias at all. However, in a realistic situation this is never true. There is always bias; whether it be our surroundings or our prior experience. We can never choose between A and B equiprobably. Theoretically - perhaps, but one has no reason to assume this because this has never been observed, however there's plenty of proof for decisions with bias. In fact, one can't even claim that humans can make that kind of unbiased judgement and provide any proof for it. This also ties in with the fact that no one can be objective.
No need for guidance, no need for striving to establish the system, no right and wrong, no judgement, no heaven and hell. It's a prewritten story and one that we have no say in. This is the very crux of the matter.
Hmm...why is this a crux of the system? It's not like any of this is relevent to our lives. I mean, do you care that the US government has more information about your country than you? No, probably not. Why not? Because there's nothing you can do about it. Basically, it's irrelevent. I don't view this as a crux at all; in fact it ties in with the meaning of Islam really well. Islam is submission - submission to the will of god once one realises that one is nothing more than a pawn in the long grand game of the creation. There's no other path than submission in my opinion, as that is the only way one can attain happiness.
Your logical state machine, viewed at any moment in time, reveals the paths that we have chosen and where they are headed. But it does not bind us to the future path, it only shows where they currently lead. One change tomorrow could draw a completely new path, albeit, within the predetermined possibilities.
I've heard this theory before - it's about god knowing all probable outcomes but us having the freedom to choose between said set of probably outcomes right? I disagree with this one because this one again falls into the pit of contradiction with omniscience. To be omniscient is to know all. There's no sidestepping around the word "all" - to know all is to have knowledge of the past, present, and future. If there is a finite set of possibilities (which there are...), then to say that us humans can choose between A, and B, and C without god's knowledge/consent is a direct contradiction of god's omnisciencce. I mean take for example a program - if I knew everything about the program, or if I was omniscient over the program, then I know what the result would be each and every time. If I had to guess and say "well, it can either be 1, or 2, but not 3", then I don't know everything and thus breaks my omniscience over the program.
To think that we can make our own destiny is a direct violation of god's omniscience.
Peace.
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This fits in perfectly fine with the model I proposed because we don't know the state of every single particle within the universe but god does. Thus we dont know our futures and we can never know our future and to us, everything is still a choice.
Salam Bro,
I do not agree. It is not a deterministic Universe (because of free-will enabled elements in it) and If it was there would no free-will. You are basically saying your really don't have a choice, but since you don't know it, then you can just act as if you had one. pretend.Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Salam Nadia, Tay and All,
If the former, then we can think that God did not know something when He conceived the plan. And if the latter, then where's the love eh? Or is it that when God conceived it, designed it, created it and it happened, it was all one event which happened according to God, in one fell swoop.
In my previous post I said there are two kinds of knowledge... the general one has all of the above in it... in it every soul did everything it could possibly do... end up in heaven and also end up in hell.
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God can never be surprised by no soul's actions, they are all in the book, also no one could do anything other than what is that book... for that book says "what can possibly exist"... if it is not in that book, then it does not and can not exist, this is physics.
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God is perfectly Just. people see Him unjust because they don't believe in this second book, second kind of knowledge.. they believe God only knows what people are going to do, and not what they can do....
Tay,
Yes, we are on the same page I believe.
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
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Peace Mohamed,
God is perfectly Just. people see Him unjust because they don't believe in this second book, second kind of knowledge.. they believe God only knows what people are going to do, and not what they can do....
Completely agree, all this human compassion etc is just a cause of confusion and as neo put it, is bringing God down to our level.
God can never be surprised by no soul's actions, they are all in the book, also no one could do anything other than what is that book... for that book says "what can possibly exist"... if it is not in that book, then it does not and can not exist, this is physics.
Okay i understand that, but i have a question for you...do you believe at any point in our time that God did NOT know something? Or do you believe that God knows ALL at every point in our time? Do you think God is all knowing if so then
Like for example mz suggests that God does NOT know the results of our actions..is there ANY way to reconcile this to an all knowing God?
tia
Nadia
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I've heard this theory before - it's about god knowing all probable outcomes but us having the freedom to choose between said set of probably outcomes right? I disagree with this one because this one again falls into the pit of contradiction with omniscience. To be omniscient is to know all. There's no sidestepping around the word "all" - to know all is to have knowledge of the past, present, and future. If there is a finite set of possibilities (which there are...), then to say that us humans can choose between A, and B, and C without god's knowledge/consent is a direct contradiction of god's omnisciencce. I mean take for example a program - if I knew everything about the program, or if I was omniscient over the program, then I know what the result would be each and every time. If I had to guess and say "well, it can either be 1, or 2, but not 3", then I don't know everything and thus breaks my omniscience over the program.
To think that we can make our own destiny is a direct violation of god's omniscience.
The above clearly and perfectly describes the heart of the issue. and I disagree of couse, but thanks for putting it that nicely.
The difference between a computer program as we know it and the Universe is that the Universe is a program with free-will empowerd elements in it. To put it very blantly Free-will = Cannot determine which path I will take. You, the programmer still have to create, bring into existence the paths themselves, but me, the free element has the pwoer to choose. Omnisciene is knowing all the paths, all the outcomes, which God has to create anywhays, because He alone creates.
If there are paths you do not want the program to take, you simply do not create them.
You say To be omniscient is to know all. There's no sidestepping around the word "all" . I agree with that... but you do not! You say to be omniscient is to know only the paths the program actually takes, and not those it wont take anyway...
There is inherently no diffference between the paths we take and those we dont... they all equally exist, they all equally must be known to the creator.
God' consent, again, is given implicitly when He creates. If you do something, it is because He agreed, for if He did not, He would not have created it to begin with. You do not want but what Allah wants.
You basically believe that the god of a deterministic Universe is supperior to that of a non-deterministic one. I guess that is your opinion. I belive this universe we live in is non-deterministic. I believe the god of this Universe decided to give free-will from Himself and share it with mankind.... free-will removes determinism, but that is His decision.
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Okay i understand that, but i have a question for you...do you believe at any point in our time that God did NOT know something? Or do you believe that God knows ALL at every point in our time? Do you think God is all knowing if so then
Like for example mz suggests that God does NOT know the results of our actions..is there ANY way to reconcile this to an all knowing God?
Salam Sister,
There are two book with God... simplistically, one has all the paths in it, and is static, the other one has what actually took place.... At any moment, eevrything is in the first book, and only the past is in the second... as you do things, they show up in the second.
Can we say God, at certain moment, does not know something? No, for everything is recorded in the first book. How can He not know? I am a little avoiding the answer you want me to say )
Here are a couple of verses for you... what do you think they are saying?
293
al-imraan140
al-imraan142
al-maaida94
al-tawba16
al-baqara143
muhammad31
al-kahf12Peace,
Mohamed~