All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice
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Tay,
But if we somehow incorporate this idea to include that our destiny is pre-written, then life becomes absolutely meaningless, atleast in the context of logic.
I disagree - logic doesn't necessitate purpose and non-determinism. There's nothing logically wrong with living a predestined life. Even if we inspect this from a pragmatic and humane perspective, it can be seen that almost all (in fact, all) our decisions are a function of our prior experiences and other external bias. For freedom of choice to exist at its most ideal state, a person has to have the ability to choose between option A and B without any bias at all. However, in a realistic situation this is never true. There is always bias; whether it be our surroundings or our prior experience. We can never choose between A and B equiprobably. Theoretically - perhaps, but one has no reason to assume this because this has never been observed, however there's plenty of proof for decisions with bias. In fact, one can't even claim that humans can make that kind of unbiased judgement and provide any proof for it. This also ties in with the fact that no one can be objective.
No need for guidance, no need for striving to establish the system, no right and wrong, no judgement, no heaven and hell. It's a prewritten story and one that we have no say in. This is the very crux of the matter.
Hmm...why is this a crux of the system? It's not like any of this is relevent to our lives. I mean, do you care that the US government has more information about your country than you? No, probably not. Why not? Because there's nothing you can do about it. Basically, it's irrelevent. I don't view this as a crux at all; in fact it ties in with the meaning of Islam really well. Islam is submission - submission to the will of god once one realises that one is nothing more than a pawn in the long grand game of the creation. There's no other path than submission in my opinion, as that is the only way one can attain happiness.
Your logical state machine, viewed at any moment in time, reveals the paths that we have chosen and where they are headed. But it does not bind us to the future path, it only shows where they currently lead. One change tomorrow could draw a completely new path, albeit, within the predetermined possibilities.
I've heard this theory before - it's about god knowing all probable outcomes but us having the freedom to choose between said set of probably outcomes right? I disagree with this one because this one again falls into the pit of contradiction with omniscience. To be omniscient is to know all. There's no sidestepping around the word "all" - to know all is to have knowledge of the past, present, and future. If there is a finite set of possibilities (which there are...), then to say that us humans can choose between A, and B, and C without god's knowledge/consent is a direct contradiction of god's omnisciencce. I mean take for example a program - if I knew everything about the program, or if I was omniscient over the program, then I know what the result would be each and every time. If I had to guess and say "well, it can either be 1, or 2, but not 3", then I don't know everything and thus breaks my omniscience over the program.
To think that we can make our own destiny is a direct violation of god's omniscience.
Peace.
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This fits in perfectly fine with the model I proposed because we don't know the state of every single particle within the universe but god does. Thus we dont know our futures and we can never know our future and to us, everything is still a choice.
Salam Bro,
I do not agree. It is not a deterministic Universe (because of free-will enabled elements in it) and If it was there would no free-will. You are basically saying your really don't have a choice, but since you don't know it, then you can just act as if you had one. pretend.Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Salam Nadia, Tay and All,
If the former, then we can think that God did not know something when He conceived the plan. And if the latter, then where's the love eh? Or is it that when God conceived it, designed it, created it and it happened, it was all one event which happened according to God, in one fell swoop.
In my previous post I said there are two kinds of knowledge... the general one has all of the above in it... in it every soul did everything it could possibly do... end up in heaven and also end up in hell.
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God can never be surprised by no soul's actions, they are all in the book, also no one could do anything other than what is that book... for that book says "what can possibly exist"... if it is not in that book, then it does not and can not exist, this is physics.
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God is perfectly Just. people see Him unjust because they don't believe in this second book, second kind of knowledge.. they believe God only knows what people are going to do, and not what they can do....
Tay,
Yes, we are on the same page I believe.
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
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Peace Mohamed,
God is perfectly Just. people see Him unjust because they don't believe in this second book, second kind of knowledge.. they believe God only knows what people are going to do, and not what they can do....
Completely agree, all this human compassion etc is just a cause of confusion and as neo put it, is bringing God down to our level.
God can never be surprised by no soul's actions, they are all in the book, also no one could do anything other than what is that book... for that book says "what can possibly exist"... if it is not in that book, then it does not and can not exist, this is physics.
Okay i understand that, but i have a question for you...do you believe at any point in our time that God did NOT know something? Or do you believe that God knows ALL at every point in our time? Do you think God is all knowing if so then
Like for example mz suggests that God does NOT know the results of our actions..is there ANY way to reconcile this to an all knowing God?
tia
Nadia
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I've heard this theory before - it's about god knowing all probable outcomes but us having the freedom to choose between said set of probably outcomes right? I disagree with this one because this one again falls into the pit of contradiction with omniscience. To be omniscient is to know all. There's no sidestepping around the word "all" - to know all is to have knowledge of the past, present, and future. If there is a finite set of possibilities (which there are...), then to say that us humans can choose between A, and B, and C without god's knowledge/consent is a direct contradiction of god's omnisciencce. I mean take for example a program - if I knew everything about the program, or if I was omniscient over the program, then I know what the result would be each and every time. If I had to guess and say "well, it can either be 1, or 2, but not 3", then I don't know everything and thus breaks my omniscience over the program.
To think that we can make our own destiny is a direct violation of god's omniscience.
The above clearly and perfectly describes the heart of the issue. and I disagree of couse, but thanks for putting it that nicely.
The difference between a computer program as we know it and the Universe is that the Universe is a program with free-will empowerd elements in it. To put it very blantly Free-will = Cannot determine which path I will take. You, the programmer still have to create, bring into existence the paths themselves, but me, the free element has the pwoer to choose. Omnisciene is knowing all the paths, all the outcomes, which God has to create anywhays, because He alone creates.
If there are paths you do not want the program to take, you simply do not create them.
You say To be omniscient is to know all. There's no sidestepping around the word "all" . I agree with that... but you do not! You say to be omniscient is to know only the paths the program actually takes, and not those it wont take anyway...
There is inherently no diffference between the paths we take and those we dont... they all equally exist, they all equally must be known to the creator.
God' consent, again, is given implicitly when He creates. If you do something, it is because He agreed, for if He did not, He would not have created it to begin with. You do not want but what Allah wants.
You basically believe that the god of a deterministic Universe is supperior to that of a non-deterministic one. I guess that is your opinion. I belive this universe we live in is non-deterministic. I believe the god of this Universe decided to give free-will from Himself and share it with mankind.... free-will removes determinism, but that is His decision.
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Okay i understand that, but i have a question for you...do you believe at any point in our time that God did NOT know something? Or do you believe that God knows ALL at every point in our time? Do you think God is all knowing if so then
Like for example mz suggests that God does NOT know the results of our actions..is there ANY way to reconcile this to an all knowing God?
Salam Sister,
There are two book with God... simplistically, one has all the paths in it, and is static, the other one has what actually took place.... At any moment, eevrything is in the first book, and only the past is in the second... as you do things, they show up in the second.
Can we say God, at certain moment, does not know something? No, for everything is recorded in the first book. How can He not know? I am a little avoiding the answer you want me to say )
Here are a couple of verses for you... what do you think they are saying?
293
al-imraan140
al-imraan142
al-maaida94
al-tawba16
al-baqara143
muhammad31
al-kahf12Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace brother Mohamed,
Can we say God, at certain moment, does not know something? No, for everything is recorded in the first book. How can He not know? I am a little avoiding the answer you want me to say
Ah, i understand now ) Thank you!
Nadia
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Salaams,all.
If He knows everything ,then is he dynamic -alive or is he static-still alive in that case but nothing more to know?Don't mind but being static is that being alive?
If he knows everything what more is there for him to know?
And lastly Do you really think he knows something that doesn't exist -yet?
Thanks to all.
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Peace mz,
God knowing ALL is something our human senses find it very hard to accept...
But, here is the important thing...we either say He knows ALL ever...or doesn't...things will make sense depending on our perspectives.
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Salaams,
Me i would eccept him - i think , as something dynamic,so knowing all that is and was but continueing with doing what he is doing,and unless you look at all his attributes we can't even start to grasp and fathom what he could be.Thanks.
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Peace Neo,
You stated,
it can be seen that almost all (in fact, all) our decisions are a function of our prior experiences and other external bias.
I disagree. We are not machines. Experience plus experience will not always lead to decision . Sometimes people do things competely out of character, just for the hell of it. To bottle up the human psyche in such defined terms is a mistake, in my opinion.
In fact, one can't even claim that humans can make that kind of unbiased judgement and provide any proof for it.
The only way I can think of to prove or disprove a bias is to know all experiences of a person as well as all outside influences, in addition to the personality type and all it's intricacies, and then ask the person a question with a predicted answer, and judge the results based on how many times the predicted answer was chosen.
To my knowledge, no one has ever conducted an experiment of this sort. There are all types of logisitical problems in gathering this sort of information, starting with getting someone to commit the mounatin of time to perform this study in the standard double-blind placebo format. Second, getting people to relay all this information in honesty. Please correct me if I'm wrong or provide a reference to a different study that proves all decisions are biased.
There's no other path than submission in my opinion, as that is the only way one can attain happiness.
If there is no other path, then why does suffering exist? Why are some people unhappy? Once you accept pre-destiny, or fatalism, then you are stuck with a large pile of crucial question that need answering.
e.g.
Allah is Al-Rahman
RAHMA or RAHMAT has the following meanings
-Mercy
-Pity
-Compassion
-Tenderness
-Beneficence
-Pardon
-Forgiveness
-Favour
-Sustenance
-Means of subsistence
-Plenty of herbage, or of goods, conveniences, or comforts of lifeIf it's all prewritten, and I'm destined for Hell, then nothing I can do will save me from Hell. Where is the pardoning? The forgiveness? The compassion? The justice?
Ponder this
225 And convey happy news to those who have chosen to be graced with belief, and have done acts of service to humanity.This is a choice
262 Behold, those who attain belief in this Divine Writ and call themselves Muslims, and those who are Jews, and Christians and the Agnostics - whoever truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and benefits humanity, surely their reward is with their Lord. For them shall be no fear from without, nor shall grief touch them from within.
Reward for what? For not choosing? For doing exactly what we were programmed to do? It doesn't add up bro.
Predestiny contradicts the very essence of Allah, and it contradicts the very essence of the Qur'an, and in my opinion, the belief in predestiny is the thorn in the side of Islam that has lead to widescale complacency.
to say that us humans can choose between A, and B, and C without god's knowledge/consent is a direct contradiction of god's omnisciencce.
But it is not without God's consent. As Mohamed has explained quite eloquently, we can choose because it is our God-given right, and we choose between that which God has allowed us to choose.
219 We always fulfilled Our Promise to them. We saved them and all those who were worthy to be saved according to Our Law and We destroyed those who had wasted their own ?Self.?
2110 O Mankind! Now We have revealed unto you a Book that is all about you and it will give you eminence. Will you not, then, use your sense? (2124, 2370, 4343-44).The Qur'an is the roadmap to the path of Allah. If all was prewritten, why do we need the Qur'an at all?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
Everyone has different perspectives on this as was expected...
Please think about this verse
230 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not.
Has anyone thought about the fact that before adam was kicked out and iblis and those that followed him, God knew that mankind was going to end up on earth? Any thoughts regarding this? Do we have a timeline/progression for these events? Any help would be appreciated...
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Can you read Gods mind of what he had planned to do nadia- with respect?
Salaams.
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Salaams nadia -please disregard my previous post that was a short sight.
i am off on a long drive.Salaams. -
That was a strange statement coming from you mz, with respect...all i'm saying is what the verses are saying...maybe you think all of them are 'mistranslated'.
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Has anyone thought about the fact that before adam was kicked out and iblis and those that followed him, God knew that mankind was going to end up on earth? Any thoughts regarding this? Do we have a timeline/progression for these events? Any help would be appreciated...
Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
Mohamed~
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Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
What are these verses saying then??
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But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."So what do you think this is? Satan caused primitive man to become civilised and live somwhere else rather than a forestic region? Please explain, thanks.
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Salam Sister,
Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
What are these verses saying then??
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But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."So what do you think this is? Satan caused primitive man to become civilised and live somwhere else rather than a forestic region? Please explain, thanks.
First you need to realize that the word janna,where Adam is said to have been, and from where he was ordered out, that word is definitely used in the Quran to describe gardens on earth, as well as the eternal paradise. Examples Al-Kahf32, Al-Israa'a91 and Al-Mu'amunuun19
Then you need to notice that the descriptions given of Adam's janna are way different that those given of the eternal janna. Adam's is described in Taha118-119 as being a place where you will not go naked and you will not go hungry... there will be abundant food and abundant clothing/covering? that's it.
Satan tricked Adam by making him believe he could become eternal by eating from a special tree... so eternity was not there in that garden. taha120 al-aAAraf20
So Adam knew about death... it was surrounding him all the time, he knew about hunger as well, and thirst... If there were no such things, if he was really in "The garden", described elsewhere in the Quran as being with no imperfections, no sorrow, no shortage.... if that was the case than Satan's trick would not have worked, or even make sense at all.In the verse above, Adam is ordered "to descend" from it, the verb is "habata", which is not the one usually used in the Quran to describe the descending of orders or things from the above domains to our domain... for that the verbs used are "nazzala" and "anzala". "habata" is used for example in 261, as an order to COI to "get down to Egypt"... were they in heaven then?
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace Mohamed,
First you need to realize that the word janna,where Adam is said to have been, and from where he was ordered out, that word is definitely used in the Quran to describe gardens on earth, as well as the eternal paradise. Examples Al-Kahf32, Al-Israa'a91 and Al-Mu'amunuun19
So the word gardens used are for both...as is apparent...
Then you need to notice that the descriptions given of Adam's janna are way different that those given of the eternal janna. Adam's is described in Taha118-119 as being a place where you will not go naked and you will not go hungry... there will be abundant food and abundant clothing/covering? that's it.
Adam has not been tested yet has he? He can't receive the eternal garden as he has not been tested yet...but he can receive 'a' garden...
Satan tricked Adam by making him believe he could become eternal by eating from a special tree... so eternity was not there in that garden. taha120 al-aAAraf20
Eternity is only granted by God...not from a tree, therefore whichever tree adam would have eaten from would not have granted him eternity unless the God willed it.
So Adam knew about death... it was surrounding him all the time, he knew about hunger as well, and thirst... If there were no such things, if he was really in "The garden", described elsewhere in the Quran as being with no imperfections, no sorrow, no shortage.... if that was the case than Satan's trick would not have worked, or even make sense at all.
If the description of the garden is such that there was abundant everything, and there was no 'need' as such...then adam did what humans do anyway, whether they are blessed with a lot or not. The eternal garden is one we shall receive 'after' being tested, and adam was not yet tested. All mankind must be tested.
In the verse above, Adam is ordered "to descend" from it, the verb is "habata", which is not the one usually used in the Quran to describe the descending of ordered or things from the above domains to our domain... for that the verbs used are "nazzala" and "anzala". "habata" is used for example in 261, as an order to COI to "get down to Egypt"... were they in heaven then?
isn't nazala used for revelations from where God is etc? and also can this word be used to mean a change of state or going forth etc...if it can then it can go either way.
Would like to discuss...tia.