All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice
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Peace brother Mohamed,
Can we say God, at certain moment, does not know something? No, for everything is recorded in the first book. How can He not know? I am a little avoiding the answer you want me to say
Ah, i understand now ) Thank you!
Nadia
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Salaams,all.
If He knows everything ,then is he dynamic -alive or is he static-still alive in that case but nothing more to know?Don't mind but being static is that being alive?
If he knows everything what more is there for him to know?
And lastly Do you really think he knows something that doesn't exist -yet?
Thanks to all.
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Peace mz,
God knowing ALL is something our human senses find it very hard to accept...
But, here is the important thing...we either say He knows ALL ever...or doesn't...things will make sense depending on our perspectives.
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Salaams,
Me i would eccept him - i think , as something dynamic,so knowing all that is and was but continueing with doing what he is doing,and unless you look at all his attributes we can't even start to grasp and fathom what he could be.Thanks.
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Peace Neo,
You stated,
it can be seen that almost all (in fact, all) our decisions are a function of our prior experiences and other external bias.
I disagree. We are not machines. Experience plus experience will not always lead to decision . Sometimes people do things competely out of character, just for the hell of it. To bottle up the human psyche in such defined terms is a mistake, in my opinion.
In fact, one can't even claim that humans can make that kind of unbiased judgement and provide any proof for it.
The only way I can think of to prove or disprove a bias is to know all experiences of a person as well as all outside influences, in addition to the personality type and all it's intricacies, and then ask the person a question with a predicted answer, and judge the results based on how many times the predicted answer was chosen.
To my knowledge, no one has ever conducted an experiment of this sort. There are all types of logisitical problems in gathering this sort of information, starting with getting someone to commit the mounatin of time to perform this study in the standard double-blind placebo format. Second, getting people to relay all this information in honesty. Please correct me if I'm wrong or provide a reference to a different study that proves all decisions are biased.
There's no other path than submission in my opinion, as that is the only way one can attain happiness.
If there is no other path, then why does suffering exist? Why are some people unhappy? Once you accept pre-destiny, or fatalism, then you are stuck with a large pile of crucial question that need answering.
e.g.
Allah is Al-Rahman
RAHMA or RAHMAT has the following meanings
-Mercy
-Pity
-Compassion
-Tenderness
-Beneficence
-Pardon
-Forgiveness
-Favour
-Sustenance
-Means of subsistence
-Plenty of herbage, or of goods, conveniences, or comforts of lifeIf it's all prewritten, and I'm destined for Hell, then nothing I can do will save me from Hell. Where is the pardoning? The forgiveness? The compassion? The justice?
Ponder this
225 And convey happy news to those who have chosen to be graced with belief, and have done acts of service to humanity.This is a choice
262 Behold, those who attain belief in this Divine Writ and call themselves Muslims, and those who are Jews, and Christians and the Agnostics - whoever truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and benefits humanity, surely their reward is with their Lord. For them shall be no fear from without, nor shall grief touch them from within.
Reward for what? For not choosing? For doing exactly what we were programmed to do? It doesn't add up bro.
Predestiny contradicts the very essence of Allah, and it contradicts the very essence of the Qur'an, and in my opinion, the belief in predestiny is the thorn in the side of Islam that has lead to widescale complacency.
to say that us humans can choose between A, and B, and C without god's knowledge/consent is a direct contradiction of god's omnisciencce.
But it is not without God's consent. As Mohamed has explained quite eloquently, we can choose because it is our God-given right, and we choose between that which God has allowed us to choose.
219 We always fulfilled Our Promise to them. We saved them and all those who were worthy to be saved according to Our Law and We destroyed those who had wasted their own ?Self.?
2110 O Mankind! Now We have revealed unto you a Book that is all about you and it will give you eminence. Will you not, then, use your sense? (2124, 2370, 4343-44).The Qur'an is the roadmap to the path of Allah. If all was prewritten, why do we need the Qur'an at all?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
Everyone has different perspectives on this as was expected...
Please think about this verse
230 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not.
Has anyone thought about the fact that before adam was kicked out and iblis and those that followed him, God knew that mankind was going to end up on earth? Any thoughts regarding this? Do we have a timeline/progression for these events? Any help would be appreciated...
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Can you read Gods mind of what he had planned to do nadia- with respect?
Salaams.
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Salaams nadia -please disregard my previous post that was a short sight.
i am off on a long drive.Salaams. -
That was a strange statement coming from you mz, with respect...all i'm saying is what the verses are saying...maybe you think all of them are 'mistranslated'.
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Has anyone thought about the fact that before adam was kicked out and iblis and those that followed him, God knew that mankind was going to end up on earth? Any thoughts regarding this? Do we have a timeline/progression for these events? Any help would be appreciated...
Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
Mohamed~
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Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
What are these verses saying then??
236
But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."So what do you think this is? Satan caused primitive man to become civilised and live somwhere else rather than a forestic region? Please explain, thanks.
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Salam Sister,
Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
What are these verses saying then??
236
But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."So what do you think this is? Satan caused primitive man to become civilised and live somwhere else rather than a forestic region? Please explain, thanks.
First you need to realize that the word janna,where Adam is said to have been, and from where he was ordered out, that word is definitely used in the Quran to describe gardens on earth, as well as the eternal paradise. Examples Al-Kahf32, Al-Israa'a91 and Al-Mu'amunuun19
Then you need to notice that the descriptions given of Adam's janna are way different that those given of the eternal janna. Adam's is described in Taha118-119 as being a place where you will not go naked and you will not go hungry... there will be abundant food and abundant clothing/covering? that's it.
Satan tricked Adam by making him believe he could become eternal by eating from a special tree... so eternity was not there in that garden. taha120 al-aAAraf20
So Adam knew about death... it was surrounding him all the time, he knew about hunger as well, and thirst... If there were no such things, if he was really in "The garden", described elsewhere in the Quran as being with no imperfections, no sorrow, no shortage.... if that was the case than Satan's trick would not have worked, or even make sense at all.In the verse above, Adam is ordered "to descend" from it, the verb is "habata", which is not the one usually used in the Quran to describe the descending of orders or things from the above domains to our domain... for that the verbs used are "nazzala" and "anzala". "habata" is used for example in 261, as an order to COI to "get down to Egypt"... were they in heaven then?
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace Mohamed,
First you need to realize that the word janna,where Adam is said to have been, and from where he was ordered out, that word is definitely used in the Quran to describe gardens on earth, as well as the eternal paradise. Examples Al-Kahf32, Al-Israa'a91 and Al-Mu'amunuun19
So the word gardens used are for both...as is apparent...
Then you need to notice that the descriptions given of Adam's janna are way different that those given of the eternal janna. Adam's is described in Taha118-119 as being a place where you will not go naked and you will not go hungry... there will be abundant food and abundant clothing/covering? that's it.
Adam has not been tested yet has he? He can't receive the eternal garden as he has not been tested yet...but he can receive 'a' garden...
Satan tricked Adam by making him believe he could become eternal by eating from a special tree... so eternity was not there in that garden. taha120 al-aAAraf20
Eternity is only granted by God...not from a tree, therefore whichever tree adam would have eaten from would not have granted him eternity unless the God willed it.
So Adam knew about death... it was surrounding him all the time, he knew about hunger as well, and thirst... If there were no such things, if he was really in "The garden", described elsewhere in the Quran as being with no imperfections, no sorrow, no shortage.... if that was the case than Satan's trick would not have worked, or even make sense at all.
If the description of the garden is such that there was abundant everything, and there was no 'need' as such...then adam did what humans do anyway, whether they are blessed with a lot or not. The eternal garden is one we shall receive 'after' being tested, and adam was not yet tested. All mankind must be tested.
In the verse above, Adam is ordered "to descend" from it, the verb is "habata", which is not the one usually used in the Quran to describe the descending of ordered or things from the above domains to our domain... for that the verbs used are "nazzala" and "anzala". "habata" is used for example in 261, as an order to COI to "get down to Egypt"... were they in heaven then?
isn't nazala used for revelations from where God is etc? and also can this word be used to mean a change of state or going forth etc...if it can then it can go either way.
Would like to discuss...tia.
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Peace,
The 'question' i meant was, 'isn't nazala used for revelations from God'...sentence is constructed wrong. God is everywhere isn't He? Please don't answer as the former is a rhetorical question.
Btw, nice to see that you can post questions on the 'public' forum to me but refuse to answer my pm regarding technical questions.
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Salaam Nadia
Regarding your pm I'm sorry that I did not answer fast enough for you. It's not that I did not refuse, I usually look at my pm's and do not respond in haste. Usually I forget until I take a look into my box again. Again I apologize for not meeting your request, though I do not think bringing a private matter between us into the open is the most respectful thing to do.
Take care.
Joe
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Peace
Haste? It was sent for a long enough time...and after i sent the other pm, maybe you should have been a little more polite and responded then? It isn't just one pm we are talking about is there?
What private matter? If you can't reply to my pm's even weeks after, then maybe the only way i can get in touch with you to get my points across are through the 'public' forum? Or maybe u prefer i shouldn't get in touch at all...sorry but i deserve a little respect and politeness, or maybe just a little explanation...maybe you think you don't need to?
You talk to me about being respectful when there is no issue of disrespect here from my side...were you respectful enough to answer my pm's? Remember it's not one pm we are talking about. You could have explained when the sent you the other.
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Salaam Nadia
In your second pm you said to forget about it, i.e. your previous pm. Thus you invalidated the matter already. There would be no need for me to respond afterwards or ever. Also when you sent those pm's I was not home so I could not respond since I was away at my family's house and planning to go to Puerto Rico (which I regrettably could not do since school starts so early). So no I did not respond at all simply because you had already nullified the matter. Thank you and goodbye.
Joe
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Peace
That was not the only thing i wrote did i? The last sentence in the last pm completely deserved a reply as that would be an explanation as to why you did not respond. Thank you and goodbye.
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isn't nazala used for revelations from where God is etc? and also can this word be used to mean a change of state or going forth etc...if it can then it can go either way.
Would like to discuss...tia.
Salam Sister,
You agreed with most of what I said... Ok, let's try again...
You say Adam was not on planet earth... he was in heaven, then was sent down to earth...
I say Adam is result of evolutionary devolepment that took place on earth. From earth we came to it we return.
You have me one verse that says Adam was ordered to "descend" and live on earth... I showed that verse could be understood in a context where Adam lives on earth, probabaly in a forest, and was made to leave that envirement where he had cover and easy food, to an envirement where life was tougher, hot and where he had to work more to survive.
As for nazal, yes it is used for the revelation. but the verb used in the verse you present is habata, not nazala, nor anzala. and that is indeed my point.
Peace,
Mohamed~