All Knowing/Preordination/Free Choice
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Salam Sister,
Man was creaed on earth. the garden is a forestic region where that primitive man used to live...
What are these verses saying then??
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But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."So what do you think this is? Satan caused primitive man to become civilised and live somwhere else rather than a forestic region? Please explain, thanks.
First you need to realize that the word janna,where Adam is said to have been, and from where he was ordered out, that word is definitely used in the Quran to describe gardens on earth, as well as the eternal paradise. Examples Al-Kahf32, Al-Israa'a91 and Al-Mu'amunuun19
Then you need to notice that the descriptions given of Adam's janna are way different that those given of the eternal janna. Adam's is described in Taha118-119 as being a place where you will not go naked and you will not go hungry... there will be abundant food and abundant clothing/covering? that's it.
Satan tricked Adam by making him believe he could become eternal by eating from a special tree... so eternity was not there in that garden. taha120 al-aAAraf20
So Adam knew about death... it was surrounding him all the time, he knew about hunger as well, and thirst... If there were no such things, if he was really in "The garden", described elsewhere in the Quran as being with no imperfections, no sorrow, no shortage.... if that was the case than Satan's trick would not have worked, or even make sense at all.In the verse above, Adam is ordered "to descend" from it, the verb is "habata", which is not the one usually used in the Quran to describe the descending of orders or things from the above domains to our domain... for that the verbs used are "nazzala" and "anzala". "habata" is used for example in 261, as an order to COI to "get down to Egypt"... were they in heaven then?
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace Mohamed,
First you need to realize that the word janna,where Adam is said to have been, and from where he was ordered out, that word is definitely used in the Quran to describe gardens on earth, as well as the eternal paradise. Examples Al-Kahf32, Al-Israa'a91 and Al-Mu'amunuun19
So the word gardens used are for both...as is apparent...
Then you need to notice that the descriptions given of Adam's janna are way different that those given of the eternal janna. Adam's is described in Taha118-119 as being a place where you will not go naked and you will not go hungry... there will be abundant food and abundant clothing/covering? that's it.
Adam has not been tested yet has he? He can't receive the eternal garden as he has not been tested yet...but he can receive 'a' garden...
Satan tricked Adam by making him believe he could become eternal by eating from a special tree... so eternity was not there in that garden. taha120 al-aAAraf20
Eternity is only granted by God...not from a tree, therefore whichever tree adam would have eaten from would not have granted him eternity unless the God willed it.
So Adam knew about death... it was surrounding him all the time, he knew about hunger as well, and thirst... If there were no such things, if he was really in "The garden", described elsewhere in the Quran as being with no imperfections, no sorrow, no shortage.... if that was the case than Satan's trick would not have worked, or even make sense at all.
If the description of the garden is such that there was abundant everything, and there was no 'need' as such...then adam did what humans do anyway, whether they are blessed with a lot or not. The eternal garden is one we shall receive 'after' being tested, and adam was not yet tested. All mankind must be tested.
In the verse above, Adam is ordered "to descend" from it, the verb is "habata", which is not the one usually used in the Quran to describe the descending of ordered or things from the above domains to our domain... for that the verbs used are "nazzala" and "anzala". "habata" is used for example in 261, as an order to COI to "get down to Egypt"... were they in heaven then?
isn't nazala used for revelations from where God is etc? and also can this word be used to mean a change of state or going forth etc...if it can then it can go either way.
Would like to discuss...tia.
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Peace,
The 'question' i meant was, 'isn't nazala used for revelations from God'...sentence is constructed wrong. God is everywhere isn't He? Please don't answer as the former is a rhetorical question.
Btw, nice to see that you can post questions on the 'public' forum to me but refuse to answer my pm regarding technical questions.
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Salaam Nadia
Regarding your pm I'm sorry that I did not answer fast enough for you. It's not that I did not refuse, I usually look at my pm's and do not respond in haste. Usually I forget until I take a look into my box again. Again I apologize for not meeting your request, though I do not think bringing a private matter between us into the open is the most respectful thing to do.
Take care.
Joe
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Peace
Haste? It was sent for a long enough time...and after i sent the other pm, maybe you should have been a little more polite and responded then? It isn't just one pm we are talking about is there?
What private matter? If you can't reply to my pm's even weeks after, then maybe the only way i can get in touch with you to get my points across are through the 'public' forum? Or maybe u prefer i shouldn't get in touch at all...sorry but i deserve a little respect and politeness, or maybe just a little explanation...maybe you think you don't need to?
You talk to me about being respectful when there is no issue of disrespect here from my side...were you respectful enough to answer my pm's? Remember it's not one pm we are talking about. You could have explained when the sent you the other.
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Salaam Nadia
In your second pm you said to forget about it, i.e. your previous pm. Thus you invalidated the matter already. There would be no need for me to respond afterwards or ever. Also when you sent those pm's I was not home so I could not respond since I was away at my family's house and planning to go to Puerto Rico (which I regrettably could not do since school starts so early). So no I did not respond at all simply because you had already nullified the matter. Thank you and goodbye.
Joe
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Peace
That was not the only thing i wrote did i? The last sentence in the last pm completely deserved a reply as that would be an explanation as to why you did not respond. Thank you and goodbye.
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isn't nazala used for revelations from where God is etc? and also can this word be used to mean a change of state or going forth etc...if it can then it can go either way.
Would like to discuss...tia.
Salam Sister,
You agreed with most of what I said... Ok, let's try again...
You say Adam was not on planet earth... he was in heaven, then was sent down to earth...
I say Adam is result of evolutionary devolepment that took place on earth. From earth we came to it we return.
You have me one verse that says Adam was ordered to "descend" and live on earth... I showed that verse could be understood in a context where Adam lives on earth, probabaly in a forest, and was made to leave that envirement where he had cover and easy food, to an envirement where life was tougher, hot and where he had to work more to survive.
As for nazal, yes it is used for the revelation. but the verb used in the verse you present is habata, not nazala, nor anzala. and that is indeed my point.
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace brother,
Yes you have a completely valid pov...it's quite inetersting )
Just wanted to add, that it's not necessarily the only pov based on the verses in question.
You say Adam was not on planet earth... he was in heaven, then was sent down to earth...
He was the first...he might be on earth, he might have been sent there from 'a' garden...btw just a question...do you think the the allegories of eternal gardens that the believers will receive would be on earth or on another earthlike earth??
Okay another thing i'd like you to make a little clearer is that if adam was primitive man, living in a forestic region and told to go forth from it..does that mean that God destroyed the primitive forestic region in adam's lifetime? Otherwise couldn't his immediate generation go back? The time elapsed would be quite important if we are talking evolution from primitive forestic regions to man going forth to civilisation...what differences were there that could acheive such a drastic leap in one person's lifetime, a person that was always adam...created adam.
As for nazal, yes it is used for the revelation. but the verb used in the verse you present is habata, not nazala, nor anzala. and that is indeed my point.
I was talking about habata, that may mean change of state/go forth etc? It could go either way.
Also, wanted to know, in the verse in question...this is adam we are talking about...How did the malaika know that 'mankind' was going to create bloodshed and corruption on earth (and thus who would glorify God and who wouldn't leading to more important questions like believers and unbelievers)? God also knows that that's what they would do, thus the answer i know what you don't know. Or does it mean that adam only would create bloodshed and corruption? This is before mankind was mankind, just adam...your thoughts?
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He was the first...he might be on earth, he might have been sent there from 'a' garden...btw just a question...do you think the the allegories of eternal gardens that the believers will receive would be on earth or on another earthlike earth??
A verse clearly says "The day the earth will be replaced by another earth, and the heavens by new heavens". I can look it up for you.
I believe at this Universe will collapse into big crunch, out of which a new big bang will result, a new Universe will develop, with new physics laws that will generate the life that the Quran promises...Okay another thing i'd like you to make a little clearer is that if adam was primitive man, living in a forestic region and told to go forth from it..does that mean that God destroyed the primitive forestic region in adam's lifetime? Otherwise couldn't his immediate generation go back? The time elapsed would be quite important if we are talking evolution from primitive forestic regions to man going forth to civilisation...what differences were there that could achieve such a drastic leap in one person's lifetime, a person that was always adam...created adam.
I believe Adam is a name of mankind at a certain evolutionary stage. homo-sapiens sapiens probably. Some verses might still be talking about a specific individual from that "race", mankind. As to the Angels, they probably are talking about the ancestors of Adam.
Peace,
Mohamed~