please take part(survey),R you a hadithandquran or quarnonly
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Peace be upon you,
There is an error in this question.
The reading(quran) IS a hadith. The word "hadith" only means a story.
The God calls the THIS reading(quran) the BEST HADITH.So we should NOT say we do not follow hadith, we do. We just follow the BEST HADITH, which is th etruthful story that can be verified in everyday life.
Regarding war, I have a 10 year old daughter. I hope she will wage war her entire life. But what I mean by war is the internal struggle within herself against "shaytaan" the rejected. As well as the MENTAL battle in the outer world. NEVER the physical battle unless she is attacked.
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Peace y'all,
There is an error in this question.
No, there is no error in this question. It is a good question and it was asked the only way it can and should be asked.
The reading(quran) IS a hadith. The word "hadith" only means a story.
The God calls the THIS reading(quran) the BEST HADITH.The Quran IS The Reading. The word "hadith" is not only defined as a story. It is also defined as a "Narration". Anything can be narrated, true stories, fictional stories, a play-by-play announcement of a football game,etc.
Yes, occasionally GOD says the Quran is the BEST HADITH, but not to give the Quran an alternative name, only to make a point that between the hadith recited by GOD and the hearsay hadith recited by man, GOD's hadith will always be the trustworthy. GOD also calls The Quran Ad-Dhikr(The Rememberance), Al-Furqaan(The Criterion/Standard) and Al-Kitaab(The Book). Are you going to make it a point to call the Quran all of these other attributes as well, when it is already known and agreed upon as The Quran?
Anyone who is a GOD Alone/Quran Alone believer will understand the question and the intent behind the question perfectly. Why would someone want to come and try to complicate the subject at hand with the word games. That's what's wrong with too many of us now.
So we should NOT say we do not follow hadith,
Actually, we "SHOULD" say that we do not follow hadith when we have made the decision to reject hadith and so-called sunnah.
So we should NOT say we do not follow hadith, we do.
No we don't because we all know what the author of this thread meant by his question and we are all aware of what is known to be "Hadith".
We just follow the BEST HADITH, which is th etruthful story that can be verified in everyday life.
As I pointed out above, this is NOT an alternative name for the Quran. It is only one of the Quran's many attributes such as dhikr and hikma. Every attribute GOD has used to "DESCRIBE" the essence of the Quran, GOD has made sure that His point was well made as to WHY He called it such. In the case of husnal hadith, it is only to make the point that GOD is more trustworthy of narrating something than man is.
GOD has already informed us of what it is that we are reading and taking guidance from. It is The Quran. That's what He has called it, and that's what it is.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
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There is an error in this question.No, there is no error in this question. It is a good question and it was asked the only way it can and should be asked.
Respected brother, this reading(quran) that we study is called the best HADITH. Do you agree to that or disagree?
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The reading(quran) IS a hadith. The word "hadith" only means a story.
The God calls the THIS reading(quran) the BEST HADITH.The Quran IS The Reading.
The quran (not Quran) is one of many readings/narrations/stories. What seperates THIS reading from the others is that it has no contradictions, that is the criterion for knowing that it is from the God.
The word "hadith" is not only defined as a story. It is also defined as a "Narration". Anything can be narrated, true stories, fictional stories, a play-by-play announcement of a football game,etc.
Brother a narration IS a story, it is the same thing. Here is the list of synonyms for narration from dictionary.com
Syn Account; recital; rehearsal; relation; description; explanation; detail; narrative; story; tale; history.
Yes, occasionally GOD says the Quran is the BEST HADITH, but not to give the Quran an alternative name, only to make a point that between the hadith recited by GOD and the hearsay hadith recited by man, GOD's hadith will always be the trustworthy.
Can we talk in english? Why is it difficult to translate the word "quran"? If you start translating it as "reading", and "hadith" as "story" then it will all come together. Why do you use the word "occasionally" in the above quote? Does it indicate that because it is not used in every single verse that it is not a "hadith"? The God says clearly that it is the BEST story(hadith), and that was the point of my post. It is useless to debate against that. I am not trying to change the "name" of this reading(quran) because it does not HAVE a name, only attributes, just like the God, He is above names, we know Him by His attributes. It is MAN that creates these titles, these divisions, these sects.
GOD also calls The Quran Ad-Dhikr(The Rememberance), Al-Furqaan(The Criterion/Standard) and Al-Kitaab(The Book). Are you going to make it a point to call the Quran all of these other attributes as well, when it is already known and agreed upon as The Quran?
Yes, I call this reading by all of its names when appropriate. What do you mean that the word "quran" is agreed upon? Agreed upon by whom? And since when is that evidence? The fact is that these TITLES are made up, they are attributes, not titles. "Agreed upon"
(5323) These are but that you named, you and your fathers/forefathers, The God did not descend with it from a proof/evidence , truly they follow except the doubt/suspicion , and what the minds (nafs) desire/attract , and the guidance had (E) come to them from their Lord.
Anyone who is a GOD Alone/Quran Alone believer will understand the question and the intent behind the question perfectly.
Yes, I "understand" the question because I have been studying for a very long time, but that does not, in any way, make the initial question correct. The reading (quran in arabic) is called the BEST story(hadith). Do you agree or disagree?
Why would someone want to come and try to complicate the subject at hand with the word games. That's what's wrong with too many of us now.
If anything is wrong, it is taking "agreed upon" as proof. The christians "agreed upon" Jesus being G-d, should we follow that also?
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So we should NOT say we do not follow hadith,Actually, we "SHOULD" say that we do not follow hadith when we have made the decision to reject hadith and so-called sunnah.
That is CLEARLY incorrect. If the God calls the reading the best STORY(hadith), how can you say you reject STORIES (hadith)? You see, when we are not afraid to translate these words, it becomes increasingly clear. Do you see my point brother?
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So we should NOT say we do not follow hadith, we do.No we don't because we all know what the author of this thread meant by his question and we are all aware of what is known to be "Hadith".
Yes, MOST of us know what the author meant, but a newcomer will not know. We cannot be lazy in our writing, because the word is POWERFUL. The God teaches by means of the Pen. He tells us to READ. If this reading(quran) is a hadith, how can we logically reject hadith? Instead, we follow the God's hadith, not mans hadith, and the only way to seperate the two is by contradictions, the truth has no contradictions and can be verified.
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We just follow the BEST HADITH, which is th etruthful story that can be verified in everyday life.As I pointed out above, this is NOT an alternative name for the Quran. It is only one of the Quran's many attributes such as dhikr and hikma.
I agree 100%, the reading does not have a name, only attributes. I NEVER said "best hadith" was a name, I have no authority to do such, and I would not "agree upon" such a thing.
Every attribute GOD has used to "DESCRIBE" the essence of the Quran, GOD has made sure that His point was well made as to WHY He called it such. In the case of husnal hadith, it is only to make the point that GOD is more trustworthy of narrating something than man is.
WHat made you think I disagreed with that?
GOD has already informed us of what it is that we are reading and taking guidance from. It is The Quran. That's what He has called it, and that's what it is.
As you have already repeated more than once, the God has DESCRIBED it by MANY ATTRIBUTES, where is your PROOF that the word "quran" is the TITLE?
(7435-36) That it truly is one of the greatest! A warning to the human
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Salaam,
Respected brother, this reading(quran) that we study is called the best HADITH. Do you agree to that or disagree?
I disagree with the extant to which YOU are trying to carry it. GOD refers to His revelation as The Quran countless times where as I can count on my hands how many times He uses The Best Hadith as a description of the Reading.
The quran (not Quran) is one of many readings/narrations/stories. What seperates THIS reading from the others is that it has no contradictions, that is the criterion for knowing that it is from the God.
What seperates The Quran from other narrations is that it is divinely revealed/inspired and it contains the formula needed to govern EVERY ASPECT of human life and endeavour. No other so-called narration can boast that luxury.
Brother a narration IS a story, it is the same thing. Here is the list of synonyms for narration from dictionary.com
Brother a narration is not ONLY a story. I can sit down and "NARRATE" to you the highlights of Mike Tysons last fight against that British fella hwo knocked him out a couple of weeks ago. In this case, the narration is not a story, but an actual account. I can also "narrate" to you a chapter or a few paragraphs from a non-fictional book, like Dude, where's my Country by Michael Moore. A narration is not strictly a story bro.
Can we talk in english? Why is it difficult to translate the word "quran"? If you start translating it as "reading", and "hadith" as "story" then it will all come together.
Only in your eyes bro. You are the only person to have this view. Now either you have your own ideas that others do not agree with, or your smarter than everyone else.
Why do you use the word "occasionally" in the above quote?
That should be obvious. Because GOD describes the Quran as the best hadith on only a handful of "Occasions". That's why.
Does it indicate that because it is not used in every single verse that it is not a "hadith"?
No, it indicates that you are choosing a path others will not choose based upon your reasoning. The Quran is called, by GOD HIMSELF, as The Reminder/Rememberance on FAR MORE occasions than He uses "The Best hadith". If you're going to use an alternative description of the Quran other than the word "Quran", then Al-Hikma and Ad-Dhikr are more worthy to be used than hadith due to the number of usages of each by GOD Himself.
The God says clearly that it is the BEST story(hadith), and that was the point of my post.
A point that was neither asked nor appropriate for the thread that you posted it in. Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I have a hard time seeing that the only point that you were trying to make is that GOD says that the Quran is the best hadith, because EVERYONE HERE already know that, which means that it was a point which had no need to be made.
What do you mean that the word "quran" is agreed upon? Agreed upon by whom?
Agreed upon all those who believe in it and turn to it for guidance. That include both, GOD Alone believers, and the traditional muslims.
The fact is that these TITLES are made up, they are attributes, not titles. "Agreed upon"
The fact is the attribute "Quran" is used by GOD, more than anything else, to describe the revelation that was revealed more than 1,400 years ago. The other fact is, unless GOD chose to use the attribute husunal hadith to describe His revelation more than any other attribute, then you are doing your own thing if you go out of your way to do other wise. Bottom Line.
Yes, I "understand" the question because I have been studying for a very long time, but that does not, in any way, make the initial question correct.
The initial question IS correct because the question is based upon the universal understanding of all who read it. With all due respect, who are you to say that this question is incorrect?? Who are you that you know what we do not know?? It's one thing to say that you "disagree" with a statement and to give your reasons why, but it's altogether different when someone does what you have done, which is to come out and say that someone is incorrect and you proceed to say that "YOU" have the "Correct" understanding on things.
If anything is wrong, it is taking "agreed upon" as proof. The christians "agreed upon" Jesus being G-d, should we follow that also?
With all due respect, please do not try to pull that on me. We are talking about something that is "Definate" and "Concrete" in the attribute of the Quran and something that is totally fabricated and without evidence in the Jesus doctrine. You are now mixing apples and oranges with that one.
My brother, please, PLEASE read this next statement of yours VERY CAREFULLY
That is CLEARLY incorrect.
This is EXACTLY what I was saying above!! Who are you to be saying that those who do not agree with your understanding is incorrect and to be considered correct, one must have your understanding?? I again must ask, who are you??
If the God calls the reading the best STORY(hadith), how can you say you reject STORIES (hadith)?
I'm going to ask you to either not twist what I say or read my response more carefully in case you've misunderstood. It is clear and obvious to anyone who reads that post that I reject Hadith and Sunnah!! You know full well that I meant the hadith put forth by Bukhari and Co. and I never said I reject what GOD puts forth. Please do not do that bro. I may not agree with everything that alot of brothers and sisters here believe to be truth or what not, but I never put words in peoples mouths, nor do I twist something that others say. And if I'm not sure what point is being made, I would ask that person to elaborate it for me to prevent me from responding to it with a misunderstanding.
Yes, MOST of us know what the author meant, but a newcomer will not know.
I totally disagree with that statement because all of us here, including you, had an idea of what is meant in muslims circles by the word hadith when we were new here.
If this reading(quran) is a hadith, how can we logically reject hadith?
Hopefully, for the last time, I reject the hadith of Bukhari and Co. I also reject your idea that we can call the Quran hadith based upon the very few times it is called such.
As you have already repeated more than once, the God has DESCRIBED it by MANY ATTRIBUTES, where is your PROOF that the word "quran" is the TITLE?
First of all, where in my post did I ever say that "Quran" is the TITLE???
As I said before, please read my posts carefully, that way nothing can be taken out of context.Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
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Respected brother, this reading(quran) that we study is called the best HADITH. Do you agree to that or disagree?I disagree with the extant to which YOU are trying to carry it. GOD refers to His revelation as The Quran countless times where as I can count on my hands how many times He uses The Best Hadith as a description of the Reading.
How can you disagree when you read the following verse;
(3923) The God descended the BEST NARRATION/STORY...Why are you concerned with the number of times each is used? That does not take away from the fact that the God calls this reading the BEST Narration(hadith). Please at least agree to that Crystal Clear statement.
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The quran (not Quran) is one of many readings/narrations/stories. What seperates THIS reading from the others is that it has no contradictions, that is the criterion for knowing that it is from the God.What seperates The Quran from other narrations is that it is divinely revealed/inspired and it contains the formula needed to govern EVERY ASPECT of human life and endeavour. No other so-called narration can boast that luxury.
Can you elaborate on the divinely inspired part. I was not present when this messenger recieved this message. Please give me further information on this event.
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Brother a narration IS a story, it is the same thing. Here is the list of synonyms for narration from dictionary.comBrother a narration is not ONLY a story. I can sit down and "NARRATE" to you the highlights of Mike Tysons last fight against that British fella hwo knocked him out a couple of weeks ago. In this case, the narration is not a story, but an actual account. I can also "narrate" to you a chapter or a few paragraphs from a non-fictional book, like Dude, where's my Country by Michael Moore. A narration is not strictly a story bro.
If you narrate what happenned in the Tyson fight, that would have been a TRUE STORY, right or wrong? Synonym is another word that carries the same meaning. Agan, the dictionary lists "story" as a synonym for "narration". If that is not enough evidence, here is the definition of story, which can also be found on dictionary.com
sto?ry1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (st?r, str)
n. pl. sto?ries- An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious, as
a. An account or report regarding the facts of an event or group of events The witness changed her story under questioning.
b. An anecdote came back from the trip with some good stories.
c. A lie told us a story about the dog eating the cookies.
The 4th entry under "story" was
- A news article or broadcast.
Certainly I can get a narration of the Tyson fight on the news, and that would be a news STORY D
I hope I have succesfully clarified this issue of narration and story, and I hope you have continued patience with me as I continue to clarify an issue that is hard for many of us to accept regarding the word "quran".
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Can we talk in english? Why is it difficult to translate the word "quran"? If you start translating it as "reading", and "hadith" as "story" then it will all come together.Only in your eyes bro. You are the only person to have this view. Now either you have your own ideas that others do not agree with, or your smarter than everyone else.
Why do they have to be the only options brother? Why cant we just continue this debate and do serious study on that matter, instead of just accepting what we were taught? Regarding me being the only person, here is an article written by another person December of 2003. I hope it will clarify this issue for you.
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
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Why do you use the word "occasionally" in the above quote?That should be obvious. Because GOD describes the Quran as the best hadith on only a handful of "Occasions". That's why.
So are you saying that since the God only mentioned this statement in one verse, that it is not true? Is this reading(quran) the best narration(hadith)? Yes or No. Its that simple. D Why are you adverse to it being described as the best hadith?
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Does it indicate that because it is not used in every single verse that it is not a "hadith"?No, it indicates that you are choosing a path others will not choose based upon your reasoning. The Quran is called, by GOD HIMSELF, as The Reminder/Rememberance on FAR MORE occasions than He uses "The Best hadith". If you're going to use an alternative description of the Quran other than the word "Quran", then Al-Hikma and Ad-Dhikr are more worthy to be used than hadith due to the number of usages of each by GOD Himself.
More worthy?!?!?!? shock Please tell me you are joking brother. Are you telling me that the description "best hadith (ahsana alhadeethi) " is NOT WORTHY? Who gave you the authority to say so?
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The God says clearly that it is the BEST story(hadith), and that was the point of my post.A point that was neither asked nor appropriate for the thread that you posted it in. Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I have a hard time seeing that the only point that you were trying to make is that GOD says that the Quran is the best hadith, because EVERYONE HERE already know that, which means that it was a point which had no need to be made.
It is indeed appropriate for this thread because the question is incorrectly stated no matter if everyone knows it or not. And I doubt that you are aware of how many people enter this site who have NO IDEA. Further, I don't need anyone to ask me to post, if I have input on a certain topic, then I will post. Lastly, If I was trying to prove another point, I would have explained my point in detail. If you search this forum, you will see that in every instance where I found this incorrect statement, I have addressed it with the same response. We do NOT say we are anti "hadith" because the reading(quran) IS itself a "hadith". There is no way around it.
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What do you mean that the word "quran" is agreed upon? Agreed upon by whom?Agreed upon all those who believe in it and turn to it for guidance. That include both, GOD Alone believers, and the traditional muslims.
Thats unfortunate. I guess I have a tedious job in front of me. Thank you for the oppurtunity to make this correction.
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The fact is that these TITLES are made up, they are attributes, not titles. "Agreed upon"The fact is the attribute "Quran" is used by GOD, more than anything else, to describe the revelation that was revealed more than 1,400 years ago. The other fact is, unless GOD chose to use the attribute husunal hadith to describe His revelation more than any other attribute, then you are doing your own thing if you go out of your way to do other wise. Bottom Line.
Where are you getting this numerical criteria? Please show me. Further, you can call it whatever you want, my point is proven that the statement "anti hadith" is incorrect, and as a submitter, it is my duty to point thatout, wether it was a mistake, or just not known.
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Yes, I "understand" the question because I have been studying for a very long time, but that does not, in any way, make the initial question correct.The initial question IS correct because the question is based upon the universal understanding of all who read it.
Please provide a list of all the people who read that post, can you do that?
With all due respect, who are you to say that this question is incorrect??
With continued respect, a student of the God's message to humanity. Here is is again,
(3923) The God descended the BEST NARRATION/STORY (hadith)...
So, with that said, are you anti hadith?
Who are you that you know what we do not know??
I am not sure who the "we' is you are talking about, I am debating with YOU only, I have seen no one else disagreeing with the correction I HUMBLY presented. Probably because verse 3923 leaves no doubt about it.
It's one thing to say that you "disagree" with a statement and to give your reasons why, but it's altogether different when someone does what you have done, which is to come out and say that someone is incorrect and you proceed to say that "YOU" have the "Correct" understanding on things.
Brother, there must be something else bothering you, I hope you will address it, because this is getting ridiculous. The brother posed a question which included the phrase "anti- hadith". I corrected him by showing the FACT that the reading(quran) ITSELF is a hadith, the BEST hadith. So we cannot say "anti hadith". The brother has not disagreed, and no one else has, EXCEPT you. Why is that?
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If anything is wrong, it is taking "agreed upon" as proof. The christians "agreed upon" Jesus being G-d, should we follow that also?With all due respect, please do not try to pull that on me. We are talking about something that is "Definate" and "Concrete" in the attribute of the Quran and something that is totally fabricated and without evidence in the Jesus doctrine. You are now mixing apples and oranges with that one.
Definate and concrete? You mean like verse 3923?
My brother, please, PLEASE read this next statement of yours VERY CAREFULLY
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That is CLEARLY incorrect.This is EXACTLY what I was saying above!! Who are you to be saying that those who do not agree with your understanding is incorrect and to be considered correct, one must have your understanding?? I again must ask, who are you??
I can say CLEARLY because verse 3923 is clear. Does anyone besides Damon disagree? Please speak up.
Damon, is the reading(quran) a hadith? Yes or no. Is it the best hadith? Yes or no. If you are anti hadith, then you are anti "quran". Period. There is no arrogance in that statement, it was only a correction to the question posted.
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If the God calls the reading the best STORY(hadith), how can you say you reject STORIES (hadith)?I'm going to ask you to either not twist what I say or read my response more carefully in case you've misunderstood. It is clear and obvious to anyone who reads that post that I reject Hadith and Sunnah!!
Well then you reject the book of the God which is the BEST hadith.
You know full well that I meant the hadith put forth by Bukhari and Co.
Words are used a signs to get accross a meaning. Yes, I understand what is meant, but I am not arrogant enough to not consider the people who come here to learn who are NOT aware of that. You should get in the habit of saying what you mean. No disrespect intended, and when this is all said and done, I am sure you will see that all I am doing is reminding, as we are told to do.
and I never said I reject what GOD puts forth. Please do not do that bro. I may not agree with everything that alot of brothers and sisters here believe to be truth or what not, but I never put words in peoples mouths, nor do I twist something that others say.
I did no such thing, you said you reject hadith, right? or did I put that in your mouth?
And if I'm not sure what point is being made, I would ask that person to elaborate it for me to prevent me from responding to it with a misunderstanding.
The point would be made with more clarity with the correct question.
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Yes, MOST of us know what the author meant, but a newcomer will not know.I totally disagree with that statement because all of us here, including you, had an idea of what is meant in muslims circles by the word hadith when we were new here.
I will again ask you to list the names of all the people who visited this post, can you do it?
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If this reading(quran) is a hadith, how can we logically reject hadith?Hopefully, for the last time, I reject the hadith of Bukhari and Co. I also reject your idea that we can call the Quran hadith based upon the very few times it is called such.
There is no compulsion in the system. You are free to do as you wish.
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As you have already repeated more than once, the God has DESCRIBED it by MANY ATTRIBUTES, where is your PROOF that the word "quran" is the TITLE?First of all, where in my post did I ever say that "Quran" is the TITLE???
As I said before, please read my posts carefully, that way nothing can be taken out of context.Hmmm, well then I might need you to elaborte on the section where you said it was "agreed upon".
- An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious, as
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Salaam,
How can you disagree when you read the following verse;
(3923) The God descended the BEST NARRATION/STORY...Brother are you deliberately not reading my words correctly?? How much clearer that I have to be when I say that I reject the hadith of BUKHARI AND CO.??? You take a handful of verses from the Quran in which GOD uses the attribute of The Best Hadith and go to lunch with it. Why must you make it a point to be a maverick all of the time??
Why are you concerned with the number of times each is used?
Because the number of times each is used demonstates an emphasis that GOD places on it. Do you not see that my brother??
I hope I have succesfully clarified this issue of narration and story, and I hope you have continued patience with me as I continue to clarify an issue that is hard for many of us to accept regarding the word "quran".
Dear brother Kyle, please don't take this the wrong way, but the statements that I have emphasised in bold is exactly what I have a problem with. It doesn't bother me that you have a way of understanding things. I respect everyone's understanding. But, you have absolutely no authority to keep coming off as if you some type of scholar and you are here to give people guidance. You must keep in mind, as well as the rest of us, that your understanding just might be incorrect. That is why I do not call myself "correcting" or "teaching" people, because the way I see things may not be correct. This is an attitude that is sorely lacking among too many of us. It also shows an arrogance on the part of those who carry on this behaviour. This is exactly what drove me to tell Edip about himself in a thread he started in which he arrogantly degrades the beliefs and views of the believers here. I said it before and I'll say it again; It's one thing to have our own way of seeing things, but it's another to tell others that they are wrong just because they don't see as we do.
Is this reading(quran) the best narration(hadith)? Yes or No. Its that simple.('D') Why are you adverse to it being described as the best hadith?
Actually, the real question is why are you so bent on calling it hadith just because we have a mere handful of verses that describes it as such?? Of course I'm not denying that GOD has said that it is the Best Hadith. Is that reason enough to start calling it a hadith based on those very few passages alone, especially since I want to make it clear that there is something else called hadith which are a bunch of lies and I wish to always distinguish between the lies that are known as hadith and the true hadith which is commonly known and accpeted as The Quran??? I really don't know what kind of rush you get when you go against the grain bro.
More worthy?!?!?!?('shock') Please tell me you are joking brother. Are you telling me that the description "best hadith (ahsana alhadeethi) " is NOT WORTHY? Who gave you the authority to say so?
I remind you to please stop corrupting my statements and read everything I post closely. Since it appears that it was mis-read and/or mis-understood the first time, here it is again. Please read it carefully my brother....
If you're going to use an alternative description of the Quran other than the word "Quran", then Al-Hikma and Ad-Dhikr are more worthy to be used than hadith due to the number of usages of each by GOD Himself.
It is indeed appropriate for this thread because the question is incorrectly stated no matter if everyone knows it or not
I guess the only who truly knows it among us is the great Idolfree 1. He knows what we don't know. He's way more knowledgable than the rest of us. And if any of us disagree with his views and interpretations, then we are clearly wrong!!! I guess GOD lied to us when He said that only He is The All-Knowing and The Most Wise. I didn't know some of His subjects shared those same attributes with Him.
And I doubt that you are aware of how many people enter this site who have NO IDEA.
Since I've been posting here, I have yet to see it. And I've seen alot of them come and go.
Further, I don't need anyone to ask me to post, if I have input on a certain topic, then I will post.
Bro, where did this come from and what does it have to do with what we're talking about??
If you search this forum, you will see that in every instance where I found this incorrect statement, I have addressed it with the same response.
Of course I've read plenty of your posts bro. In all of them I feel as though I detect a spirit that I feel is not so humble, with no disrespect intended. I am not the confrontational type, which is why I steer clear of the path of certain people. But I really felt as though your initial post in this thread was inappropriate and takes away from the aims of this thread to begin with. Things like that is why alot of discussions get disrupted. The fact that you and I are now having this exchange proves it. The person who started this thread did not intend for Damon and Kyle to take it off track. He intended for us to let others know if we follow Bukhari and Co. and whether or not we would allow our ten year old children fight in a war such as in Iraq.
We do NOT say we are anti "hadith" because the reading(quran) IS itself a "hadith". There is no way around it.
We DO say we are anti-hadith because we are anti Bukhari and Co, which was the original intent of the person who started this thread and I'm sure you know that Kyle. Furthermore, I'm not going to just start refering to the Quran as hadith just because GOD says, in like ONLY ten occasions that it is the best hadith. You make sound as though the description of The Best hadith is it's official title or something, the way you are carrying on with it.
Thats unfortunate. I guess I have a tedious job in front of me. Thank you for the oppurtunity to make this correction.
Let me guess, this tedious job you are talking about has to do with you telling everybody that their wrong and that they need to take on your understanding??
Where are you getting this numerical criteria? Please show me.
It's all throughout the Quran. I gurantee you that GOD refers to this particular revelation as The Quran WAY MORE than He refers to it as the best hadith. That I guarantee you. You have The Quran. You can see that for yourself.
Further, you can call it whatever you want, my point is proven that the statement "anti hadith" is incorrect,
First of all my brother, I can hardly see where you have "Proven" that the statement of anti-hadith is incorrect. You will never be able to do that, because in order to do so, we would all have to understand the concept the same as you do which is just not possible. More importantly, I just had to point out, in bold, another one of those statements that says that you know it all and we don't because we are not as well read or as studious as you are.
That same exact attitude can be seen in this statement too....
and as a submitter, it is my duty to point thatout, wether it was a mistake, or just not known.
But you do know right? You know it all.
Please provide a list of all the people who read that post, can you do that?
No, I cannot do that. All I can do is the same thing that you're able to do which is to look at the thread and glance over to the right column where it is said how many times this thread has been read/viewed.
With continued respect, a student of the God's message to humanity. Here is is again,
(3923) The God descended the BEST NARRATION/STORY (hadith)...
So, with that said, are you anti hadith?
Yes, I am anti-hadith and you know full well WHAT hadith I am rejecting. You know full well WHAT hadith the author of this thread was talking about when he asked if we were anti-hadith or not.
I am not sure who the "we' is you are talking about, I am debating with YOU only, I have seen no one else disagreeing with the correction I HUMBLY presented.
That works both ways Kyle. No one else is stepping up to disagree with the correction I HUMBLY presented to you either.
Brother, there must be something else bothering you, I hope you will address it, because this is getting ridiculous.
Yes, there is something else, and I have addressed it. I can't keep sitting here quietly and allow people here to carry on as if they are "The" Scholar of free-minds.org. You are a student just like the rest of us. You are subject to errors and misunderstandings just like the rest of us. You have to read, study and find your way to the path just like the rest of us. I am here to assist you as a brother, but I do not have the attitude that you need me to "Correct" you because you misunderstand everything that I see differently than you. We can't do that. I sat here quietly long enough when Edip was doing this before I finally had to let loose on him. I will no longer sit here quietly when I see someone displaying this non-humble spirit. If you have a way of seeing certain things, fine. I'd like to hear it and we can discuss it. And I will do the same. But, this whole thing of "I'm right, you're wrong" must cease. It is actually counterproductive. That's what's bothering me.
The brother posed a question which included the phrase "anti- hadith". I corrected him by showing the FACT that the reading(quran) ITSELF is a hadith, the BEST hadith.
I hope I'm not offending you by saying this, but you are NOT smarter than anyone else here Kyle. And you are no ones teacher. I see why you insist on your understanding and I see what you are basing it on. That is your perogative. However, not all people see it that way. That's the bottom line. And you have no right, no authority whatsoever to say that someone else is "mistaken" or "incorrect" because they don't want to take on your understanding.
The brother has not disagreed, and no one else has, EXCEPT you. Why is that?
Kyle, listen very carefully. If the brother agreed with your understanding, he would have said so and "corrected" Zenje, Tha Phenom and myself when we posted our responses. Our responses clearly reflect that we are anti-hadith and yet the brother who started the thread did not "Correct" us on our understanding. As far as why no one else is disagreeing with you I'm sure is for the same reason that no one else is disagreeing with me....they decided to stay out of it.
If you are anti hadith, then you are anti "quran". Period. There is no arrogance in that statement, it was only a correction to the question posted.
After this, I will not go back to this same part of your argument. I'm going to say it very clearly for you...
I AM ANTI-BUKHARI AND CO., NOT ANTI-QURAN!!! I REJECT THE SO-CALLED BOOKS OF HADITH IN WHICH THEY GET THE "SUNNAH" FROM!!! BY THIS I MEAN THE SIX SUNAN, THE FOUR MADAAHIB AND WHATEVER AND WHOEVER ELSE PROMOTES THIS SO-CALLED SECOND SOURCE OF ISLAM OTHER THAN THE QURAN!!!
Well then you reject the book of the God which is the BEST hadith.
Look here man, I plainly said that I reject the hadith that is erected by Bukhari and the rest of the sunnah crew. I never said that I reject what GOD calls the best hadith. If I say that I am anti-Bukhari and Co. but that I am pro-Quran, how on earth are you going to keep accusing me of rejecting the Quran?? Just because I disagree with your new official title of it?? There is a certain amount of dishonesty that comes with someone doing that. I make mental notes of these things.
I did no such thing, you said you reject hadith, right? or did I put that in your mouth?
Oh, you methodically twisted my statement to make it sound as if I said that I reject the Quran as well as the corrupt hadith. I know that was deliberate. Like I said, it takes a certain amount of dishonesty for a person to do that.
First of all, where in my post did I ever say that "Quran" is the TITLE???
As I said before, please read my posts carefully, that way nothing can be taken out of context.Hmmm, well then I might need you to elaborte on the section where you said it was "agreed upon".
There's no need for me to elaborate since I never said that to begin with.
Don't get me wrong bro, I'm not trying to become your enemy. I only wish to remind you that you are not always correct on everything and neither am I or Wakas, or Zenje or Layth for that matter. None of us here can say that our understanding is the "Correct" understanding. I can tell that you are well read and that you take your studies seriously. Thing is, you were probably this studious as a sunni too, am I correct?? And now we have come to the point where we all realize that We Were Wrong when we had certain views and understandings as traditional muslims.
You say that it is your duty as my brother to be a reminder to me. You are absolutely correct on that and I thank you kindly for taking your duty before GOD seriously, but GOD told us to serve as reminders to each other of being mindful of Him and to enjoin right and steer away from wrong doing. But, I want to remind EVERYONE here, as I had to with Edip Yuksel, that ONLY GOD knows all. Since we are not GOD, we can and will be incorrect on alot of our understandings. In this case, I have no problem with how you view The Quran as hadith based upon the verses you bring forth. But please, PLEASE, my brother show the same respect to others here are seeking wisdom just like you because around this time next year,GW, we don't know which of us will change some of the understandings that we have now for whatever reason. )
Peace and GOD Bless,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
Brother are you deliberately not reading my words correctly?? How much clearer that I have to be when I say that I reject the hadith of BUKHARI AND CO.???
That is very clear my brother, very clear, and thats all I was trying to clarify with my response. I understand you think I am arrogant, may the God show me how to be more gentile, but I cannot be overly concerned with how I am percieved by reminding someone of something that is extremely clear. There are many people that come here to get a better understanding and we cannot speak in a way that is UNCLEAR. Your statement below is proof that it was unclear to a certain group of people.
Anyone who is a GOD Alone/Quran Alone believer will understand the question and the intent behind the question perfectly.
What about the people who are not? I could easily charge that answer of yours as being arrogant. Not being considerate of those who seek TRUTH but are not from the two groups mentioned.
You take a handful of verses from the Quran in which GOD uses the attribute of The Best Hadith and go to lunch with it. Why must you make it a point to be a maverick all of the time??
I pointed out an error, I plan to do so anytime I see one. I hope you do the same.
Because the number of times each is used demonstates an emphasis that GOD places on it. Do you not see that my brother??
Yes. I see a very clear emphasis on that DESCRIPTION. But Emphasis on a description does not make it the TITLE of the book. It is a guess to say that is a title, nothing else.
Dear brother Kyle, please don't take this the wrong way, but the statements that I have emphasised in bold is exactly what I have a problem with. It doesn't bother me that you have a way of understanding things. I respect everyone's understanding. But, you have absolutely no authority to keep coming off as if you some type of scholar and you are here to give people guidance.
Respected brother Damon, I am sorry you feel I am "preaching". But I do not cater to "feelings". I will take your statement as a reminder to try to be more gentile in my choice of words, but the fact of the matter is that I am right on this. It is as simple as 1+1=2. The God calls the reading the best hadith. That means out of all the hadiths, this message is the BEST of them. So it is 100% incorrect to say that you are anti -hadith. If you choose to do so, that is fine, but its wrong.
You must keep in mind, as well as the rest of us, that your understanding just might be incorrect.
No, regarding this topic, there is no doubt.
That is why I do not call myself "correcting" or "teaching" people, because the way I see things may not be correct. This is an attitude that is sorely lacking among too many of us. It also shows an arrogance on the part of those who carry on this behaviour. This is exactly what drove me to tell Edip about himself in a thread he started in which he arrogantly degrades the beliefs and views of the believers here. I said it before and I'll say it again; It's one thing to have our own way of seeing things, but it's another to tell others that they are wrong just because they don't see as we do.
Brother, please be humble and admit that the reminder I offered is true, wether you felt I stated it arrogantly or not. I have been wrong MANY times. But when the better understanding finally reached me, I humbly admitted it. I just recently did that in another post this morning.
Actually, the real question is why are you so bent on calling it hadith just because we have a mere handful of verses that describes it as such??
How am I "bent" on calling it "hadith" when all I did was show a correction? I offered my proof, then I answered the initail question about children and war. It was YOU who responded to my response, remember?
Of course I'm not denying that GOD has said that it is the Best Hadith. Is that reason enough to start calling it a hadith based on those very few passages alone, especially since I want to make it clear that there is something else called hadith which are a bunch of lies and I wish to always distinguish between the lies that are known as hadith and the true hadith which is commonly known and accpeted as The Quran??? I really don't know what kind of rush you get when you go against the grain bro.
The grain? Is that the same as the majority? To answer your question above, yes, if the God describes it as "best hadith" I certainly have the right to describe it that manner as well. My goal is the same as the bold statements in your comment above. We can not be clear or distinguish between truth and falsehood when we still are unclear about the definitions. Until we ADMIT that the reading is a story, the BEST of them, we cannot be clear. That is not being arrogant.
I guess the only who truly knows it among us is the great Idolfree 1. He knows what we don't know. He's way more knowledgable than the rest of us. And if any of us disagree with his views and interpretations, then we are clearly wrong!!! I guess GOD lied to us when He said that only He is The All-Knowing and The Most Wise. I didn't know some of His subjects shared those same attributes with Him.
It is sad that you take a simple reminder to this degree and you are 100% wrong.
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And I doubt that you are aware of how many people enter this site who have NO IDEA.Since I've been posting here, I have yet to see it. And I've seen alot of them come and go.
Are you trying to tell me that there are no people who do not know that the "quran" is described as the BEST HADITH? That won't be hard to prove, stay tuned.
Of course I've read plenty of your posts bro. In all of them I feel as though I detect a spirit that I feel is not so humble, with no disrespect intended. I am not the confrontational type, which is why I steer clear of the path of certain people. But I really felt as though your initial post in this thread was inappropriate and takes away from the aims of this thread to begin with.
No disrespect taken respected brother. But if you take a look at my initail post, I first showed the error as a reminder, then I continued with the aim of the discussion by telling what my thoughts were regarding war.
Things like that is why alot of discussions get disrupted. The fact that you and I are now having this exchange proves it. The person who started this thread did not intend for Damon and Kyle to take it off track. He intended for us to let others know if we follow Bukhari and Co. and whether or not we would allow our ten year old children fight in a war such as in Iraq.
And I answered the question as did you. This off track discussion was started by you brother.
We DO say we are anti-hadith because we are anti Bukhari and Co
Wrong. Are you going to let buckari and co dictate what "hadith" means or the God? The God calls this great message the best hadith. I can NEVER be anti hadith.
, which was the original intent of the person who started this thread and I'm sure you know that Kyle.
Yes, you know I know that. But we cannot settle with "intended" message, we have to be clear, that is the duty of the one who spreads the message.
Furthermore, I'm not going to just start refering to the Quran as hadith just because GOD says, in like ONLY ten occasions that it is the best hadith.
My brother, that is your choice.
You make sound as though the description of The Best hadith is it's official title or something, the way you are carrying on with it.
There is no title, only descriptions.
Let me guess, this tedious job you are talking about has to do with you telling everybody that their wrong and that they need to take on your understanding??
Guessing is no substitute for the truth.
Yes, I am anti-hadith and you know full well WHAT hadith I am rejecting. You know full well WHAT hadith the author of this thread was talking about when he asked if we were anti-hadith or not.
I am not anti hadith, I follow the Best hadith. I hope that after this discussion is over, you will have the clarity once again to see the clear truth.
I will not address the rest of your post.
May the God's blessings be upon you and grant you peace.
To brother MZ357, I apologize for the disruption, But I had no choice but to continue my response until my point was drilled home. I thisnk it has been.
I ask if the moderators might allow Damon to respond one last time , then erase our discussion so that the thread can continue in the direction it was intended. I hope that brother Mz has taken my reminder in the context that it was given.
Lastly, I hope that in the future, people will stand up for the truth and not sit by being silent in these discussions.
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Peace and GOD's Blessings be with you Brother Kyle,
In the few statements below, I think we now get to the heart of the disagreement...
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Furthermore, I'm not going to just start refering to the Quran as hadith just because GOD says, in like ONLY ten occasions that it is the best hadith.My brother, that is your choice.
Agreed. And I respect yours as well as everyone elses choice.
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Yes, I am anti-hadith and you know full well WHAT hadith I am rejecting. You know full well WHAT hadith the author of this thread was talking about when he asked if we were anti-hadith or not.I am not anti hadith, I follow the Best hadith. I hope that after this discussion is over, you will have the clarity once again to see the clear truth.
Brother, I understood what angle you were coming from in the first post you made in this thread and I "NEVER" said that what you are advocating is wrong. What I "DID" say is that we all know that GOD has said that the Quran is the best hadith. But, we also all know that there are like a thousand books out there which go by the name of hadith. We all know the difference between the two. I say that I am "anti-hadith" because between these two written sources, one is known as a certain name (hadith), and the other is known by a description/attribute used "MOST" by GOD (The Quran). The one that I reject are the set of books which go by the very name "Hadith". This is very clear and it is not difficult at all to understand.
No one here is denying the description of the best hadith. But the decisions have been made to call each written source what they are called now as a means of "Distinguishing" between the two. Now, I would like to say how I would've answered the initial question if I decided to take on your mindset.
Let's say that I have decided to make it a point to refer to the Quran as the best hadith. When answering this post, initially, it would have been more appropriate and much more humble if I would just say "I do not claim to be anti-hadith, because GOD says the Quran is the best hadith. So based on my understanding of this statement and how I see it, I would not tell others that I am anti-hadith. I feel that since GOD says that the Quran is the best hadith and since I follow the Quran, I do not feel it would be right if I were to say that I am anti-hadith."
So plain and so simple and yet presented in a fashion that let's everyone know that I do not see myself as always knowing things that you all don't know because I'm just that scholarly.
In actuality, I am just as through with this as you are and I allow you to have the last word on this matter. However, I am asking the moderators NOT to delete this discussion, because it can serve as great tool for others who may be wrestling, have wrestled, or will wrestle about this issue. By me asking that this discussion remains, I realize that others will see it and may take on brother Kyles way of thinking on this matter which is what I was disputing. But, it's better that it remains so others can read it for themselves and come to their own conclusions on this matter.
"They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence."
Salaam Fam,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
I stated
My brother, that is your choice.Damon
Agreed. And I respect yours as well as everyone elses choice.My stating that the question was wrongly asked, although I know what the author meant, does not in any way limit his CHOICE. He can continue to choose to ask the question in that manner. I chose to give a reminder of the correct way, according to the reading, of how to state the question. What has happenned is you have allowed "buckari and co" to dictate to you the meaning of "hadith". The God has given us the proper understanding of the word.
Brother, I understood what angle you were coming from in the first post you made in this thread and I "NEVER" said that what you are advocating is wrong.
If it is not wrong, why are you disputing my reminder? Why did you respond to me with the following?
Damon
No, there is no error in this question. It is a good question and it was asked the only way it can and should be asked.What I "DID" say is that we all know that GOD has said that the Quran is the best hadith.
And that is the problem. All of us do not know that. Perhaps MZ, Zenje, and Anwar know that, but they are not the only ones who have looked, are looking, and will be looking at these words. We are told not to cover up truth with falsehood nor conceal the truth once we know it.
Yes, I could have said "I" this, and "I" that, but instead I choose to talk in terms of "we" because I see us as a community, not a bunch of individuals that are incapable of comming to common understandings on clear statements.
No one here is denying the description of the best hadith.
That is EXACTLY what you are doing when you say you are anti "hadith". Why can't you see that?
But the decisions have been made to call each written source what they are called now as a means of "Distinguishing" between the two.
Whose made that decision? Please name the person(s).
(6844) So leave Me and who lies/denies/falsifies with this the story (alhadeethi) , We will lead them gradually from where/when they do not know.
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Peace,
Whatever Kyle,
My point has been clearly laid out for all to see. That's enough for me.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
Yes, both positions are clearly laid out now.
Lets continue in peace.