Quran Study Group

Wakas

peace Kyle and Sabo,

My concordance says

dayn - 2282, 411, 412 (this derivative of Dal-Ya-Nun is separated from din)

perhaps this is partly why brother Ayman feels "obligation" describes din better?

Wakas

sabo

Salam idolfree1,

Well i wasn't debating if everything is a system or not

All what i wanted to say, that many things can appeal to individuals and that shouldn't be our measure when analysing the text of the Quran. I hope u understood what I meant by that.

Well the site of burhan is a great help but its not 100% a complete reference. I'd say burhan did a very great job and thanks God that his site exists to help many people but it contains many errors and many roots which are not completely gathered.

So if you can show me something from Quran that gives me a hint that deen is a system i'd appreciate that so much, but just stating that it appeals to you like that, might help you, but not me nor the others.

Best regards,
sabo

sabo

Salam Wakas,

dayn - 2282, 411, 412 (this derivative of Dal-Ya-Nun is separated from din)

Any reason why is it like that?

yep obligation is similar to debt. and if the Quran didn't define deen in any place, so exactly these positions 2282, 411 and 412 are explaining what it means. If you have other reasons why to pronounce d-y-n one time deen and one time dayn, and separate them in the meaning then please state them, thanks

best regards,
sabo

Someone

Peace everyone,

I used to understand "din" as system until just before reading the last part of the discussion going on.

But from what I have read, I would change my understanding.

Debt or obligation seems to fit better in context.

Humans generaly feel like owing something to some higher entity, and thus they want to pay back their debt. Remember that we come to this world concious about the god and submiting unwillingly (or willingly??) to his laws.

The least that we can count as a debt, is for the care we had received from our parents or whomever used to nurish us when we were babies, to bring us to this position to be able to discuss such things. And be sure that those people (parents, family...) are put in our way (or we are put in the way of eachothers) by the will of the god, nothing is coincidence.

When we want to pay back our debt, here we find the different so-called spokesman of this or that god, trying to take profit of the need to pay back our debt. Some ask for sacrifices, others for money, other for objetcs... wanting us to serve this or that god.

We have to live our lives and leave this world in complete submission to the god the creator, like the way we entered it. This is our debt.

The praise is to the god the lord of the kwoledgeables.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

dayn - 2282, 411, 412 (this derivative of Dal-Ya-Nun is separated from din)

perhaps this is partly why brother Ayman feels "obligation" describes din better?

So if the above is a derivative, then we are looking for a word that is similar to debt, but not debt. Is that right?

Obligation does sound better now. I will need to study more.

Are there any other verses that stand out to any of you regarding this word?

Wakas

peace all,

If you have other reasons why to pronounce d-y-n one time deen and one time dayn, and separate them in the meaning then please state them, thanks

I just wrote what the concordance said. I haven't checked the Arabic.

Both dayn and din are noun&masculine, but they are separated in the concordance (perhaps because it groups identical terms together, thus suggesting, din and dayn are not exactly identical). My Arabic grammar is not good, so I cant say what the specific difference is (if any).

There are many occurrences of Dal-Ya-Nun. I will try and go through them soon, GW, to identify any clarifying verses.

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Wakas,

Thank you for the help, I look foward to those clarifications.

marie

Peace y?all,

We have to consider the context to know if we should read 'D Y N' as 'Dayn' or 'Deen' because the quran explains itself.

In 2282, there is no doubt D Y N must be read ?Dayn? because of the verbe ?tadayana?

tadayantum (if you borrow) bidaynin (debt) (2 282).

Idem for 4 11, 4 12
min baAAdi wasiyyatin yooseebiha (All after a will is carried through ) aw daynin (debt)

In 929, the context is not the same, D Y N must be read ?Deen?, "yadeenoon" is from the verb "daana', yadeenu".
"daana deenan to adhere to a deen, to practise

"daana li, bi" could mean to owe something to somebody (for example the life), to be obliged to do something for somebody (for example thanks). In this context, this is a "dayn" towards somebody.

wala yadeenoona (and they do not uphold) deena alhaqqimina (the system of truth) (9 29)

In 373, D Y N must be read ?Deen?
liman tabiAAa (those who follow) deenakum (your deen)

alyawmaakmaltu lakum deenakum (Today I have perfected your deen) waatmamtu AAalaykum niAAmatee (completed My blessings upon you) waradeetulakumu al-islama deenan (and I have accepted al-islama as deen for you) (53)

'duyoon' is the plural form of 'dayn'

'Adyaan' is the plural form of 'deen'

?alAAulamao? is the plural form of ?AAaalim? which means knowledgeable
?AAaleem? means knowledgeable too

AAulamao (learned men / scholars) (26197)

min AAibadihia (among God?s servants) alAAulamao (knowledgeable) (3528

alAAaleemu (the Knowledgeable) (26220)

AAaleemin (the Knowledgeable) (276)

?AAaalam? is the singular form of ?AAaalameen? which means the worlds

wahudan lilAAalameena (a guidance for the worlds) (396)

fa-innee oAAaththibuhu AAathaban (I will punish him a punishment) la oAAaththibuhu ahadanmina alAAalameena (like no one else from the worlds will be punished!?)(5 115)

Peace
Marie

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

So you also agree with deen = system in some verses?

Isnt there a verse regading the King that Joseph worked for regarding his "deen"? Can someone help me with that verse number?

I am having trouble accepting "obligation".

marie

Peace be upon you Kyle,

Peace be upon you Marie,

So you also agree with deen = system in some verses?

Yes

Isnt there a verse regading the King that Joseph worked for regarding his "deen"? Can someone help me with that verse number?

I am having trouble accepting "obligation".

So he began with their bags before his brother?s bag. Then he brought it out of his brother?s bag. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the King?s system, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.

Fabadaa bi-awAAiyatihim qabla wiAAa-iakheehi thumma istakhrajaha min wiAAa-i akheehi kathalikakidna liyoosufa ma kana liya/khuthaakhahu fee deeni almaliki illa an yashaa AllahunarfaAAu darajatin man nashao wafawqa kulli theeAAilmin AAaleemun

For the moment , I prefer "system" than "obligation" as a translation for the word 'deen"

Allah knows best

Marie

sabo

Salam Marie,

We have to consider the context to know if we should read 'D Y N' as 'Dayn' or 'Deen' because the quran explains itself.

The difference between "dayn" and "deen" can be some difference made up by humans just to give the word "deen" a different meaning and separate it from the understanding. In your explanation you didn't research that, but you depend on that its a fact, that the 2 words are pronounced differently and should have different meaning, though written they are written the same.

In 2282, there is no doubt D Y N must be read ?Dayn? because of the verbe ?tadayana?

tadayantum (if you borrow) bidaynin (debt) (2 282).

Idem for 4 11, 4 12
min baAAdi wasiyyatin yooseebiha (All after a will is carried through ) aw daynin (debt)

In 929, the context is not the same, D Y N must be read ?Deen?, "yadeenoon" is from the verb "daana', yadeenu".
"daana deenan to adhere to a deen, to practise

"daana li, bi" could mean to owe something to somebody (for example the life), to be obliged to do something for somebody (for example thanks). In this context, this is a "dayn" towards somebody.

wala yadeenoona (and they do not uphold) deena alhaqqimina (the system of truth) (9 29)

In 373, D Y N must be read ?Deen?
liman tabiAAa (those who follow) deenakum (your deen)

alyawmaakmaltu lakum deenakum (Today I have perfected your deen) waatmamtu AAalaykum niAAmatee (completed My blessings upon you) waradeetulakumu al-islama deenan (and I have accepted al-islama as deen for you) (53)

you can see clearly that the basic form of this root is daana (past tense) and present tense (yadeen).

You are missing a simple grammatical analysis and that's why you are separating the meaning of the 2 words, who has the SAME root.

Please be patient with me and see the "arabic mizan" for roots.

consider the root maala, which is a parallel of daana. (why parallel? because both roots are 3-lettered roots which have a vowel alef in the middle , in the past tense the alef is used, in the present tense the alef is switched to yaa)

maala (past tense) <==> daana (past tense)
yameel (present tense) <==> yadeen (present tense)
tamayala (past tense extended form of the root) <==> tadayana (past tense extended form of the root)
yatamayala (present tense extended form of the root) <==> yatadayana (present tense extended form of the root)

(marked in green the roots letters and in red the switch in the root from alef to yaa)

you use 929 and 2282 to proof that the verbs are having a different meaning.

In 929 yadeenoona is mentioned (can you tell me what is the past tense of this verb?)
In 2282 tadayantom is mentioned

they are analog to yameeloona <==> tamayaltom and yet you would have no problem saying both are meaning very similar actions.

as you see yadeen and tadayana are the same word but having slightly different meaning due to the extension of the root.

'duyoon' is the plural form of 'dayn'

'Adyaan' is the plural form of 'deen'

any proof that the both plural words are different in meaning? Did you hear about words which have more than 1 plural form?

Best regards,
sabo

marie

Salam Sabo,

you can see clearly that the basic form of this root is daana (past tense) and present tense (yadeen).

You are correct

This is what I have said

In 929, the context is not the same, D Y N must be read ?Deen?, "yadeenoon" is from the verb "daana', yadeenu".
"daana deenan to adhere to a deen, to practise

you use 929 and 2282 to proof that the verbs are having a different meaning.

In 929 yadeenoona is mentioned (can you tell me what is the past tense of this verb?)
In 2282 tadayantom is mentioned

You are right the verb "tadaayantum" is not the proof that "D Y N" in 2282 shoul be read as "Dayn" but especially the context which allows us to understand that D Y N is "dayn/debt" and not "deen".

The past tense of "yadeenoona" is "daanoo"

As I already said, we could say 1) "daana daynan" or 2) daana deenan" and this is the context which allows us to understand "
"to owe a debt to somebody" 2) "to adhere to a deen"

'duyoon' is the plural form of 'dayn'

'Adyaan', is the plural form of 'deen'

any proof that the both plural words are different in meaning? Did you hear about words which have more than 1 plural form?

Do you mean 'Adyaan' and 'duyoon' are two plural form for the word "D Y N" and which means the same thing?
I read in my dictionnary that "adyun" and "duyoon" are two plural form for the word "dayn"

I think "adyaan" and "duyoon" are different words which have the same singular form "D Y N" but with a different vowels "tashkeel " which is respectively "deen" and "dayn" .

The word deen could be used in other context ex daanahu deenan i. e. He humiliated him and reduce him as a slave.

to obey, servility, submission, are several meanings of the verb "daana"

In 2193, we read "alddeenu lillahi" could also mean obedience 'is' to Allah

We can say
"dintu bideeni Allah" which could mean I obeyed Him

The idea of obedience is consolidated by what is said in 319

"Inna alddeena AAinda Allahial-islamu"(319)

Ahmad Shabir
Indeed the System of Life approved by Allah is Al-Islam (Submission to His Will). (319)

FM
The system with God is to surrender (319)

Other use of the verb "daana"

"dintu arrajula" which means I gave a man a loan and this man becomes ?madeenun? and ?madyoon? because of his ?dayn/debt?

?Dintu and adeenu? = I took a loan

This is the context which makes the difference between "deen" and "dayn".

The deen of Allah = The system of Allah

The dayn of Allah = The debt of Allah
D Y N Alhaq = the deen of the truth or the debt of the truth
that doesn't make sense.

Try to apply this to 2132, 193, 217, 256, I found that doesn't make sence when "deen" is substituted by "dayn/debt"

In arabic language, many words are written in the same way but are read differently according to the context and the construction of the sentence.

Fo example the word "M N' which could be read as "mina", "min", "man" or "man(n)a"...

I hope that helps

Marie

Wakas

peace All,

Brother Kyle, I think you were referring to this verse - 1276

Also, I found another verse which clarifies DYN further, but I'm not at home at the moment, but I will post it when I return, GW.

It essentially seems to mean "that which is due", from my brief early study. It does seem 'obligation' fits better. Aidid Safar goes for 'order'.

Wakas

sabo

Salam Marie,

thanks for reply.

I am aware what is written in dictionaries, but the whole point of my debate is that I don't believe what is written in these dictionaries regarding to the root d-y-n

I am also aware that there are many words which are written the same and pronounced differently but my debate here is about the word d-y-n where I see that both dayn-deen are made to appear different, however they are not.

A debt is a specialized meaning of the general meaning of the root, which means "a financial obligation" here the context let's us add the word "financial" obligation, that's it. But it is still an obligation, and not a system, a system is rather "sunna" and not "deen"

Try to apply this to 2132, 193, 217, 256, I found that doesn't make sence when "deen" is substituted by "dayn/debt"

2132 says that God has chosen for us an obligation, that is that we care to don't die except submitting to him.

2193 says that the obligation should be to God alone and we have no obligation towards other gods/mullahs/prophets/etc...

2217 any one who turns from his obligation to God alone would have his deeds nullified

2256 you should force no body to follow this obligation, everybody is free to choose it.

I see it makes a perfect sense, given the definition of obligation below. If you see it as a system, then as you wish

the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)
something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action
a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond)
a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money; also an amount owed under such an obligation <unable to meet its obligations, the company went into bankruptcy>
a condition or feeling of being obligated
a debt of gratitude
something one is bound to do DUTY, RESPONSIBILITY

best regards
sabo

marie

Salam Sabo,

Salam Marie,

thanks for reply.

I am aware what is written in dictionaries, but the whole point of my debate is that I don't believe what is written in these dictionaries regarding to the root d-y-n

I agree, but in the same time you use the dictionary to say this

A debt is a specialized meaning of the general meaning of the root

Both "dayn" and "deen" exist.

Let us the quran explains itself. The goal is not to fit one of the dictionary meaning of the word " dayn" to the quran but to seek the best explanation according the context of the verse.

Debt "dayn" could be "a financial obligation", that's OK.

Try to apply this to 2132, 193, 217, 256, I found that doesn't make sence when "deen" is substituted by "dayn/debt"

2132 says that God has chosen for us an obligation, that is that we care to don't die except submitting to him.

2193 says that the obligation should be to God alone and we have no obligation towards other gods/mullahs/prophets/etc...

2217 any one who turns from his obligation to God alone would have his deeds nullified

2256 you should force no body to follow this obligation, everybody is free to choose it.

I see it makes a perfect sense, given the definition of obligation below. If you see it as a system, then as you wish )

In my last post, I thought that obedience could be one of the meaning for the word "deen"

In 2193, we read "alddeenu lillahi" could also mean obedience 'is' to Allah

We can say
"dintu bideeni Allah" which could mean I obeyed Him

The idea of obedience is consolidated by what is said in 319

"Inna alddeena AAinda Allahial-islamu"(319)

I prefer to translate "alddeenu lillahi" as "the obedience should be to the god than "the obligation should be to God"

In arabic, we use the word "waajib" / "alwaajibat" to say obligation(s)

I think the best definition of the word deen is in 319 the deen of Allah = al-islam (Submission to His Will)

There is one deen (singular form) and not several deen and we found the definition of al-islam through the quran.
In the quran "deen" doesn't exist in plural form like the word "salat" and "salawat"

Marie

sabo

Salam Marie,

In arabic, we use the word "waajib" / "alwaajibat" to say obligation(s)

Marie, this is a modern arabic understanding of the word waajib. You mix that with the classical arabic which has nothing to do with obligation (check verse 2236 and you will see that your explanation of the word waajib is faaaaaar from being correct)

There is one deen (singular form) and not several deen and we found the definition of al-islam through the quran.
In the quran "deen" doesn't exist in plural form like the word "salat" and "salawat"

This proofs nothing, because also the plural of "dayn" (as u prefer to pronounce it) is not mentioned in the Quran.

Best regards,
sabo

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Excellent debating going on here, trying to keep up.

Wakas, I look foward to the verse that you will be bringing, hopefully it will swing my understanding one way or the other.

Just in thought, I am still having trouble with the thought of "owing" something to One that needs nothing. "Debt" and "obligation" seem to contradict this idea. I hope I am not causing anyone to repeat what they may have said a million times, but how do you reconcile that?

A system seems to fit best. I cannot see "debt" or "obligation" fitting in the below verse.

So he began with their bags before his brother?s bag. Then he brought it out of his brother?s bag. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the King?s system, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.

sabo

Salam idolfree1,

I have a question for you. Do you view the civil law of a country as a system or as an obligation or both?

Best regards,
sabo

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sabo,

I have a question for you. Do you view the civil law of a country as a system or as an obligation or both?

I view it as a system, not an obligation.

For example, there are laws here in the U.S. that I disagree with, so I am not Obligated to follow them, but I do recognize a wicked system when I see one.

I looked up the word Obligation in the dictionary, this is what I found.

Main Entry ob?li?ga?tion
Pronunciation "?-bl&-'gA-sh&n
Function noun
1 the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)
2 a something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action b a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond) c a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money; also an amount owed under such an obligation <unable to meet its obligations, the company went into bankruptcy>
3 a a condition or feeling of being obligated b a debt of gratitude
4 something one is bound to do DUTY, RESPONSIBILITY

This makes my choice even harder as I can see where I agree and disagree based on the definition.

In number 1, it is compared to a promise, I would say that the covenant is that promise.

In number 4, it is called a condition or feeling that one is BOUND to, the God has not BOUND us, but said there is no compulsion.

Does anyone see anything I might be missing?

Wakas

peace All,

Just in thought, I am still having trouble with the thought of "owing" something to One that needs nothing. "Debt" and "obligation" seem to contradict this idea. I hope I am not causing anyone to repeat what they may have said a million times, but how do you reconcile that?

You are correct in the sense that The One needs nothing, but if we recall the amana/trust, then things should be clearer. We accepted the amana/trust, thus in doing so are under obligation to fulfill/recognise it.

I think 'obligation' fits ok in 1276.

The other verse I was referring to was 2425 (also see the term 'yuwaffi' in 357, 1115, 11111, 3530, 4619).

Wakas