Funny description of us - the hadith rejectors! :)
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rahenijaat1
they didn't have bukhari's collection of hadiths. now, they did have the koran. so, they became believers by following the koran.I told you to be careful before answering, but as usual you did not took care as many do not. This means, to get involved in a debate with a person who has no solid reasons to back up what he says is meaningless.
The Quran was revealed in 22 and half years approximately. The early Muslims were not due to Quran but due to the Messenger and his Moral. Allah choose a person who was unique/elevated/having best morals to spread his Message. Off course with few Ayats of Quran which could not even be understood without the explanation of the Messenger at initial stage no one was going to change in which he/they believed for centuries.
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justamuslim
the difference between you and me, rajaah is that you need/seek these stories of the prophet as your source of guidance, in addition or separate from the Quran. whereas i choose instead to take the Quran as my source of guidance.
I don't know in which world do you live in? just answer the following question and let me see where you stand
Why do you take Quran as your source of Guidance? (now don't answer it by funny answers such as "Because Quran says it so"justamuslim
and the further difference between you and me is that you allege God told us to believe in these stories told by people. whereas i clearly and absolutely make no such allegations about God.
Did I? where? please mention the specific post! other wise an apology is due from you for telling a lie.
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Hope4 and RA786
Selam
Quranists is a made up word to describe a sect just as sunni or Shia etc. I find these words to be associated with sects (6159) and would rather be known as a Muslim (227.
PeaceSalaam
Praise be to Allah who teaches us every thing.Selam Jack
Actually it does matter what we call ourselves. If we accept their labels we are no better than them in splitting ourselves into sects. When people ask me who I am, I say I am a Muslim, nothing more and nothing less.
PeaceSubhaan Allah
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Selam Jack
Actually it does matter what we call ourselves. If we accept their labels we are no better than them in splitting ourselves into sects. When people ask me who I am, I say I am a Muslim, nothing more and nothing less.
Peace
Salam Hope,
You say it matters, but you don't really explain why. Unity for unity's sake is pretentious, and that IS division.
It's not about accepting their labels... I'm just wondering, calling yourself muslim as opposed to a quranist or a monotheist or whatever else, what does it change really? What's the point?It's just a rather shallow view. Why does it matter what you call yourself?
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rahenijaat1
they didn't have bukhari's collection of hadiths. now, they did have the koran. so, they became believers by following the koran.I told you to be careful before answering, but as usual you did not took care as many do not. This means, to get involved in a debate with a person who has no solid reasons to back up what he says is meaningless.
Salam and Peace on you, nice brother!
The above quote in red is not mine.
I must keep quite.The Quran was revealed in 22 and half years approximately. The early Muslims were not due to Quran but due to the Messenger and his Moral. Allah choose a person who was unique/elevated/having best morals to spread his Message. Off course with few Ayats of Quran which could not even be understood without the explanation of the Messenger at initial stage no one was going to change in which he/they believed for centuries.
Good brother, Raaajah, I still didn't answer to your question.
But finally, you yourself, came up with the above quoted answer to your own question.------So now, tell, is your above quoted answer, a good reason to have Iman in Sahih Al-Bukhari as the second source of Islam, because the early Muslims heard a few Verses and believed, and (according to you) it was not due to Quran but due to the Messenger and his Moral???---So, this is your proof for having Iman in Imam Bukhari's book???==========================================================================
Well, according to you, those early Muslims saw the Messenger and and his Moral, and believed in Al-Quran.
But, what about those people after the death of the Messenger,-----those people didn't see the Messenger and his Moral,-----so how did they believe in Al-Quran?
If seeing the Messenger and his Moral, is the reason that people did believe in Al-Quran, then why do people of our time believe in Al-Quran?My nice brother, Raaajah,-----the Exalted Messenger brought such an Impressive Message of Allah, that It always appealed to people's intellect and reasoning. People could not deny The Truthfulness of Its Message.
That is the reason the Mushrikeen always tried to stop people from listening to the recitation of Al-Quran by the Messenger, saying that there is a magic in this Kalaam, and It will enchant you.There are many non-muslims in the world (after the death of the Messenger), they read The Quran, and they, without seeing the Messenger and his Moral, are convinced that This Exalted Book is The Truth, and they believe.
------"O mankind, there has indeed come to you the messenger (Muhammad) with The Truth from your Lord. So believe, (that is) better for you." (Al-Nisaa-170)
-----"And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before there comes upon you the punishment suddenly, while you do not perceive." (Al-Zamur-55)
-----"And this (Quran) is a Book which We have revealed as a Blessing, so follow It and fear (Allah), that you may receive Mercy." (Al-Anaam-155)
Allah didn't say follow the Messenger. Allah commanded us to follow His Quran, the way the Messenger himself followed Al-Quran.
If we had to follow the Messenger, then we would have needed the Messenger before us.
We would have needed to see him how he is doing everything in Islam. We would have needed to see him and talk to him.The Messenger---And---The Message.
The Messenger brought The Message, gave it to his ummah, and passed away, by Allah's Will.Now, the Messenger is not before us by Allah's Will,-----but-----The Message he brought, is before us by Allah's Will.
We can not see the Messenger by Allah's Will, but we can see The Message-----by Allah's Will.We can only follow what we can see.
So, follow The Message that we can see.
This is, for sure, Allah's Will.So,-------Say "Yes" to Allah's Will, and bow before Allah's Will.
Do we have Iman in our Allah?
Do we understand what is Allah's Will???Peace on you.
Please, don't be angry. I am just a learner.
A lot of Peace on you and your loved-ones.
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Salam Hope,
You say it matters, but you don't really explain why. Unity for unity's sake is pretentious, and that IS division.
It's not about accepting their labels... I'm just wondering, calling yourself muslim as opposed to a quranist or a monotheist or whatever else, what does it change really? What's the point?It's just a rather shallow view. Why does it matter what you call yourself?
Selam Jack
I understand what you are saying, however, this does not change the fact that these labels bother me. As stated in the Quran we as believers are named Muslim so why would we want to accept another label?
You are right about it not mattering what we call ourselves as our actions are what makes us who we are and not labels, this is what I think your point is based on. I remember having a chat with someone a long time ago we has since past away, when I was young, I asked him what are you, he replied a human. I asked him again but this time more specific saying what are you a Sunni, Shia or Christian? He replied again a human. I was puzzled and said what do you mean? His reply was, ?If I told you I was a Sunni, will that make me a better person? If I said I was a Christian will you trust me? And if I said I was a Shia will that mean I am on the right path?? Back then I did not really know what he was on about but I feel he was trying to say our labels do not make us who we are but our actions define us.
Peace
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peace all
Regarding this whole labelling thing, it seems to serve a purpose. I am ''Australian'', "Muslim", "Quran only", "female"...I have a certain skin colour, certain eye colour etc etc. These labels are helpful sometimes in that they can help to describe a person. The problem for me only comes in when people want to use the labels to exclude or to denigrate - if people have prejudices. BUT avoiding ''labelling'' does not get rid of predjudice.
Labelling in itself is actually really helpful. A good example for me is if I was looking for a partner/husband (because that is an area where you would probably want to be quite specific); I would want to know certain things - I wouldn't just go "oh, anyone will do". They would need to speak English and they would need to have certain Islamic beliefs that I felt could fit with my own therefore I could use those labels to find a person who was suitable. Where is the problem in that? However if I have the thought that if a person doesn't speak English that they are intrinsically lacking - big problem.
Also labels can be adjusted on an as needed basis. They are not cast in stone, never to change. If it suits me I can just say to someone "I am Muslim" while on another occasion I might give a more precise description "Quran only". That's not to say I am not Muslim, only that I am a Muslim who looks to Al Quran over hadith...it really makes sense to me. But each to their own.
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Rana
They would need to speak English and they would need to have certain Islamic beliefs that I felt could fit with my own therefore I could use those labels to find a person who was suitable. Where is the problem in that?
Wow! Some one with certain Islamic beliefs that fits yours!
Regarding this whole labelling thing, it seems to serve a purpose.
The label given by Allah serves the purpose well!! and we need not any other label.
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Our Sustain-er Lord! keep/declare us as two Muslims, for ever surrendering for You,and from our progeny a Muslim community, subservient for You;..........
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rahenijaat1
Salam and Peace on you, nice brother!
The above quote in red is not mine.
I must keep quite.I misquoted the name, sorry for that.
Good brother, Raaajah, I still didn't answer to your question.
But finally, you yourself, came up with the above quoted answer to your own question.------So now, tell, is your above quoted answer, a good reason to have Iman in Sahih Al-Bukhari as the second source of Islam, because the early Muslims heard a few Verses and believed, and (according to you) it was not due to Quran but due to the Messenger and his Moral???---So, this is your proof for having Iman in Imam Bukhari's book???Don't put words in my mouth! I never said any thing about bringing Imaan on any one.
But, what about those people after the death of the Messenger,-----those people didn't see the Messenger and his Moral,-----so how did they believe in Al-Quran?
That was not the question, do you read before you respond? read the question again it was about the people who became Muslims at early stages, when Quran was in pieces may be a few verses or a Surah.
Now if you can answer that without entering in to any fancy word game, it would be much better.
Peace on you.
Please, don't be angry. I am just a learner.
A lot of Peace on you and your loved-ones.Salaam on you too, every one is a learner, and don't assume too much, just think and try to answer what is being asked if you like to, because once you answer this, it will open doors to answering the following
If seeing the Messenger and his Moral, is the reason that people did believe in Al-Quran, then why do people of our time believe in Al-Quran?
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The early Muslims/believers (at time of Muhammad peace is upon him); how did they became Muslims/believers? answer it but carefully.
Salam and Peace on you, good brother!
The above is the question that you put.
===================================================================================
And below is the answer, you gave.
The Quran was revealed in 22 and half years approximately. The early Muslims were not due to Quran but due to the Messenger and his Moral. Allah choose a person who was unique/elevated/having best morals to spread his Message. Off course with few Ayats of Quran which could not even be understood without the explanation of the Messenger at initial stage no one was going to change in which he/they believed for centuries.
The early people believed because they saw the Messenger and his Moral.-------Okay!
But rest of the people, until Al-Qiyamah are deprived of "seeing the Messenger and his Moral".
So, how would they believe, the way early people believed?
How would the gap (the Messenger is not here) will be filled?Come up with a clean answer, whatever it is.
A lot of Peace on you!
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rahenijaat1
Come on brother, What is this NS.
This is-----I am going to my Allah!
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The early people believed because they saw the Messenger and his Moral.-------Okay!
But rest of the people, until Al-Qiyamah are deprived of "seeing the Messenger and his Moral".
So, how would they believe, the way early people believed?
How would the gap (the Messenger is not here) will be filled?Come up with a clean answer, whatever it is.
The fact is other way round. Many saw him only partially in their life time. We know him fully. His presence is more evident to me than the presence of you and Raaaja on this forum.
What do you think "presence" means? Presence enables you to have some idea and some knowledge about that which apparently exists around you but you cannot claim to know them. What is that by which you can come to know about someone or how someone can make himself fully known to you? The moment you ponder over it, may be you start feeling that he is more present in your vicinity than those whom you see with your eyes.
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This is-----I am going to my Allah!
but before that, ponder on what Mazhar sahib has said..because Allah LOVES Muhammad Peace is upon him a lot and says in his book
You the Messenger, pronounce, "If you people love Allah, then consciously incline yourselves to follow me, in letter and spirit, without in between there being third party intervention, Allah will in response love/appreciate and acknowledge act of you people and for you He will overlook/forgive your wrong-doings"
You, the Messenger pronounce, "If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your spouses and your clans;and the wealth that you have acquired, and the business you people fear recession in it and the residences you are delighted with are more attractive and dearer to you people than Allah and His Messenger and endeavoring/exerting utmost with wealth and bodily/physically for His cause/path then wait until such time Allah proclaims His decision/command.
Certainly there has been for you people an excellently balanced and appropriate example of conduct in the Person of Messenger of Allahfor the one who has been cautiously keeping hope in Allah and the Last Day and he remembered and mentioned Allah quiet frequently/most of the time.
(Now I don't know what should I call a person who says that this Ayat is for the people of that time and is not in function now.)
So when you reach Allah you may have an answer.
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Rana
Wow! Some one with certain Islamic beliefs that fits yours!What is that supposed to mean??? Please make a point.
The label given by Allah serves the purpose well!! and we need not any other label.
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.128n.gif
Our Sustain-er Lord! keep/declare us as two Muslims, for ever surrendering for You,and from our progeny a Muslim community, subservient for You;..........
Like I said - we are talking about descriptive labels. It's different. We are Muslims but I still see nothing wrong in being more descriptive when called for.
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Peace Raaajah,
The label given by Allah serves the purpose well!! and we need not any other label.
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.128n.gif
Our Sustain-er Lord! keep/declare us as two Muslims, for ever surrendering for You,and from our progeny a Muslim community, subservient for You;..........It is highly doubtful that the god gives meaningless labels and we can empirically verify that meaningless labels are useless. There are many people who are labeled as Muslims by virtue of their birth certificate or their state-issued ID and yet I doubt that this is what the god meant by this passage. If those concepts are not meaningless but they have real meaning that the god conveyed to you then you should be translating them and not hide the meaning behind meaningless labels.
Peace,
Ayman
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What is that supposed to mean??? Please make a point.
Like I said - we are talking about descriptive labels. It's different. We are Muslims but I still see nothing wrong in being more descriptive when called for.
Hmm. Let me rephrase - "I" was talking about descriptive labels
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Peace Raaajah,
but before that, ponder on what Mazhar sahib has said..because Allah LOVES Muhammad Peace is upon him a lot and says in his book
You the Messenger, pronounce, "If you people love Allah, then consciously incline yourselves to follow me, in letter and spirit, without in between there being third party intervention, Allah will in response love/appreciate and acknowledge act of you people and for you He will overlook/forgive your wrong-doings"You, the Messenger pronounce, "If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your spouses and your clans;and the wealth that you have acquired, and the business you people fear recession in it and the residences you are delighted with are more attractive and dearer to you people than Allah and His Messenger and endeavoring/exerting utmost with wealth and bodily/physically for His cause/path then wait until such time Allah proclaims His decision/command.
It is certain that Mazhar sahib doesn't say Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam since he knows that it is a blasphemous statement according to his own translation of 3356
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/033.%20D%20Al%20Ahzaab.htm
It is certain that Allah and His Angels send blessings upon the Distinctly Elevated and Chosen One
O you who declare to have accepted listen this imperative, you people incline upon him with love and praising praying Allah for sending blessings, and you people submit to him salutations showing obeisance in a humble and respectful manner.According to Mazhar sahib the word "salam" means "submit to him salutations showing obeisance in a humble and respectful manner" so you are essentially saying that the god submitted to him salutations showing obeisance in a humble and respectful manner, which is blasphemous and the god be exalted above this.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Rana,
Hmm. Let me rephrase - "I" was talking about descriptive labels )
There is no such thing in linguistics. Let's not create a new category of nouns to escape facing contradictions. What we have are proper nouns and common nouns. If something is a proper name then it is a meaningless label and this is why it is not translated since its meaning doesn't convey truth in the context. If something is descriptive, in other words it conveys truth about what it describes then it is a common noun and should be translated. So we can't have it both ways and create a new category called "descriptive labels" that describes truth and yet is not translated to keep the word Muslims untranslated. It is better to translate it even if we get the translation wrong.
Peace,
Ayman