finding a Muslim wife as a Quranist
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The distinction is very blurred. In western society dating is almost equivalent to sex. It's the mating ritual. We're not too far off from other creatures, you see.
That's the biggest bullshit i've ever heard. Dating is dating, sex is sex, you can always date without having sex and you don't need too much willpower to do that.
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OK WTF? Dating doesn't mean sex, you can date if you're sure you won't engage in sexual relationships, dating isn't zina and i suggest you search David_K's topic on how to know someone the islamic way in the Matrimony section
Peace
OPF is against the notion of mere dating being forbidden. I believe he is clarifying what is specifically forbidden in Quran ie sex, not the institution of dating itself, so your frustrated reply is directed to the wrong person.
On a side note, dating does to a degree imply that two people are sexually active, specially in the western world. In theory it may not, and in some practical cases it may not..but generally the trend is that sex is implied with the use of that word.
so IMO, quranic rulings depend on what you mean by the word dating. If its just meeting up to get to know each other more and to enjoy each others company in a non physical way , then sure theres no reason for it to be forbidden...however when dating is taken to include sex, it comes into the forbidden category according to the quran. In effect, before the rulings of Islam can be made certain, we need to be sure of what both the opposing parties mean by the word dating. -
Dating is an English word. In English culture, dating has an incredibly strong component of sexual attraction involved. Stop fighting over words and concentrate on the meaning of al-quran. I'm not here to argue over semantics.
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That's the biggest bullshit i've ever heard. Dating is dating, sex is sex, you can always date without having sex and you don't need too much willpower to do that.
Generally most people would say it takes a lot of will power to refrain from sex if your attracted to the other individual. I agree.
OPF, you and I all agree that dating per se isnt forbidden, provided dating means just getting to know the other person on an emotional and intellectual level. Even though your definition of dating may not include sex, its not the same for everyone and you need to give allowances for multiple implied meanings behind a term.
Furthermore, I think it would be more effective if you argue without the use of such charged language. Doesnt exactly strengthen your argument in any way.
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Dating is an English word. In English culture, dating has an incredibly strong component of sexual attraction involved. Stop fighting over words and concentrate on the meaning of al-quran. I'm not here to argue over semantics.
Check David_K's topic i believe his theories are correct
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Salaam all,
That's the biggest bullshit i've ever heard. Dating is dating, sex is sex, you can always date without having sex and you don't need too much willpower to do that.
This may be of some help inshaAllah.
2235
2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. Allah knows that you will be mentioning about them, but do not promise them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the book interim is reached. And know that Allah knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate.
May Allah help us all in understanding and following His way pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Thanks very much MMKhan. Quranic verses are perfect!
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That's the biggest bullshit i've ever heard. Dating is dating, sex is sex, you can always date without having sex and you don't need too much willpower to do that.
Peace Bro.
Please refrain from using strong words and profanity. If you can, please attempt to discuss the topic without having to resort to using profanity, because it is will not be fruitful.
In regards to the concept of dating, it varies from one society to another. In conservative countries, it is possible to get to know someone of the opposite sex without needing to have intimate/sexual relationship. However, in Western countries, dating is almost synonymous with sexual relationship, whether you want to believe it or not. Just because the environment where you live in allows non-sexual dating, it does not mean the same circumstance applies to ALL societies. I, for one, live in a country where dating is defined by being intimate and sexual, so I can understand why people often associate dating as being engaged in sexual activities. Of course, other societies may have it different and I won?t deny that. I guess I just want you to understand and see that is beyond your environment and sphere of experience. Don?t invalidate others? experiences just because you don?t have it the same as they do. Instead, take notes and learn.
Anyway, going back to original discussion, I concur with OPF that dating in terms of getting to know someone minus the added benefits (read sex and intimacy) is not prohibited by the Qur?an. ?Dating? is just a channel for two people to know each other, and what they do is what?s most important. Getting to know someone before you tie the knot, is necessary in my opinion, so you know that your future partner holds the same belief system and outlook in life as you do; and that you can maintain a healthy relationship for many years to come. Excluding the getting-to-know stage before marriage for excessive fear that you cannot control yourself is quite risky. You yourself know your limit, if you don?t think you can look in others? eyes without feeling lustful, then don?t ?date?.
There are some Qur?anic boundaries in how to interact with the opposite sexes (as maintaining your chastity, lowering your gaze to divert sexual attention, discuss something righteous, being not alone, using modest speech), then there is nothing wrong.
As for Paper Tiger, instead of limiting yourself to finding a ?Qur?anist?, I think you should look for someone who is conscious of the presence of one God, hungry for knowledge and actually translates her belief into action. It goes beyond the whole labeling of ?Qur?anist?, ?Sunni?, ?Shi?as?, etc. Being a Qur?anist and remaining passive in her spiritual development is useless.
Anyway, not all traditional muslims consider that Qur?anists are kaffirs. I guess the key is not to confront them, and try to prove them that they?re wrong. They?ll be defensive and attack you instead. So start by being good friends and show them what being a muslim is, God willing they?ll be drawn to you and don?t think that you are a disbeliever. Anyway, if you want to find a believer partner, be patient. And think of the qualities that you want of her, and become those qualities. You want a woman who is kind, then be kind yourself. If you want a woman who honors her parent, then honor your parent too. If you want a woman who is active in social works, then engage yourself in social works and God willing, you?ll cross paths someday.
That?s all I can say. Good luck!
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That's a heck of an exaggeration?
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Peace
What I always say is if you can't find a Quran alone muslim partner find an open minded person and teach them about your faith. You never know, they might accept. Worked for me.
Peace nsws
Hmm... Interesting. This reminds me of a good quote.
?Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.?
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Peace all
There are truthseekers and monotheists (those who believe in one God) in all relgions. So if a person who follows Quran-based-islam, finds someone who is open minded and accepts the truth, and accepts "Islam based on Quran", then he/she can get to know her. However, I think that if someone who follows "islam based on quran", wants to teach a traditional muslim about his/her belief system, then they have to start as friend. The way he/she is teaching will be optimal when they are friends, because then they will not play any games or were any masks. They will be themselves. And show eachother their true identities. When two persons starts as friend they will have a mental relationship. And guess what, teaching is mental, not physical. So a person can only teach someone optimally when the focus is on mental, not when the focus is on the physical. If a woman/man who follows "islam based on quran", teaches a traditional muslim about islam, the man/woman will have something righteous to say each them he/she meets the traditional muslim. Perhaps this is why the Quran tells us to not meet someone of the opposite sex, unless we have something righteous to say.
Quran 2235
And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the book interim is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Someone who follows quran-based-islam have to invest time into a relationship, if he/she gets married. So why not invest time before he/she is married with a traditional muslim he/she is getting to know, by teaching that person about monotheism and real islam? When people start as friends they will show their true identities. They won't play any roles like actors. They won't play any games. There will be no acting on the scene of life. They will show their true faces. When people are with their families, relatives and friends, they are themselves around them. They show their true faces. That is because there is are no roles or games involved. There is nothing fake. They will keep it real. Personally, I am not against dating. And I don't think it's incompatible with Islam. But that doesn't mean that I date women. And my knowledge and experience tells me that most people don't keep it real when they date eachother. It seems that most people play games, were masks and don't speak from the heart, when they date eachother. According to many people dating can be fake and artifical.
Some people claim that if two persons start as friends, then they will remain friends. But I disagree. In my opinion, if two persons are meant for eachother, they will eventually get to know eachother as more than friends. When two persons start as friends, they can have conversations about islam, religion and spirituality. But how often do we hear that someone went on a date in a restaurant and had a conversation about islam, religion, and spirituality? Rarely. Perhaps it is because people think it is not romantic to talk these topics, and maybe even politically incorrect. Many people avoid topics such as islam, religion and spirituality when they are on a date. But these are the most important topics to talk about. So avoiding to talk about these topics is a huge mistake. I hate to say it, but if you can't talk about everything with someone you are getting to know, then you are playing games and wearing a mask. If you are not talking about topics like islam, religion and spirituality, you are not keeping it real and you are not being yourself. Why should you avoid to talk about islam when this deen is your way of life? That's like being a merchant and hiding the fact that you are a merchant. How can you sell things, if no one knows you are a merchant? That would be impossible. I am not against romance after marriage. If two persons "get to know eachother" by starting as friends, they can be romantic after they have married eachother. Romance doesn't die. You can save it to a future time. Romanticism can make people melancholic and it is fake. But friendships are based on a foundation of realness. And if something is real from the beginning, it will be real to the end. A magician is fake from the beginning to the end. But a diamond is a diamond from the begining to the end.
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Thanks for the clarification everyone
so in short conversing to know someone is okay with other people around but none of the 'hands on stuff' and avoid too much eye contact to prevent sexual tension
I didn't mean that I want exclusively a 'Quranist' wife, but rather that I would like to marry a Muslim first and foremost and most traditional Muslims do not date and there will need be some form of presentation of myself to her walee who may not look favourably when I say I place little emphasis on Hadiths; and I fear overlooking the issue in that would not be wise either as it may lead to problems after marriage
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Salaam Paper Tiger,
Thanks for the clarification everyone
so in short conversing to know someone is okay with other people around but none of the 'hands on stuff' and avoid too much eye contact to prevent sexual tension
I didn't mean that I want exclusively a 'Quranist' wife, but rather that I would like to marry a Muslim first and foremost and most traditional Muslims do not date and there will need be some form of presentation of myself to her walee who may not look favourably when I say I place little emphasis on Hadiths; and I fear overlooking the issue in that would not be wise either as it may lead to problems after marriage
I have already quoted the aayaats that are detailed enough to think about it. Let me give you little explanation on the same inshaAllah.
2221
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while Allah is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
Points to be noted in this aayat is
1- We cannot marry a Mushrik .
2- We cannot marry them UNTIL they become a believer in Allah alone.
3- We cannot marry them even if they are attractive to us.
4- Believing servants are better than Mushriks .
5- The reason for all the above points is "They invite you to the fire".
6- Allah invites you to the Paradise and forgiveness by His permission.
7- Allah make His aayaats clear for the people so that they can remember it.These are the very important points mentioned in 2221
Point number 2 clarifies that we cannot marry any mushrik then we can teach them the way of Allah, but Allah said "UNTIL they become a believer"
By keeping point # 7 in mind, we have to decide from the two paths given to chose from between point # 5 and point # 6.
Unfortunately, every time you have to be aware of
12106
12106 And most of them will not believe in Allah except while setting up partners .So, finally, we have to wait UNTIL Allah brings some believers to us for marriage, and it is NOT hard for Allah. So, good luck.
May Allah help us all in finding believing partners and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace,
I completely agree with you brother khan, I keep these same three verses in mind when it comes to marriage, I do become impatient at times, however when I remind myself of disabled brothers and sisters who may never be able to marry I become more patient, indeed it is a test for them and for us.peace and love!