Masturbation
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Who thinks those thoughts when not horny? Again we agree that you only do this thing when you have to. Obviously the stronger you are, the better that is because it is not advisable to do it for enjoyment. If you masturbate because you are horny (as in ready), you should do so for release (i.e. you should probably be able to do it without much thought or effort). If you really believe (have iman), it will not be hard. Logically one should ask for forgiveness before and/or after. The ideal of course is not to do it at all, but we are all human. We should also be able to recongise that it is not halal and consists of temptations towards lewdness of thought with action. Thus we should guard (how many times in the Qur'an does it say that)?
Peace.
Yes i agree on that
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interesting how rulings and ideas are derived.. there is no definite verse saying it is haram.
A sexual desire is a human instinct right? No one is saying go do zina nor use some toys/equipment/fake stimulation.. Though that might not necessarily matter.
What?s the perceived injustice? pleasure?
it's interesting that studies show children masturbate for a few reasons self soothing due to their feelings, pleasure, exploration.. obviously children don't think in the ways adult do but the reasonings for doing so are similar to adults. if children (or even adults) do it unconsciously or consciously why would it be such a forbidden thing?
also is it just a genitalia thing? or a satisfaction problem? because some people can be sexually gratified without touching below the belt..
p.s Jinn i recall reading a book allowing it for men but forbidding it for women so some sunni ruling allows it, opinions vary.
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For what reason would anyone study the reasons why anyone masturbates?
There is a question, here?Look, if something goes against your conscience, it's probably not a good idea to go forward with it.
It doesn't matter what some book says. Any book.And the bottom line is that it's nobody's damned business.
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It is not guarding your private parts (i.e. you are exposing yourself to your baser instincts at the expense of doing other things and thinking of more productive/higher thoughts regardless), and how could you enjoy masturbation without sexual enjoyment? It is like enjoying food that has not taste (unless you are enjoying it the same way you enjoy drinking water after being thirsty for ages (which we have covered)). If you enjoy it simply like one enjoys a massage, you will find it difficult to ignore the normal thoughts. It is not exactly a muscle that needs massaging and you will find that the only possible reason why someone might think of doing it each day is that they want the enjoyment which would otherwies be supplied by sex. All pleasures at the expense of remembering Allah (SWT) and His way are inclinations away from Islam (see 4712). Notice that I have never declared anything as haram, but rather looked at things as inadvisable or in terms of what direction (towards or away from Allah (SWT)) they face.
Peace.
One of the benefits of masturbation is the orgasm (sexual enjoyment) which can happen without an impure sight or thought. It does not necessarily take away from the zikr of the God. Considering the dopamine release, it could possiblly benefit zikr by destressing and relaxing the individual.
There is nothing wrong with sexual enjoyment otherwise sex itself with one's spouse would be prohibited unless it was absolutely necessary (for procreation) Sex however in the right circumstances and right amount clearly has benefits. Prohibiting such a blessing IMO is potentially sinful. Someone may opt out in order to maximising their chance regarding the race towards good deeds. Mother Teresa may be an exmaple here. However i do thing there is some goodness in the spending of God's provisions in good balance. Like gaining knowledge of the world (such as astronomy) spending of the good things leads us to appreciate internally the blessings of our Creator, Sustainer and Lord.(i.e. you are exposing yourself to your baser instincts at the expense of doing other things and thinking of more productive/higher thoughts regardless)
Potentially then what your saying implies that we should forget entertaining ourselves in any way (including gaining knowledge of the world such as astronomy) or making ourselves good food. By this standard good food is the one that is quickest to prepare. As our time could be better spent then enjoying a tasty meal that has taken us longer to prepare. This I actually think is very good to do so long as there is a cause that is worth this sacrifice. If such sacrifices will help someone be more successful in their race towards good deeds and righteousness and they are sure of this, then I think they should do this. I think it would have a greater standing with God though i am not sure. It may be that spending of God's provisions is part of being completely good. Or just that keeping a good balance is important in the sight of God.
Peace
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How bout the verse that say "god knows that we will be thinking of them" as in the women, does that have any relevance?
I think that might be in a pure context. I doubt it acceptable in the sight of God to think of these men in a lustful way. Just in the fantasy way of what life would be like with them.
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First, what the hell can lewdness do to you when you're alone?
Second, You restrain your glance from REAL people
Third, After orgasm even if you get 100 hottest girls in front of you naked you will ignore them.Stop trying to make everything hardcore, not you but even some others here, if its not explicitly prohibited, ITS NOT HARAM ( doesnt mean it is halal but not haram) Look at 732 and logic a little
First It can make you lewd. Lewdness is a bad initself. Like being arrogant or selfish or any other bad moral attribute. The question is what counts as lewdness.
Check the root of the arabic word for gaze. It could also entail mind. With my own reasoning without being biased i would think it wrong to think sexually about someone without their consent. If I have sexual thoughts about my friends very attractive mother, i don't think he'd like it. His mother may or may not like me thinking about her like this but how can i know untill i directly ask her "would you mind if have sexual thoughts about you". Even in the most unlikely circumstance if she says something like no its natural for guys, i would still feel a bit perverted for doing so but thats my personal emotion. However the possibility of others not wanting to think about them in a sexual way is no personal emotion.
In the case of CGI and anime, i have my own personal opnion which isn't as strong as the other. Because neither are your MMA or Zawj, they are not part of those that are permitted. Trouble with this is that anime or cgi is not based on any real person for their to be offence to any person. Unless you think that women would be offended by being portrayed in such a way.
Third is completely irrelevant. So no comment on that.
I know i'm a bit hardcore on this issue. I am trying to make ammends of a past in which i was addicted to extreme forms of porn and in some ways (though not in the same way) i still am. I am trying to make ammends. It's probabely my strongest weakness which i am trying to make a strength. It might be that my attitude towards anime and cgi is more emotion than reason but I really can't see how thinking seuxally about real people could be not lewd. So im sorry if i am kinda being hardcore......
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Let's try it with a real world application.
When I reached puberty, I discovered masturbation upon my own accord. My family was a "holiday Christian" family whose Bible had several years' worth of dust on it. Was it sinful to discover masturbation? Was it sinful to keep doing it on my own time in my own privacy where I wasn't hurting anyone nor causing any detriment to my academics, family or social lives? Was it sinful to continue doing it to avoid adultery when I became the interest of girls?
Was it sinful to allow my sexual fantasies run rampant in the safety of my own mind where they would never be allowed to escape?
Is it a crime to have fantasies? Is there a weighted sin to fantasize about twin sisters yet no weighted sin attached to the fantasy that my microtia would magically cure itself?
Is it a crime to alleviate said fantasies in a safe, controlled environment as opposed to, say, raping a girl?
Given that masturbation is beneficial to prostate health, stress relief and allows you to know what does and does not arouse you (in order to inform your wife down the road), is it a sin to gain information and use said information to a beneficial effect when you encounter the methodology naturally?
I don't know. It could be a good thing but surely it is never a good thing to think sexually of someone without their consent. I am not condoning porn but I would think that softcore porn is better because then in some ways there is more consent.
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This. Thread. Is. Hilarious.
Geez, you lot seem to be frustrated at each other. Just relax a bit, so you can release your frustration (excuse the lame pun).
Correct me if I'm wrong because I am still trying to digest what is being said. I get the impression that both pro and anti masturbation actually agree that the Qur'an does not say that it is haraam or halaal? The main argument is whether someone should do it or not?
Seriously, if someone feels the sexual urge and wants to keep themselves away from fornication/adultery, then by all means, masturbation will be the lesser of the devils and do it if they cannot control their sexuality otherwise.
If you believe masturbation will keep you away from God's path (by constantly thinking of indecent thoughts), then refrain from it. Simple.
As human beings bestowed with wisdom and knowledge should understand what is best for them, using Qur'anic principles as the guidelines. One can say that masturbation falls under lewdness - but does the Qur'an ever associates masturbation with lewdness? Maybe, maybe not. As it stands, the view seems to be culture-oriented at best. Many of us have been raised to believe that sex, or anything that revolves around it, is dirty. Hence, masturbation = dirty = lewdness. When it may not necessarily be so. I don't know.
Anyway, one needs to consider that every individual has different approach to masturbation. One can do it excessively, one can do it in moderation, one can do it without indecent thoughts. It depends to the individual. Masturbation as an act itself may be harmless. It's just how someone utilises it that matters. I can liken it to eating. Eating is harmless; it is only when you eat excessively that is forbidden.
It's quite judgmental to say that masturbation will make someone remember God less. If that is your take to one act, then why don't you apply it to every single activity that you do in your life? Why go shopping? Why meeting up with friends? Why using the internet? Why studying at high school/university? Why doing my assignment if I'll be too engrossed finding the right formula to design concrete beam for three-storey office with medium occupation, or finding the appropriate journals to read so I can just finish this essay on the impact of globalisation on the local cultures and national identities (okay, my personal vent there)? Why, why, why??? Forget masturbation, I think other affairs distract us as well, even more than masturbation. Why don't I just sit on the corner so I can remember God 24/7? Why don't I just eat a spoonful of rice everyday, and not enjoy the goodness of life's food, because I don't want to enjoy life too much and forget God. So many people are starving out there, so if I eat more, then I'll spend more on myself and less on charity (God tells us to give charity, right???).
IMO the argument that masturbation will make us remember God less cannot be projected on every single individual, really. Just saying that it's not forbidden, so we shouldn't put our righteous turban on and accuse those who masturbate to be unIslamic (unless you really understand what they do and think). That being said, I am not advocating masturbation. I personally believe it's best to refrain from, if one can control the urge.
Just my two cents.
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Good post and your pun wasn't lame. I found it amusing bravo
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I never mentioned that. Remembering Allah (SWT) less will lead to it.
Why though? Would my zikr result in me eating less food? I really can't see a verse which would say masturbation is bad in itself. My reason and logic won't tell me otherwise either.
Bro I am up for disucussing this with you Quranically but if it is the case that you view masturbation as bad in itself purely because it brings about sexual enjoymen (orgasm) then where is you Quranic verse to say or imply this? If not that, then where in your reasoning and logic does this seem wrong?
Peace
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Salaam;
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard .?
22
We should guard ourselves and our thoughts.
??and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed.?
6151
We should not even think about these things because impure thoughts (though concealed) lead to impure impulses. If then we fall to temptation, we should ask forgiveness. Just because our thoughts and associated actions are concealed, it does not mean we are not accountable for intentions
??and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it.?
2284
?Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed??
733
See the notes for 6151.
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Thinking about fornication in conjunction with the act is inclining towards it. Enjoying the act is welcoming the lure of the same (fulfilment of) temptations which fornication offers.
?And who guard their private parts??
235
Performing it is not keeping chaste or abstaining from sexual acts. However 235 is permitted with regards to spouses and ma malakat aymanukum (though performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse is not excepted (see 237) If masturbation were permissible, it would have been included here).
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Thus even if we feel absolutely compelled (i.e. ?justified?), we should ask forgiveness from Allah (SWT). The fact that we should seek forgiveness obviously means the act is inadvisable (un-Islamic).
?Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.?
2430
Impure thoughts naturally invite to impure impulses. In this context, thinking of anyone but one?s spouse (as far as my understanding goes) is not guarding one?s inner modesty as a servant of Allah (SWT). It should be noted that 235 does not give an exception for performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse (hence it is completely haram in traditional schools).
?And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace.?
2433
There is no link here between marriage and nikah, and because chastity is demanded except before spouses and ma malakat aymanukum, anything outside of this is prohibited or inadvisable. The act is not simply an act; it is a thought, a compulsion with the thought, an intention and an action that could have been prevented by distracting oneself (e.g. guarding and remembering Allah (SWT)).
?Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.?
4712
Giving in to temptation is the way of disbelief. Thus one should guard one?s thoughts (22).
?So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord. And those who shun the great sins, and the indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive.?
4236-37
These ayat say that remembering Allah (SWT) is more beneficial than giving in to temptation. It is advisable to avoid the act because this is in accordance of the ideals of true Muslims. Allowing oneself to think about indecencies is not shunning them. We are only human, but that is partly why we must remember Him standing, sitting and lying (3191). It gives us the greatest chance to develop ourselves.
?Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.?
9017
Muslims should tell each other to be patient (e.g. against temptation unlike in this forum). See also Sura 103.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and therefore you should not do it. There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
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Peace,
Re-read my post. Again, where does it say that exploring my sexuality is forbidden? The current Sunni ruling is that you can masturbate your spouse but you can't masturbate yourself. Can you please explain this logic?
Peace,
Because the age of marriage is when you are of sound mind and strength (46, 1734), possessing the ability to study the Qur'an.
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You've fallen short on a few key points in justifying your position.
Well I stopped trusting people when they talk heroically.
- Your concept of lewdness is not quranic, thus you've fallen short of proving masturbation is lewd.
Oh well I hope my post before my last helps you to understand.
- You have decided for yourself that pleasuring yourself is animalistic with no evidence from quran. Your quoting of 47/12 was irrelevant because it doesn't even come close to what you think it says.
Really? Even if I accepted that, the ayah ALSO mentions sin and fornication is a sin thus thinking about it is thinking about a sin which makes you want to do it and obtain the same satisfaction from thought and action that you would otherwise get from fornication... If you are a good Muslim you will distract yourself from such thoughts besides. Therefore Masturbation is inadvisable. However you provide no support to prove that 4712 does not mean what it declares (predictable).
And finally, you have taken it upon yourself to dictate to mankind what is beneficial for being a muslim and what isn't.
True, using the Qur?an. Do you have a problem?
It's worth pointing out that fahisha, which some people commonly translate as 'lewdness' is better understood as 'immorality' or 'injustice'. Fahisha is directly contrasted with qisti (justice) in 7/29.
But the contrast does not exist. How can you declare that they are contrasted when they are different words in different ayat? That is just your contrast, not Allah?s (SWT).
Just look
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=fH$#(7335)
So your attempt at corruption is short.
The point regarding disrespecting women/men you fantasise about is farcical, as far as I'm concerned. It matters not one iota to me if a woman sits in the privacy of her room and fantasises about me. Nor do I have any right to be disrespected by what goes on in the minds of other people.
It is whether you disrespect them in Allah?s (SWT) mandate, not whether the other person knows or cares. You are a fool and I have talked to many just like you.
'Farjaha' of 24/30 isn't literally to guard your penis. As pointed out already, you can't guard yourself from yourself, nor should you try. The verse itself is metaphorical, given that it begins with 'lower your gaze'. No one takes that to mean literally look downwards.
The first part of the ayah applies to your reasoning, so the second part therefore probably would not agree! Lower gaze (guard your modesty, avoid lewdness and avoid temptation (not just in eyesight, as you admit but for the wrong phrase)). Just guard your chastity/private parts from sexual acts (since the metaphor was already used before the part which you applied it to).
The point of "exposing yourself to baser instincts" is also a poor argument given that there is nothing immoral in satiating a base instinct. To suggest this is somehow immoral is misguided. Can you prove that satisfying a base desire is bad?
But you are misguided. See the next point
"All pleasures at the expense of remembering Allah (SWT) and His way are inclinations away from Islam (see 4712)"
47/12 says nothing of the sort. It says believers will be rewarded and then gives you the characteristic of a disbeliever. Where are the words that suggest "all pleasures at the expense of remembering Allah" are an inclination away from Islam?
So does everyone agree that the devil would agree with him? He implies that we can enjoy ourselves as much as we want without thinking about Allah (SWT). He would say that we can masturbate freely for pleasure without even asking for forgiveness.
The final point regarding being a better muslim as a result of it... that's for the individual to decide. A regular release may help a person concentrate during the day. Perhaps it helps release stress, which would otherwise build up and have a detrimental effect on other parts of a person's life. Perhaps a regular release makes that person happy. These are good enough reasons to do it, as far as I'm concerned. If it does nothing for you, don't do it.
Or you could pray, study the Qur?an and focus on other thoughts. After all, it is the devil who enjoins immorality and the forgetting of Allah (SWT) (2268 and 2421).
Thank you for an empty and yet amusing post.
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Here's some advice A piece of weak evidence is weak regardless of how many times it's multiplied. Adding multiple weak pieces of evidence together does not a strong case make. At the end of the day, you still have a weak case. You consistently fail to grasp this fact.
Well I will accept that for just enough time for me to say that you have no case at all. Who do you think is always going to win (even if (assuming again for a second you are correct) principally)?
Assuming this pertains to masturbation.
It refers to chastity which refers to private parts.
That and your previous point easily cleared by reading my ?article?.
Would you remember God while ejaculating into your wife? Answer Yes or No. Then answer how that would substantively be different than remembering God while masturbating.
You are a fool. Notice that I have always maintained it may be OK to think about one?s wife (during masturbation). However, ideally sexual pleasure is mutual pleasure and in Allah?s (SWT) mandate it may be more respectful for sex (certainly) and sexual fantasies to remain mutual. This is one reason why Allah (SWT) actually said that sex with one?s wife was permissible!
Relevant quote from that verse, I presume, is "eating as the livestock eat"
So you're taking that small phrase, and broadly equating it to acting like an animal. Then implying that acting like an animal in any way is bad. Then implying that masturbating is acting like an animal. 3 assumptions, one on top of the other. All based on....."eating as the livestock eat."
"Logical" alright.
Well actually the relevant quote is ?enjoy themselves AND eat?? So acting like an animal in a sexual way is OK for you but not when it comes to food. Logical, true. The fact is I only need to prove that it is inadvisable (more inadvisable than not) to prove my entire argument throughout this thread.
I want to be offended but this is such a lame insult all I can do is giggle.
It was meant to be effective, not humorous. It is quite an apt description.
If you could have it your way, you'd "force." Under your "unity of Islam" banner. You are no different from any extremist group who condemns anyone who dares veer from the party line. You don't "discuss" anything. You attempt to steamroll everyone with your own personal views, sprinkling tangentially-related verses here and there that do not prove what you think they do.
Now what did I say to you about huff and puff? It is not good for you. You have no case, but I [i[do have a case. You say my case is bad, but you still have no case!
You and others who are arguing with me keep saying that it is not inadvisable to act like an animal, so who is playing with fire?
This business of legislating morality based on the flimsiest of evidence. Very dangerous.
A Muslim believes the Qur?an is actually the truth, not flimsy evidence. Sad that I have not legislated anything but my understanding (which you cannot answer). Saying that having an opinion on the Qur?an is dangerous sums up your wit.
Simply repeating the words "obvious" and "logically" over and over again doesn't make it so.
For someone who is so against masturbation, you seem to have no problem waving your dick around. It's pathetic and unbecoming.
Some odd logic. If a person knows or understands something, that person will be more involved in the discussion. Why don?t you start a ?pro-masturbation? sect since your presence here is unnecessary if that is not your intention. I have an understanding and the person on this thread who originally disagreed with me now apparently agrees. My advice is to not masturbate unless you absolutely have to, and because there is no strict limit to that or to temptation, we should ask forgiveness if we ever do it (if you have a problem, provide some evidence to justify or be gone with your inadequacy).
However you would prefer to wave it around more often. Please define how many times per second/minute/hour/week and justify using the Qur?an.
Thanks,
Peace. -
Salaam;
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard .?
22
We should guard ourselves and our thoughts.
??and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed.?
6151
We should not even think about these things because impure thoughts (though concealed) lead to impure impulses. If then we fall to temptation, we should ask forgiveness. Just because our thoughts and associated actions are concealed, it does not mean we are not accountable for intentions
??and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it.?
2284
?Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed??
733
See the notes for 6151.
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Thinking about fornication in conjunction with the act is inclining towards it. Enjoying the act is welcoming the lure of the same (fulfilment of) temptations which fornication offers.
?And who guard their private parts??
235
Performing it is not keeping chaste or abstaining from sexual acts. However 235 is permitted with regards to spouses and ma malakat aymanukum (though performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse is not excepted (see 237) If masturbation were permissible, it would have been included here).
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Thus even if we feel absolutely compelled (i.e. ?justified?), we should ask forgiveness from Allah (SWT). The fact that we should seek forgiveness obviously means the act is inadvisable (un-Islamic).
?Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.?
2430
Impure thoughts naturally invite to impure impulses. In this context, thinking of anyone but one?s spouse (as far as my understanding goes) is not guarding one?s inner modesty as a servant of Allah (SWT). It should be noted that 235 does not give an exception for performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse (hence it is completely haram in traditional schools).
?And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace.?
2433
There is no link here between marriage and nikah, and because chastity is demanded except before spouses and ma malakat aymanukum, anything outside of this is prohibited or inadvisable. The act is not simply an act; it is a thought, a compulsion with the thought, an intention and an action that could have been prevented by distracting oneself (e.g. guarding and remembering Allah (SWT)).
?Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.?
4712
Giving in to temptation is the way of disbelief. Thus one should guard one?s thoughts (22).
?So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord. And those who shun the great sins, and the indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive.?
4236-37
These ayat say that remembering Allah (SWT) is more beneficial than giving in to temptation. It is advisable to avoid the act because this is in accordance of the ideals of true Muslims. Allowing oneself to think about indecencies is not shunning them. We are only human, but that is partly why we must remember Him standing, sitting and lying (3191). It gives us the greatest chance to develop ourselves.
?Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.?
9017
Muslims should tell each other to be patient (e.g. against temptation unlike in this forum). See also Sura 103.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and therefore you should not do it. There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
Peace Mesmorial
I am not sure you have understood my earlier post.
I am in agreement that thoughts of a sexual nature about strangers is wrong BUT if masturbation happens without sexual thought and orgasm is acheieved then what you have isOrgasm (sexual pleasure) without thinking sexual thoughts. How is this even coming near lewdness? Which part is wrong or in contradiction to the Quran to you?
- The orgasm? Or 2) The act of playing with the genital purposefully?
If would not be fair to say that masturbating would then lead to wanting more and more thus leading you to lewdness. It is not a clear link. If you have experienced that the act leads to worser things (I am not saying this is the case as from what your posts imply you have never committed the act) then you have a point. But your point only applies to you. It may be that someone else has been given the nature of being able to masturbate 5 times a day without being tempted into going on porn or something like that.
You have not specifically labled anything haram or halal as you say. But to say it is inadvisable would still need some verses or reasons to back it up with. Could any of your quoted verses be applied to 1) and 2) such that it makes them inadvisable?
I can say it is inadvisable to not do good deeds. I would say this only because i beleive that good deeds are good for someone thus it is inadvisable not to do good deeds for they are not doing good for themselves. But i can't apply this to masturbation. I can't say it is better to not masturbate for i have nothing to back this up with. In the case of good deeds i do have something to back it up with (verses advising us to do good deeds)
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Peace nimnimak_11
Is there pleasure in masturbation whilst shutting down your own mind? You might find yourself thinking the thoughts unintentionally more and more often (which is a sign you might need to do it), especially if surrounded by things
"Say The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful."
5100
It may be an example of guarding if you do it whilst declaring intention to avoid "mental enjoyment" and for the purpose of easing the effects of things (and the thoughts that they foster) on you. I think that covers your two cases, but that is the same as "doing it when you have to" as I have always said. However the urge can for a large part be fought and ignored, and so the "ideal perfect Muslim" will not have to do it "purposefully" because their mind and senses are too well guarded.
Peace.
P.S. It should be clarified that obviously not the doing will lead to it more often, but the allowing of oneself (which is what I meant by standards before).
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Really? Even if I accepted that, the ayah ALSO mentions sin
Does it? Where?
and fornication is a sin
Irrelevant.
thus thinking about it is thinking about a sin
Irrelevant.
which makes you want to do it
Do what? The sin? Simply projecting your own opinions onto everyone as fact.
and obtain the same satisfaction from thought and action that you would otherwise get from fornication...
But it's not fornication. What if the fantasy is not of fornication, but of marriage? What if your fantasy is that Beyonce is your wife? That would mean you're actually thinking of something completely halal.
If you are a good Muslim you will distract yourself from such thoughts besides. Therefore Masturbation is inadvisable.
But nothing from quran to back this up. A good muslim enjoys the good things of this life.
However you provide no support to prove that 4712 does not mean what it declares (predictable).
No, it means what it declares. It just doesn't mean what you declare.
True, using the Qur?an. Do you have a problem?
False. That is the problem.
But the contrast does not exist. How can you declare that they are contrasted when they are different words in different ayat? That is just your contrast, not Allah?s (SWT).
Of course they are different words, that's the whole point. If they were the same word then there wouldn't be a contrast. Fahisha is contrasted with qisti.
So your attempt at corruption is short.
Your attempt at a refutation was even shorter. Funnily, the site you linked translates fahisha in 7/28 as immorality.
It is whether you disrespect them in Allah?s (SWT) mandate, not whether the other person knows or cares. You are a fool and I have talked to many just like you.
You're yet to show the quranic ayah that suggests thinking about someone is disrespecting them in Allah's mandate.
Lower gaze (guard your modesty, avoid lewdness and avoid temptation (not just in eyesight, as you admit but for the wrong phrase)). Just guard your chastity/private parts from sexual acts (since the metaphor was already used before the part which you applied it to).
So you're admitting that guarding your farjaha doesn't mean to literally guard your penis. So why is masturbation a violation of such guarding? The problem is you're projecting something onto the verse that isn't there. The guarding is metaphorical (obviously) otherwise you couldn't have sex with your wife. So you're not meant to guard your penis from your wife. Why then would you need to guard your penis from your own hand?
He implies that we can enjoy ourselves as much as we want without thinking about Allah (SWT).
Is that what I implied? You claimed that 47/12 says satiating a base desire is an inclination away from Islam. It does not say this. Why is it animalistic to satiate a base desire? Please provide quranic proof. Hint 47/12 does not say this.
He would say that we can masturbate freely for pleasure without even asking for forgiveness.
Yes, that is what I am saying. Why should you ask for forgiveness if it is not forbidden? Should one seek forgiveness if your wife masturbates you freely for your pleasure? Why does it then require forgiveness when it is your hand doing it? When did your hand become something to be ashamed and guilty of?
Or you could pray, study the Qur?an and focus on other thoughts.
Does the 'or' imply you've conceded it is a choice that people can make without feeling guilty? People can focus on several things in their lives. You're entire argument is that it is 'inadvisable' yet can't show where this advice originated from using quran.
After all, it is the devil who enjoins immorality
Indeed. Can you show masturbation is immoral? You've failed so far.
and the forgetting of Allah (SWT) (2268 and 2421).
Yea, kind of like how you forget your Lord when you ejaculate into your wife.
Thank you for an empty and yet amusing post.
The irony!
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Peace nimnimak_11
Is there pleasure in masturbation whilst shutting down your own mind? You might find yourself thinking the thoughts unintentionally more and more often (which is a sign you might need to do it), especially if surrounded by things
"Say The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful."
5100
It may be an example of guarding if you do it whilst declaring intention to avoid "mental enjoyment" and for the purpose of easing the effects of things (and the thoughts that they foster) on you. I think that covers your two cases, but that is the same as "doing it when you have to" as I have always said. However the urge can for a large part be fought and ignored, and so the "ideal perfect Muslim" will not have to do it "purposefully" because their mind and senses are too well guarded.
Peace.
P.S. It should be clarified that obviously not the doing will lead to it more often, but the allowing of oneself (which is what I meant by standards before).
Peace Mesmorial
Is there pleasure in masturbation whilst shutting down your own mind? You might find yourself thinking the thoughts unintentionally more and more often (which is a sign you might need to do it), especially if surrounded by things
Yes the outcome (orgasm) is pleasure which can happen whilst you restrain your sight and mind. I can say this from experience. Some may find themselves thinking unintentionally more and more whilst others may not. Those who do, it may be that that is the right time for them to abstain for a while or to lessen how often they do the act perhaps.
It may be an example of guarding if you do it whilst declaring intention to avoid "mental enjoyment" and for the purpose of easing the effects of things (and the thoughts that they foster) on you. I think that covers your two cases, but that is the same as "doing it when you have to" as I have always said. However the urge can for a large part be fought and ignored, and so the "ideal perfect Muslim" will not have to do it "purposefully" because their mind and senses are too well guarded.
It almost covers my two cases but not fully. An individual who chooses to masturbate, may do so purely for the orgasm that comes with the act and not for the sake of release. If they do so with a pure mind and sight, then i would think it almost objectively clear that they have not done wrong in the sight of God in accordance with the Quran. So I think that its not the same as "doing it when you have to" its also doing it because it brings pleasure which is a good thing (so long as there is no transgression involved).
Yes someone can choose to abstain from masturbation and fight the urge. One can also fight other urges such as watching a film or eating chocolate and so on. It's obviously not impossible as others have done it but does it really contribute to being the ideal perfect muslim? I think it could potentially make someone in a better standing in the sight of God (hence better muslim) but someone who would choose to avoid such urges would also be better off avoiding other urges such as watching a good film or playing a game or going to a restaurant and so on as they take away time which could be spent on improving themselves or racing towards good deeds (as was to some extent the case with the people like mother theresa)
So if your of the belief that masturbation would be avoided by the ideal muslim because there are better things to attend to, then i would also assume that you agree with me in saying that the ideal muslim would also avoid other blessings and provisions of this worldly life such as playing a good game or going out for fun and so on because they take up time. These verses may be useful
2286 GOD does not impose a person beyond its capacity. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns....
2148 To each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds.....
There are also verses that also advise that we spend of God's provisions. To eat and enjoy of the good things
587-88 O you who acknowledge, do not forbid the good things that God has made lawful to you, and do not transgress God does not like the transgressors. Eat from what God has provided for you, good and lawful; and be aware of God in whom you acknowledge."
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I am loving this thread. 10 pages on Masturbation. What a great forum to keep this thing going.
In Judaism for each desire there is a notion of the Yetzer Ra (Bad Inclination) and Yetzer Tov (Good Inclination). Very similar to Yin and Yang. Basically it has the notion that every inclination is both good and bad. Take greed. Greed causes us to get jobs and work and be productive people. But it can be taken too far and cause us to harm others. Depends on how we focus the desire. Also consider the desire for sex. It is good because it causes us to reproduce. But it can also be bad as it causes us to possibly hurt others (ie rape). The desire itself is not inherently bad nor good. It is how you use that inclination. For example, for some the desire to masturbate allows them stress relief and they are better humans since they haven't all that pent up frustration. On the other hand (sorry the pun) it can be a bad since it can lead you into porn/sex addiction. The goal is to use your desires towards the Yetzer Tov verus the Yetzer Ra.
I think this applies to this conversation as many say it is only bad while other say it is good. I think it can be both bad or good depending on the use and inclination. If it causes you to be a better person, then why not. If it causes you to be a worse person then you should stop. The only things that should be classified as haram are those explicitly listed in the Quran. Otherwise I think desires should be used towards the good inclination to bring you closer to Allah. That is the goal right? If your frustration keeps you from getting close to Allah then try to eliminate the frustration. If the desire causes you to be further from Allah then don't entertain the desire. Just be aware of how your desire affects your goal of getting close to Allah.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace