Masturbation
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It should be noted (e.g. by moderators but not just them therefore this is a public posting) that I will not be rude to people who do not pretend to have a point and who do not distort the issue first. If a moderator believes that the verses I post are irrelevant, he or she will join the discussion.
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Peace.
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Ironic.
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Well here it is. Please note that it does actually cover the arguments. Relating masturbation as equal to any game or sport (as a diversion) is addressed by the fact that it draws closer to indecency than they (and it is an indecent act), and so just like we would not eat unusual animals that are not normally hunted before usual meats (i.e. we would not eat dog before chicken - see 53-4 for the emphasis on eating what we normally hunt), we will not perform this act when there is a range of alternatives.
If I am wasting bandwidth, please delete my previous posting of this.
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).?
22
We should guard everything about ourselves (including our thoughts since they lead to temptation). Whoever guards their thoughts will automatically avoid it until (if) absolutely necessary. We should not look for excuses (loopholes).
??and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed.?
6151
We should not even think about these things because impure thoughts (though concealed) lead to impure impulses. If then we fall to temptation, we should ask forgiveness. Just because our thoughts and associated actions are concealed, it does not mean we are not accountable for intentions
??and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it.?
2284
Indecent thoughts are indecencies, and we should be remembering Allah (SWT) instead (3191).
?Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed??
733
See the notes for 6151.
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Thinking about fornication in conjunction with the act is inclining towards it. Enjoying the act is welcoming the lure of the same (fulfilment of) temptations which fornication offers.
?And who guard their private parts??
235
Performing it is not keeping chaste or abstaining from sexual acts. However, 235 is permitted with regards to spouses and ma malakat aymanukum. Note performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse is not excepted (see 237) If masturbation were permissible, it might have been included here. After all, committing indecent acts with wives and ma malakat aymanukum is allowed, but not committing indecent acts with oneself!
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Thus even if we feel absolutely compelled (i.e. ?justified?), we should ask forgiveness from Allah (SWT). The fact that we should seek forgiveness obviously means the act is inadvisable (un-Islamic).
?Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.?
2430
Impure thoughts naturally invite to impure impulses. In this context, thinking of anyone but one?s spouse (as far as my understanding goes) is not guarding one?s inner modesty as a servant of Allah (SWT). It should be noted that 235 does not give an exception for performing the act whilst <i>thinking</i> about one?s spouse (hence it is completely haram in traditional schools). It should also be considered that ideally sexual pleasure is mutual pleasure, and in Allah?s (SWT) mandate it may be more respectful for sex (certainly) and sexual fantasies to remain mutual (hence ?casting down our looks?). Finally, there is the fact that committing indecent acts with oneself (assessable by the nature of it being so if another did it for us) is not made permissible like it is with spouses and ma malakat aymanukum.
?And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace.?
2433
There is no link here between marriage and nikah, and because chastity is demanded except before spouses and ma malakat aymanukum, anything outside of this is prohibited or inadvisable. The act is not simply an act; it is a thought, a compulsion with the thought, an intention and an action that could have been prevented by distracting oneself (e.g. guarding and remembering Allah (SWT)). Now even if we feign a ?pure mind?, it is not like a muscle that needs to be massaged and secondly it is an indecent act simply performed on ourselves by ourselves. This suggests that sexual acts should be mutual with the specified people.
?Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.?
4712
Giving in to temptation is the way of disbelief, thus one should guard one?s thoughts (22). Stress is not an excuse (15). One can of course enjoy family time between praying, working and being upright. In all cases, the right choice will be obvious to true believers (2256-267).
?So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord. And those who shun the great sins, and the indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive.?
4236-37
These ayat say that remembering Allah (SWT) is more beneficial than giving in to temptation. It is advisable to avoid the act because this is in accordance of the ideals of true Muslims. Allowing oneself to think about indecencies is not shunning them. We are only human, but that is partly why we must remember Him standing, sitting and lying (3191). It gives us the greatest chance to develop ourselves, and "harmless pleasure" is not an excuse because the devil makes foul deeds (and the thoughts that go with them) seem fair (e.g. 2212, 314, 848 and 1012). Masturbation is an indecency by oneself on oneself (obviously by the fact it would be if a stranger did it on one) regardless of one's state of mind.
?Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.?
9017
Muslims should tell each other to be patient (e.g. against temptation). See also Sura 103.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and thus you should not do it if you can help it (e.g. by praying to remember Allah (SWT) and finding other diversions). There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
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Is that it, Khuda Hafiz? Is your word, the final word for all mankind of all time? Is your word, the ONE word?
Relating masturbation as equal to any game or sport (as a diversion) is addressed by the fact that it draws closer to indecency than they (and it is an indecent act), and so just like we would not eat unusual animals that are not normally hunted before usual meats (i.e. we would not eat dog before chicken - see 53-4 for the emphasis on eating what we normally hunt), we will not perform this act when there is a range of alternatives.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and thus you should not do it if you can help it (e.g. by praying to remember Allah (SWT) and finding other diversions). There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
You may want to reevaluate your use of the words "should" and "should not". Again, are those the final words for all mankind of all time?
... Or are those just the final words for yourself?
Could it be that the moderators and some other people here are more concerned about your pushing of your final words for yourself, as the final words for others--more so than the destructive/creative possibilities of the act itself? For me, yes that is my concern.
Your finding and learning is much respected, that's for sure. I do respect your opinion. Can you do the same to others? Can you respect other people's opinion and their own responsibility to do the best for themselves? If for example, someone found out for him/herself that in his own unique circumstances, masturbation would be the best solution for him/her, would you respect his/her decision?
Yes, masturbation is not as "inadvisable" as perhaps you think it is. Would you even think of that as a possibility, even if it's beyond what your current belief says?
Is it so impossible for these two statements...
A) one is masturbating
B) one is remembering his/her Creator...to be connected by the conjunction AND?
(or in other topics, you can change statement A) to "one is gaming/sporting/..." etc)
Well if it is impossible for you, would you then respect someone else who's able to make it possible?
No, you are not wasting bandwidth, and maybe, just maybe, you can take up some time to consider that there could be wisdom in what other people are saying or trying to say, even if they didn't deliver it perfectly well in their presentation?
P.S. Btw you might want to move out your contents from the site you linked in your sig, because when i clicked it, i saw an indecent banner image (i.e. a woman in a bikini in a questionable pose -- a cartoon one though, but still it is the image of a woman) -- just thought that it doesn't seem to be up to your standard.
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This discussion is like a merry-go-round.... I love merry-go-round. Eventhough you get nowhere the ride is fun.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
It's freaking disturbing, man.
There is no verse that says it's okay or not to tickle your winky from time to time.
If there is, I hold it in high suspicion and contempt.In fact, if that's the way it is... let's enforce a rule that we have to do it at least once a day
....just to keep our heads from exploding. -
A) one is masturbating
B) one is remembering his/her Creator...to be connected by the conjunction AND?
By asking forgiveness, as I mentioned so many times.
The ads do not seem to show on my computer. You may wish to tweak your settings (or download a blocker). Apologies.
Peace.
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By asking forgiveness, as I mentioned so many times.
And one would be asking for "forgiveness" because... there is (supposed to be) guilt?
Is this "guilt" the same thing that you are trying to instill to others 'so many times' in your previous posts? If not then what, will you let me know?
How about for a change, instead of the feeling of "guilt", "gratitude"? Because God knows there could be cases outside of our own little world where people are experiencing the feeling of Gratitude through the act of masturbation... (for sexual reasons, of course, not as a be all end all outlet for everything -- let's not mix other not-so-relevant issues, e.g. "refuge" has more to do with "fear/security" than anything else).
The ads do not seem to show on my computer. You may wish to tweak your settings (or download a blocker). Apologies.
Exactly, about the ads. It's just a little example of things that are just beyond our control. That "blocker" would be in my part isn't it? And so it is my responsibility (if it were that disturbing anyway). Maybe, the atmosphere of this thread would have been much better if we replace our 'you should's with 'you may wish to' as you have just demonstrated above?
No need for apologies. More importantly, no need for guilt. Just clean conscience executed in an environment free from other people's judgment would suffice for everyone with -duh- conscience. With freedom, comes honesty and with honesty, comes self-correction.
P.S. I mean, even Darth Vader eventually got back to his conscience to save his skywalkin' son
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And one would be asking for "forgiveness" because... there is (supposed to be) guilt?
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How about for a change, instead of the feeling of "guilt", "gratitude"? Because God knows there could be cases outside of our own little world where people are experiencing the feeling of Gratitude through the act of masturbation... (for sexual reasons, of course, not as a be all end all outlet for everything -- let's not mix other not-so-relevant issues, e.g. "refuge" has more to do with "fear/security" than anything else).
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).?
22
We should guard everything about ourselves (including our thoughts since they lead to temptation).
If you want to think dirty thoughts, then think again. Indecent thoughts are indecencies, and we should be remembering Allah (SWT) instead (3191). If one absolutely feels that they need to release, they should ask for forgiveness before and after (2286).
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Kindly explain how deliberately thinking dirty thoughts is not dirty. If you can do that then perhaps you can explain why we should not ask forgiveness. You admitted that masturbation is for sexual pleasure, and you have no substance. Finally, tell me where in the Qur?an it talks about little green men enjoying masturbation.
Exactly, about the ads. It's just a little example of things that are just beyond our control. That "blocker" would be in my part isn't it? And so it is my responsibility (if it were that disturbing anyway). Maybe, the atmosphere of this thread would have been much better if we replace our 'you should's with 'you may wish to' as you have just demonstrated above?
If the cartoon is disturbing to you, you should and develop your iman (that would indeed be your problem). Thankyou but there is currently no reason to change my wording.
No need for apologies. More importantly, no need for guilt. Just clean conscience executed in an environment free from other people's judgment would suffice for everyone with -duh- conscience. With freedom, comes honesty and with honesty, comes self-correction.
There was no need, but I thought it might cheer you up. Again
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Saying that you can masturbate with dirty thoughts simply because you want to is a regression in this discourse.
P.S. I mean, even Darth Vader eventually got back to his conscience to save his skywalkin' son
It is up to your own conscience. The choice is quite clear (2256-257).
Salaam.
P.S.
15 applies to all situations of stress. E.g. some people addicted to drugs can go into a "panic" without them.
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All your shoulds considered, i'm quite comfortable with my own conscience, thank you. )
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).?
22
We should guard everything about ourselves (including our thoughts since they lead to temptation).
If you want to think dirty thoughts
Let's stop there. As in any discussion, definition makes the foundation.
- Please define/explain what do you mean by "dirty thoughts"
- Please also explain how does that come into our discussion, when in fact, i have never mentioned such thing.
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- Dirty thoughts
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Since fornication is indecent and evil, so are thoughts about it and any thoughts which go nigh unto it.
- Of course you never mentioned such a thing. You mentioned what came under the category
Because God knows there could be cases outside of our own little world where people are experiencing the feeling of Gratitude through the act of masturbation... (for sexual reasons, of course, not as a be all end all outlet for everything -- let's not mix other not-so-relevant issues, e.g. "refuge" has more to do with "fear/security" than anything else).
In order to bring your own attention to the act, you have to have a reason to think about it and the pleasure that you will receive.
Peace.
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- Dirty thoughts
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Since fornication is indecent and evil, so are thoughts about it and any thoughts which go nigh unto it.
- Of course you never mentioned such a thing. You mentioned what came under the category
In order to bring your own attention to the act, you have to have a reason to think about it and the pleasure that you will receive.
Peace.
A better translation of 1732
And do not come near to adultery; surely it has been an obscenity and odious as a way.
How can you come near adultery(zina) by thoughts?
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Since fornication is indecent and evil, so are thoughts about it and any thoughts which go nigh unto it.
Um, kindly explain how sexually pleasing yourself equates to drawing near to fornication, which is, having sex with someone other than your spouse?
I also would like an elaboration, please. You stated that masturbation will lead one to forget God, and our duty to serve him. Will you say the same thing about having sex with your spouse, playing games, shopping, studying for exams, hanging out with friends, etc. Those issues 'waste' way more time than masturbation itself. If you use the "forget God" argument, why don't you treat other things the same way, because they have the potential to lead us astray. Then again, wealth and children are said to potentially be a trial/temptation for us. Maybe we should not gain wealth or have children then? Eliminate the desires, rather than control them. Hmmm....
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A better translation of 1732
And do not come near to adultery; surely it has been an obscenity and odious as a way.
How can you come near adultery(zina) by thoughts? )
Using the same line of thinking, then I must be coming near ending poverty and slavery merely by thinking saving all those unfortunate people (and not doing anything about it). I can hear the rewards make the sound of "kachink kachink"
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A better translation of 1732
And do not come near to adultery; surely it has been an obscenity and odious as a way.
How can you come near adultery(zina) by thoughts?
I cannot address everyone who refuses to read
We are talking about the thoughts coming near it (i.e. the thoughts that lead to temptation) not the person.
nope
Peace
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Using the same line of thinking, then I must be coming near ending poverty and slavery merely by thinking saving all those unfortunate people (and not doing anything about it). I can hear the rewards make the sound of "kachink kachink"
You made the same mistake I just addressed above. The original question was about the definition of "dirty thought", and I did NOT say a dirty thought was something that made you go near to dirty things. I said that the thought was dirty simply if it was about dirty things. Now if you act on this then it becomes your intention (2284). If a dity thought comes, you will guard against it (22).
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Um, kindly explain how sexually pleasing yourself equates to drawing near to fornication, which is, having sex with someone other than your spouse?
I also would like an elaboration, please. You stated that masturbation will lead one to forget God, and our duty to serve him. Will you say the same thing about having sex with your spouse, playing games, shopping, studying for exams, hanging out with friends, etc. Those issues 'waste' way more time than masturbation itself. If you use the "forget God" argument, why don't you treat other things the same way, because they have the potential to lead us astray. Then again, wealth and children are said to potentially be a trial/temptation for us. Maybe we should not gain wealth or have children then? Eliminate the desires, rather than control them. Hmmm....
Again I addressed this many times already. Sexually pleasing yourself is firstly dirty if you are enjoying it by thinking of dirty thoughts at the same time. You are inclining towards what is indecent and evil because you are obtaining pleasure from dirty thoughts and fulfilling the same desire that makes one want to fornicate anyway. Secondly you are NOT guarding your thoughts (22). Thirdly, if you are thinking about having sex with someone to whom you are not in reality married, then how are you remembering or respecting Allah (SWT)? Fourthly if you think you can remember Allah (SWT) whilst masturbating by not thinking dirty thoughts, then are you doing it because you have to (see 2286) or are you doing it because you have convinced yourself of some mental aloofness from the sexual desire that is really your illusion? Can you answer why you did not fear Allah (SWT) whilst you were doing the act literally in front of Him? Was it necessary to perform an indecent act on yourself (indecent regardless of whether anyone sees it (unlike showering)? Fifthly since the only time that you may need to do it is during a dream or when you absolutely need to (in which case you will ask for forgiveness (2286)), you should be remembering Him (3191) and therefore FEARING Him. It is all the worse if you pretend to remember Him. Sixthly, if you are a Muslim, what right have you not to fear Him on this issue (given the verses and reasoning I posted)? Seventhly if your iman is strong enough you will keep your thoughts away from consciousness of sex altogether (except with regard to the specified people). Seventhly (in conjunction with six) you will make haste to good deeds (214 instead.
Finally can you explain how any of those activities you listed above comes even close to being a waste of time (assuming that you are an ordinary upright Muslim)? I cannot see the resemblance between these and masturbation. I also addressed this before.
Peace.
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Salaam,
That is because you have associated masturbation with indecency (or "fahisha", whereas the Qur'an never explicitly classifies masturbation as indecency. Maybe, maybe not. As I said previously, I can do without. But the problem here is that you impose your own interpretation of the Qur'an on everybody else, and call them a fool for not having the same interpretation as you do. A brother in a previous post expressed that he could masturbate without having impure thoughts - and what will be the harm in that?
Also, while our purpose on earth is to serve God, it does not mean that we should think about God (24/7). You may cite a verse about praising him while sitting, standing, etc - but it does not literally mean you have to remember Him in every single second of your life. Then again, if you feel that is what you think you must do, by all means, seclude yourself from worldly affair and just think about him.
The problem here is that you conclude that ALL type of masturbation is bad, when it should be assessed case by case basis, and as per individual. Unfortunately here, you already have pre-conceived views that masturbation is indecent, full stop. That all masturbation MUST include impure thoughts.
Those activities can very well be a complete waste of time if you decide to take it TOO far. If you spend 10 hours gaming, yes that's transgressing limits. Shopping for hours and hours is transgressing limits. Desires for materialistic things can be dangerous if they are too much (desires to obtain wealth, materials, status). When you study for your final exam, tell me, do you think about God as you memorise E=mc^2 (if you do physics anyway)? Anyway, at the same time, in moderation they can be good. Same case may apply with masturbation for some individuals, if they don't transgress limits. Blame not the tools, but how someone uses those tools.
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Thanks for your definition.
So, according to you, dirty thoughts = thoughts toward the direction of fornication
FYI, you can masturbate without thinking in the direction of fornication (or even without any sexual thoughts at all). I can do that and i'm sure there are other people who can do that. Using proper understanding of the human physiology, this can actually reduce the "thoughts toward the direction of fornication". No guilt involved. Not particularly my solution of choice, but still a valid choice which has to be respected without trying to instill guilt (i.e. interfering with other people's free-will).
Therefore, as per your own line of thinking, if your rejection to "masturbation" was based upon that idea of "dirty thoughts/...fornication", it can be countered simply by consciously not "thinking toward fornication" while masturbating. Next step is to acknowledge the possibilities on how to do that (if you so wish to expand your viewpoint on this matter).
One substance that i can take from your post, actually, is the keyword "addiction". Before that though, let's continue our little clarification process...
- Of course you never mentioned such a thing.
Correct. Thanks for acknowledging that fact.
You mentioned what came under the category
In order to bring your own attention to the act, you have to have a reason to think about it and the pleasure that you will receive.
You admitted that masturbation is for sexual pleasure,
keywords "pleasure" and "sexual pleasure"
Where did i say these in the posts you're responding to? (hint i said "sexual reasons"
Please clarify.
(This is not to say that i associate sexual pleasure with "dirty/devil". Far from it. It is just one form of pleasure humans can be grateful for.)