Proposal: A complete refutation to Sunnis.

[Andantino]

peace all,

The idea is a good one but like many projects it requires certain things for it to work. I have completed several projects in this area and have experience publishing also.

I would be happy to lead this project but it will require ACTUAL input, not talk.

First thing we need to do is get some structure to this work, then we can divide the work amongst us

1. list some of the key areas/subjects we will tackle - i.e. what are our strongest arguments against Traditional Islam

2. what are the most common arguments against 'Quran based islam' brought up by Traditional Muslims

Salam wakas )

1. the Sunnis and Shias believe in Hadith because of the Narrator, they believe the narrator such as Abu hurayra and other sahaba or tabi'in or whatever is capable enough to be fully trusted as a Righteous person. so i think we shud find some errors from their (narrator_ works and find some hadith that CLEARLY AGAINST THE QURAN as many as we can

2. Traditional Muslims oftenly used 'Obey Allah and Messenger' to be their strongest argument against Quranist. for full example, here is the good link from answering x http//www.answering-christianity.com/refutation_to_quranists.htm

3. History of Quran, wherever i try to find it, never satisfied me enough. therefore, we should bring some arguments about it.

[huruf]

I think such repository, classified and indexed is a good idea. It is a lot of work too.

As to have a refuting tool ready made, I think there should be clarity as to what is propounded.

Something I have detected in a lot of what goes on in the forum is to bundle all hadith as if it were a single unit. THEY ARE NOT. And I am not talking about they being authoritative or not, but simply as to content.

There are hadiths which are indiferent morally, and which the best objection to them would be what its significance is. Other hadith are not indiferent, they are directly repulsive, ugly, humilliating, insulting. And then there are hadiths which do have wisdom, bedeep or very deep wisdom. And then there are those which are really inspiring. We cannot just go and charge against hadith as a unit which it is not, as if they were the devil. We cannot fall in the same trap that others have fallen.

A different, completely different question is deriving doctrine or norms or rules from hadith. For individual and private use, one may derive whatever one wants from whatever one wants, for collective use or proposal, no, one cannot. The only normative book is Qur'an, no the bible, not hadith, not anything else. The qur'an itself encloses not very much normative stuff, in most religions, revelation is like that, more principles than myriad of rules. The myriad rules people add them after the fact.

I agree that the institutionalisation of any norm that is not in Qur'an is not permitted. That is the important point. It may inspire, it may make one think deeply, move to wisdom, but if it is not in the Qur'an it cannot bind anybody and should not be used to establish anyting as a rule on the principle that it is God's will or God's or the Prophet's word. It should be enough that their autenticity is not guranteed by God, therefore not guranteed at all.

Another thing of course, is whatever people, on their own authority, not God's authority or the Prophet's may want to propose. It is up to the people, but, please not hiding under the skirts of Go or the Prophet, astaghfirullah.

I say that those hadith that by content deserve respect should be respected, not acknowledged as authentic, because for that we do not have the support of Qur'an, but acknowledged as we acknowledge words of wisdom from other sources, be it the gospels, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, what is obviously wise, is wise, come from whomever.

Those hadith that do not deserve respect, should not get it, just because such stupidity got a pass in collections to joint other stuff that might be from quite a different nature. It is an insult. Le us just imagine for a moment that some writing of Rumi got collected in the same volume with some porno stuff of the most disgusting nature or with snuff stuf. It would be idiotic to confuse both because they come in the same lot. I think that is what the vested interest hadithers did buy their way putting the good with the filth. Now we are paying for their wins through that trick if in their time they did the bod good through misuse of the good, now we are making bad the good, because of their misuse.

And of course, whatever is done, let us not forget that people have hearts and specially sensitivity. We should be respectful of that and proceed with the good maners which are proper of honest people and honest reflecters.

Those and other basic principles should be born in mind, I think from the outset in order to have a good tool for morally sound purposes.

Salaam

[Wakas]

I think an index of articles/resources covering various issues is a good start.

[PixelAngelBaby]

Heyyy don't let this thread go dead! Im reviving it

I completely agree, it is a very good idea to conclude in one place with reliable references. I was merely pointing out that in order to reach out and with the help of Allah make even a single sunni question his own belief. Then the "place" he can find information should not be named "refutation" to Sunnis. It should also not label sunnism as a "sect" as the article on f-m you linked to.

It will only make people defensive from the start. The best way to make a person realize he is wrong is to give him the tools to realize it by himself. It seldom works if he is told by another he is wrong.

This is something I miss on the f-m........There are a lot of articles about how wrong sunnism/shia and hadiths are bad. If I was a sunni I would feel quite offended. There is not one article describing the QA muslim, how we look at islam and how we are able to live without hadith. If we can put together a piece like that it would a very good refutation against sunnis without even having told them that they are wrong.

This is true. A person who seeks knowledge in islam and goes to the local mosque will never be even close to hearing of AQ.

I completely agree. From my point of veiw, I would have loved to read a book about the history of Hadith, and highlight what is written in those tens of thick hadith and scholar books. Because the public don't get to read it. But yes that would take a long time. Baby steps..

I think an index of articles/resources covering various issues is a good start.

Yeah i was just going to say that we should start an outline already.

I think some things though that need addressing are Critical Thinking awareness, as well as how gullible it is to follow authority (imams and scholars) blindly. Remind the Muslim world of the importance of verification, and how the Quran commands us to be pious scholars.

Remember The Arrivals on youtube? It caused a wake up call towards criticizing governments and i think positively influenced people in that aspect. I wonder if it would be a good idea to take a spin on that pattern of thinking. I think there is hope developing in the Muslim world, due to the outbursts of protests and revolutions, even if steered. Many alternative sub cultures, thoughts, ideas, beliefs are starting to pop up, especially here in Egypt.

Critical thinking education is a must for anything that follows in this project. Otherwise you will be talking to walls.

Just a little side note I wish I could put flyers on mosques but I fear that the owners or other muslims might actually try to find out who put it there and be after me o.o

[Keri]

Peace to all, I just bumped at this forum today, found lots of valuable discussions and info and decided to register right away. I fully support the mission of bringing the truth of uncontaminated Quran to whose who are really serious about their faith, whether they are new converts or old muslims.

One of the sources that I found online was an article from another forum, which I simply copy/pasted after reading it and agreeing with its contents, hoping that it can contribute into the filling the void of ignorance in the midst of hadith followers. I am sure there are many of them who are sincere believers with the best intentions, its just that no one happen to show them the complete truth yet so they have to go with what they are fed.

This article is about a fraudulence of hadith narrations brought through one of their most avid contributors, Abu Huraira.
Please have a read and let me know how could we use this information for moving toward the goal outlined in the title of this thread.

'''''''''''''''''''
The first man who was unkind to him (i.e. to Abu Huraira) was the second Caliph, Umar Bin Khattab. Ibn Athir and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in his Sharhe-Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume III, page 104 (printed in Egypt), and several others have reported that after Caliph Umar appointed Abu Huraira governor of Bahrain in 21 A.H., the people informed the Caliph that Abu Huraira had amassed great wealth and had purchased many horses. Umar therefore deposed him in 23 A.H. As soon as Abu Huraira entered the court, the Caliph said "O enemy of Allah and enemy of His Book! Have you stolen Allah's property?" He replied, "I never committed theft, but the people have given me gifts."

Ibn Sa'ad in Tabaqat, Volume IV, page 90, Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Isaba, and Ibn Abd-e-Rabbih in Iqdu'l-Farid, Volume I, write that the Caliph said "'When I made you the governor of Bahrain, you had not even shoes on your feet, but now I have heard that you have purchased horses for 1,600 dinars. How did you acquire this wealth?' He replied, 'These were men's gifts which profit has multiplied much.' The Caliph's face grew red with anger, and he lashed him so violently that his back bled. Then he ordered the 10,000 dinars which Abu Huraira had collected in Bahrain be taken from him and deposited in the account of the Baitu'-Mal."

This was not the first time that Umar beat Abu Huraira. Muslim writes in his Sahih, Volume I, page 34, that during the time of the Prophet, Umar Bin Khattab beat Abu Huraira so severely that the latter fell down on the ground.

Ayesha once told urwa that are you not surprised by abu huraira that he came and started narrating ahadeeth from holy prophet asws while sitting near my home; and I was listening that, I was offering prayers then but he left before I could finish my prayers; had I found him I would have told him that holy prophet asws never narrated ahadeeth like he was narrating

REFERENCES-

1- musnad imam ahmad, urdu, vol 11, page 237-238, narration 25377 [translator has mentioned that it has been authenticated in sahih al bukhari (356;; sahih al muslim (2493);; ibn haban (100 and 7153)
2- musnad imam ahmad, urdu, vol 11, page 339-340, narration 25754

Muslim in his Saheeh in Volume 1, writes that during the time of the Prophet (PBUH) Umar bin Khattab beat Abu Hurairah for fabricating lies.

In Volume 2 of Saheeh Muslim, he quotes Aa'ishah as" Abu Hurairah is a great liar who fabricates Ahaadeeth and attributes them to the holy Prophet (PBUH).

In Volume 4 of Saheeh Muslim, Nadwi says "Imam Abu Hanifa said, 'The companions of the Prophet (PBUH) were generally pious and just. I accept every Ahaadeeth narrated by them, but I do not accept the Ahaadeeth whose source is Abu Hurairah, Anas ibn Malik, or Samra bin Jundab."

http//muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2420.0;wap2

Abu Hurairah or 'Paul'

Zeynab
Ever heard of that name, Paul, in connection with the New Testament?

Paul (or Saul of Tarsus) was a pharisee and a very controversial person. He belonged to Tarsus in the Eastern Roman Empire (probably Greece). It is said that he lived during the time of Jesus, possibly born between 3 to 5 B.C. but no one knows his exact date of birth. Paul persecuted the Jews and Christians for long time and then suspiciously converted to Christianity after reportedly seeing a "dream." Then, somehow, his name changed from Saul to 'Paul' and he literally became the founder of an altered version of Christianity, the one practiced today by the Christians. Paul is regarded as the most important interpreter of Jesus' mission. The gossip goes that he explained in a way that Jesus himself didn't. Paul claimed that he was commissioned by Jesus to preach Christianity. But Christians today openly acknowledge that other than Paul's own claim that he was commissioned by Jesus, there is no proof at all that he was. In fact, majority of the Christian sources are of the firm opinion that Paul never even saw or met Jesus. Yet, every word of his was considered law and he was never questioned nor required to prove his credibility concerning whatever he claimed. He lay the foundation of altered Christianity. He began being recognized as the most important source of Christian laws which had nothing to do with the original Faith as preached by Jesus, son of Virgin Mary. We can well imagine how many Christians have so far deviated from their true roots in preference to the phoney stories and whispers of this man, in the name of faith.

Unfortunately, history was to repeat itself. The Muslims have a duplicate of "Paul" named Abu Hurairah. He is the master of the Hadith literature (which is the counterpart of the altered Christian & Jewish Bibles), having narrated the largest number of Hadith narrations by spending the least number of years in the company of Prophet Muhammad (SAAW) in Medinah.

In his own words "There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdallah bin Amr (bin al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same." Narrated Abu Huraira (Hadith No.1.113).

Apart from the nonsensical contents of Abu Hurairah's narrations, uptil today hardly any naive Muslim has raised the question that how could a man who spent barely a couple of years as the Prophet's contemporary have narrated many more Ahadith than even the Prophet's closest family members and friends?

Stories of his being a "close companion" of the Prophet (SAAW) have just one source - Abu Hurairah himself. Other than that, there's no evidence to indicate that Abu Hurairah had any connections with the Prophet (SAAW) at all, let alone being a "close companion."

Shiias consider Abu Hurairah thoroughly unreliable. They only accept his narrations if a similar Hadith is narrated by some member of the Prophet's family.

However, don't forget, Hadith is Hadith. Whether it be a Sunni Hadith or Shiia Hadith, the entire Hadith institution is tainted with deep suspicion and controversy.

WHO DISLIKED ABU HURAIRAH AND WHO WERE HIS FRIENDS?

Abd-al-Rehman (kunya 'Abu Hurairah&#039 was disliked by Umar bin Khattab, the second righteous Caliph (RA). Umar bin Khattab was very upset at his habit of narrating false Ahadith in the name of the Prophet (SAAW) and threatened to exile him if he didn't stop. That frightened him and he stopped for a while. But after the tragic assasination of Umar, Abu Hurairah resumed his mischief and was greatly encouraged by the first Ommayad ruler, Muawiyah and then his son, Yazid.

In particular, Abu Hurairah is supposed to have hated Aisha (RA). It is a matter of record that he made up several Hadiths that Aisha directly rejected. His hatred of her was primarily based on his fear. Aisha, being the Prophet's (SAAW) wife, was in a very favorable position to catch Abu Hurairah's tricks and she is reported to have confronted him several times.

Every bit of historical data indicates that Abu Hurairah was a very close friend of Muawiyah bin Abu Sufyan, the first Ommayad Caliph. Let's not forget, during the lifetime of the Prophet (SAAW), Muawiyah's father, Abu Sufiyan, was the pagan leader of Qureysh in Makkah and a staunch enemy of Islam. He and his family embraced Islam, not out of love, but for better political opportunities after the conquest of Makkah. Muawiyah was an ambitious and clever man who never got hung up on ethics. After the assasination of Imam Ali when the old rivalry of Banu Hashim and Banu Ommayah was fully revived, Muawiyah desperately wanted to grab power and he wanted it to remain within his family .. reminiscent of the days when his father was the chief of Qureysh until the fall of Makkah. Yazid, who was the son of Muawiyah, was born of Muawiyah's Christian wife.

Abu Hurairah's priority was to include himself with the elites. When the Muslims won the battle of Khyber, he supported them. Prior to that, when the Jews populated Khyber, Abu Hurairah was fascinated by the Jewish elites of Khyber and sought their company.

At the start of the Ommayad rule, Abu Hurairah lived in Muawiyah's royal palace and served him including his political views. During Muawiyah's rule, Abu Hurairah constructed many Ahadith which supported the idea that the Imam or Khalifa must be obeyed like God. Many of the Hadiths that were narrated by Abu Hurairah contradict other hadiths including his own, contradict the Quran, contradict the Prophet's exemplary character and contradict common sense.

FOR HOW LONG WAS ABU HURAIRAH THE PROPHET'S (SAAW) CONTEMPORARY?

Abu Hurairah spent LESS than three years in al-Medinah during the lifetime of the Prophet about which Huraira himself testifies in one of his narrations "I enjoyed the company of Allah's Apostle for three years." (Volume 004, Book 056, Hadith Number 789).

After less than three years with the Prophet (SAAW), he kept his Hadith narrations to the minimal during the era of the four righteous Caliphs - Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman and Ali. Abu Hurairah's Hadith narrations started in full swing from the reign of Muawiyah bin Abu Sufyan. This was more than 30 years after the death of the Prophet (SAAW). Logically, this would mean that Abu Huraira kept almost 40,000 Hadith narrations secretly in his mind until the Ommayads came to power. There is also a very important historical report which discloses that Abu Hurairah was asked much later in life, of the consequences if he had narrated that many Hadiths in the days of Caliph Umar bin Khattab? He replied that he wouldn't dare to, and if he had, he would have been given a beating.

Now listen to this! Abu Hurairah is supposed to have narrated some 40,000 traditions during his lifetime. Dividing such a number to (less than) three years of his so-called companionship with the Prophet (SAAW) would result in 40 traditions per day .. which is humanly impossible!!!

ABU HURAIRAH'S JEWISH CONNECTIONS

Another myth that circulates in some segments of the Sunni community is the claim that Abu Hurairah was one of the "sahabahs" present during the Treaty of Hudaybiah. Not true at all. Abu Hurairah had not even converted to Islam at the time of the Treaty of Hudaybiah. Most likely, he had not even arrived in Medinah from his native country, Yemen, at that time. He was not among those sahabahs who witnessed the pledge of Hudaybiah for sure.

Prior to his conversion to Islam, Abu Hurairah was a Jew, though the official story states that he was pagan. He converted to Islam on the day the Muslims won the Battle of Khyber on the 7th year of Hijrah, which was one year after the pledge of Hudaibyiah. The pledge of Hudaybiah took place on the 6th year of the Hijrah. The battle of Khyber was a turning point in the defeat of the Jews of the Hejaz region and a great victory for Islam. On the day of Khyber when Abu Hurairah decided to convert to Islam, his wife, Hind, asked him why he was converting. He replied that he had no other choice but to take revenge in this manner. As a result, he was the Prophet's contemporary for less than 3 years and made a factory in his head to produce over 40,000 Hadiths !! And still the stupid 'Muslims' of today cannot catch the guile of their "Paul."

Abu Hurairah borrowed several of his narrations from Kaab Al Ahbar. Kaab was a Jewish convert who tried to explain the Quran by using the corrupted books of the Jews. He produced some of the most outrageous Hadiths that plainly contradict Quranic principles, taken from false stories in the Torah. Prior to becoming a Muslim, Kaab al-Ahbar was a prominent Yemeni rabbi, and a friend and teacher of Abu Huraira. He came to Medina and converted to Islam during the Caliphate of Umar bin Khattab. Kaab had never met the Prophet (SAAW).

Abu Hurairah and Abdullah Ibn Amr al-Aas (another narrator of false Hadiths) were both students of Kaab. It is also reported that Abdullah Ibn Amr acquired a big pile of books from the Jews and Christians and used it for giving information to Muslims. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, who is the foremost authority on the Hadith of Sahih al-Bukhari, said "Because of this (as mentioned above ) many prominent scholars among the students of the companions of the Prophet ( SAAW ) avoided taking information from Abdullah Ibn Amr al-Aas." But obvioulsy that didn't help. Abu Hurairah was also a student of Kaab and far from being avoided, he became "Paul" for the so-called Muslims.

HIS GREED

Abu Hurairah came from a poor family. After he converted to Islam, he would often ask people to recite a verse of the Quran, not because he loved hearing the Quran, but to impress the person who recited it, with the hope of getting an invitation for a meal. In one of Abu Hurairah's own narrations, the above information popped out straight from the horse's mouth

"I used to accompany Allah's Apostle to fill my stomach; and that was when I did not eat baked bread, nor wear silk. Neither a male nor a female slave used to serve me, and I used to bind stones over my belly and ask somebody to recite a Quranic Verse for me though I knew it, so that he might take me to his house and feed me." (Book #65, Hadith #343)

Also, in the above Hadith, Abu Hurairah admits that his purpose of accompanying the Prophet was not loyalty or love but to fulfil his own needs.

HIS POVERTY TURNED ABU HURAIRAH INTO A GREEDY THIEF

After Caliph Umar appointed Abu Huraira as governor of Bahrain in 21 A.H., the people informed the Caliph that Abu Huraira had amassed great wealth and had purchased many horses. Umar therefore deposed him in 23 A.H. As soon as Abu Huraira entered the court, the Caliph said "O enemy of Allah and enemy of His Book! Have you stolen Allah's Property?" He replied, "I never committed theft but the people have given me gifts." the Caliph said "When I made you the governor of Bahrain, you had not even shoes on your feet, but now I have heard that you have purchased horses for 1,600 dinars. How did you acquire this wealth?" He replied, 'These were men's gifts which profit has multiplied much.' The Caliph's face grew red with anger, and he lashed him so furiously that his back bled. Then he ordered the 10,000 dinars which Abu Huraira had collected in Bahrain be taken from him and deposited in the account of the Baitu'-Mal. (Reference Ibn Sa'ad in Tabaqat, Volume IV, page 90, Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Isaba, and Ibn Abd-e-Rabbih in Iqdu'l-Farid, Volume I).

AN EXCERPT FROM AL-ISLAM.ORG WORTH READING

QUOTE
"Interesting point is that there is NO single hadith narrated by
others as the merit of Abu Huraira. If you search the whole Bukhari
and Muslim collections as the merit of Abu Huraira, whatever hadith you see about his companionship with the Prophet SAWS, and his so-called knowledge is narrated by him ALONE without a single witness. This is a clear violation on the basis of which, even according to Hadith followers, all of Abu Huraira's narrations lose their credibility. For example, there are narrations of him which say "I was a good boy, I did this and that." Now ask yourself, will you accept the testimony of a person in a court of law saying that he is a good boy with no evidence or witness to support it?

Futhermore, we do not hear that Abu Huraira was a man with a SUPER memory before he arrived in Medinah. Suddenly comes to Medinah, meets the Prophet (SAWS), spends hardly three years as the Prophet's contemporary and can remember EVERYTHING by some MAGICAL power.

This man's super memory came into existence after the Prophet's death when suddenly from a PC XT type brain his mind became like a 486/33MHz with a CD-ROM built in with the entire encyclopaedia of Hadith. ANY subject, ANY time, he would recall something that no one else knew or had heard of before."
UNQUOTE

How relentlessly the intelligence of Hadith readers has been insulted!

"PAUL'S" MISSION

Please note, by questioning the baloney which Abu Hurairah was spewing, the purpose is NOT to make light of either the Sunnis or the Shiias. The entire Hadith institution of both Sunnis and Shiias is in a pathetic condition!! But regarding this man, Abu Hurairah, he was using his BRIEF time as the Prophet's (SAAW) contemporary for PERSONAL gain. After the death of the Prophet (SAAW) and the four Caliphs, Abu Hurairah gained influence and whenever some issue arose that required an opinion, he came up with some 'HADITH' he SUDDENLY FULLY REMEMEBRED.

AS BELIEVERS WE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO CANONIZE THE "SAHABAHS"

Something important which the Muslims have never realized, there is nothing 'holy' about the personalities of the sahabahs, in particular Abu Hurairah, that should prevent us from searching for the truth to investigate their narrations. The sahabahs were human beings capable of erring. No one is above the Quran. No matter who narrates what, and regardless of the so-called 'isnad,' if the contents of any narration does not conform with the Quran, that narratiion must be trashed. Period!

Abu Hurairah doesn't need to be investigated. He has himself made it abundantly clear that his obsession for narrating Hadith was for purely personal gain and with political motives. Instead of questioning the intent of a reader who has been wise enough not to get fooled by this deception, believers should heed their warnings and be wary.

CONCLUSION

IN PARTICULAR, be very careful when the name of 'Abu-Hurairah' appears in any Hadith. Apart from the fact that he was most untruthful, he too has been 'betrayed' by many hypocrites of his own kind who have produced various Hadiths in his name - falsehood built upon a foundation of falsehood!

Abu Hurairah is reported to have died in 681 A.D., at the age of 78, after achieving his goal of distorting Islam as much as he could .. a promise he made to himself the day he converted to Islam at Khyber.

Something to rememebr
All books, except the Glorious Quran, will contain some forgery or discrepancy. That's because, the Glorious Quran is the only Book that is protected by Allah Almighty on a "guarded tablet" (Lawh-i-Mahfuz). And this Final Message of Allah is fully detailed, complete and a STANDALONE BOOK. All praise be to Allah Azza wa Jal.

"Nay, but it is a Glorious Qur'an. On a guarded tablet." (8521-22)

"And speak not, concerning that which your own tongues qualify (as clean or unclean), the falsehood "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so that you invent a lie against Allah. Lo! those who invent a lie against Allah will not succeed. A brief enjoyment (will be theirs); and theirs a painful doom." 16116-117 - Glorious Quran (Surah An Nahl)

This post is in continuation of a previous one titled Abu Hurayrah and the shaping of traditional Islam

Heba
Subhan'Allah, nothing sounds better than truth. Like his hadith narrtions, his biography is also filled with contradictions. His biography written by Sunnis claim that he became Muslim through the chief of his tribe, Tufail bin Amr, in Yemen and then came to visit the Prophet in Makkah (well before Hijrah) and he was re-named Abd-al-Rahman (his kunya remained Abu Hurayrah). They say that then he went back to Yemen and stayed there for several years and then again returned to Medina after the Prophet had migrated there. This information is totally unsupported by evidence. If we read the Prophet's biography, there's no mention of the names of any hadith narrtors (Hurayrah included) during the Makkan period. For that matter, even in the Medina period, biographies of the Prophet written by serious historians haven't mentioned the names of any of those people such as Abu Hurayrah, Abu Darda, Anas ibn Malik, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Abu Said al-Khudri etc.

It should also be mentioned that during the time of the Ommayads and Abbasids when Abu Hurairah was on top of the world (because these were the rulers who befriended him), he narrated many rubbish hadiths in which he insulted Imam Ali and his family (for political purposes of course) and over the years such narrations only worsened the animosity between the Sunnis and Shiias by deepening the sectarain divide. A historian illustrates the undiscerning view of Sunnis in regard to Abu Hurairah's hadiths "One hadith narrated by Abu Hurayra was once mentioned in the presence of Haroun al-Rasheed. It said, 'Moses met Adam once whereupon he asked him, Are you the one who had us dismissed from Paradise?' A man from Quraysh who was present then asked, "When did Adam meet Moses?!" Al-Rasheed became very angry and said, "Saying too much and the sword go hand in hand; kill this atheist who doubts the hadith of the Messenger of Allah." Now, such stuff match perfectly with the practice of giving absolute authority to the khalifah who can put to death anyone he wants for any reason.

Also, I would add the name of Wahab bin Munaba and Hammam bin Munaba in this episode. They were students of Abu Hurayrah (can u now imagine the outcome!) Walkingguy (Hadither) blog writes "It is reported that Abbu Huraira also compiled many booklets of hadith but most of them were lost. Just one was left that is narrated by one of the students of Abbu Huraira RA, whose name was Hamman bin Munabba. This booklet is known by his name." Then comes the talk about Maghazi. Maghazi refers to compilations of events of war in which the Prophet participated. In other words, this collection was largely another source of made-up tales. It started being compiled during the reign of the Ommayad ruler, Omer bin AbdulAziz. But as in the case of Hadith, about Maghazi, the "scholars" also say that early compilations existed from before but many were lost. They say such stuff because they know that just as there's no evidence to say that they didn't exist in the early days, similarly there's no evidence to say that they did exist. Thus, the ulemas take advantage of this lack of information to say what they like. Wahab bin Munaba was one of the many persons who's said to have compiled a Maghazi. The intricate complications injected to disfigure Islam by the so-called sahabas, imams and ulemas starting from 30 years after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) is sad and unfortunate.

Thus, along with the name of Ka'ab Al-Ahbar, the Jewish rabbi and teacher of Abu Hurayrah, comes the names of Wahab and Hammam bin Munaba - this makes the lethal triangle which I put up in Hadith Statistics post. Ka'ab was a Yemeni Jew who converted into a so-called Muslim during the Caliphate of Umer bin Khattab. His student was Abu Hurayrah and Abdullah bin Amr al-Aas. And Abu Hurayrah's student was Hammam bin Munaba and Wahab bin Munaba.

Ka'ab Al Ahbar ---> Abu Hurayrah + Abdullah bin Amr al-Aas ---> Hammam and Wahab Munaba

This triangle was more lethal than the Bermuda triangle.

[JavaLatte]

Peace.
Welcome sister/brother Keri. welcome

? ? W E L C O M E ? ?

And thank you for sharing the article!

I don't like Abu Hurairah and his thousands garbage. But I'm still not sure if he was a real person or just a pseudonym used by a group of fraudsters.

May Allah guard and guide us to the straight path. pr

Peace.

[Keri]

Peace.
Welcome sister/brother Keri. welcome

W E L C O M E

And thank you for sharing the article!

I don't like Abu Hurairah and his thousands garbage. But I'm still not sure if he was a real person or just a pseudonym used by a group of fraudsters.

May Allah guard and guide us to the straight path. pr

Peace.

Salam Javalatte, and thank you for warm welcome!

It could be very well that he was a fictitious personality. Lies and blasphemy of his narrations are outrageous and I now see what it meant in Quran when Allah said that he would mislead those who are disregarding His word, so that they stumble and perish on their own ways.

I also think it could be a good idea to open some Facebook fan page or group for people who uphold Quran and want to destroy modern heresies that crept into Islam.

Salam to you!

P.S>
I'm guy by the way.

[JavaLatte]

Salaam brother Keri.

It could be very well that he was a fictitious personality. Lies and blasphemy of his narrations are outrageous and I now see what it meant in Quran when Allah said that he would mislead those who are disregarding His word, so that they stumble and perish on their own ways.

Blue Well said. Indeed. )

Green Do you refer to verses such as 639 and 16104 ?

Or is there more specific verses mention about that (underline words)?

I also think it could be a good idea to open some Facebook fan page or group for people who uphold Quran and want to destroy modern heresies that crept into Islam.

I think there are already some groups sounds like that (but I still not join those groups).

Have you ever seen these?

https//www.facebook.com/groups/258108390968189/

https//www.facebook.com/groups/101251673309766/

I see these groups more like place to share information than place for discussion. However, a kind of short or brief discussion seems happen when members put questions over there.

[Keri]

Salaam brother Keri.
Blue Well said. Indeed.
Green Do you refer to verses such as 639 and 16104 ?
Or is there more specific verses mention about that (underline words)?

I think there are already some groups sounds like that (but I still not join those groups).
Have you ever seen these?
https//www.facebook.com/groups/258108390968189/
https//www.facebook.com/groups/101251673309766/
I see these groups more like place to share information than place for discussion. However, a kind of short or brief discussion seems happen when members put questions over there.

Thanks Javalatte,
sorry I havent replied earlier, and thank you for FB links I sent join request.

ANd yes you mentioned right verses, and there are few more which I can't just now remember but they are quite a few of this kind in Quran.

Salam wa barakatuh!

[Existential1]

I'm gonna bust a JavaLatte and go for the double resurrection.

How is this project going? Did it stall? What needs to be done to finish it if it did stall?

peace

[FreedomStands]

Peace all,

I would like to propose a community project that will not only help unite us, but bring others back onto the path of true Islam.

Sunni is the largest sect of Islam in the world. I propose we all research and compile a book addressing every single claim of the Sunnis and directly refute them.

As Martin Luther went around and tacked his 99 Thesis to the door of every church he could, we too must take initiative and bring our finished product to every doorstep and outlet we can.

As far as topics, we leave no stone unturned - Bukhari, Muslim, the claimed science behind the hadith, Shariah, the pillars, Qur'anic aspects, etc.

Qur'an Alone Muslims are still defined as a cult under Rashad Khalifa - to be taken seriously we must unite and put forth a single doctrine. For every subject we attack, we provide an answer that is universally agreed upon. Let's take back Islam!

Who's with me? yay

Just spam stuff about the Qur'an everywhere, spam Qur'an quotes online, say there are some people who believe in what the Qur'an says but don't follow the Hadith or believe in it.

Not a single person will be changed by any of those efforts, but at least the Qur'an will be all over the place to annoy people.

[Timotheus]

i think that if people want to believe they will, if they dont it does not matter what proof you show them they will not believe.

[Taro_Hiroshi]

Hi brothers and sisters,

This is a special post. I'd like to share some of my personal thoughts and views with you. But first, I'd like to share some of my thoughts and views regarding the OP's project.

I think this is a great project. It's a very practical/pragmatic project, in my opinion. I think this project can yield great results. But since this project is gargantuan, I think it will be a herculean task to accomplish. In order to bring this project to fruition, I think several persons must collaborate on it. For example, if several persons cooperate/collaborate on this project, and each chooses/specializes in one/few fields, and then put in the right amount of effort, then I think this project will be accomplished/finished in less than 2 years.

Personally, I am willing to work with everyone, probably all members on this forum in regard to spreading the message of Al-Quran in the future. If the truth be told, I have just been in touch with a few members on this forum until now. And I have never met anyone from this forum in real life. Since I returned to this forum in 2013, I have kept my distance from some people in the online Quranic community. The reason why I did that, is because I wasn't sure who to trust. I wasn't sure who is honest and trustworthy/sincere. It seemed that certain members on this forum tried to make a comparison or compete with me. And it seemed that certain members judged me without knowing me. Therefore, I became very cautious and skeptical. And perhaps a little cynical and pessimistic. So I kept my distance from some people in the online Quranic community. Also, I felt that certain members misinterpreted my intentions on writing posts on this forum. If the truth be told, I haven't written any posts on this forum to show-off. I am passionate about islam. That's all. I just want to share my passion with other people who are interested in learning about islam/quran. This is something I love to do. This is something I want to do forever. I am just a student of Al-Quran, like everyone else here. I don't believe I have all the answers. As a matter of fact, I think I know very little in regard to "islam based on the Quran." Because there is so much to know, so much to explore, so much to learn and so much to discover. I sincerely believe that all of us can teach something to each other and learn something from each other. I swear to the God (wallahi).

As I have mentioned earlier, I felt that certain members misinterpreted my intentions on writing posts on this forum. Therefore, I have only felt comfortable keeping in touch (corresponding) with a few members on this forum. The reason why I only felt comfortable keeping in touch with a few members on this forum, is because I felt that they knew my intentions. But I guess I could have been more tolerant and open-minded. It seems that people sometimes build walls between each other that never existed before they started to build them. These walls don't need to exist, in my opinion. And some of these walls are based on culture/tradition, not on Al-Quran. I think it's unecessary to build such walls. I think people have the choice to build walls or build bridges between each other. What people choose to build seems to be based on their open-mindedness, their flexibility, their patience, their humility and their level of tolerance.

As I have mentioned earlier, I am passionate about islam. And my aim/objective is to spread the message of Al-Quran to others. I want to help others. I want to show others how wonderful/beautiful, powerful and life-changing the message of Al-Quran is. I want to do this before I leave the earth. I want to do this while I am here on the earth. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the world have bad/negative perceptions about islam/Quran. There is an "information war" out there. But I believe we are wery lucky to live in the "information age." Because the internet enables us to spread the message of Al-Quran to others and educate them about "islam based on the Quran." This life is short, in my opinion. And I think this life is just a test. Therefore, I think it's very important to help as many people as one can (do as many good deeds as possible) before one leaves the earth. I believe all of us can make a difference in the world.

The internet enables us to reach as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time. I think if we spread the message of Al-Quran to others, we can change the course of history. If we use Al-Quran as our criterion, we can expose many myths and correct widespread misinformation and misconceptions about islam/quran. It seems that Al-Quran is the most powerful tool we can use. History suggests that before the advent of islam, the arabs had a primitive and backwards social order. And ignorance was widespread. But after they received the revelations of the God, their whole society was transformed. During the golden age of islam, arabs became the most advanced, most civilized, most cultured and most enlightened group of all the people. Al-Quran is so powerful that it's message transformed the arab world completely. It was the message of Al-Quran that gave birth to the first golden age. Hence, if the message of Al-Quran is spread to a wide audience around the world, a second golden age might emerge. If all of us spread the message of Al-Quran to others, we can accelerate the process of change and perhaps be witness to a new golden age in our era.

When I was a child, I wondered why there is so much injustice in the world. I couldn't understand why some nations went to war with each other. I couldn't understand why there was so much poverty in the world. When I was a youth, I wanted to know the meaning of life and why we were put here on earth. I liked to increase my knowledge. But I didn't actively seek for the truth. I remember that there was an emptiness inside of me. An emptiness that I tried to fill with Alchohol and other material objects/things. But my emptiness wouldn't dissappear. Only the God could answer my prayers. But at that time, I didn't care. My emptiness was like a bottle with a hole at the bottom. A bottle with a hole at the bottom will remain empty, even if you fill it with lots of water. I guess was living in darkness. I guess was lost. The devil had led me astray. But one day, I prayed to God to show me the way. Before I knew it, I found "islam based on the Quran." And I have been passionate about islam ever since.

Until now I have worked alone (not collaborated with others) when it comes to spreading the message of Al-Quran. I like to work alone in regard to spreading the message of Al-Quran. Because I don't like "group think" or giving away my control to others. I prefer to have creative control on my work. That being said, I think it's a good thing that we can come together and collaborate on spreading the message of Al-Quran. So I'd like to work/collaborate with others in regard to spreading the message of Al-Quran in the future. I firmly believe in the strength/power of teamwork. Due to time-constraints, I am not able to seriously get involved in Quranic projects/causes these days. But I am definitely open to the idea of collaborating/cooperating seriously on Quranic projects/causes with fellow muslims in the future. I think one can spread the message of Al-Quran more effectively and further, by cooperating/collaborating with others. As a saying goes, "two heads are better than one."

If any of you are involved in Quranic projects/causes these days, and if there is anything I can do for you in regards to your projects/causes (e.g. give feedback) on islam/quran, don't hesitate to contact me. You can contact me whenever you want and I will answer your message as soon as I get some spare time. I firmly believe all of us can learn from each others thoughts, views and experience in regard to spreading the message of Al-Quran. In my view, even the most wise men need counsel from others from time to time. Because no one knows everything. In other words, no one is all-knowing. Therefore, it seems to be an intelligent decision to get counsel from others.

My dear brothers and sisters, I am planning to organize an event in the future (in due time). I want to invite people from the online Quranic community. I'd like to organize such an event in order to meet fellow muslims/mumins from the online Quranic community and talk about projects/causes (related to islam/quran), betterment (good/righteous works), business opportunities and last but not least to make/create and cultivate friendships. I love sports (particularly soccer). So I love to play soccer. I think it would be fun to play soccer with fellow muslims/mumins from the online Quranic community in the future. Also, I think it would fun to go to a cafe/restaurant with fellow muslims/mumins and watch a hollywood movie afterwards.

By the way, if anyone gets this Quranic project/cause off the ground, I'd be willing to help. But I can only help a little initially. Because my time is limited these days. Anyway, if anyone gets this Quranic project/cause off the ground and needs some help, feel free to contact me (by sending me a personal message).

[JavaLatte]

I think it would be fun to play soccer with fellow muslims/mumins from the online Quranic community in the future. Also, I think it would fun to go to a cafe/restaurant with fellow muslims/mumins and watch a hollywood movie afterwards.

That sounds like a good idea, Hiroshi.

I like it, except the red part? (=_=)-c<~o~)

Peace.

[Wakas]

One big problem with projects is people love to talk rather than do actual work.

For example, a simple thing that could have been done but wasn't, was make a list of Quran based islam resources we could use
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602369.msg321144#msg321144

[Taro_Hiroshi]

Peace Wakas and everyone else,

One big problem with projects is people love to talk rather than do actual work.

For example, a simple thing that could have been done but wasn't, was make a list of Quran based islam resources we could use
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602369.msg321144#msg321144

I think that's a good idea. That being said, I think before we make a list of Quran based islam resources, it would be prudent to do the following

1. Make a list of arguments against "islam based on Al-Quran." Then refute them one by one by using Al-Quran and historical facts.
   I will get the ball rolling by sharing some arguments against "islam based on Al-Quran."

Some arguments against "islam based on Al-Quran."

• Early muslims didn't follow "islam based on Al-Quran."
• Sects are allowed/endorsed by Al-Quran.
• Extra-quranic Sharia (Islamic law) is endorsed/supported by Al-Quran.
• Verses in Al-Quran have been abrograted.
• There is no detailed information about Salat, Zakat, Hajj and Qibla in Al-Quran.
• Obey God means obey the messenger.
• Muhammed received extra-quranic revelation (wahy).
• Muhammed is the teacher of Al-Quran.
• Muhammed's explanations of Al-Quran to his people were timeless.
• Muhammed was better than all the other messengers.
• Al-Quran is not complete and detailed.
• The word Dua in Al-Quran doesn't refer to prayer.
• The word Hikma (wisdom) in Al-Quran refers to the Sunna of Muhammed.
• The word Sunna in Al-Quran refers to the Sunna of Muhammed.
• Al-Quran is not a Hadith.
• Al-Quran encourages muslims to follow extra-quranic revelation (wahy).
• Al-Quran endorses/supports hadiths that are attributed to Muhammed.
• Without Hadith we have no information about the life of Muhammed.

2. Make a list of the teachings/laws/commandments of "Islam based on Al-Quran", and compare the teachings/laws/commandments of "islam based on Al-Quran" with the teachings/laws/commandments of traditional islam (sunni). By making a comparison between the teachings/laws/commandments of "islam based on Al-Quran" and the teachings/laws/commandments of "tradtional islam", we can show traditional muslims that "islam based on Al-Quran" is compatible with logic/reason/rationality, science, pluralism, human rights and women rights. This might convince many of them to follow "islam based on Al-Quran."

Some excellent resources we can use

• An article by Layth. The title of the article is "God alone." In his article, he makes a comparison between islam based on Al-Quran and Sunni and Shia.
• A book by Edip. The title of the book is "Manifest for Islamic Reform."

[Taro_Hiroshi]

Although OP's project is a great project, I think there are many other great projects too. There are certainly many ways to spread the message of Al-Quran to others. For example, there are many people and some organizations that have portrayed islam and Al-Quran in a bad light. They have spread a lot of misinformation, misconceptions and myths about islam and Al-Quran. I think it would be prudent to refute their arguments. In my view, a great way to refute their arguments is by writing articles/essays and/or books and share them on a blog/website. I also think it's prudent to refute their arguments by engaging in debates/discussions online. I think it's a good idea to spread the message of Al-Quran to others in several ways and in several places. With that said, having scattered focus is detrimental. As a saying goes, "The Jack of all trades, master of none."

I believe it's critical to have a clear purpose before one decides to start a Quranic project ? whether it's OP's project or another project. Why? Because if you don't, you will most likely get bad results. You have to know exactly what you want to accomplish with your project. Because next to effort, your purpose will determine your results. If your purpose is unclear, you will be like an archer who tries to hit a shooting target in a dark night. No matter how skillful you are, you will most likely miss your target. Hence, you need to have a clear purpose. A clear purpose is pivotal to a successful project.

I believe it's critical to implement the principles/values of Al-Quran in one's life. But I think I have a far way to go in regard to doing this. For example, I haven't spread the message of Al-Quran to others as much as I should have done or could have done. Although I have tried to spread the message of Al-Quran to others the last few years, I have only reached a few of my objectives/aims. It appears that if one forgets ones true purpose in life, one will get sidetracked/distracted by things that have nothing to do with ones true purpose. From my understanding of Al-Quran, this divine/sacred book suggests that one should strive in the cause of the God, not in ones own cause. For example, if you strive in the cause of a political party, then you will use your time to spread the message of that political party to others. But if you use your time to spread the message of another political party instead, then you are no longer striving in the cause of your own political party. Right? From my understanding of Al-Quran, if one spreads the message of this divine/sacred book to others, then one is striving in the cause of the God. Having said that, striving in the cause of the God seems to take many other forms (e.g. being unselfish/generous and striving for peace, justice and equality).

Al-Quran suggests that the messengers of the God, spread the message of the God to their people. And they didn't ask their people for any reward at all (690, 10 72, 1129, 2457, 3621 etc.). From my understanding of Al-Quran, the messengers of the God were examples for us to learn from. In my lifetime, I have seen many people who speak highly of the messengers of the God. But in my lifetime, I haven't seen many people who encourage us to do what they did (i.e. spread the message of the God to others). In my view, by spreading the message of Al-Quran to others, one spreads the message of the God to others. Because Al-Quran contains the message of the God.

From my experience, one of the hardest things in life is to serve only the God. It appears that one of the biggest pitfalls in the quest to truth, is to follow one's selfish purposes aka personal desires. Paradoxically, it seems that the more one strives in the cause of the God, the more one furthers one's own cause (477). Therefore, I think it's for one's own good to spread the message of Al-Quran to others.

Last but not least, there are several verses in Al-Quran which encourages muslims/mumins to spread the message of this divine/sacred book to others (379, 16125, 2551-52, 4133, 427).

[Wakas]

peace TH,

Making a list of arguments against Quranic islam is fine, and thanks for making a start to such a list, but in order to refute them we would be drawing on resources/arguments/etc (from Quran based islam websites/articles/resources) thus linking to them initially is helpful. And the good thing about this its easy to do. Anyone who knows of websites, just paste the link.

In terms of spreading the message, the following are great and already available

www.AreYouMuslim.com (some non-Muslims even find this fun/interesting)

www.Learn-About-Islam.com (even has printout flyers, mainly for non-Muslims)

Print out the Study Quran leaflets and stick up in Mosques, where Muslims gather etc. No-one is going to object to that. Really simple to do.

[Taro_Hiroshi]

Peace Wakas,

I agree with your views.

[Comrox]

peace TH,

Making a list of arguments against Quranic islam is fine, and thanks for making a start to such a list, but in order to refute them we would be drawing on resources/arguments/etc (from Quran based islam websites/articles/resources) thus linking to them initially is helpful. And the good thing about this its easy to do. Anyone who knows of websites, just paste the link.

In terms of spreading the message, the following are great and already available

www.AreYouMuslim.com (some non-Muslims even find this fun/interesting)

www.Learn-About-Islam.com (even has printout flyers, mainly for non-Muslims)

Print out the Study Quran leaflets and stick up in Mosques, where Muslims gather etc. No-one is going to object to that. Really simple to do.

The quiz was fun - I love quizzes. )