Use of 2nd person masculine singular in Arabic: can it be a generic reference?
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A Guide is the one who is in possession of the road map to destination. He guides only with the help of the Road Map-the Book revealed and communicated to him.
...and what exactly are you inferring?
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...and what exactly are you inferring?
...and what exactly are you inferring?
The Book is the guide, in time and space and not other conjectural stories attributed to the Guide.
Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam pronounced "And this Qur'aan has been communicated to me so that I admonish/awaken you the living people with this and to admonish/ awaken the one whom this Qur'aan reached". ;
All time Admonisher
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I agree the Book is the guide. The God told the messenger to say "...and this Quran has been revealed to me that with IT I may warn you and whomever it reaches..." (Q.619)
As far as the messenger "permanently and perpetually" a warner/awakener, The God says, "And Muhammadun is but a messenger - messengers have already passed away before him. If then he dies or is killed, will you turn back upon your heels?..." (Q.3143) Therefore, we dont need the messenger anymore once he has delivered The Message.
Also, The God says, "A command from Us - truly We are ever sending messengers -" (Q.445)
The Messenger was the last of the prophets, but The God is "...ever sending messengers." "A mercy from thy Lord - truly He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (Q. 445-6)
Who do you understand are the messengers that The God is "ever sending"?
Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam
If the Book is the Guide, where in the Book are we told to say this? In the Book, (Q.383)
"Say We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that whic was revealed to Abraham and Isshmael and Issac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."
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Also, The God says, "A command from Us - truly We are ever sending messengers -" (Q.445)
The Messenger was the last of the prophets, but The God is "...ever sending messengers." "A mercy from thy Lord - truly He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (Q. 445-6)
No fault of yours to have the perception that you have mentioned.
The translator seems to have little bothered to first peep into some grammar book to know what does a deficient verb mean. Nor he seems to have bothered to first know the structure of the sentences in three worded last part Ayah. Nor he seems to have remembered or taken care the context and the reference to which the Ayah relates.
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Given your knowledge of "deficient verbs" "sentence structure" and "context and the reference to which the ayat relates"...what is your understanding of what this ayat is saying?
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Given your knowledge of "deficient verbs" "sentence structure" and "context and the reference to which the ayat relates"...what is your understanding of what this ayat is saying?
Deficient verb "kana" denotes a past transanction, act done in the past, not continuous action in the present and future as suggested in the translation quoted by you "A command from Us - truly We are ever sending messengers -" (Q.445)
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Deficient verb "kana" denotes a past transanction, act done in the past, not continuous action in the present and future as suggested in the translation quoted by you "A command from Us - truly We are ever sending messengers -" (Q.445)
Let me make sure I am understanding what you are implying...
Is it your understanding that since "kana" denotes past transaction, done in the past and not continous in the present and future then in Q.445, The God SENT messengers in the past and is not sending messengers continuous in the present and future?
If this is not what you mean, could you please clearly explain the meaning of Q.445?
I would appreciate you providing a more precise translation since it seems that it is your understanding that "the translator seems to have little bothered to first peep into some grammar book to know what does a deficient verb mean. Nor he seems to have bothered to first know the structure of the sentences in three worded last part Ayah. Nor he seems to have remembered or taken care the context and the reference to which the Ayah relates."
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It comprises of Verb Like Particle suffixed with its Subject Pronoun, First Person Plural/Sovereign Singular-this refers to the Speaker, Allah the Exalted. Verb-Like Particle emphasizes the certainty of the following predicate about its subject.
This sentence is the predicate of Verb like particle.
is deficient PERFECT verb suffixed with First Person plural pronoun, in nominative state, as subject noun of deficient verb.
Active Participle Indefinite; sound plural; masculine; accusative; ; - Verbal Noun. This is the predicate of Deficient Verb. It denotes the one who causes the communication/sending something, person, message, book.
The above signifies and portrays, "It is a fact that We were the Communicator/Sender in the entire time-line."
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The above signifies and portrays, "It is a fact that We were the Communicator/Sender in the entire time-line."
Thank you for your response. Let me be clearly on what you are conveying
Are you saying that given the verb, sentence structure, etc., in Q.445, you understand that a more precise translation of this ayat is "It is a fact that We were the Communicator/Sender in the entire time-line."
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Thank you for your response. Let me be clearly on what you are conveying
Are you saying that given the verb, sentence structure, etc., in Q.445, you understand that a more precise translation of this ayat is "It is a fact that We were the Communicator/Sender in the entire time-line."
Yes.
is also in the end of 2845. See there how they translate, except Yusuf Ali who erred.
Sahih International But We produced generations , and prolonged was their duration. And you were not a resident among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our verses, but We were senders .
Pickthall But We brought forth generations, and their lives dragged on for them. And thou wast not a dweller in Midian, reciting unto them Our revelations, but We kept sending (messengers to men).
Yusuf Ali But We raised up (new) generations, and long were the ages that passed over them; but thou wast not a dweller among the people of Madyan, rehearsing Our Signs to them; but it is We Who send messengers (with inspiration).
Shakir But We raised up generations, then life became prolonged to them; and you were not dwelling among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our communications, but We were the senders.
Muhammad Sarwar But We raised many generations after Moses and they lived for many years. You did not dwell with the people of Midian reciting Our revelations to them, but We had certainly sent Messengers to them.
Mohsin Khan But We created generations , and long were the ages that passed over them. And you (O Muhammad SAW) were not a dweller among the people of Madyan (Midian), reciting Our Verses to them. But it is We Who kept sending (Messengers).
Arberry but We raised up generations, and long their lives continued. Neither wast thou a dweller among the Midianites, reciting to them Our signs; but We were sending Messengers. -
"in the entire time-line"...can you please explain what you mean by that statment? What "time-line" are you referring to? When does it begin and when does it end?
And is it your understanding that The God SENT messengers and is NOT SENDING messengers today?
And is it your understanding that "Mohammad" is the "perpetual and permanent" warner/awakener?
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First let me know whether the confusion about sending in future is over or still exists. If it still exists, what is the source in its support?
I am not confused about anything. I am following your line of reasoning just fine. I don't want to misunderstand your position, so to make sure that we are on the same page, could you respond to the questions
When you translated Q. 445 you said "in the entire time-line"...can you please explain what you meant by that statment? According to the Quran, what "time-line" are you referring to? When does it begin and when does it end?
According to Q.445, is it your understanding that The God SENT messengers ("past transaction" and is NOT SENDING ("not continous in the present and future" messengers today?
Is it your understanding that "Mohammad" is a "permanent and perpetual" warner/awakener not only to the people during his time but also a "permanent and perpetual" warner/awakener to everyone the Quran reaches after his death
Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam pronounced "And this Qur'aan has been communicated to me so that I admonish/awaken you the living people with this and to admonish/ awaken the one whom this Qur'aan reached". ;
All time Admonisher
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According to Q.445, is it your understanding that The God SENT messengers ("past transaction" and is NOT SENDING ("not continous in the present and future" messengers today?
Is it your understanding that "Mohammad" is a "permanent and perpetual" warner/awakener not only to the people during his time but also a "permanent and perpetual" warner/awakener to everyone the Quran reaches after his death
Yes
When you translated Q. 445 you said "in the entire time-line"...can you please explain what you meant by that statment? According to the Quran, what "time-line" are you referring to? When does it begin and when does it end?
An event. an act signified by past tense signifies time-line. The Day the Man was sent to Earth he was sent with this info that the guidance will keep coming from Him, the Sustainer Lord. The end is when the Guidance has since been sent for the entire humanity, unlike the past when it was local affair, for different nations, not global message. None, repeat none was the Messenger for entire humanity except the Last One.
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An interesting line of reasoning...I do not agree with it, but we all have to stand before The God with what we understand. This is my understanding of Q.445
Using the "internal dictionary" of The Book (i.e., tasrif) I see when The God talks about Himself, He makes it clear how He uses the word "kana". The God uses "ma kana/kuna" to denote when He IS NOT doing something, for example, in 1964 (not forgetful) and 3628 (not sending) and when He IS doing something, for example in 3340 (ever knowing) 443 (ever warning) 445 (ever sending) and 7110 (ever forgiving).
According to the Quran, kana means "was/ever is". The God was and ever is Knowing, Forgiving, Sending, Warning. The God does not "stop knowing" or "stop warning" or "stop sending" or "stop forgiving" unless He specifically tells you that He is not doing it.
Using your line of reasoning, if kana means "past" and not continuous in the "present and future" then if he is not sending messengers in the present or future, then there is a problem in 661 and 737 because The God says that He sends messengers to take our souls at the time of death.
Moreover, in the ayat you quoted, 2845 The God is speaking to the Messenger informing him of certain things regarding Moses. If, as you claim, kana means past and not present or future how did the Messenger become the Messenger? The God said that He found Muhammad "dhallan" (astray) and He "fahada" (guided) him. 937 A messenger had to come to him AFTER Moses. Are you saying that there were no messengers after Moses?
And as far as your "time-line" being an "event", this is a statement with no support. However, The God tells us what the "time-line" is in 771-13. Here you can read in context how The God gives us the "time-line" for when He begins and stops sending messengers.
As far as the messenger being the "perpetual and permanent warner/awakener" this is another statement with no support. The messenger did his job during his lifetime but he's been dead for over 1400 years and is no longer able to warn anyone. 3143
The messenger was the last of the prophets...not the last messenger because The God said that He is ever sending messengers (445) until they reach their appointed time, the Day of Judgement. (7711)
Just in case you are wondering about these messengers, The God tells you that He chooses messengers from angels and men (2275)
Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam
Do you really want to keep saying that since in The Book of Guidance, The God told the messenger to Say to the people "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that whic was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Issac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit." (383)
Or could it be that the majority of those who call themselves "sunni muslims" have adopted the habit of making this statement whenever they say something regarding the messenger...remember The God said, "And if you obey MOST of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from The God's Way. They follow naught but conjecture and they only lie." (6117)
When you look at the times The God speaks about MOST people, it's not a good thing. These are a few...Most hate the truth (2370); Most associate partners (12106); and Most are mushriks (3042)
Leave that baggage at the door...
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An interesting line of reasoning...I do not agree with it, but we all have to stand before The God with what we understand. This is my understanding of Q.445
Using the "internal dictionary" of The Book (i.e., tasrif) I see when The God talks about Himself, He makes it clear how He uses the word "kana". The God uses "ma kana/kuna" to denote when He IS NOT doing something, for example, in 1964 (not forgetful) and 3628 (not sending) and when He IS doing something, for example in 3340 (ever knowing) 443 (ever warning) 445 (ever sending) and 7110 (ever forgiving).
According to the Quran, kana means "was/ever is". The God was and ever is Knowing, Forgiving, Sending, Warning. The God does not "stop knowing" or "stop warning" or "stop sending" or "stop forgiving" unless He specifically tells you that He is not doing it.
Using your line of reasoning, if kana means "past" and not continuous in the "present and future" then if he is not sending messengers in the present or future, then there is a problem in 661 and 737 because The God says that He sends messengers to take our souls at the time of death.
Moreover, in the ayat you quoted, 2845 The God is speaking to the Messenger informing him of certain things regarding Moses. If, as you claim, kana means past and not present or future how did the Messenger become the Messenger? The God said that He found Muhammad "dhallan" (astray) and He "fahada" (guided) him. 937 A messenger had to come to him AFTER Moses. Are you saying that there were no messengers after Moses?
And as far as your "time-line" being an "event", this is a statement with no support. However, The God tells us what the "time-line" is in 771-13. Here you can read in context how The God gives us the "time-line" for when He begins and stops sending messengers.
As far as the messenger being the "perpetual and permanent warner/awakener" this is another statement with no support. The messenger did his job during his lifetime but he's been dead for over 1400 years and is no longer able to warn anyone. 3143
The messenger was the last of the prophets...not the last messenger because The God said that He is ever sending messengers (445) until they reach their appointed time, the Day of Judgement. (7711)
Just in case you are wondering about these messengers, The God tells you that He chooses messengers from angels and men (2275)
Do you really want to keep saying that since in The Book of Guidance, The God told the messenger to Say to the people "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that whic was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Issac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit." (383)
Or could it be that the majority of those who call themselves "sunni muslims" have adopted the habit of making this statement whenever they say something regarding the messenger...remember The God said, "And if you obey MOST of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from The God's Way. They follow naught but conjecture and they only lie." (6117)
When you look at the times The God speaks about MOST people, it's not a good thing. These are a few...Most hate the truth (2370); Most associate partners (12106); and Most are mushriks (3042)
Leave that baggage at the door...
I was expecting this sot of lengthy statement, that was the reason I wanted to know and restrict to
First let me know whether the confusion about sending in future is over or still exists. If it still exists, what is the source in its support?
Kana is called deficient verb because it denotes Past. Further it denotes "a state" meaning "has been". I hope you differentiate between an act and state. Kana nowhere means future.
Now please give a second thought and grasp what you yourself have said
According to the Quran, kana means "was/ever is".
This signifies past upto the point in time of saying-reading it, NOT future.
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I was expecting this sot of lengthy statement, that was the reason I wanted to know and restrict to
Why would you want to "restrict" this discussion? The God says "...bring your proof..." (2875). We are discussing Our Creator. I view this forum as a "think tank" where we "roll up our sleeves and get busy." We check our egos and baggage at the door, and contrary to Shaitan's statement that he will show Allah how ungrateful we are, that we are grateful for the gifts that The God has given us and we use our intellect to find out who Allah is and what our responsibility is to Him.
These gifts...Allah speaks about those who have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not and ears wherewith they hear not...they are like cattle, deaf and dumb, but worse than that, they are astray. (7179)
No one person has a "lock" on understanding of this Book. The God says in 3127, "And of the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea with seven more seas added to it, the words of The God would not be exhausted..."
Allah told the messenger to say to the people..."O people of the Book, come to an equitable word between us and you, that we shall serve none but Allah and that we shall not associate nothing with Him, and that some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah. But if they turn away, then say Bear witness that we are Muslims." (363)
My purpose here is not to convince you that I am right and you are wrong, to the contrary, if you derive some understanding from what I communicate to you, it's all good. If you reject it, that's fine too...just know that whatever your understanding is, are you prepared to bet your soul on that understanding and stand before your Creator with that understanding and "take your lumps"...good or bad?
P.S. when I say "you" I dont mean you personally...
Salaam
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The issue was
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Also, The God says, "A command from Us - truly We are ever sending messengers -" (Q.445)The Messenger was the last of the prophets, but The God is "...ever sending messengers." "A mercy from thy Lord - truly He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (Q. 445-6)
Mazhar
The translator seems to have little bothered to first peep into some grammar book to know what does a deficient verb mean. Nor he seems to have bothered to first know the structure of the sentences in three worded last part Ayah. Nor he seems to have remembered or taken care the context and the reference to which the Ayah relates.First resolve about verb Kana.
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Among other things...asked and answered...but if you missed it, here it is again...
Using the "internal dictionary" of The Book (i.e., tasrif) I see when The God talks about Himself, He makes it clear how He uses the word "kana". The God uses "ma kana/kuna" to denote when He IS NOT doing something, for example, in 1964 (not forgetful) and 3628 (not sending) and uses inna kana when He IS doing something, for example in 3340 (ever knowing) 443 (ever warning) 445 (ever sending) and 7110 (ever forgiving).
According to the Quran, kana means "was/ever is". The God was and ever is Knowing, Forgiving, Sending, Warning. The God does not "stop knowing" or "stop warning" or "stop sending" or "stop forgiving" unless He specifically tells you that He is not doing it.
For the sake of simplicity, if a person is a medical doctor by profession, and he retires, in the past, he WAS a doctor, but in the present and future he doesnt stop being a doctor...he was and ever is going to be a medical doctor.
Using your line of reasoning, if kana means "past" and not continuous in the "present and future" then if he is not sending messengers in the present or future, then there is a problem in 661 and 737 because The God says that He sends messengers to take our souls at the time of death.
Moreover, in the ayat you quoted, 2845 The God is speaking to the Messenger informing him of certain things regarding Moses. If, as you claim, kana means past and not present or future how did the Messenger become the Messenger? The God said that He found Muhammad "dhallan" (astray) and He "fahada" (guided) him. 937 A messenger had to come to him AFTER Moses. Are you saying that there were no messengers after Moses?
The difference between what you understand kana to mean and what I understand lies in where we look to support our position. Your understanding of the verb "kana" is supported by outside references and dictionaries/lexicons etc., which is not a bad thing, because I do that too, since English is my first language. However, I take that research one step further and go back to The Book and see how The God uses that same word, using tasrif.
I trust The Book Alone and Allah's argument is the Conclusive Argument. In (6150) Allah tells the Messenger to say to the people
"Say Then Allah's is the Conclusive Argument..."
It is my hope that I conveyed my understanding to you clearly.