Imams/Clergy in Quran Alone????
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I wonder what the consensus of quran alone followers is on the issue of Imams or any other clergy in Quran Alone Islam? I mean every group needs some sort of person to minister to the general population, officiate life events, guide peoples study, etc.
Is clergy needed?
Who can be clergy?
How would one become clergy?
What would be the formal role of any clergy?Would love to hear your thoughts....
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceThe red highlighting above is from me.
Salaam,
This topic probably needs thousands of pages to talk about. Here is my two cents worth.
According to The Qur?aan, there is no RELIGIOUS leader/?IMAAM in Islam. The Qur?aan on its own is the WHOLE authority when it comes to religious issues.
A Muslim is not allowed to follow anyone when it comes to believing in the main articles of faith. I?m not to follow anyone in the matters of believing in GOD, THE LAST DAY, and RIGHTEOUSNESS. These are the very PHILOSOPHICAL FOUNDATIONS of the faith and the very personal ones. See verses 21-5 below, among many others.
( ( ( ( (
Every person must come to believing in them instinctively and without any outside interference.
On the other hand, when it comes to the matters of SOCIO-ECONOMIC and POLITICAL issues, the society MUST be orderly and highly organized when encountering countless complicated issues of the kind. Here, the existence of leaders/?IMAAMS is a MUST. In other words we need specialized GOVERNING bodies in all branches, i.e. social, economic, and political organizations and QUALIFIED LEADERS as their heads to run them. See verses 459 & 483 below.
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Peace,
Khalil -
On the other hand, when it comes to the matters of SOCIO-ECONOMIC and POLITICAL issues, the society MUST be orderly and highly organized when encountering countless complicated issues of the kind. Here, the existence of leaders/?IMAAMS is a MUST. In other words we need specialized GOVERNING bodies in all branches, i.e. social, economic, and political organizations and QUALIFIED LEADERS as their heads to run them.
There is no such thing as "political issues". Until you realize this truth, you will be a slave to the corrupt pigs who are "governing" the world. The problems of society are not "political" in nature. "Politics" is the greatest fraud that mankind has ever known.
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Is clergy needed? No..
Who can be clergy? See above
How would one become clergy? See above
What would be the formal role of any clergy? See aboveSubsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel/Good News), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented "Rahbaniyah" (Priesthood system) which we never commanded for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments. But they did not uphold as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them (The Clergies) were wicked..
As proven by history.. the so-called clergy/priest usually shall see themselves as "The Sole Ultimate Broker To God"..
Example- Jesus trial by the 'sanhedrin'..with accusation of 'false prophet'.
- James (Jesus brother) death by stoning punishment
- Catholics 'inquisition'..
- Catholics oppression to the protestants..
- Wahabbis massacre of the shiites..
- Sunnis continuing oppression to the ahmadis..
- and on and on and on..
Salam / Peace
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There is no such thing as "political issues". Until you realize this truth, you will be a slave to the corrupt pigs who are "governing" the world. The problems of society are not "political" in nature. "Politics" is the greatest fraud that mankind has ever known.
Exactly!!! Its fraud to think one needs a group of people to govern you as such as each of us is a "khalifah" of Allah. So the very idea of another human being governing another is out the window. Each of us governs ourselves handshake
PEACE
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When I think of the role of the Clergy I think more of someone to officiate lifecycle events weddings, baby namings, funerals, offer counseling as well as providing a coherent system of study so that one may reach a solid relationship with Allah.
When I think of clergy I do not think of someone between Allah and I, but someone who can point the way. Guide me to ways of thinking that bring me closer to Allah.
Other thoughts?
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
When I think of the role of the Clergy I think more of someone to officiate lifecycle events weddings, baby namings, funerals, offer counseling as well as providing a coherent system of study so that one may reach a solid relationship with Allah.
When I think of clergy I do not think of someone between Allah and I, but someone who can point the way. Guide me to ways of thinking that bring me closer to Allah.
Other thoughts?
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceThe above highlights are from me.
Salaam,
Solid relationship with ALLAAH, swt, does not need any middleman or broker. It can only be established through the direct guidance of ALLAAH, swt, Himself. There is no other way. GOD ALMIGHTY is the only source and authority for guidance, not clergies. Clergies, as we know them today, and in any religion, are nothing but a bunch of frauds, under direct or indirect influence of the big money and or politicians. Clergies are nothing but tools of deception, short selling GOD?S religion, and for a cheap price too.
A wholehearted believer needs no clergy to guide him/her within GOD?S straight path. Just open the book of ALLAAH, swt, and keep studying it on a regular basis and ask GOD for guidance. The rest is up to Him. In the words of Jesus, pbuh, keep knocking, and it will be open to you.
The issues of marriage ceremonies, baby naming, funerals, and what not, are all rather of social maters than religious ones, and in a civilized society should be taken care of through civil services organizations.
Saying all that, I do not deny the technical roll of QUALIFIED VOLUNTEER TEACHERS in helping to educate others in the mater of learning The Qur?aan, and learning how to perform religious duties, etc. Paid PROFESSIONAL CLERGIES are nothing but frauds.
Peace,
Khalil -
First, you will not find a unified voice of the so-called "Quran Alone" people, especially in a public forum, which is open to everyone even to the imposters... You will find more than 31 flavor of us, since each of us are thinking for ourselves and each have different background, experience, level of knowledge, age, hobbies and fobias, intellectual capacity, and of course, we may also differ in priorities.
As for my position
God does not need ignorant and arrogant liers for representation, and we do not need leaches and powerbrokers to reach God. We will each be judged for our own choices and none can save us from the consequences, except God.
As for the knowledgeable people, experts, or scientists (alimun, utu-l ilm, or rasikhuna fil ilm), since their authority is not based on their pedigree, the size of their hat, their funny cloths, their smoky rituals, their long beard, the lenght and allure of their names and titles, the number of their blind followers, their promise of saving people from Hell, their talent in telling and selling fabricated stories, or any other irrelevancies regarding finding the truth; but their authority comes with their ability to provide persuasive arguments and evidences for a particular position and their openness to correct themselves when their error is demonstrated.
Peace,
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As for the knowledgeable people, experts, or scientists (alimun, utu-l ilm, or rasikhuna fil ilm), since their authority is not based on their pedigree, the size of their hat, their funny cloths, their smoky rituals, their long beard, the lenght and allure of their names and titles, the number of their blind followers, their promise of saving people from Hell, their talent in telling and selling fabricated stories, or any other irrelevancies regarding finding the truth; but their authority comes with their ability to provide persuasive arguments and evidences for a particular position and their openness to correct themselves when their error is demonstrated.
Agree with you..
Although I would suggest to revised the word 'authority' with 'trustworthiness'...
Scientists, experts doesn't have any authority whatsoever..
And within 'scientific method' it is recommended to challenge the hypothesis/opinion of anyone including those which considered as having a 'high degree' of 'trustworthiness'.. given enough evidence...
Example
Newton -> 'corrected' by Einstein -> Corrected by many people nowadays who delved themselves in modern physics..Scientific culture foster and nurture the 'critical thinking' approach.. while Sectarian clergies. disallow it...
Within scientific culture; It is the fact that matter not those who propose such fact/opinion..Salam / Peace
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When I think of clergy I do not think of someone between Allah and I, but someone who can point the way.
Guide me to ways of thinking that bring me closer to Allah.Ask Him directly Jewish dude...
As another Jewish dude once said..
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."And also in the Quran.. a very direct statement..
"Call on Me; I will answer you!" (4060)Salam / Peace
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When I think of clergy I do not think of someone between Allah and I, but someone who can point the way. Guide me to ways of thinking that bring me closer to Allah.
Other thoughts?
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceSalaam
As I understand Imams does not mean clergy instead it mean a leader or spokes person so there is no need for someone to bring us close to God as God is nearer than our jugular vein. But for the functioning of a society we need some spokesperson or representative which should come from every neighbourhood and finally getting to the top main block of representative, this way all affairs are handled by the representatives of people who are not superior in any way. This is called real democracy and that is what Islam is all about real power from the grassroots simply via weekly assembly during Jumma leading to the occasion of Hajj.
Allah knows best
Shalom -
Salam and Peace!
"(It will be said) ?That (bad end) of yours is because, when Allah ALONE, was called upon, you disbelieved. And if some partner was joined to Him, you believed. So The Judgment is with Allah, The Most High, The Great.? (Al-Momin-12)
So when Allah's Quran alone is put before people to believe, they turn away by saying. "Al-Quran is unpracticeable without Al-Bukhari."
But when Imam Bukhari is set up as a partner with Allah,
and his Sahih Al-Bukhari is set up as a partner with Al-Quran,
----they say,-----"Yes, now we believe."Seen???
Guess, who was Imam Bukhari?-------A clergy, who is taken as ilah and followed!
"They have taken their clergies as their rubb besides Allah" (At-Tauba-31)
For the Ummah today---
Al-Quran alone is not enough---Sahih Al-Bukhari is needed.
Then---
Allah alone is not enough-----Imam Bukhari is needed.-----"And when Allah, the One is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with disgust. And when those (whom they listen, read and follow) besides Him are mentioned, behold, they rejoice." (Al-Zamur-45)
Is the ummah not happy, when Imam Bukhari is remembered???
----------------------------when the Prophet is remembered???
----------------------------when Sahabas are remembered???
----------------------------when Ali, Fatimah and Hasan, Hussain are remembered???
----------------------------when Imam Ghazali is remembered???
----------------------------when Sorcerer Sufees are remembered???
----------------------------when Rashad Khalifa is remembered???
----------------------------when favorite Ulama Karam are remembered???And---are the hearts of the Ummah not filled with disgust,-----when Allah alone is remembered?????
Lovers of Sins-----Seekers of honor-----fond of this garbage worldly life!
Jahileen!!!
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BTW.. akhi JewishDude..
Could you invite more of other JewishDude or JewishChicks to this forum?
Their presence shall make the discussion here to be more interesting and insightful..
Given to the 'similarity' of background and culture... albeit the 'political differences'..Shalom
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Wow.... Based on the response and the tone of it, I think I used the wrong language. Clergy, Imam, etc. I appreciate everyones responses. I also understand the apprehension of giving someone authority to do something religiously. However, along the idea of a spokesperson and religious coordinator I think there really needs to be some sort of leader. No group forms a well organized group with out some sort of leadership. Leadership doesn't mean "You will do what I say". Often leadership says "Where do we want to go?" then listens to those answers and then helps organize people to make it operational and ultimately succeed.
For example, we want our children educated, we need someone to organize schooling, because we may not have the time nor enough understanding to guide learning effectively. As the example mentioned above about science... We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
I appreciate your feedback and these are just my thoughts....
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Salaam JewishDude,
For example, we want our children educated, we need someone to organize schooling, because we may not have the time nor enough understanding to guide learning effectively. As the example mentioned above about science... We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
I appreciate your feedback and these are just my thoughts....
Let me add my thoughts.
The above highlighted part is a problem. Example given above is good for 'worldly education' but not to a guidance towards Allah. At the moments I thought of the following reasons
They add their own personal understanding while teaches which could be wrong.
Allah knows of a student of AlQuraan and gives him/her 'what and when' is needed, getting something earlier may lead the student go astray because of not having proper basics. Allah teaches us step-by-step in a very powerful manner.
Allah's guidance is the 'only true' guidance, other's may not.
Most of other teacher or leaders they make you closer to themselves and their ideology and their group in many ways, but they never think of making you closer to Allah.
Please look at the following aayaats in support of my understanding
73
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any supporters. Little do you remember!548
548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if Allah had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To Allah you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salam and Peace!
Wow.... Based on the response and the tone of it, I think I used the wrong language. Clergy, Imam, etc. I appreciate everyones responses. I also understand the apprehension of giving someone authority to do something religiously. However, along the idea of a spokesperson and religious coordinator I think there really needs to be some sort of leader. No group forms a well organized group with out some sort of leadership. Leadership doesn't mean "You will do what I say". Often leadership says "Where do we want to go?" then listens to those answers and then helps organize people to make it operational and ultimately succeed.
For example, we want our children educated, we need someone to organize schooling, because we may not have the time nor enough understanding to guide learning effectively. As the example mentioned above about science... We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
I appreciate your feedback and these are just my thoughts....
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peacePeople often ask, "Institutions are more important or persons are more important?"
Then they answer, "Institutions are more important, and we should always struggle to make them stronger."But, according to my understanding of Al-Quran,----persons are more important than the institutions, because it is the persons who establish and run he institutions. If persons are dishonest and liars, then institutions only become a source of fulfilling their vested interests.
Allah, in His Exalted Quran, never commands us to strengthen the institutions, rather He commands us to fear Allah, and reform and purify ourselves and become good to others.
-----"Allah loves those who purify themselves." (910
So, a God-fearing person, who purifies himself, and as a reward of it, Allah loves him,-----is the best person to run an institution and serve the people. Such a person could be a ruler or an officer.
But we should remember, in Islam, the rulers and officers, are nothing but servants of the common people.
And people, who are served, has all the right to take them to accountability.What comes out finally, is that the rulers and officers are nothing but servants, organizers or care-takers of the community.
On the other hand the momineen (people) of the community who are served, are commnaded to stand with the (God-fearing) care-takers, and extend their full cooperations to their servants.
-----"O you who believe, fear Allah, and be with those who are true." (9119)
Indeed, these true people could be the servants, friends and other people of the community.
And when it comes to the rulers (servants of the community), then this act of cooperation with those true rulers is so important that it is not only an act of standing by them, but it is also a matter of obedience.-----"O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those who are in authority (Oolil Umr that is true care-takers of the community) among you. Then if you have a dispute concerning any matter (people are allowed to dispute with the Oolil Umr, if they go against Allah's Commandments), refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more commendable in the end." (459)
There is no concept of an "established institution" of religious scholars, sheikhs and imams in Al-Quran.
Only in one Verse (9122), people of "yatafaqqahu fid Deen" are ordered to warn the people.
Yes, warn the people, and not to become teachers and teach them Al-Quran.
Because the same people who will be warned, are commanded to read, contemplate and follow Al-Quran themselves.At another place in Al-Quran, it is adviced to go to people of Knowledge and ask them.
But again, those who are advised to go to people of Knowkedge and ask, are commanded to read, contemplate and follow Al-Quran for themselves,-----because when they would go to people of Knowledge, how would they confirm whatever they are told is from Al-Quran, until they themselves read and attain The Knowledge very properly.
And indeed, such a person who reads Al-Quran keenly and with fear of Allah and know its Message, would barely need to go to any scholar, only when he is confused at some place.So, as such, people of the ummah, are not fully handed over to the Clergies/Imams. The ummah is not left at the mercy of the Clergies/Imams.
There is no institution of "Clergies/Imams" in Al-Quran.And see, what these big Imams and religious scholars (Ulama Karam) have done to this ummah. These corrupt and criminal Ulama Karam, Sheikhs and big Imama follow different schools of thoughts (Shirk) and have divided the ummah into haram and mushrik sects.
This is only and exactly, what the Ulama Karam, big Sheikhs, and big-bellied Imams have done to the ummah.-----They hide The Revealed Truth from people and stop them from Allah.-----"Indeed, those who conceal what We have sent down of Clear Proofs and The Guidance, after what We had made it clear for the people in the Scripture. They are those cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse." (2159)
Who conceals The Clear Proofs (Al-Quran) from the ummah?
Common people???---Or---the corrupt Clergies/Imams???Common people are also liars and criminals,---because they follow these corrupt lot of Clergies/Imams.
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After the Messenger, there is no leader in Deen. The Messenger was an Authorized leader.
Allah Himself is the Teacher, Guide and everything. If someone reads Al-Quran himself, without the help of the fabricated ahadith, tafseer and human teacher, only then he will come to know that Allah alone is The Teacher, Hadi, and everything.Once these Clergies/Imams are taken as leaders or teachers, (even if they are on The Right Path, and as such they are not), shirk starts.
-----"They have taken their Clergies/Imams as their rubb besides Allah" (At-Tauba-31)
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What is the---TruthBehindIt?
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Peace brother!
A lot of Peace! -
Salam and Peace!
In all times, the previous ummahs have always been misguided by these Clergies/Imams, Priests, Rabbis, Pundits. They had made people their slaves and divided them into sects.
These Clergies/Imams always supported the unjust rulers who oppressed the common people.And whenever Allah's Messengers came to the oppressed people with Allah's Revelations, these were the unjust rulers and the Clergies/Imams who stood against them and opposed them.
These corrupt Clergies/Imams and the unjust rulers persecuted the Messengers and their Sahabas.Even today, if any Messenger of Allah had to come to this misguided ummah,-----for sure, these Clergies/Imams of the ummah would have been on the forefront to oppose the Messenger of Allah.
If you need the Proof, then start calling the misguided majority of this ummah to Allah's Quran,-----you will find no one, but the corrupt, sectarian and shirk-doer Clergies/Imams from every corner of the world opposing, threatening and persecuting you.
These gentle-looking, soft-spoken Clergies/Imams, Sheikhs and Ulama Karam will pass a fatwa agaisnt you that you have become a murtad, kafir and blasphemer.
Common people will come and kill you, to go to Paradise and spend time with virgins there.Is it not the---TruthBehindIt?
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Peace again!
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Peace,
I think people are misunderstanding what Jewishdude is saying. Yes we all are aware of the folly of following a leader, but practically, operationally speaking there has to be one or more? How can a group exist practically without leadership? Lest we forget the sheepish mentality of a people. Do we think Quran lone-lies are immune to this? Jewishdude isn't saying to follow them blindly, generally speaking, as I understand it.
I do however disagree with this
We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
Quantity =/= quality. Just because a person has studied an x number of years doesn't mean they know more than you or better than you. Are odds better? Debatable. Look at the clergy all over the world.
They can perhaps point to sources? All the different views on the topic? A library of sorts. Say a person comes to this library and he can point them to a specific section ,say, dealing with childhood education. Marriage. Divorce. ETC.In terms of learning, a group approach is better than giving one guy the authority over a people who aim to seek knowledge. No matter who the leader is, they will have their own bias. There probably should be a moderator (or moderators) in this context, but his only job is to make sure the process spurts growth, that it's a peaceful process. We also have to realize that no matter what the people will always seek 'religious' guidance. Shouldn't a system based on quran-alone offer this?
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Salam and Peace!
So, a God-fearing person, who purifies himself, and as a reward of it, Allah loves him,-----is the best person to run an institution and serve the people. Such a person could be a ruler or an officer.
But we should remember, in Islam, the rulers and officers, are nothing but servants of the common people.
And people, who are served, has all the right to take them to accountability.What comes out finally, is that the rulers and officers are nothing but servants, organizers or care-takers of the community.
On the other hand the momineen (people) of the community who are served, are commnaded to stand with the (God-fearing) care-takers, and extend their full cooperations to their servants.
-----"O you who believe, fear Allah, and be with those who are true." (9119)
-----"O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those who are in authority (Oolil Umr that is true care-takers of the community) among you. Then if you have a dispute concerning any matter (people are allowed to dispute with the Oolil Umr, if they go against Allah's Commandments), refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more commendable in the end." (459)After the Messenger, there is no leader in Deen. The Messenger was an Authorized leader.
Allah Himself is the Teacher, Guide and everything. If someone reads Al-Quran himself, without the help of the fabricated ahadith, tafseer and human teacher, only then he will come to know that Allah alone is The Teacher, Hadi, and everything.Once these Clergies/Imams are taken as leaders or teachers, (even if they are on The Right Path, and as such they are not), shirk starts.
Peace brother!
A lot of Peace!Salaam
Exactly!! And how do you chose those people of authority ie Oolil Umr?
By regularly attending Jumma and there establishing who is capable of being a true caretaker of every local area, these caretakers later meet yearly to discuss with wider circle of caretakers matters of concern, so this is how you select true repesentative to serve Ummah in the higher Oolil Umr.
Shalom Salaam Peace -
Thanks for the responses.
I think Jack has the idea of where I am going with the question. A moderator, facilitator or whatever you may call it. The point is that people want to be together and learn socially, without a moderator/facilitator I think many people could "HiJack" the Quran Alone movement and turn it into something it was never intended to be. So to rephrase my question....
Does Quran Alone need a moderator/facilitator?
What should be the requirements to be a moderator/facilitator?
How should a moderator/facilitator be trained?Maybe this will help the discussion.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Thanks for the responses.
I think Jack has the idea of where I am going with the question. A moderator, facilitator or whatever you may call it. The point is that people want to be together and learn socially, without a moderator/facilitator I think many people could "HiJack" the Quran Alone movement and turn it into something it was never intended to be. So to rephrase my question....
Does Quran Alone need a moderator/facilitator?
What should be the requirements to be a moderator/facilitator?
How should a moderator/facilitator be trained?Maybe this will help the discussion.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceShalom JewishDude
No those who follow Quran know there is no need for moderator/facilitator but yes there has to be group of people who manage affairs called Oolil Umr; as quoted below
Salam and Peace!
-----"O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those who are in authority (Oolil Umr that is true care-takers of the community) among you. Then if you have a dispute concerning any matter (people are allowed to dispute with the Oolil Umr, if they go against Allah's Commandments), refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more commendable in the end." (459)
There is no concept of an "established institution" of religious scholars, sheikhs and imams in Al-Quran.
Only in one Verse (9122), people of "yatafaqqahu fid Deen" are ordered to warn the people.There is no institution of "Clergies/Imams" in Al-Quran.
Peace brother!
A lot of Peace!Sholam Peace and Salaam