Basic Questions on Quranists
-
Of course, the Quran is what Muhammad wrote, what came to his mind, his reform, and what he copied from Jewish and Christian scriptures. There is nothing divine about it.
Mr . Muziar Ali I will like to propose a challenge for you unless of course you find yourself inadequate to do it yourself. If the Quran isn?t divine as you claim then I will like for you to write a book with the below information. The book must have the same number of verses (6346) and it must be in Arabic. Plus it must make sense AND contain information about the previous scriptures (you can use the bible if you like). Write it yourself and then come here on this forum again when your finished (which may be never). Happy Writing )
Oh if you can?t do it yourself why don?t you ask some of your friends to help you )
PS The above is just a SMALL fraction of the signs contained in this book http//www.quranmiracles.com/
So a man from the desert had the time to count ALL of this and write a book WITH NO CALCULATOR!!! WOOOOW! Some people are so stupid. Common sense is not common among any generation of people. There is a difference between reading a book and studying a book.
Word occurrence Number of Occurrence
Days 30
A day 365
World 115
Hereafter 115
Mercy 79
Guide 79
Hot 4
Cold 4
Rich 26(13x2)
Poor 13
Adam 25
Jesus 25
Tree 26
Plant 26
Final Destiny 28
Forever 28
Benefit 50
Corruption 50
1.There are 114 chapters in the Quran, or 19 x 6.
2.The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334.
3.Then you add the 30 different numbers which are mentioned in the Quran's text (i.e. one God, two brothers, etc.), the total is 162146 or 19 x 8534.
4.The first statement in Quran, "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful" consists of 19 Arabic letters. Known as the `Basmalah', it prefaces every chapter except Chapter 9.
5.Though missing from Chapter 9, exactly 19 chapters later the Basmalah occurs twice. Chapter 27 has this statement at its beginning and in verse 30. This makes the total number of times the Basmalah occurs in the Quran 114, or 19 x 6.
6.Since there are 19 chapters between the missing Basmalah and the extra one, the sum of those chapter numbers is a multiple of 19. (The sum of any 19 consecutive numbers is a multiple of 19.) But the total, 342, is also the exact number of words between the two occurrences of the Basmalah in Chapter 27. This number, 342, is 19 x 18.
7.Every word in the Basmalah occurs throughout the Quran a number of times which is a multiple of 19.
8.The very first revelation that was given to the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, came as 19 words.
9.The total number of letters making up the 19 words of the first revelation is 76, 19 x 4.
10.Though they were the first revelation, these verses are placed at the beginning of Chapter 96. This chapter is atop the last 19 chapters.
11.Chapter 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, or 19 x 16.
12.The last chapter revealed (Chapter 110) has 19 words, and its first verse is 19 letters.
13.God's name in Arabic, `Allah,' occurs in the Quran 2698 times, or 19 x 142.
14.If you add the numbers of the verses where `Allah' occurs, the total is 118123 or 19 x 6217.
15.The main message in the Quran is that there is only One God. The number of times that the word `one' is used to refer to this concept of One God is 19.
16.The word `Quran' occurs in 38 different chapters, or 19 x 2.
17.The total number of times `the Quran' is mentioned is 57, 19 x 3.
18.Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (Chapter 2) and the last initialed chapter (Chapter 6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, or 19 x 2.
19.In that same group of chapters, from Chapter 2 to Chapter 68, there are 19 alternating sets of initialed and non-initialed chapters.
20.The total number of verses making up this group of chapters is 5263, 19 x 277.
21.Within this group of chapters there are also 2641 occurrences of the word `Allah', or 19 x 139. Of course, that leaves 57, or 19 x 3, occurrences of that word outside of this group.
22.If you add the chapter and verse numbers of the 57 occurrences of `Allah' outside the initialed section, the total is 2432 or 19 x 128.
23.There are a large number of discoveries having to do with the numbers of the chapters and verses. Many of them are very complex and interrelated. Here is a simple one to give you a feel for these discoveries If you add the numbers assigned to all the chapters, plus the numbers assigned to all of the verses, plus the number of verses in the Quran, the total is 346199 or 19 x 19 x 959.
24.If you look at the initialed chapters separately and add the chapter numbers, verse numbers and number of verses, the total is 190133, 19 x 10007. Of course it follows that the total for the uninitialed chapters, 156066, is also divisible by 19.
-
And of course, Muhammed was no idiot, was a brilliant dude like da vinci, always putting patterns for people to see. P
-
Of course, the Quran is what Muhammad wrote, what came to his mind, his reform, and what he copied from Jewish and Christian scriptures. There is nothing divine about it.
The red highlighting above is from me.
Hearing this from you, an atheist, if I?m not mistaken, is really commendable. Why then you do not consider Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, as the most influential leader in the history of mankind, and start learning from him? You cannot deny the ideology that he was preaching 1400 years ago is still growing quite vibrantly on a global scale, compared with other ones, especially the modern materialistic ideologies which in a short time lost momentum and turned back 180 degrees.
Maybe you do believe that the people are deaf, dumb, and blind, or as one of your colleagues used to say; religion is the opium of the masses.
Anyways. What you are saying is nothing new regarding Muhammad copying from the books before him. These sorts of ?accusations? have been around ever since Muhammad started his movement. He constantly was accused of being taught and dictated by others. See verse 255 among others.
(
And they say Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. (5)Peace,
Khalil -
Hearing this from you, an atheist, if I?m not mistaken, is really commendable. Why then you do not consider Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, as the most influential leader in the history of mankind, and start learning form him? You cannot deny the ideology that he was preaching 1400 years ago is still growing quite vibrantly on a global scale, compared with other ones, especially the modern materialistic ideologies which their movements lost momentum and turned back 180 degrees.
Maybe you do believe that the people are deaf, dumb, and blind, or as one of your colleagues used to say; religion is the opium of the masses.
Anyways. What you are saying is nothing new regarding Muhammad copying from the books before him. These sorts of ?accusations? have been around ever since Muhammad started his movement. He constantly was accused of being taught and dictated by others. See verse 255 among others.
(
And they say Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. (5)Peace,
KhalilYou cannot prove to be the existence of the supernatural because proof deals with the existence of the natural. Muhammad was a great reformer, a humanist, but it is very sad to see his followers still following the same superstitious beliefs that had passed from earlier generations, from scriptures such as the bible.
Religions grow for many reasons. Why many people become religious is clear. Because their observations of reality are weak, they want to lead a good life because they want to achieve a particular objective. (which in the Abrahamic religions is going to Heaven). Faith is good for the self, it is not a solution but it gives people a psychological feeling of well being. Prayer is not a solution.
http//a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/196243_173099566070919_100001126299436_336964_5378620_n.jpg
Muhammed undoubtedly copied from the Jewish scriptures as we see traces of them in the Quran. Mostly the historical data or mythological stories written in the bible at that time. The story of moses and the story of Jesus for example.
I am a quranist, in the sense that I exclude the belief in anything divine, but still carry out the system inscribed in the Quran.
-
You cannot prove to be the existence of the supernatural because proof deals with the existence of the natural.
You are again right 100%. Super natural, by definition, cannot be materialized. On the other hand natural world is a finite one because of its movement. And by definition any moving object has a beginning and an end. In other words, natural world is a confined environment. The question is what is it that confines it within. What is it that causes its beginning, its movement, and its purpose/end. I myself cannot logically/philosophically believe that a Webster dictionary comes to existence just by a random explosion inside a print shop.
Conclusion; the good old never-ending ?cause and effect? argument. See chapter 109 in The Qur?aan.
(١ (٢ (٣ (٤ (٥ (
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Say O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)
Peace,
Khalil -
18.Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (Chapter 2) and the last initialed chapter (Chapter 6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, or 19 x 2.
interesting indeed. a brain which is pleased by the 19 divisible number of non-initialed chapters between the first and the last initialed chapter, but can't notice the number of initialed chapters itself in NOT multiple of 19
29 = 19 x 1,526315.... laugh
Here is a simple one to give you a feel for these discoveries If you add the numbers assigned to all the chapters, plus the numbers assigned to all of the verses, plus the number of verses in the Quran, the total is 346199 or 19 x 19 x 959.
why you dont sum up only the number of verses in the Quran for example ? why you are continuously adding new numbers as if you were cooking soup.
1.There are 114 chapters in the Quran, or 19 x 6.
2.The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334.
are the numbers of words/letters in Quran or total Gv of Quran also multiples of 19 ? If not why ?
Brother, I dont reject 19 miracle. yet you should also see the examples you listed do not form a SINGLE system. they are not parts of a whole. think on my last question above..
for example you can say that table of names of Allah is a system, and if you know the real purpose of this system then you can easily distinguish other parts of it. however all these findings you listed in ur post do not form a system. instead they are an attempt to establish a "mathematical system of Quran", the famous 19-code, "The Quran's proof of authenticity" to confirm messengership of RK as indicated in 381. 19ers dont observe what God gave but they try to find what they (want to) believe to exist.
-
for example you can say that table of names of Allah is a system, and if you know the real purpose of this system then you can easily distinguish other parts of it. however all these findings you listed in ur post do not form a system. instead they are an attempt to establish a "mathematical system of Quran", the famous 19-code, "The Quran's proof of authenticity" to confirm messengership of RK as indicated in 381. 19ers dont observe what God gave but they try to find what they (want to) believe to exist.
What sort of gibberish is that? Brother why don?t you pick up an ordinary book and try to find a mathematical consistency in them that is remotely similar to what the Quran has. Better yet write a book like it. You will not even come close to it. Only a stubborn person will not be able to acknowledge the signs in the Quran.
You stick to what you believe and I will stick to what I believe. It is my belief that the 19 based code is the miracle of the Quran. There are just too many mathematical consistencies involving the number 19. These are the signs of God?s book. How much more clearer can God make it in the Quran?
151 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Qur'an.
111 A.L.R, a Scripture whose verses have been made governing, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.261 T'.S.M.
262 These are the signs of the manifest/clarifying book.311 A.L.M.
312 These are the signs of the book of wisdom.271 T'.S, these are the signs of the Qur'an and a clear Scripture.
101 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture of wisdom.
If these are the signs( the letters) of God's book what do they mean? Tell me GGG if you can get a better answer than what the 19 based code has shown
http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html
So GGG what is the meaning of the letters that God said are the signs of his book? Since you seem so knowledgeable tell me what do they mean?. And show me your proof with your answer.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
If numbers or other device help a person to monotheism, where is the harm? The numbers are not worshipped, only ALLAH. Monotheism is not a cult, where everybody must do the same thing, the same way at the same time. A monotheist is a monotheist, regardless of "form."
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
It cuts both ways. There exists neither compulsion to accept nor to deny anything having to do with numbers.
4125 And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to GOD, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And GOD took Abraham as a friend.
Abraham (PBUH and all prophets) did not need numbers and yet is listed as a "best" example. Of course, the Prophets also didn't use computers, and many seekers find them useful in their pursuit of useful knowledge.
Everybody knows the similitude of opinions. There is only one Judgement that counts. When opinion is used to hurt or demean or force others it has no positive purpose.
Even in the case of deniers of monotheism, what does AQ say?
7310 And be patient over what they say, and depart from them in a good manner.
Those who use bad manners, deliberately or not, disobey ALLAH by not complying with AQ.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
You are an atheist-submitter laugh
PS Our big big messenger RK hail told there are various types of submitters such as christian-submitters, jewish-submitters, buddist-submitters, satanist-submitters etc etc....
Dude, don't misquote me
I said
I am a quranist, in the sense that I exclude the belief in anything divine, but still carry out the system inscribed in the Quran.
-
Any reference from AlQuraan will be appreciated.
Mohammed M. Khan
Sorry, but I don't think I cannot provide any references from the quran. The Quran claims it is divine, but I don't believe so.
-
Bro 501, I wonder why u cant see my point, maybe u r not smart enough, or it may be due to my poor english (my 2. foreign language)..anyway, my point is not about acknowledging or not acknowledging the signs in the Quran but about determining what all 19 signs are..a single math system of Quran or discrete systems each having different messages (about specific distortions in Quran / about salat etc) or sthing else
-
Bro 501, I wonder why u cant see my point, maybe u r not smart enough, or it may be due to my poor english (my 2. foreign language)..anyway, my point is not about acknowledging or not acknowledging the signs in the Quran but about determining what all 19 signs are..a single math system of Quran or discrete systems each having different messages (about specific distortions in Quran / about salat etc) or sthing else
dude, I dont care what you are..just took the opportunity to make fun of RK's submitter theory... that's all D
If you want God?s signs in a particular way then I can?t help you. I almost feel sorry for you brother. Mocking God?s signs will surely be your downfall. May God guide those who seek only his wisdom and acknowledge his signs.
635 If their aversion has become too much for you, then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the earth, or a ladder to the heavens, and bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have summoned them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
-
Gabriel,
Personally I believe the Quran used familiar names and stories to illustrate different morals and lessons. And at least in some cases the relation between the Quran and earlier scriptures is purely imagined.
I think the problem has been that scholars have used earlier scriptures to "fill in the blanks" in the translations and interpretations. But what actually needs to be done is that the Quran is translated using only itself as a source, without the presumption that it is just an extension or newer edition of the Bible, and then see if any connections emerge. -
Peace,
There's an interesting view of Quranists like what Basma Khalifa of submission.org have written; i paste here below
Satan is currently furious that his scheme has been exposed by our generation, and that the truth is unveiled will prevail by God's will and support. He has developed new approach, exclusively for our group of believers knowing that we are finally engaged in the learning process as qualified students for one Teacher and one easy, perfect, and straightforward source. He has established a Satanic perspective for 551-2 mainly to divert us from the clear truth and fill our hearts with confusion and uncertainty. The Satanic twist of 551-2 he introduces is that " The Most Gracious, Teacher of Quran" means God teaches a certain verse or command to each one of us differently. Based on that, not only different understandings/interpretations of a given teaching are quite possible but also are quite welcome!!! So, instead of upholding personal opinions and interpretations of the scholars through his old, "follow the leader" scheme, we are filling up our memories with the different understandings and interpretations of fellow believers through the new twist of 551-2! His ultimate goal has been always the same deviation far from the truth from God, confusion, and uncertainty that lead to regressed souls.
also Basma adds
"The Most Gracious- Teacher of Quran" and "it is we who explain it" are straightforward statements to ENSURE the source of the meanings and teachings. They are to DIRECT us to what is constructed in black and white by God and to KEEP us guarded against different opinions, different sources, and different understandings. God is our Teacher, because the text book is one and it is His.
There is a crucial difference between understanding the meaning of a verse, and offering a personal perspective or an application for that verse. Understanding a verse means the mental precess to comprehend what is expressed by God in that verse. A personal perspective is one's personal ideas that are combined and offered to create a meaningful relationship to that verse. Personal perspective of a verse doesn't affect in the least the understanding of the meaning delivered by God. Meanings expressed and delivered by God through His words and verses are not changeable and should not perceived differently. We grow in knowledge and grasp a new meaning when we pay attention to more specific values of God's words and overcome our personal limitations or, at times, blindness. This doesn't mean that God's verses have different understandings, it means something is newly revealed to us in the light of Quran that we have never known or paid attention to before (20114, 5101). The words of the Most Gracious establish the absolute, and concrete truth, in an accurate and efficient logic. God states that He authored His teachings without any ambiguity as the absolute truth and the only source of guidance. Hence He is the Clarifier and Teacher.My issue with this view is this, Why then have submission.org, Rashad Khalifa and now Basma have to TEACH and PREACH their own views and interpretations of the Quran?? Why not just leave the people to read the Quran and let them learn, with God's guidance and leave them be?? Its absolute that there is a true meaning of the Quranic verses but its also true that we, will have different perceptions, views, and understanding of the verses. Basma says NO! Different views will not be tolerated. Arent they two different things? Our understanding of the verses and the true meaning of the verses?
Perhaps so that the hadeeth have been exposed as such, but i digress as a matter of principle, then if we were to follow the view of this type of Quranists, then this website, and submission.org should not exist in the first place.
Free-minds.org holds many different views and state them here, we discuss, elaborate, bounce ideas. Im not saying outright that the Quranists view of this is wrong....however lets elaborate this as such. Let me repeat and repaste what she wrote
"The Most Gracious- Teacher of Quran" and "it is we who explain it" are straightforward statements to ENSURE the source of the meanings and teachings. They are to DIRECT us to what is constructed in black and white by God and to KEEP us guarded against different opinions, different sources, and different understandings. God is our Teacher, because the text book is one and it is His.
And interestingly, when I sent Basma an email to ask about a verse, she was happy to reply and elaborate her understanding of it!! Hah. Now this is the most amusing part......allow me to paste
Muhammad Forbidden from Explaining the Quran
Do not move your tongue to hasten it.
It is we who will collect it into Quran.
Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.
Then it is we who will explain it.You (the command is expressed in plural tense for humanity in the Arabic text) shall all follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; do not follow any idols besides Him. Rarely do you take heed.
This too is a blessed scripture that we have revealed; you (the command is expressed in plural tense for humanity in the Arabic text) shall follow it and lead a righteous life, that you may attain mercy.Now 1) Rashad Khalifa interpreted with his views, that Muhammad was forbidden to explain the Quran. 2) Basma khalifa negates this and claims the command is to ALL humanity.3) Out of reverence for her father,whom many believe is a messenger, does not SIMPLY edit their version of the translation 4) Why does she then have to EXPLAIN this verse since IT IS CLEAR FROM THE QURAN ITSELF, DIRECTLY FROM GOD?4) Isnt this hypocrisy and contradiction of the highest order or am i missing something here?
Different views of this, are welcome, until a good refutation of this appears.