Basic Questions on Quranists
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Dear Friends,
I am a professor of Islamic Studies, focusing on the Quran and the religious context of the 7th century Middle East. In scholarly terms I am convinced that the Quran is an ancient text, and that the hadith (and tafsir) come from a later period in Islamic history (at a time when religious rivalry with other groups -- Christians especially -- shaped their development). In personal terms I am a Catholic Christian and a believer in God. I have a high estimation of the Quran, and for all of these reasons I am interested in the Quranist movement. I'd be grateful for some insight regarding the movement. First, what is its relationship with the Submitters movement? Second, does the English term "Quranist" or "Quran-alone" refer to the same group(s) for which the Arabic term "Qur'aniyyun" is used? Third, would Qur'anists generally be open to scholarly studies that involve a discussion of the Quran's relationship with other religious literature of the Middle East (for example, the story of Ashab al-Kahf and the Syriac Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus)? In other words -- would Quranists allow the possibility that the Quran can be better understood by reading earlier religious literature, or would these storts of studies by frowned upon? Thank you for your thoughts!
Gabriel
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Peace, Gabriel.
It`s really quite simple. It is about studying The Quran, and following it.
The relationship to submitters is that of rejecting hadith, but they believe satan is an angel (that would make god evil, since angels do the will of God. God is not defined this way in the Quran.) and they distort a verse to support Rashad Kalifa as a messenger (which I do not believe he was, although it may depend on how you define messenger. I certainly not do believe he was a messenger with basis in any quranic verse)
They also believe in 5 prayers also, although there are only 3 times in the Quran.
There may be more, someone else might fill in?Quranist, Quran alone, quraniyyun refers all to Quranical Islam. Which again means following the Quran alone for ones Islam.
Although one follows the Quran Alone, reading other scripture can be good, to get the background of the qurans commentary on those. Such as The Bible. The Quran makes references to the gospel, to psalms, to the wisdom of solomon, and so forth.On the highest level, quranical islam, is universal, based on human nature, and compatible with the universal values of any religion. To some extent you can say that these religions are the same. However other religions have been distorted, particulary their scriptures. It is also true that The Quran has been misunderstood, and hadith added, but since we still have the quran today, we can read it for ourselves and come to a better understanding.
Peace.
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Dear Friends,
I am a professor of Islamic Studies, focusing on the Quran and the religious context of the 7th century Middle East. In scholarly terms I am convinced that the Quran is an ancient text, and that the hadith (and tafsir) come from a later period in Islamic history (at a time when religious rivalry with other groups -- Christians especially -- shaped their development). In personal terms I am a Catholic Christian and a believer in God. I have a high estimation of the Quran, and for all of these reasons I am interested in the Quranist movement. I'd be grateful for some insight regarding the movement. First, what is its relationship with the Submitters movement? Second, does the English term "Quranist" or "Quran-alone" refer to the same group(s) for which the Arabic term "Qur'aniyyun" is used? Third, would Qur'anists generally be open to scholarly studies that involve a discussion of the Quran's relationship with other religious literature of the Middle East (for example, the story of Ashab al-Kahf and the Syriac Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus)? In other words -- would Quranists allow the possibility that the Quran can be better understood by reading earlier religious literature, or would these storts of studies by frowned upon? Thank you for your thoughts!
Gabriel
Greetings! Peace! Welcome!
These are very good questions! There is no way for me to speak for everyone, but I can answer your questions as I understand them, as a former Christian who believes in G-d Alone with the guidance of the Word of the Quran The Submitters have their own movement, and there are some here who can speak about that. I don't know the specific differences in a "Quranist", or "Quran-alone" muslim, or a "Qur'aniyyun". Usually, I call myself a "Quranist" because it is just easier for me. I think some ahadith are great, others are horrible, and then there are the schools of Fiqh. Why does it have to be so complicated???? It doesn't! These are the things (sunnah, fiqh, ahadith) people bind themselves up with and it makes life too hard! If G-d thought we needed something, we'd know. G-d would give us the guidance. That is it! (For me! I'm sure you'll encounter the inevitable Sunnis here) So I'm not going to follow some human-invented rules and put my life in some scholar's hands when according to the Quran, I am responsible for my own actions, and no one else! I find a lot of freedom and responsibility in that, and I welcome this! As for other literature, in my opinion, the Quran has to be contextualized by previous Word such as the Torah, Psalms, Gospels. . . or we wouldn't know who Abraham was, why the conflict in the Middle East goes back to Isaac and Ishmael, what Jesus was trying to change, etc. That is my point of view, and there are many others. )I truly hope you find some answers here and that you have a blessed day.
Peace,
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peace,
First, what is its relationship with the Submitters movement?
Submitters are simply one group under the umbrella movement of Quran based islam.
Second, does the English term "Quranist" or "Quran-alone" refer to the same group(s) for which the Arabic term "Qur'aniyyun" is used?
Pretty much, yes.
Third, would Qur'anists generally be open to scholarly studies that involve a discussion of the Quran's relationship with other religious literature of the Middle East (for example, the story of Ashab al-Kahf and the Syriac Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus)? In other words -- would Quranists allow the possibility that the Quran can be better understood by reading earlier religious literature, or would these storts of studies by frowned upon?
The Quran itself recommends/allows the study of many things in order to better understand its message
2920, 3137, 3190-191, 4153, 453-4 - knowledge of archaeology/biology/physics/history/sciences/philosophy etc will all help to better understand it.
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And oh yes, the submitters place a great deal of emphasis on a numerical consistency found in the scripture. Which to me, if they quoted scripture instead of listing "stuff x 19" it would probably be better.. There MAY be a numerical consistency. And the number 19 MAY have a significance. But not to the extent of manipulating numbers so that one can inject ones name into the Quran. From what I can remember not only RK did this, but a japanese person too.
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Hi Gabriel,
I?m not too sure about the submitter movement.
Quranist/ quran alone/qurianiyoon are pretty much the same term, same group
Qurans relationship with other religious literature and using literature to better understand Quran are 2 very different concepts.
Different individuals will give you different answers.
Seeking knowledge is praiseworthy however what makes you think using old/ancient texts will help you understand the Quran better? Rather it throws a bias onto the Quran, influenced by external sources which is pretty much what hadith is.
You?re entitled to make your own inferences and decide what it may be understood as. However, that may not be the case (as in truth) and would totally be seen as an orientalist point of view. It wouldn?t necessarily be seen praiseworthy because you?re making inferences through outside sources which are not as ?unique? or sacred as Quran. It may be seen as a form of speculation. The assumption that particular literary devices at the time may share commonalities and thus Quran can be understood in the context of the ancient world with ancient text. In a certain way it closes the Quran to a time and place, almost like how some orientalists believe Quran should only be for the arabs and was made only for them.
How well preserved are ancient literature of the time? Do you actually have access to them? Is there any others you know of. Also its interesting when people compare different religious text, it?s like they want to fill in the gaps or see the differences or claim one book stole the theory off the other. So would be interesting to see what you plan to come up with.
Most likely you?d get mixed opinions, personally i wouldn?t see it as an enlightenment to better understand the Quran.
enjoy your studies )
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Thank you friends for your responses -- and for the warm welcome. As I was reading your responses I thought of a fourth question, namely where the Quranist movement has grown the most. Is it largely confined to N. America and Europe? I have heard from friends here (I am currently living in Lebanon) that there are Qur'aniyyun in Egypt but I am not sure about the movement's spread elsewhere in the Islamic world.
Thank you and God bless! Gabriel
p.s. don't hesitate to let me know if I should start a new thread with this question.
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I am a Catholic Christian and a believer in God
If you are a believer,then what am I ?
My God (Allah) doesnt have a son. So only one of us is a believer, the other not.
I have a high estimation of the Quran
What is it ? do u believe Quran is word of God or not ? If you dont, then read your verse below
986 Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of creatures.
As for Submitters, Quranist, Quran-aloners etc, they are all the same. Generally they are humanist global citizens rather than muslims. And they like the real Quran's message as much as your catholic christian people do. That's why their religion is based on several verses like 262, 4913, 3022 etc etc.. obviously on misinterpretitions of these verses.
If you are one of those moderate islam designers, these onlyquran-people will perfectly serve your purpose.
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I have been studying the submitters movement for a few years now. And I have come to the conclusion that Dr. Rashad Kahlifa was indeed a messenger of God. Here are my reasons
- He was solely responsible for the discovery of the 19 based mathematically code in the Quran . This discovery lead to the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Sura?s
- He was one of the first to publicly start the Quran Alone movement.
- Because of the discovery of ?the Code? he was able to prove that 9128-129 didn?t belong in the Quran.
- If you look at Sura 381 and Sura 337 you will see quite clearly that a messenger WAS indeed suppose to come AFTER Muhammad. The Quran says that Muhammad was the last PROPHET not the last MESSENGER. 3340 .
A prophet is one who brings a book. A messenger is one who doesn?t bring a book. For example Jonah was a messenger but he WASN?T a prophet. Every prophet is a messenger but not every messenger is a prophet.
Now I know that some of the things that he did were contradictory of the Quran but one has to understand that he was still LEARNING the Quran. At the time of his death some of the submitters in Masjid Tucson started to use his footnotes and appendices for guidance instead of continuing his research of the Quran which he never completed.
Read this article written by Edip Yuksel http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/submitters.htm
And yes he did make mistakes. He himself said it many times. But one has to remember that all of the messengers in the past have made mistakes themselves. So even though Dr.Rashad Khalifa was not perfect, neither was Muhammad nor Abraham.
However in spite of the mistakes his message was crystal clear The Quran alone is to be used as guide in Islam.
Regardless of what people think the point is that the words of a messenger doesn?t supersede the word of the Quran. So God would suffice as a witness for his Messengers. In the end we are suppose to uphold the Quran alone. I will like to invite people to study the 19 based miracles in the Quran if they haven?t done so as yet. It is something that will blow your minds! Trust me. It will indeed increase your faith in the Quran.
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then what does a messenger bring ?  
The red highlighting above is from me.
Salaam,
GOD, Almighty, Has sent thousands of messengers throughout the history of mankind to different communities and nations, all over the world. We know just a handful of them through the scriptures. On the other hand we have only a handful of scriptures. So, if all messengers were supposed to had received books/scriptures from GOD, then we ought to have numerous scriptures on our hands, and not just a handful. That is why all messengers can not be PROPHETS, but all prophets are messengers.
Coming back to your question; the roll of a messenger is to preach the existing scriptures on hand, and inviting his people that have gone astray, to come back to the right path. That is exactly what Dr. Rashad Khalifa did throughout his mission till the day he was assassinated. He preached The Qur'aan Alone and invited the people to worship GOD ALONE and to discard all man-made, Satan-fabricated nonsense, called Hadith, Sunnah, Rawayah, etc.
Hope I answered your question.
Peace,
Khalil -
then what does a messenger bring ? )
A messenger (who?s not a prophet) brings only a message sometimes with sign. (for example when a messenger was sent to Thamud God gave a camel to the messenger Sura 91 11 -15 Not a scripture or a book.)
In Noah?s case he didn?t have a sign, he just had a clear message. Prophets bring scripture for example David was a prophet and he had the Psalms, Moses and Aaron had the Torah , Jesus had the Gospel and Muhammad had the Quran ....These men were messengers and Prophets since they bought with them scripture. -
Salaam,
- He was solely responsible for the discovery of the 19 based mathematically code in the Quran . This discovery lead to the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Sura?s
- He was one of the first to publicly start the Quran Alone movement.
- Because of the discovery of ?the Code? he was able to prove that 9128-129 didn?t belong in the Quran.
- If you look at Sura 381 and Sura 337 you will see quite clearly that a messenger WAS indeed suppose to come AFTER Muhammad. The Quran says that Muhammad was the last PROPHET not the last MESSENGER. 3340 .
A prophet is one who brings a book. A messenger is one who doesn?t bring a book. For example Jonah was a messenger but he WASN?T a prophet. Every prophet is a messenger but not every messenger is a prophet.
As per my understanding there are atleast 4 different types of messengers.
Please take a look http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602494.0Rasool = Messenger
Al + Rasool = AlRasool meaning The Messenger
Rasool + Allah = Rasool Allah meaning Messenger of Allah
Rasool + Hum = Rasooluhum meaning Their Messenger
Those all are different than each other, besides them there are more like
Rasool + Kum = Rasoolakum meaning Your Messenger
Rasool + Hu = Rasoolahu meaning His Messenger
Rasool + Na = Rasoolana meaning Our Messenger
Rasool + Ha = Rasooluha meaning Her Messenger
Rasool + Yi = Rasooliyy meaning My Messenger
Rusool + Ka = Rusoolika meaning Your Messengers
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
If you are a believer,then what am I ?
My God (Allah) doesnt have a son. So only one of us is a believer, the other not.
What is it ? do u believe Quran is word of God or not ? If you dont, then read your verse below
986 Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of creatures.
As for Submitters, Quranist, Quran-aloners etc, they are all the same. Generally they are humanist global citizens rather than muslims. And they like the real Quran's message as much as your catholic christian people do. That's why their religion is based on several verses like 262, 4913, 3022 etc etc.. obviously on misinterpretitions of these verses.
If you are one of those moderate islam designers, these onlyquran-people will perfectly serve your purpose.
You seriously have problems. Iinviting people to study the scripture in detail should not be done with appeals to fear, ignorance or arrogance. Use your brain for once, at least in one thread.
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
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Welcome Saiad / Gabriel welcome
I am a professor of Islamic Studies, focusing on the Quran and the religious context of the 7th century Middle East. In scholarly terms I am convinced that the Quran is an ancient text, and that the hadith (and tafsir) come from a later period in Islamic history (at a time when religious rivalry with other groups -- Christians especially -- shaped their development).
Agree..
In personal terms I am a Catholic Christian and a believer in God.
In this society.. the default convention is it doesn't matter much on which member of the sect that you're coming from...
I have a high estimation of the Quran, and for all of these reasons I am interested in the Quranist movement. I'd be grateful for some insight regarding the movement. First, what is its relationship with the Submitters movement?
There could be some and there could also be none.. this is actually irrelevant..
Second, does the English term "Quranist" or "Quran-alone" refer to the same group(s) for which the Arabic term "Qur'aniyyun" is used?
Maybe yes and maybe no... again this is irrelevant.. people can label other people many names and the names shall have different meanings to many people as well.
Third, would Qur'anists generally be open to scholarly studies that involve a discussion of the Quran's relationship with other religious literature of the Middle East (for example, the story of Ashab al-Kahf and the Syriac Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus)? In other words -- would Quranists allow the possibility that the Quran can be better understood by reading earlier religious literature, or would these storts of studies by frowned upon?
The answer is DEFINITELY!!
And not only with 'other religious literature of the middle east' but with 'other religious literature around the world' as well...Salam / Peace
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GOD, Almighty, Has sent thousands of messengers throughout the history of mankind to different communities and nations, all over the world. We know just a handful of them through the scriptures. On the other hand we have only a handful of scriptures. So, if all messengers were supposed to had received books/scriptures from GOD, then we ought to have numerous scriptures on our hands, and not just a handful. That is why all messengers can not be PROPHETS, but all prophets are messengers.
436 We have sent many a prophet to the previous generations.
436 Ve kem erselna min nebiyyin fil evvelnthe roll of a messenger is to preach the existing scriptures on hand
The word messenger (rasool) is used for s.o who carries messages of s.o. else. Preaching the existing scriptures is not carrying messages (revelation) to others.
Just look at 381 to see RK is a fake messenger
381 GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Confirming a scripture can only be through another scripture
33 He sent down to you (Mohammad) this scripture (Quran), truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
546 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
etc etc.
Apparently, messenger of covenant is Mohammad not RK. laugh
covenant told in 381 is not the same covenant told in 337.
Don't let this kurdish-american creature fool you brothers..it may be dangerous for you, especially for those of you whose ages are over 40. rotfl
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You render you work in vain, when you include racist remarks, ggg.
Other than that I think most free-minders agree with this post. -
Don't let this kurdish-american creature fool you brothers..it may be dangerous for you, especially for those of you whose ages are over 40. rotfl
SERIOUSLY??!! This guy has still not gotten a moderator's attention?? It's the second time - God damn it!
3022 Among His signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and your colors. In that are signs for the world/knowlegeable.
3336 It is not for an acknowledging man or acknowledging woman, if God and His messenger issue any command, that they have any choice in their decision. Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger, he has gone far astray.
4910 Those who acknowledge are but brothers; so reconcile between your brothers, and be aware of God, that you may receive mercy.
4911 O you who acknowledge, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than them. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than them. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining acknowledgement. Anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
4912 O you who acknowledge, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. Do not spy on one another, nor shall you gossip one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Compassionate.
4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.
Now on to the ignorant's points...
Just look at 381 to see RK is a fake messenger
381 GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Confirming a scripture can only be through another scripture
33 He sent down to you (Mohammad) this scripture (Quran), truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
546 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
etc etc.
Faulty logic.
Confirming the scripture does not have to be done with a scripture - you are excluding this option. Muhammad was a prophet and he was OBVIOUSLY part of the covenant mentioned in 381.Why would both messengers and prophets receive books/scriptures? What sense does that make if there is a difference between the two? Clearly, there is
2252 We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God secures His signs. God is knower, wise.
The simple difference is that each prophet receives the scripture
2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book
More about this here.
Peace
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The messenger spoken in 337 and 381 could have never been Muhammad since he took the SAME COVENANT as the other Messenger's
381 God took a covenant from the prophets "For what I have given you of the book and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you authenticating what is with you. You will acknowledge him and support him." He said, "Do you testify, and agree to this burden?" they said, "We testify." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness.
337 When We took from the prophets their covenant. From you, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary; We took from them a strong covenant.
Hence if he (Muhammad) took the same covenant it is quite obvious that a Messenger was suppose to come AFTER Muhammad to authenticate what he had (the Quran). The Quran's proof of authenticity in my view was the 19 based code which authenticates the number of verses 6346 verses 19334, the number of sura's 114 Sura's verses 196, the number of times God is mentioned in the Quran 2698 times 19*142, the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Sura's.....To view first hand the mathematical miracle behind the 29 initialed Sura's go to this link http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html
And alot of other things as well...
I will like to think GGG that you know by now that the translations that have brackets are the interpretation of the translator and not what is in the original Arabic of the Quran.
The fact that Dr.Rashad Khalifa made mistakes in interpreting the Quran is completely irrelevant. It did bother me at first but then i remembered something that the Quran said ....God is the teacher of the Quran not messenger of God not prophet of God but God himself is the teacher (Sura 552 & Sura 7516-19). The submitter's in Masjid Tucson have blindly followed Dr.Khalifa's teachings (footnotes & appendices which he himself updated when he learnt something new) without verifying it themselves. So in retrospect they are doing exactly the same thing like those who follow the Hadith and Sunna. They have failed to realized that God is the teacher of the Quran and not his messenger. In my view it was a clear test for them. Sura 292
