Our treatment of others
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Hi everyone, its me Pel. I apologise for deactivating my account recently. I have done that with all forums that I was registered with. However I am back on this one only because thats what I am, a Koranist/God Alone muslim. The atheists on their forums don't have much respect for religions so them I don't think I will activate.
Anyway I am interested with how do others understand the verses such as the following
551 O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people.Reason why I am asking this is because I have others who are helping me in life and to have only Koranist muslims for instance in my life is impossible because I don't know one in person. And I like interacting with others.
Also I can't find it right now but there is preaty sure somewere in the Koran were it says that you shouldn't be friends with those who have caused the wrath of Allah to descend on them. I mean how do you know who is just being"tested/tried" as oposed to those who are beyond help?
Also I have started atending the Naqshbandi sufi meetings. Would anyone say that thats not good in any way.
The way I see it is it doesn't mean friends in general but only in religious sense, such as don't go to church for instance. Anyway how do you see and understand these kind of verses?
Thanks
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I have no problem with christians. I can just as easily point out the main aspect of my faith, in their books aswell.
And those points are what I think you should consider, regarding sufism aswell.That is, Ruh/Ruach is consciousness/soul in Abrahamic religion.
You probably know the verses about God breathing into a newborn child, his spirit. (ruh), which is what gives them life/consciousness.
The christian version of this, is Ruach, and Jesus trying to explain this "I am in God, and God in me, And me in you, and you in me" etc. "The words I speak are life, the flesh profited not" etc.That the word(consciousness) is God is typical gnostic teachings.
Consciousness being invisible, non-material, fits the invisible/unseen God of Abrahamic faith.
Beware of pantheistic views, of sufism, kabbalah, or other, where God is stated to be the created aswell.In my experience, The Quran alone, is sufficient, for any mystical endevaour.
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Reason why I am asking this is because I have others who are helping me in life and to have only Koranist muslims for instance in my life is impossible because I don't know one in person. And I like interacting with others.
Peace.
I can relate to the frustration of not finding anyone like-minded to interact with in person. God has blessed me with believing friends as of late, and I think I'm starting to learn what this "take as allies" means - the true siblinghood among believers is something else than mere friendship like I used to know them. It's incredibly powerful, and very intimate. I don't think it's possible to be allied in this way with anyone who's not a believer, and I think it would be harmful for the believer to even attempt approximating it with anyone who is astray. God forbids what he wills. -
Greetings and Peace, Pel and others group
Any monotheistic place of worship should, ISA, be okay to attend (UU church comes to mind).
Perhaps "allies" has a different meaning than acquaintances/friends. The proverb "Birds of a feather flock together" comes to mind, but monotheists of whatever stripe are good company--ISA!
Were you thinking of AQ 580
You see many of them allying the rejecters. Wicked is what their souls have provided for them, for the wrath of GOD is upon them, and in the retribution they will abide.
Jews and Nazarenes are not necessarily rejecters. There are many non-trinitarian Christians (aka monotheists!) in existence. Jews are also monotheists. Monotheists aren't even limited to the Abrahamic religions (monotheistic Vedanta for example). Islam has no monopoly on monotheism...but maybe all monotheists are muslims in the true usage of the word?
AQ 572 and 573 define rejecters
Rejecters indeed are those who have said GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. And the Messiah said O Children of Israel, serve GOD, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with GOD, then GOD will restrict the Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters.
Rejecters indeed are those who have said GOD is a trinity! There is no god except One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.
AQ 569
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in GOD and the Last Day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Hi, Pel.
Number one, I am a bit suspicious when I see the word Nazarene.
Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Isa.A better word might be Nazarite ....but this, in fact, is actually closer to what the original Christians were up to, in the beginning. Essenes, Gnostics... they were typically vegetarians and lived communally... separate from the patriarch and their cruel additions to the Torah. The Nicean bible added them back, with 4 tainted and out of date accounts of the 'Gospel' ...along with the writings of a man who never knew Isa personally ...never even spoke of his life.
Number two, we have to take this verse in context with other verses, such as those in the very beginning of the Quran which, in fact, attempt to unite Christians, Muslims, Jews and Saebeans. As I say, the original people we now think of as Christians were actually opposed to to the injustice they found infiltrating their path. The Judaic hierarchy of the time is said to have resembled the Roman aristocratic factions they were associated with, moreso than the Jews whom they ruled over. There was also a strong feminine aspect of deity associate with the early Christians. Timeframe is an incredibly important context, as is the direction of the dialog -- who he was speaking to, specifically, as well as who about.... specifically.
In closing, I would say that Naqshbandi is quite intensive in structure ...but Shaykh Nazim and his companions are outstanding in reputation and of a very ancient path of Sufism. I would say go for it, if your heart compels you that way. It's no longer the 20th century.
You could almost say I'm a salik under Nazim's care. I've studied his work since the beginning of my path, as he is a descendant of Rumi.... although I personally claim no affiliation with either Sunni or Shia and the schism which exists there.
Salaam.
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Anyway I am interested with how do others understand the verses such as the following
551 O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people.My guess is that this verse only applicable to the context of the place and time where it was being sent. (Arabia 1400 years ago).
And if you read the verses afterward it explain why they were considered 'wicked'..
People change and context change... for instance today the so-called "Nazarenes" sect does not exist anymore.Historically it has been proven that the Jews and the Christians WERE NOT ALLIES to one another..
Infact there are many occurrences where THEY OPPRESSED AND KILL EACH OTHERS.- The jews massacre of the christians in Jerusalem, 614 AD
- Catholics burning of the 'infidel jews' during 'catholics inquisition' in Spain, 1691 AD
- Forced expulsion of Jews from England by the Anglican church 13th century AD.
And the list goes on and on and on.. and if we're to assume that the Nazis were 'christians' then we have the massive massacre of the jews happening in 20th century too..
As thus it's either the verse above are wrong / not inline with the facts or it was correct for given time and place only which is Arabia 1400 years ago where presumably during that time and place, the jews and nazarenes were allies to each others. And just like any other 'political alliance' it was usually short-lived and change once the political condition changed as well..
In general my understanding will be don't make alliances or befriending the WICKED people.. whomever they are...
For example- Do not make alliances or befriend with the Nazi Germany during the WWII..
- Do not make alliances or befriend with the sunnis who murdered and oppress the ahmadis.. although you yourself is not an ahmadis..
- Do not make alliances or befriend with dictators who murder and oppress his own people..
etc...
Salam / Peace
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One must take into account the idea of proxy wars and propaganda in trying to understand the relationship between 'Christians' and 'Jews'.
In fact, however, I wanted to reply one more time, not for this, exactly, but rather to offer a defense for the man known as St. Paul who, in fact, though he didn't know Isa and did not speak of his life ....did speak of freedom from the old law, as did the original Christians. Some say he was a Gnostic... but that's a highly disputable term.
I do, however, believe that the Gnostic gospels (Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.) are an incredibly significant and valuable resource for interpreting not only Christianity but Islam itself, in fact. I won't go on about why, but there is a very good reason.
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The Nicean bible added them back, with 4 tainted and out of date accounts of the 'Gospel' ...along with the writings of a man who never knew Isa personally ...never even spoke of his life.
Not to divert the discussion too much, but what exactly is the "Nicean Bible"? Also, is the "man who never knew Isa".. Paul of Tarsus? If so, then perhaps you are not aware that he claimed to receive a revelation from Christ, I would think that this qualifies as "personal knowledge", wouldn't you?