:: Nasara - A sect among Christians? ::

raginggaijin

You're not getting it, here's what you said Reply #6 "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today."

Reread the part that says "as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today" and ask yourself who isn't getting it.
I bring forth proof from your own Books, as well as the teachings of the Yahudians who claim to be descendants of the Bani Israel, as shown above. A simple Google search will assist in your research as well.
If you want to believe the Nazarenes began 100 years ago, go for it. The proof given earlier refutes it, as do current historical teachings.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_%28sect%29

"According to Epiphanius in his Panarion the 4th Century Nazarenes were originally Jewish converts of the Apostles who fled Jerusalem because of Jesus' prophesy on its coming siege (during the Great Jewish Revolt in 70 A.D.). They fled to Pella, Peraea (which is northeast of Jerusalem), and eventually spread outwards to Beroea and Bashanitis, where they permanently settled.
The Nazarenes were an early Jewish Christian sect located in and about Jerusalem which proclaimed Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah and the Son of God. The Nazarenes were similar to the Ebionites, in that they considered themselves Jews, maintained an adherence to the Law of Moses, and used only the Aramaic Gospel of the Hebrews, rejecting all the Canonical gospels. However, unlike half of the Ebionites, they accepted the Virgin Birth.
As late as the eleventh century Cardinal Humbert of Mourmoutiers still referred to the Nazarene sect as a Sabbath-keeping Christian body existing at that time (Strong?s Cyclopedia, New York, 1874, I, 660). Modern scholars believe it is the Pasagini or Pasagians who are referenced by Cardinal Humbert suggesting the Nazarene sect existed well into the eleventh century and beyond.(The Catholic writings of Bonacursus entitled "Against the Heretics&quot. It is believed that Gregorius of Bergamo, about 1250 CE, also wrote concerning the Nazarenes as the "Pasagini"."

References used to compose the above text
Panarion 29.5.6
Panarion 29.3.3
F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingston (1988-92)The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford University Press, p 597&722.
(Acts 245)
Thayers's Lexicon (Nazraios), Strong's G3480, at Blue Letter Bible
a b Krauss, Samuel. Nazarenes. Jewish Encyclopedia. Retrieved 2007-08-23
a b Hegg, Tim (2007). The Virgin Birth - An Inquiry into the Biblical Doctrine. TorahResource. Retrieved 2007-08-13.
"Jewish Encyclopedia Jerome's Account".
Filaster (ca. 397 A.D.) was a bishop who wrote the "Book of Diverse Heresies" (lived about the time of Epiphanius). "The sect of Filaster (Nazorei/Nazarei) derives somehow from the Nazirites and accepts the Law and prophets." ft.12, p.73 'Nazarene Jewish Christianity from the end of the New Testament period until its disappearance in the fourth century' By Ray Pritz
Parks, James The Conflict Of The Church And The Synagogue Atheneum, New York, 1974, pp. 397 - 398.

Read your Book.

Isa came for the Children of Israel Mat. 1524, Mat. 121, Mat. 517-19, Mat. 1357, Luke 424, Luke 725-30, John 443, Acts 1119, Mat. 1526-27
Surah 349, 352, 7158, 578, 616
The Jews knew why Isa was there, and sought to kill him John 516-19, John 71, John 1147-57, John 196-7,12,2131, Mat. 1214, Mat. 263-4,14-15, Mat. 2724, Mark 141-2

You are striving to uphold the Nazarenes as an esoteric group that upheld teachings of mysticism. That's not what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to have taught in the Gospel accounts, and he did not say he came to abolish the Law.

Jesus came to fulfill Law, not end it Mat. 517-18, Luke 2444-45
The Law is to be upheld Rom. 331, Rom. 212, Gal. 44, Rom. 71-7
"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Rom. 331

I can't make you believe anything, especially when you don't believe the proof from your own Bible.

do you know what these 1st century Jewish groups believed? Do you know their approach to Torah?

See above. Read the New Testament.
Or are you saying there were no Bani Israel who followed the teachings of the Messiah? That can't be your claim because Peter was argued to be the 'minister unto the circumcised' while Paul is the 'minister unto the Gentiles'.

?But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." Gal. 27-9
?I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable.? Rom. 1516

So to ask what they believed, I need only point to the Bible.

To think the Quran is addressing the Essenes or other 1st century groups requires more than just your word. What about all the gnostic groups that existed in the 1st century, does the Quran address them too?? So I ask again, who were the Torah observant messianic Jews of the 7th century; in other words, who were these Nazarenes who believed in Christ and upheld Torah in 7th century Arabia?? I eagerly await your evidence, my guess is you have none.

You ignore the fact the Byzantine Empire enclosed the Nabatean lands, which comprised the displaced Bani Israel after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Prior to that the teachings of the Nazarenes and Christians went into those lands, as your own Bible states

"Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 210-11

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus." Gal. 117

If you want to say that the teachings reached as far as Arabia, disappeared for millennia, only to return 100 years ago, you are more than welcome to believe that. But I cannot without proof.

lol I already asked you for evidence that Paul taught pagan polytheism, but you didn't provide any. Instead you come back with disingenuous questions. If you have proof for your silly claims please bring them, otherwise stop repeating tired, old lies you got from islamic websites.

Sorry I don't have the time to listen to your 40 minute monologue, but if you can just bring your evidence, as was requested in my previous post, then I would be most appreciative.

So be it.

I am asked of my thoughts concerning Paul, the Pharisee bounty-hunter who claimed to have a vision of the Messiah upon a road that caused him to convert to Christianity. Do not think I seek to slander the man; he confesses his actions in Galatians 113-14. It is also written he admitted his Pharisee sect, along with his persecution against the Christians to King Agrippa in Acts 265-11.
As I was once a wicked man before Allah guided me to the Truth, and knowing it is taught all throughout the Bible and Quran that repentance of our wicked deeds and acting in a righteous manner proves a person?s faith through their actions, I do not seek to condemn Paul for his past. If he truly served Allah, then Paul?s actions and words would reflect this change in his heart.

Which leads to why I have issues with Paul and his teachings. I am a firm believer a man should be held to his word, yet Paul does not seem to be a man of his word much less honest. Paul admits he lied to convert people to his Trinitarian sect of Christianity.

Paul lied to convert Phil. 118, I Co. 920-21, Rom. 37
?For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?? Rom. 37
?What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.? Phil. 118

Now I have had Christians who tell me ?That?s not what those verses mean! You cannot lie to convert people to Christianity!? Understand that the versions of the Bible are numerous, I pull verses from the most commonly used King James version.
?And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.? I Co. 920-21

A man who lies in order to convert to his beliefs is not someone I trust. When I speak to people I do not act like I am of their faith to convert them. I have been asked ?Why do you say ?Allah? instead of ?God?? Because when I say ?Allah? you know Who I speak of, and it cannot be confused with the multiple terms of ?God? that are bandied about today in numerous faiths. I don?t dress as an Islamist or Jew in order to bring them to the light that is Al-Islam found in the Quran. I come to them as a Muslim, one who follows the deen perfected in the Quran and kept pure, protected, even now in our day in age.
Truth repels falsehood. To speak anything other than Truth, to act in any way other than a Truthful manner only weakens the foundation a man or woman stands on. It is warned in the Psalms
?Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness.? Psalm 523

So we as believers, be we Jews, Christians, or Muslims, must speak only the Truth. In the reported teachings of the Messiah, in John 843-44 he says of those who cannot understand his words
?Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own for he is a liar, and the father of it.? John 843-44

In case any Christian believes lying will be overlooked, I would ask you turn to Rev. 218. There is a description of those who will be in the Fire
?But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone which is the second death.? Rev. 218

Paul is also guilty of giving his opinion on matters, which shows all he taught cannot be considered to come from Allah. Allah does not make mistakes nor forgets.
Not all is inspired by God I Cor. 725
"Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy." I Cor. 725

Paul taught misogny and subjugation of women

Hijab I Cor. 113-6
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered." I Cor. 113-6

Men dominate women I Cor. 113, I Peter 31-7, Eph. 522-24
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I Cor. 113
"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." I Pet. 31-7
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." Eph. 522-24

Women have no rights I Tim. 211-15, I Cor. 1434-36
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
I Tim. 211-15
"Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?" I Cor. 1434-36

These teachings are where the teachings of hadith come from.

The Messiah (pbuh) repeatedly told those who listened to him that he said ONLY what Allah told him to speak.

"I can of mine own self do nothing as I hear I judge and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 530
"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." John 826
"For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." John 1249

The Messiah said ?Follow me?; he did not tell me I should follow anyone else unless they proved the came from Allah ? such is the Paraclete spoken of in John, Chapter 14 thru 16.

Spirit test
"Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." I John 42-3

The Quran passes this test
"O Mary, surely God give you good news with a word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are drawn nigh to God." Surah 345-46

Paul's spirit fails the test
"He asked 'Who are you, Lord?' The reply came, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.'" Acts 95
?And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.? Acts 228
"And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest." Acts 2615

Which leads to the matter of Paul?s ?conversion?.

Paul is reported in Acts to give testimony to his conversion upon the road, seeing a vision of the Messiah that led to his conversion to Christianity. This testimony is given in Act 93-9, Acts 226-21, and Acts 2612-18.

In each account the story is different.
In Acts 9 it is reported
?And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.? Acts 97

But in Acts 229 when speaking to a crowd Paul is reported to have said
?And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.? Acts 229

Already an inconsistency. Further proof of shenanigans. If this were an account revealed by Allah there would be no mistakes, no moments of forgetfulness, no inconsistencies.

This inconsistency is further compounded when speaking to King Agrippa in Act. 2612-18.
?At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
?And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.? Acts 2613-14

This is again odd as the Messiah is reported to have spoke Aramaic in the Gospel Accounts. A few examples can be found in Mat. 522, Mat. 624, Mat. 2746, Mark 541, Mark 734, Mark 1436, Mark 1534, Luke 169-13. There are others.

Adding insult to injury, he attempts to link himself to the Messiah in his writings
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time." I Cor. 153-8

I would ask people to look to Act 918, as Paul?s blindness was cured.
What is reported to have fell off of his eyes?
Scales. Acts 918
What creature in the Bible known for deception that has scales on its body?

These are the proofs in the Bible that led me to reject the teachings of Paul and follow only what the Messiah is reported to have taught in the Gospel Accounts. No where does the Messiah teach he is Allah, nor does he ask for worship. The Messiah taught to serve Allah and Allah alone ? no other.

There is none good but one, that is, God Mat. 1916-19

So do not say ?Trinity? or ?Three?. Desist, it is much better for you.

Those who do not uphold the teachings of the Messiah be warned Turn to Mat. 721-23, and read the words of the Messiah. You will be told by him on the Day of Judgment ?I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity.?

It was in following the Messiah?s teachings, Truth given to him by our Creator, Allah, that led me to the pure, protected deen of Al-Islam.
I hope this is a word of caution all who profess to follow the teachings of Paul alongside the teachings of the Messiah (pbuh). You are being deceived.
There is only One God, the All Mighty, the All Knowing, Our Creator. He does not beget nor is He begotten. Those who say the Messiah is Allah speak a great falsehood, as the Messiah was just a man ? a mighty Prophet of Allah who will be exalted in the presence of our Creator; something our Creator tells us in the Quran. But the Messiah is not God. There is no God but Allah.
Bear witness I submit to Allah, Lord of all beings.

More evasions. Bring your proof from the bible that Paul intended to overthrow Jesus' teachings in favour of a pagan religion, thanks.

Paul taught the need for a blood sacrifice Eph.17; Rom.58
Paul taught the life, death, and resurrection - needed for Allah's grace through an intermediary in the Messiah Rom.109, Ph. 28-9, Rom. 109-11

That's not counting the proven addition inserted into the Bible to bolster the pagan Trinitarian doctrine I John 57

Paul does not teach what the Messiah is reported to teach.

Paul
"For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." Rom. 149
The Messiah
"Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;" Luke 2038

Paul
"The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Rom. 139
The Messiah
"And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Matt. 2237-40

Paul
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace." Eph. 17
"who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification." Rom. 425
The Messiah
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 614-15

Paul
"for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men." II Cor.821
"Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all men." Rom. 1217
"he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men." Rom. 1418
"just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved." I Cor. 1033
The Messiah
"But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God." Luke 1615
"Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets." Luke.626

Paul
"All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Rom. 212
The Messiah
"He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day." John 1248

Paul
"I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me." Rom. 79-10
The Messiah
"And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." Matt. 1917

Paul
"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." I Cor. 415
"I appeal to you for my child, Ones'imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment." Phil. 110
The Messiah
"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven." Matt. 239

Paul
"so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 521
The Messiah
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 524

Paul
"And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers," I Cor. 1228
"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers," Eph. 411
"For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth." I Tim. 27
"For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher," II Tim. 111
Messiah
"But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one Teacher, and you are all brethren." Matt. 238

Paul
"For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed." I Cor. 57
"And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Eph. 52
Messiah
"Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.'" Matt. 913, Mat. 127

And this is just the tip of the iceberg in deviation of Paul's teachings from the Messiah's.

Let's get to the crux of the matter The Sacrifice.

Paul states
"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." I Cor. 1512-14

This is a falsification test. If it can be proven that the Messiah was not resurrected, then the faith of Christians is in vain - based on falsehood. There wasn't a Sacrifice.

We won't use the Quran at all. Let's us turn to the Bible and see what Paul teaches against what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to say.

Paul gives clear definition of what the resurrection will be like, even stating what the Messiah's reported resurrection was
"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven." I Cor. 1535-47

Paul makes it crystal clear The resurrected body is a spiritual body.

What does the Messiah (pbuh) say, according to the reports in the Gospel accounts
"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them." Luke 2436-43

Proof is given from your own Bible. If you won't believe the Messiah (pbuh), who will you believe?
The Messiah was not resurrected, nor was he slain. Your faith is in vain.

There is no God but Allah. All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all beings.
Bear witness I submit my will to Him.

Proof is given.
Peace.

Hoppean

Reread the part that says "as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today" and ask yourself who isn't getting it. P I bring forth proof from your own Books, as well as the teachings of the Yahudians who claim to be descendants of the Bani Israel, as shown above. A simple Google search will assist in your research as well. If you want to believe the Nazarenes began 100 years ago, go for it. The proof given earlier refutes it, as do current historical teachings.

This is becoming comical, not only did I never say "the Nazarenes began 100 years ago", but now you have completely changed your argument. Now all your claiming is that there was a sect of "Jewish-Christians" called nazarenes ~2000 years ago. So what? Your original claim was that the term "nasara" in the Quran was addressing, among others, this very "Nazarene" group from the 1st century; you then attempted to link this group to the present "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today." Since the only such group, in modern times, that even remotely resembles what you described, is the Messianic jewish congregations, I asked a simple question Did this group (messianic jews) exist in 7th century Arabia?? The answer is obviously not, so how are you applying these Quranic verses to people who didn't even exist at the time of the Quranic revelation??

So you provided evidence that there were groups mentioned in northern Italy, that were called (by others) "Nazarenes". I'm not sure if you realize this, but this proves nothing with regard to continuity between these groups and 1st century "Nazarenes". In fact, it's just more anachronism to assume that the practices of these "sabbath-keeping Christians" in the 12-13th century were a continuation of 1st century "Jewish-Christian" practices. More importantly, what happened after the 13th century, where are your "Nazarenes" for the last 700 years?? Even more importantly, were they in Arabia in the 7th century??

Either way though, you are wrong to suggest that modern messianic jewish practices have anything to do with these other sects called "Nazarenes"; whose practices, themselves, may have nothing to do with each other. And you are certianly far from demonstrating that there was anything resembling a community of "Nazarenes" in Arabia in the 7th century, let alone that the Quran was addressing them.

So to clear up this matter Do you believe that there has been a continuous community of "Nazarenes" since the 1st century?? If so, who are they now?? And who were they in 7th century Arabia??

You are striving to uphold the Nazarenes as an esoteric group that upheld teachings of mysticism.

lol I am "striving" to get you to show me some "Nazarenes" from 7th century Arabia. By the way, it's your own sources which say that the 11th century "Nazarenes" were gnostics, so if they are a continuation of 1st century "Nazarenes" then that would make the latter gnostics as well!

That's not what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to have taught in the Gospel accounts, and he did not say he came to abolish the Law.

Jesus came to fulfill Law, not end it Mat. 517-18, Luke 2444-45
The Law is to be upheld Rom. 331, Rom. 212, Gal. 44, Rom. 71-7
"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Rom. 331

I can't make you believe anything, especially when you don't believe the proof from your own Bible.

lol Paul wrote Romans and Galatians, you know the guy you claim changed Christ's teachings?

See above. Read the New Testament.
Or are you saying there were no Bani Israel who followed the teachings of the Messiah? That can't be your claim because Peter was argued to be the 'minister unto the circumcised' while Paul is the 'minister unto the Gentiles'.

What??

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." Gal. 27-9
?I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable.? Rom. 1516

So to ask what they believed, I need only point to the Bible.

Wait I thought the bible couldn't be trusted? How do we know those quotes weren't later insertions? Oh well nevermind, do you realize that you are gratuitously assuming that the 1st century "Nazarene" sect is identical to the description of the early church in the bible?? What about the ebionites or gnostic sects, don't tell me you're abandoning them now??

You ignore the fact the Byzantine Empire enclosed the Nabatean lands, which comprised the displaced Bani Israel after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Prior to that the teachings of the Nazarenes and Christians went into those lands, as your own Bible states

"Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 210-11

This proves what exactly?? That these are your "Nazarenes in Arabia"?? These were jews and jewish converts, who had not accepted Christ! Wow you just refuted yourself!!

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus." Gal. 117

lol now this one was classic!! So Paul, the evil spiritual father of the "Sabines" aka Roman Catholics, is now responsible for converting Torah observant "Nazarenes" in Arabia?? According to your own "definitions" wouldn't he be responsible for "Sabines" in Arabia, not "Nazarenes"??

If you want to say that the teachings reached as far as Arabia, disappeared for millennia, only to return 100 years ago, you are more than welcome to believe that. But I cannot without proof.

Your "proof" is self conradictory nonsense.

So let's summarize, I asked the following questions

Were there Messianic Jews (or anything resembling them) in 7th century Arabia? No evidence was provided that such a group existed, or how the Quran could be addressing them.
Where does Paul teach pagan polytheism?? After lots of webpaste, presumbaly from islamic propaganda sites, we find no evidence provided for this silly claim.
If Paul was "accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes", whose teachings went to Arabia, why do you contrast his "Christianity" with the "Nazarenes" of the 1st century?? Was Paul a Nazarene or was he a pagan polytheist, teaching a syncretic religion?? No answer was given.
Where does Paul intend to overthrow Jesus' teachings?? I think we got an attempted answer, although it's enough to make Zakir Naik, or the late Ahmed Deedat blush.

raginggaijin

This is becoming comical, not only did I never say "the Nazarenes began 100 years ago", but now you have completely changed your argument. Now all your claiming is that there was a sect of "Jewish-Christians" called nazarenes ~2000 years ago. So what?

So you admit their existence.

Your original claim was that the term "nasara" in the Quran was addressing, among others, this very "Nazarene" group from the 1st century; you then attempted to link this group to the present "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today." Since the only such group, in modern times, that even remotely resembles what you described, is the Messianic jewish congregations, I asked a simple question Did this group (messianic jews) exist in 7th century Arabia?? The answer is obviously not, so how are you applying these Quranic verses to people who didn't even exist at the time of the Quranic revelation??

You are creating a strawman, striving to state I am upholding the Messianic Jews are Nazarenes, when I state the teachings of the Nazarenes are still found in the Messianic Christians today.
As well, you continue

So you provided evidence that there were groups mentioned in northern Italy, that were called (by others) "Nazarenes". I'm not sure if you realize this, but this proves nothing with regard to continuity between these groups and 1st century "Nazarenes". In fact, it's just more anachronism to assume that the practices of these "sabbath-keeping Christians" in the 12-13th century were a continuation of 1st century "Jewish-Christian" practices. More importantly, what happened after the 13th century, where are your "Nazarenes" for the last 700 years?? Even more importantly, were they in Arabia in the 7th century??

Proof is given from Historical record that such groups existed up until the 11th Century and beyond. You dismiss it, demanding proof of proof.

Either way though, you are wrong to suggest that modern messianic jewish practices have anything to do with these other sects called "Nazarenes"; whose practices, themselves, may have nothing to do with each other. And you are certianly far from demonstrating that there was anything resembling a community of "Nazarenes" in Arabia in the 7th century, let alone that the Quran was addressing them.

"The Jews say, 'The Christians stand not on anything'; the Christians say, 'The Jews stand not on anything'; yet they recite the Book. So too the ignorant say the like of them. God shall decide between them on the Day of Resurrection touching their differences." Surah 2113

So to clear up this matter Do you believe that there has been a continuous community of "Nazarenes" since the 1st century?? If so, who are they now?? And who were they in 7th century Arabia??

lol I am "striving" to get you to show me some "Nazarenes" from 7th century Arabia. By the way, it's your own sources which say that the 11th century "Nazarenes" were gnostics, so if they are a continuation of 1st century "Nazarenes" then that would make the latter gnostics as well!

lol Paul wrote Romans and Galatians, you know the guy you claim changed Christ's teachings?

What??

Wait I thought the bible couldn't be trusted? How do we know those quotes weren't later insertions? Oh well nevermind, do you realize that you are gratuitously assuming that the 1st century "Nazarene" sect is identical to the description of the early church in the bible?? What about the ebionites or gnostic sects, don't tell me you're abandoning them now??

This proves what exactly?? That these are your "Nazarenes in Arabia"?? These were jews and jewish converts, who had not accepted Christ! Wow you just refuted yourself!!

lol now this one was classic!! So Paul, the evil spiritual father of the "Sabines" aka Roman Catholics, is now responsible for converting Torah observant "Nazarenes" in Arabia?? According to your own "definitions" wouldn't he be responsible for "Sabines" in Arabia, not "Nazarenes"??

Your "proof" is self conradictory nonsense.

So let's summarize, I asked the following questions

Were there Messianic Jews (or anything resembling them) in 7th century Arabia? No evidence was provided that such a group existed, or how the Quran could be addressing them.
Where does Paul teach pagan polytheism?? After lots of webpaste, presumbaly from islamic propaganda sites, we find no evidence provided for this silly claim.
If Paul was "accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes", whose teachings went to Arabia, why do you contrast his "Christianity" with the "Nazarenes" of the 1st century?? Was Paul a Nazarene or was he a pagan polytheist, teaching a syncretic religion?? No answer was given.
Where does Paul intend to overthrow Jesus' teachings?? I think we got an attempted answer, although it's enough to make Zakir Naik, or the late Ahmed Deedat blush.

So you have nothing to bring forth that refutes what is given above, taken from the Bible you profess to follow and Historical record. Proof is given from the Bible the teachings of Paul are opposite of what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to teach, yet you dismiss them. Pagan practices of blood sacrifice and mediators between man and Allah. It is easy enough to see the creation of the Roman Catholic Church by Paul is steeped in pagan sun worship, mother-son worship, and worship of the pagan gods of old. I can continue to bring quotes from Paul's teachings to show this syncretism, as well as the pagan syncretism found in the Hebrew Bible, which you call the Old Testament.
But as you dismiss them as 'quotes from Islamic websites', you are not here to learn but to argue. Such are your choices.
Yet you bring only anger and explanation based on conjecture and no proof? And you expect me to continue discussion with you when all you have done is scream in indignation? Please, such behavior is unbecoming and does not uphold the teachings found in any of the Books revealed by Allah. You profess to follow the Messiah (pbuh), yet you ignore teachings

End disputes quickly Mat. 525
Love and forgive your enemies Mat. 543-45
Whatever causes you sin, get rid of it Mat. 529-30

I don't think you understand what I am doing here. I'm not here to guide you. As you continue to uphold pagan teachings, and cannot prove they were taught by the Messiah nor authorized in any Book revealed to man, I leave you be to go along the path of your choosing. You will come to know the Truth, though it may be on Judgment Day when it is too late.
I am not here to bring you to Al-Islam. I only bring forth proof of why I believe what I believe. While your words bear witness you uphold nothing as you bring nothing to refute that which is given.
Who was the person who calmly brought proof to show why he believed what he believes?
Who was the person who raged into the aether without bringing anything of substance?
Those who come behind will read our words and see who is given knowledge upheld by proof, and who follows their own desires.

Such is the deen - the way of life - of Al-Islam. )
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

I will bid you 'Peace' and leave you with these teachings from your Bible
Who prostrated himself while praying? Mat. 2639
Who greeted fellow believers with "Peace be unto you!" Luke 2436
Who taught us to fast? Mat. 616
Who taught us to care for the poor, weak, hungry, widow, and orphan? Mat. 540-42, Mat. 61
Who taught to worship God and only God? Luke 48, John 173,12, Luke 1819
Who taught to speak good words to everyone? Mat. 712, Mat. 612, Mark 1125-26
Even the brother of the Messiah (pbuh) taught us to say 'God willing' when we speak of upcoming events. "Insha'Allah" James 415
The Messiah (pbuh) was a Muslim.

Peace. )

Hoppean

So you have nothing to bring forth that refutes what is given above, taken from the Bible you profess to follow and Historical record. Proof is given from the Bible the teachings of Paul are opposite of what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to teach, yet you dismiss them. Such are your choices.

Sir, I have neither the time, nor the inclination to "refute" your insane fantasies about Paul. You're welcome to go read a good Christian commentary on the verses mentioned. Although, frankly, the work is rather childish, and anyone who can think, can see that there is nothing to "refute". You're tilting at windmills. You literally flooded the thread with random, out of context, quotes, then demanded that these "contradictions" be explained. As if anyone was going to write a detailed explanation of each alleged "contradiction". Of course, that was your strategy, wasn't it?? For instance, you claim that the three naratives of Paul's vision are "contradictory", I know exactly where you got this webpaste from, and if you had an ounce of honesty you would have simply gone to a Christian doctor or theologian and read their commentary on those passages. Instead you inserted it in your post, knowing that it was completely irrelevant to your claim that Paul taught "pagan polytheism" and "syncretic religion", or that Paul intended to overthrow Jesus' teachings. You threw it in there, hoping that no one would remember what exactly you were being asked to prove, and so you could claim to be "providing evidence". Thanks for proving what an insane liar you truly are!

If you were at all sincere you would have brought one "contradiction" at a time, presumably the strongest ones, and asked for it to be reconciled. Rather than the "throw everything you can, and hope something sticks" approach.

I don't think you understand what I am doing here. I'm not here to guide you. As you continue to uphold pagan teachings, and cannot prove they were taught by the Messiah nor authorized in any Book revealed to man, I leave you be to go along the path of your choosing.

Here you go again First, you know nothing of my beliefs, as I have not disclosed them to you. Secondly, you are once again insinuating that the bible teaches paganism, which you failed to substaintiate, despite all the webpaste.

I will bid you 'Peace' and leave you with these teachings from your Bible
Who prostrated himself while praying? Mat. 2639
Who greeted fellow believers with "Peace be unto you!" Luke 2436
Who taught us to fast? Mat. 616
Who taught us to care for the poor, weak, hungry, widow, and orphan? Mat. 540-42, Mat. 61
Who taught to worship God and only God? Luke 48, John 173,12, Luke 1819
Who taught to speak good words to everyone? Mat. 712, Mat. 612, Mark 1125-26
Even the brother of the Messiah (pbuh) taught us to say 'God willing' when we speak of upcoming events. "Insha'Allah" James 415
The Messiah (pbuh) was a Muslim.

Have you ever looked up the word "anachronism"??

raginggaijin

Have you ever looked up the word "anachronism"??

Manifest proof of your ignorance of the teachings found in the Quran.
You believe 'Al-Islam' is a new faith created in 600 AD, and the term 'Muslim' an Arabic convention.
The deen of Al-Islam is the creed of Abraham (pbuh), and we were named 'Muslims' - the ones who submit - before the revelation of the Quran and after.

"and struggle for God as is His due, for He has chosen you, and has laid on you no impediment in your religion, being the creed of your father Abraham; He named you Muslims (almuslimeena) aforetime and in this, that the Messenger might be a witness against you, and that you might be witnesses against mankind. So perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and hold you fast to God; He is your Protector -- an excellent Protector, an excellent Helper." Surah 2278

I'm not an Arab. I'm white, blue-eyes, Scot/Irish American born into a Trinitarian Christian family.
Al-Islam is a way of life, revealed in the Quran for all nations, all beings.

Enjoy this life. Surah 1430

Peace.

jaimesss

Could it be that ; 2278 "talk" about some "jew" !

Bigmo

Salaam all,

I was thinking about "Nasara". Are they a sect from Christians or Christians themselves? Can someone please put some light on understand this and answer the following questions. Thanks.

514
514 And from those who have said We are Nasaras, We have taken their covenant and they have forgotten much of what they were reminded of; so We planted between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they had done.

Q1- The aayat above talks about them who call themselves Nasara, either they are Christians or a sect from Christians, the clue in the above aayat is "We planted between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection", so, who could be those possibly?

518
518 And the Yahudis and the Nasaras said We are the children of Allah, and His loved ones. Say Then why does He punish you for your sins? No, you are merely human beings which He has created. He forgives whom He pleases, and He punishes whom He pleases. And to Allah is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is in-between, and to Him is the destiny.

Q2- The key point in 518 is "The Nasaras said that WE are children of Allah". Do Christians or a sect of Christians say this?

551
551 O you who believe, do not take the Yahudis and the Nasaras as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. Allah does not guide the wicked people.

Q3- If we take Christians or a sect of Christians as the Nasaras in the above aayat, are they allies with the Yahudis and vice versa?

930
930 And the Yahudis said Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Nasaras said The Maseeh is the son of Allah. Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. Allah will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

Q4- The Nasaras also said The Maseeh is son of Allah. How they say two different things? i.e., "We are children of Allah" and "The Maseeh is son of Allah"

2113
2113 And the Yahudis say The Nasaras are on nothing, and the Nasaras say The Yahudis are on nothing, while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Q5- Do Christians or a sect from Christians say that "The Yahudis are on nothing"? And how about 551 it says they are allies to each other?

Thanks again.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

The Koran does not categorize people based on sects but faith. There are those who believe among the Christians and those who don't. When the Koran attacks a religious community it is the disbelievers its talking about. The Koran does not generalize religious communities and is non sectarian.

mmkhan

The Koran does not categorize people based on sects but faith. There are those who believe among the Christians and those who don't. When the Koran attacks a religious community it is the disbelievers its talking about. The Koran does not generalize religious communities and is non sectarian.

Salaam Bigmo,

I totally agree with you on the highlighted part above. Thanks bro handshake

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

MaverickMonotheist

Peace mmKhan,

The word Nasara probably in some cases refers to specific Jewish Christians, and in other places to Christians in general. The word "nasara" most likely refers to Christians as Nazarenes. Before the term "Christian" was applied to the disciples of Jesus, they were called by various names, such as "followers of the Way". They were called Nazarenes pretty early on, refering to their belief that Jesus was the Messiah/"Branch" of Zechariah 38 (Hebrew "netzer", "branch&quot

"But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes (Acts 244-5)." (Note this is an orator's accusation of Paul before Roman authorities.)

The only way, in my opinion, to tell the difference in who is being addressed in the Quran is the context. Some of the things that the Nasara are told not to believe would have only been believed by non-Jewish Christians.

Peace,
Joel