Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

Patanahi

Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.

Regarding Jerusalem, please can someone comment on the following post in one of the threads on this forum

QuoteAnyone has any thought on this verse?

10.025

Wa Allahu yadAAoo ila dari alssalami wayahdee man yashao ila siratin mustaqeem.
And / but Allah call to the Home of Peace (Dari al-Salami) He guide whom He pleaseth to a way that is straight.

Does "Home Of Peace" = "Dari al-Salami" = "Yerushaliyem" = "Jerusalem"?
Unqoute

I hope you all bear with me and my comments as I am new to all these discussions and usually ask about things that are commonly known to people here but are great source of learning for me.

Thanks

raginggaijin

Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.

I do not believe Safa and Marwa are located in Jerusalem. You will have to ask Layth for her proof, as I do not believe as she believes.

QuoteAnyone has any thought on this verse?

10.025

Wa Allahu yadAAoo ila dari alssalami wayahdee man yashao ila siratin mustaqeem.
And / but Allah call to the Home of Peace (Dari al-Salami) He guide whom He pleaseth to a way that is straight.

"And God summons to the Abode of Peace, and He guides whomsoever He will to to a straight path; the good-doers the reward most fair and a surplus; neither dust nor abasement shall overspread their faces. Those are the inhabitants of Paradise, therein dwelling immortal." Surah 1025-26

The Abode of Peace is Paradise.

Peace.

Layth

Dear Raging,

I do not believe Safa and Marwa are located in Jerusalem. You will have to ask Layth for her proof, as I do not believe as she believes.

Never knew I came across online as a "she"!

Layth / = Lion (Arabic masculine).

For someone who quotes a lot of Arabic verses and speaks about the meanings of Arabic words...You should have picked that up

Layth

Salam Patanahi,

Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.

Not exactly. What is being said is that there are only one Safa & Marwa, but that these are located in Baka at the Masjid Haram (as the Quran states) - and that Baka is Jerusalem.

raginggaijin

Dear Raging,

Never knew I came across online as a "she"!

Layth / = Lion (Arabic masculine).

For someone who quotes a lot of Arabic verses and speaks about the meanings of Arabic words...You should have picked that up

Apologies, brother. I stand corrected on your gender. -[

However, if you have something to bring to bear as proof for what you believe - from the Quran - I am sure we are all waiting to see it.

Peace.

raginggaijin

Not exactly. What is being said is that there are only one Safa & Marwa, but that these are located in Baka at the Masjid Haram (as the Quran states) - and that Baka is Jerusalem.

Where does the Quran state Masjid Al-Haram is in Jerusalem? If the Quran states this, then bring your proof that the Quran states this.

It is easy to prove Jerusalem contains Masjid Al-Aqsa, the Temple of the Bani Israel that was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Yahudians.
?Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque to the Further Mosque the precincts of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing.? Surah 171

Al-Aqsa Mosque is named here in the Quran, as shown in the Arabic
?Subhana allathee asra biAAabdihi laylan mina almasjidi alharami ila almasjidi alaqsa allathee barakna hawlahu linuriyahu min ayatina innahu huwa alssameeAAu albaseeru? Surah 171

Where is Masjid Al-Aqsa located today? In Jerusalem.

Let?s continue reading, for we see that Allah makes mention of Moses (pbuh)
?And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.'
The seed of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant.? Surah 172-3

So the Bani Israel have guidance given to them through Moses (pbuh).

?And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'
So, when the promise of the first of these came to pass, We sent against you servants of Ours, men of great might, and they went through the habitations, and it was a promise performed.
Then We gave back to you the turn to prevail over them, and We succoured you with wealth and children, and We made you a greater host.
'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple (almasjida), as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to." Surah 174-7

It is easy to prove Masjid Al-Haram is in a valley and not on a mount.

""Our Lord, I have made some of my seed (dhurriyyat&#299 to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Holy House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437

It is easy to prove Masjid Al-Haram has provision brought to it, and is a place of security.

?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

What provision is brought to Jerusalem to be fed to the poor and well fed, as the Quran instructs? None. No sacrifices occur there at all.
Yet every year sacrifices are made at Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca, and the bounty sent to the poor.
Allah is clear the Kaaba is the place of sacrifice/donation Surah 595-97, 2233

Are you saying Ge'ullim called 'Baka' in parenthesis is Bakka in the Quran. Is this your claim?
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/jerusalem_93.jpg

This map is your proof, Layth? Where is your proof from the Quran, Layth?

Layth / = Lion (Arabic masculine).

For someone who quotes a lot of Arabic verses and speaks about the meanings of Arabic words...You should have picked that up

"Farrat min qaswaratin" Surah 7451
"fleeing -- before a lion (qaswaratin)?" Surah 7451

Now I understand why I did not make a connection with 'Lion' and 'Layth'.
I study the Quran. I have no idea what you are studying for your guidance.

The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
http//www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03919
Laish = "lion" n pr m

father of Phaltiel, the man to whom king Saul gave his daughter Michal in marriage even though she was already married to David n pr loc
an early name for Dan, a town in northern Israel
a place north of Jerusalem; site unknown

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Judah

Lion of Judah and Judaism
"The lion of Judah on the coat of arms of Jerusalem

http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Jerusalem-coat-of-arms.svg

Within Judaism, the Biblical Judah (in Hebrew Yehuda) is the original name of the Tribe of Judah - traditionally symbolized by a lion. In Genesis, the patriarch Jacob ("Israel&quot refers to his son Judah as a Gur Aryeh , a "Young Lion" (Genesis 499) when blessing him. In Jewish naming tradition the Hebrew name and the substitute name are often combined as a pair, as in this case."

Why are you are striving to bring people to the ways of the Yahudians - the Jews - and to a Temple on a mount that was destroyed twice, where no provision is brought to it, in a territory that is not secure?

"God took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel; and We raised up from among them twelve chieftains. And God said, 'I am with you. Surely, if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My Messengers and succour them, and lend to God a good loan, I will acquit you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whosoever of you thereafter disbelieves, surely he has gone astray from the right way. "
So for their breaking their compact (meethaqahum) We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of; and thou wilt never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the good-doers." Surah 513

"Or did those in whose hearts is sickness think that God would not bring to light their rancour? Did We will, We would show them to thee, then thou wouldst know them by their mark; and thou shalt certainly know them in the twisting of their speech; and God knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30

Bring your proof.
Explanation is not proof.

All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all beings. All Mighty, All Knowing, Seer.
He does not make mistakes, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052

Peace.

KDC501

The Quran says Bakka is the place the pilgrimage and not Mecca. Bakka is in Jerusalem. It has existed in Jerusalem for thousands of years. Moreover Abraham most likely lived near Jerusalem and it was the place where he was about to sacrifice his son. Why else do you think the Jews built Jerusalem in the area where it is now???

396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds
397 In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.

In addition there is not a single verse in the Quran that states that Mecca is where the sacred masjid resided. Also there is tons of evidence that show that the city of Mecca didn?t even exist prior to the 400 AD. How can a city of great religious importance not have one single record of its existence prior to 400 AD??? If Mecca existed before Jerusalem (as the ?muslim scholars who fabricate nonsense would like you to believe? )Why isn?t there no record of Mecca???

In adition why are arguing about the proofs from the Quran and bringing up futile wikilinks about Lions of Judah??? What does that have to do with any of the ayats in the Quran???

Wakas

peace KDC501,

The Quran says Bakka is the place the pilgrimage

No it does not.

In addition there is not a single verse in the Quran that states that Mecca is where the sacred masjid resided.

Correct. Just like there is not a single verse in the Quran that states "al hajj to/ila X".

Your translation of 396-97 can be improved to better reflect the possibilities in Arabic, e.g.

396 Indeed, the first house/BYT set-down/placed for mankind was the one with/in/by/at bakka* blessed and a guidance for the beings.
397 In it clear/manifest signs/evidences, the station/status of Abraham, and whoever entered it was securing. And to/for God upon mankind (is) al/the hajj/symposium (at/of) the house/BYT, whoever is able to make a way to it. And whoever conceals/rejects, then truly The God has no need of the beings.

*Classical Arabic meanings can include "distinguishing/ranking above others".

KDC501

peace KDC501,

No it does not.

Correct. Just like there is not a single verse in the Quran that states "al hajj to/ila X".

Your translation of 396-97 can be improved to better reflect the possibilities in Arabic, e.g.

396 Indeed, the first house/BYT set-down/placed for mankind was the one with/in/by/at bakka* blessed and a guidance for the beings.
397 In it clear/manifest signs/evidences, the station/status of Abraham, and whoever entered it was securing. And to/for God upon mankind (is) al/the hajj/symposium (at/of) the house/BYT, whoever is able to make a way to it. And whoever conceals/rejects, then truly The God has no need of the beings.

*Classical Arabic meanings can include "distinguishing/ranking above others".

Correction Bekka is in Jerusalem. And the temple resides in Jerusalem (where the Dome of the Rock is situated) (Mt. Moriah , Marwah in Arabic) where Abraham attempted to sacrifice his son.

This other issue in regards to Hajj , as far as I'm aware of , Pilgrimage has been in the existence since the time of Jews.
If Pilgrimage wasn't necessary why would God place verses in the Quran dealing with the religious rites of Pilgrimage?

2196 Complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation. If one cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. Be conscientious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
2197 The Pilgrimage is in the four known months. So, whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor quarreling in the Pilgrimage. Any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is awareness; and be conscientious of Me O you who possesses intelligence.

Peace,
Kevin

Wakas

peace Kevin,

Correction

You did not correct me in anything. You simply added more information. (I assume to elaborate your view, which is fine, but that is not the same as correcting)

If Pilgrimage wasn't necessary why would God place verses in the Quran dealing with the religious rites of Pilgrimage?

Unfortunately I cannot answer the above as your assumption is part of your conclusion/question. However, if we change the above to the following

If al hajj wasn't necessary why would God place verses in the Quran dealing with the rites of al hajj

When did I say "al hajj" was not necessary? Please re-read what I wrote. It seems you, like many many others, have simply repeated the myth that in The Quran it says something like "al hajj to/ila X".

As a side note, that is not the only problem with such an understanding.

Bigmo

Two nights ago I started reading the book " The Natural Republic ". I read in one the chapters that the Qibla is not Mecca but Jerusalem. At first I was a bit skeptical however after reading a few additional articles I'm starting to think that indeed Jerusalem has to be the Qibla. I was a Christian. And i read the Bible. So far to my knowledge none of the prophets, Jews or Christians could have gone to Mecca for pilgrimage. The Bible places ALOT of emphasis on Jerusalem as the place of pilgrimage. Also the Quran did say in Sura 396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
I always thought that the word Bakka was an old word for the city of Mecca however to my astonishment there is a place called Bakka in Jerusalem! Another issue that bothered me was why was Prophet Mohammad so preoccupied with fighting the Byzantium army unless it was of great importance??? And if the Kaaba in Mecca was the original Qibla why is it according to Islamic History that Muhammad prayed in the direction of Jerusalem during the period the Quran was being revealed. The writers of this book make very strong arguments to support the theory that Jerusalem (where the dome of the rock is situated ) is the focal point. I'm beginning to think so to. Does anyone have any comments on this particular topic?

Maybe its Beersheba.

http//www.firstthings.com/blogs/spengler/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=784

Also

http//brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1230.0

As fas as Haj, this is a tradition that God gave all mankind. I think the Kaa'ba was used by the pagans of Mecca until monotheism came there. But it was not an exceptional event. The only exceptional aspect of the Kaa'ba was Muhammad was from there and therefore the Koran talked about it. However every nation has rites and pilrimages of some sort. I do not see any Abrahamic com=nnection. later Muslim authorities, fearing other places might make their own Haj, tried to give Mecca an exclusivity. Hence the need to connect it with Abraham and Hagar. Abraham and Hagar were in South Palestine and not Mecca.

22.34. To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your Allah is One Allah. submit then your wills to Him (in Islam) and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,-

So I see Mecca and the Ka'aba as an ancient Arab house of worship that God wanted it to be monotheist. Many of the rites Muslims do probably were done by the pagans of mecca but to their deities and gods. Rituals and rites are among all nations, but its the montheism that the Koran is looking at.

22.36-37. The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah. in them is (much) good for you then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice) when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful. It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

Peace!

raginggaijin

The only exceptional aspect of the Kaa'ba was Muhammad was from there

Where does it say this in the Quran?

Peace.

Layth

Salam,

Just to note, some point on why I am a believer in Jerusalem being the Bakka of the Quran

Bakka is the name of the site of the pilgrimage. Bakka is the name given to Jerusalem in maps as well as in the Bible (Pslams);
All followers of Abraham (Jews, Nazarenes) know Jerusalem as the "holy site"...None of them heard of Mecca;
The Dome of the Rock houses a stone on which Abraham supposeldy was about to sacrifice his son "maqama/station/trial of Abraham". The Quran tells us that such place lies "within" the Temple/Shrine as it does in Jerusalem - not "without" as it does in Mecca;
The Muslism prayed towards Jerusalem since the early days of the prophet and acknowledge it as the "1st Qibla";
The Quran speaks of "figs and olives" as being associated with the holy shrine. These things are native to Palestine/Jerusalem, not Mecca Arabia;
The Quran speaks of a "raised ceiling" on the holy shrine. This fits the Dome of the Doem of the Rock, but not the flat roof on Mecca;
The Dome of the Rock is a building with 8 sides, which corresponds to God's throne being carried by "eight" - no such symbolysim in Mecca;
The Quran prophecises that the Children of Israel will concur the area of the Temple/Masjid. This has become true of Jerusalem, but will never be true with Mecca.

Regards,

raginggaijin

Just to note, some proof from the Quran to show why I do not believe the points you bring forth.

Salam,

Just to note, some point on why I am a believer in Jerusalem being the Bakka of the Quran

Bakka is the name of the site of the pilgrimage. Bakka is the name given to Jerusalem in maps as well as in the Bible (Pslams);
Baca (Hebrew 'emeq habakka&#039 Psalm 841-12, Surah 396

I am told this ?Valley of Bakka? is not the same spoken of in the Quran. After all, Zion is in Jerusalem, right?
Let us turn to the Bible to see if their teachings refute their claims.

We know the Temple in Jerusalem is not the station of Abraham, as Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Farthest Mosque found in Jerusalem, is named in the Quran. Surah 171
Allah gives description of this Temple and its destruction ? twice ? in the Quran. It is the Temple of the Children of Israel. 174-7,1760
This Temple was created by Solomon (pbuh) and is the qiblah of the Bani Israel and the Yahudians.

Solomon's qiblah I Kings 822-44

There is reference to the House of Allah in the Bible, even though the polytheists are adverse to admitting it..
Isaiah 11-18 speaks of the Yahudians, the destruction of their lands and homes, and their festivals while in exile.

"Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city." Isa. 17

This was during the exile of the Yahudians after the first destruction of the Temple, and prior to the rebuilding by Cyrus the Persian.

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." Isa. 111-14

With the Temple destroyed, where would the Bani Israel go for their ?solemn meeting?
What courts of Allah were ?trampled? in new moon feasts when the Temple was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar?

Cyrus the Persian is named Messiah in Isaiah 451 ? liberator of the Yahud during their captivity in Babylon. He decreed the reconstruction of the Temple. His successor Darius I, known as Dhul-Qarnain in the Quran, is credited with creation of the wall of Derbent in the Caucasus Mountains and is written in the Bible to have completed construction of the second Temple in Jerusalem.

People say there is no indication of Pilgrimage in the Bible, yet the Quran shows Moses (pbuh) designated a specific day to contend with the Magi of Pharoah.

"'Your tryst shall be upon the Day of the Ornament (yawmu alzzeenati). Let the people be mustered at the high noon.'" Surah 2059

If it is in the Quran, which verifies the previous Books, we will find some indication of this in the previous Books.

Moses (pbuh) asked Pharaoh to take his people 3 days into the wilderness to give thanks to Allah, PRIOR to their leaving Egypt, before given their rites of devotion Hag Sukkot, Hag ha-Mazzot, and Hag Shabu'ot?

Hajj/Hag Ha-Sukkot Exo. 109, Exo. 51, Exo. 318, Exo. 134, Exo. 2314-17, Exo 3422-24, Deut 1613-16, Neh. 89-12, Neh. 21, Lev. 239-21, Est. 89

"And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." Exo. 51
"And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD." Exo. 109

Allah is clear He gave each nation acts of devotion (shaAAa-iri) Surah 52, 2232, 2234, 2236, 2267

Yahudians follow their rites given by Allah through Moses and Aaron (pbut).

All followers of Abraham (Jews, Nazarenes) know Jerusalem as the "holy site"...None of them heard of Mecca;
"No; Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim and one pure of faith; certainly he was never of the idolaters." Surah 367
"And they say, 'Be Jews or Christians and you shall be guided.' Say thou 'Nay, rather the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith; he was no idolater.'" Surah 2135
"Or do you say, "Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes -- they were Jews, or they were Christians"?' Say 'Have you then greater knowledge, or God? And who does greater evil than he who conceals a testimony received from God? And God is not heedless of the things you do.'" Surah 2140

Where is your proof none of them heard of Mecca? Can you show this in the Quran?

The Dome of the Rock houses a stone on which Abraham supposeldy was about to sacrifice his son "maqama/station/trial of Abraham". The Quran tells us that such place lies "within" the Temple/Shrine as it does in Jerusalem - not "without" as it does in Mecca;
The House is the maqami, place of Abraham Surah 2125, 397, 2226
?And when We appointed the House to be a place of visitation for the people, and a sanctuary, and 'Take to yourselves Abraham's station for a place of prayer.' And We made covenant with Abraham and Ishmael 'Purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that cleave to it, to those who bow and prostrate themselves.'? Surah 2125

?And there is none of us but has an assigned place (maqamun),? Surah 37164

Nowhere in the Quran does it designate ?maqami? as a fixed position like a rock or a pair of feet indented in the ground, but as a sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah.

?Say 'O my people, act according to your station (makanatikum); I am acting. And assuredly you will know who shall possess the Abode Ultimate. Surely the evildoers will not prosper.'? Surah 6135
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station (maqamee) and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And as for the night, keep vigil a part of it, as a work of supererogation for thee; it may be that thy Lord will raise thee up to a laudable station (maqaman).? Surah 1779

The Muslism prayed towards Jerusalem since the early days of the prophet and acknowledge it as the "1st Qibla";
Where is your proof from the Quran to back up your claims the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) faced Jerusalem since the early days? The Prophet Muhammad turned his face to the heavens, not Jerusalem. Surah 2144

"We have seen thee turning thy face about in the heaven; now We will surely turn thee to a direction that shall satisfy thee. Turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque (almasjidi alharami); and wherever you are, turn your faces towards it. Those who have been given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord; God is not heedless of the things they do." Surah 2144

You are saying the polytheists are better guided than those who upheld only what Allah revealed? Show us the command to face Jerusalem in the Quran if you speak truthfully.
If you say Jerusalem is Masjid Al-Haram, you run into a problem...
...The People of the Book - the Yahudians and Nazarene - has a facing before Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2142
So did the Yahud and Nazarene face Jerusalem first or didn't they? Bring proof from the Quran to support your belief.

The Prophet Muhammad followed only what Allah revealed Surah 650, 7203-204, 1015, 469

Muhammad did not know what was the Book, so he could not know the teachings of the previous Books Surah 4252, 2151, 123, 7157-158, 2948, 622, 16103, 4113, 323, 366

Ummi/Illiterate means ?No Knowledge of the Book?. Surah 278, 320, 375, 7157-158, 622

Muhammad (pbuh) was taught salat Surah 2239
"And if you are in fear, then afoot or mounted; but when you are secure, then remember God, as He taught you the things that you knew not." Surah 2239

The Quran speaks of "figs and olives" as being associated with the holy shrine. These things are native to Palestine/Jerusalem, not Mecca Arabia;
"By the fig and the olive and the Mount Sinai and this land secure!" Surah 951-3
"and a tree issuing from the Mount of Sinai that bears oil and seasoning for all to eat." Surah 2320

Mount Sinai is in the lands of Midian, known as Nabatea, not Jerusalem. The Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were exiled from this land and settled in Mecca.

Jerusalem is not a secure territory, nor is it peaceful. Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The ruins of the Temple precincts are still seen today, and conflict and violence rages there daily.
Yet Masjid Al-Haram, still standing today and surrounding the Kaaba, remains a place of peace even to this day. When it is attacked, the intruders are destroyed immediately, never to attack again.

The town that expelled the Prophet (pbuh) was destroyed
?How many a city that was stronger in might than thy town which has expelled thee have We destroyed! And there was no helper for them.? Surah 4713
?Indeed they were near to startling thee from the land, to expel thee from it, and then they would have tarried after thee only a little ?? Surah 1776
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4
?We already seized them with the chastisement, yet they abased not themselves to their Lord nor were they humble;? Surah 2376

The Temple in Jerusalem ? Masjid Al-Aqsa - was destroyed in 70 AD.
Petra was destroyed after the 4th Centry (500 AD).
Masjid Al-Haram still stands today

The Quran speaks of a "raised ceiling" on the holy shrine. This fits the Dome of the Doem of the Rock, but not the flat roof on Mecca;
Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba.

If your criteria is height
The Dome of the Rock is 35 meters tall.
Masjid Al-Haram is 89 meters tall, with numerous raised ceilings inside of it.
The Kaaba is inside Masjid Al-Haram. The Kaaba is not Masjid Al-Haram.

The Dome of the Rock is a building with 8 sides, which corresponds to God's throne being carried by "eight" - no such symbolysim in Mecca;
For your information The inner courtyard of Masjid Al-Haram that contains the Kaaba has 8 sides, and the building has 8 domes around the top of it

http//navedz.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/masjid-al-haram-aerial-view-3.jpg

Where does it say the House will have 8 sides? Give proof from the Quran if you speak truthfully.
Will any building with 8 sides be a symbol of Allah's Throne being carried by 8 or are you striving to give interpretation to an allegorical ayat. Surah 37

Are you saying the Dome of the Rock is the Throne of Allah? Is that your claim? Because the Quran refutes this.

"God there is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His Throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-high, the All-glorious." Surah 2255

"And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the waters -- that He might try you, which one of you is fairer in works. And if thou sayest, 'you shall surely be raised up after death,' the unbelievers will say, 'This is naught but a manifest sorcery.'" Surah 117

"And thou shalt see the angels encircling about the Throne proclaiming the praise of their Lord; and justly the issue shall be decided between them; and it shall be said, 'Praise belongs to God, the Lord of all Being.'" Surah 3975
"Those who bear the Throne, and those round about it proclaim the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they ask forgiveness for those who believe 'Our Lord, Thou embracest every thing in mercy and knowledge; therefore forgive those who have repented, and follow Thy way, and guard them against the chastisement of Hell." Surah 407

The Quran prophecises that the Children of Israel will concur the area of the Temple/Masjid. This has become true of Jerusalem, but will never be true with Mecca.
Gog and Magog will come from every elevated place, not the Bani Israel.

"There is a ban upon any city that We have destroyed; they shall not return till, when Gog and Magog are unloosed, and they slide down out of every slope, and nigh has drawn the true promise, and behold, the eyes of the unbelievers staring 'Alas for us! We were heedless of this; 'nay, we were evildoers.'" Surah 2195-97

All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all beings.
Him alone do I serve, and Him alone do I beseech for help.

Peace.

Patanahi

Salam Patanahi,

Not exactly. What is being said is that there are only one Safa & Marwa, but that these are located in Baka at the Masjid Haram (as the Quran states) - and that Baka is Jerusalem.

Hi Layth, Can you please advise your comments about that Safa & Marwa i.e. located in Makkah http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Safa_and_Al-Marwah

Patanahi

Muslism prayed towards Jerusalem since the early days of the prophet and acknowledge it as the "1st Qibla";

Regards,

Regarding the point mentioned about 1st Qiblah and the change in Qiblah (focal point) in the above post, one of my friend told me the following points about change Qiblah (focal point)

As per verses 675-78, Allah showed Ibraheem (AS) the system of governance of skies and earth for his nation to finally conclude that they should not ascribe partners to Allah;
Therefore, verse 2144 points out that as a result of Messenger?s frequent turning to skies (as per 675-7, where the conclusion was drawn to revert back (from previous frequent turning to skies) to the first house built as a Qiblah/focal point);
Accordingly I was told that, the points about 1st Qiblah/change in Qiblah/etc are discussed and believed based on corrupt historic records which are not in line with Quranic verses. Therefore, the question about muslims facing Jerusalem earlier, etc does not arise and cannot be justified in the light of Quran.

Please can people on this forum comment on the above to help me understand the context of above verses in relation to Qiblah/change of Qiblah.

Regards

Bigmo

Where does it say this in the Quran?

Peace.

Chapter 106

For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish,
Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer,-
Let them adore the Lord of this House,
Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger).

These rituals existed probably prior to Islam, as Reza Aslan noted. It was done to honor the gods of Mecca. The Koran says we should perform all worship to God alone. Hence the change that Islam brought. How you perform the ritual is not relevant just like how you pray is not relevant. Its why you pray and most of all to whom.

Reza Aslan, No God but God

In contrast, paganism among the sedentary societies of Arabia had developed from its earlier and simpler manifestations into a complex form of neo-animism, providing a host of divine and semi-divine intermediaries who stood between the creator god and his creation. This creator god was called Allah, which is not a proper name but a contraction of the word al-ilah, meaning simply "the god." Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs. Though a powerful deity to swear by, Allah's eminent status in the Arab pantheon rendered him, like most High Gods, beyond the supplications of ordinary people. Only in times of great peril would anyone bother consulting him. Otherwise, it was far more expedient to turn to the lesser, more accessible gods who acted as Allah's intercessors, the most powerful of whom were his three daughters, Allat ("the goddess&quot, al-Uzza ("the mighty&quot, and Manat (the goddess of fate, whose name is probably derived from the Hebrew word mana, meaning "portion" or "share&quot. These divine mediators were not only represented in the Kaaba, they had their own individual shrines throughout the Arabian Peninsula Allat in the city of Ta'if; al-Uzza in Nakhlah; and Manat in Qudayd. It was to them that the Arabs prayed when they needed rain, when their children were ill, when they entered into battle or embarked on a journey deep into the treacherous desert abodes of the Jinn-those intelligent, imperceptible, and salvable beings made of smokeless flame who are called "genies" in the West and who function as the nymphs and fairies of Arabian mythology.

There were no priests and no pagan scriptures in pre-Islamic Arabia, but that does not mean the gods remained silent. They regularly revealed themselves through the ecstatic utterances of a group of cultic officials known as the Kahins. The Kahins were poets who functioned primarily as soothsayers and who, for a fee, would fall into a trance in which they would reveal divine messages through rhyming couplets. Poets already had an important role in pre-Islamic society as bards, tribal historians, social commentators, dispensers of moral philosophy, and, on occasion, administrators of justice. But the Kahins represented a more spiritual function of the poet. Emerging from every social and economic stratum, and including a number of women, the Kahins interpreted dreams, cleared up crimes, found lost animals, settled disputes, and expounded upon ethics. As with their Pythian counterparts at Delphi, however, the Kahins' oracles were vague and deliberately imprecise; it was the supplicant's responsibility to figure out what the gods actually meant.
Although considered the link between humanity and the divine, the Kahins did not communicate directly with the gods but rather accessed them through the Jinn and other spirits who were such an integral part of the Jahiliyyah religious experience. Even so, neither the Kahins, nor anyone else for that matter, had access to Allah. In fact, the god who had created the heavens and the earth, who had fashioned human beings in his own image, was the only god in the whole of the Hijaz not represented by an idol in the Kaaba. Although called "the King of the Gods" and "the Lord of the House," Allah was not the central deity in the Kaaba. That honor belonged to Hubal, the Syrian god who had been brought to Mecca centuries before the rise of Islam.

Despite Allah's minimal role in the religious cult of pre-Islamic Arabia, his eminent position in the Arab pantheon is a clear indication of just how far paganism in the Arabian Peninsula had evolved from its simple animistic roots. Perhaps the most striking example of this development can be seen in the processional chant that tradition claims the pilgrims sang as they approached the Kaaba

Here I am, O Allah, here I am.
You have no partner,
Except such a partner as you have.
You possess him and all that is his.

This remarkable proclamation, with its obvious resemblance to the Muslim profession of faith-"There is no god but God"-may reveal the earliest traces in pre-Islamic Arabia of what the German philologist Max Muller termed henotheism the belief in a single High God, without necessarily rejecting the existence of other, subordinate gods.

http//rezaaslan.com/

Even Sunni tradition acknowledges this. However by invoking Abraham, they gave it an exception. The running back and forth (safa wal marwa) is a prime example of this. This incident (Hagar and baby Ismael) is reported in the Old Testament in Bersheeba. However they made it into a Meccan tradition, hence giving Mecca its exception. This saved the Meccan dynasties from alternative pilgrimages being set up in different parts of the Muslim world that can challenge their authority. The annual pilgrimages was used by the Meccans to gain status and loyalty.

After the civil war during the Ummayids, a rival pilgrimage was made, this time in Jerusalem. It was built on the same time as the schism between the Ummayids occurred. Many of these rituals were established by the political class. Their is a fmous hadith dispute regarding this where one hadiths says pilgrimage should only be to Mecca and Medina, and another saying Jerusalem also. It is believed that this was the back and forth between the rival clans when one Ummayid dynasty established its rule in jerusalem with the other in Mecca and Medina. each use hadith to persuade the large Muslim masses to seek pilgrimage there for political and economic reasons. Apparently when the pilgrimagers used to arrive they will make "bai'a" to the ruler. thats the gyraditional way of seeking a loyalty oath. EWho gets them first gets the loyalty. Hence the quarell between the parties as the ruler in Jerusalem wanted the pilgrimagers to come to Jeruysalem first and pledge allegiance to him, then go to Mecca. Being alarmed the Meccan crowd issued the hadith that pilgrimages is only to Mecca and Medina. The ones in Jersualem countered with their own hadith etc.

Rituals are a means to an end and not an end by itself.

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

We should not concern ourselves with type of bickering.

Layth

Salam Iluysha,

Salam dear brother.
Aren't the raised ceiling (dome) and building with 8 sides man-made manifestations. They could be arbitrary, especially as regards point 7. Do you really mean they are also signs? Just a thought, and sorry if I sound stupid. I am not too knowledgeable about this.

The raised ceiling can be argued to be a manmade dsign - thats why I don't normally highlight these points as they are not watertight. As for the 8 sided walls, that has been found to be part of the original foundation of the Dome (see the work on infra-red images of the Dome) and can be strongly argued to be a permanent feature of the Dome for as long as it has existed.

Layth

Salam Patanahi,

Hi Layth, Can you please advise your comments about that Safa & Marwa i.e. located in Makkah http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Safa_and_Al-Marwah

The ones located in Mekka - Arabia, are simply small mounds (hilltops) which it is claimed the wife of Abraham ran back and forth from one to the other 7 times looking for water (does not seem to be a very sharp lady!).

Obviously this story is a complete falsehood as Abraham never abondoned his wife/child, nor was there any such incident.

The "true" Safa and Marwa are from the symbols of God associated with the Temple/Masjid and are and have always been a permenant part of the pilgrimage.

Hope that clarifies the issue.

Layth

Salam Patanahi,

Regarding the point mentioned about 1st Qiblah and the change in Qiblah (focal point) in the above post, one of my friend told me the following points about change Qiblah (focal point)

As per verses 675-78, Allah showed Ibraheem (AS) the system of governance of skies and earth for his nation to finally conclude that they should not ascribe partners to Allah;
Therefore, verse 2144 points out that as a result of Messenger?s frequent turning to skies (as per 675-7, where the conclusion was drawn to revert back (from previous frequent turning to skies) to the first house built as a Qiblah/focal point);
Accordingly I was told that, the points about 1st Qiblah/change in Qiblah/etc are discussed and believed based on corrupt historic records which are not in line with Quranic verses. Therefore, the question about muslims facing Jerusalem earlier, etc does not arise and cannot be justified in the light of Quran.

What your friend has concluded does not relate to this subject as the "Qibla change" was done before 2144 (it has been mentioned in 2143) and was istelf the reason the prophet kept searching the heavens as he was unsatisfied with the new Qibla.