Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

Patanahi

The ones located in Mekka - Arabia, are simply small mounds (hilltops) which it is claimed the wife of Abraham ran back and forth....

The "true" Safa and Marwa are from the symbols of God associated with the Temple/Masjid and are and have always been a permenant part of the pilgrimage.

Salam Layth, firstly I would like to clarify that I didn?t mention about what others believe/claim about wife of Abraham ran back and forth?., etc. No, that wasn?t the point.

The only reason I have asked about Al Safa and Al Marwa, was to attempt to find out the location of Masjid Al Haram (Is it Makkah or Jerusalem). Since, you have been using the reference of present day Bakka/Baka/Baca? located in Jerusalem, I thought of checking with you (on similar basis) about the location of the present day Al Safa and Al Marwa which is found near Masjid Al Haram in Makkah.

From you answer, it is not clear to me why the argument of matching Quranic Bakka/Baka/Baca with the present day Bakka/Baka/Baca in Jerusalem is acceptable? While at the same time similar argument of matching (1) Al Safa, (2) Al Marwa with present day Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Makkah is not acceptable for you? Furthermore, on this basis (as we discussed earlier in the same topic on this forum) why Masjid Al Aqsa mentioned in Quran (which is far located Masjid away from Masjid Al Haram) cannot be traced to actual Masjid Haram located in Jerusalem.

The confusion arises in my mind is because if one accepts the argument, then it guides the location of Masjid Al Haram towards Makkah, but if one doesn?t accept the argument, then the location is guiding towards Jerusalem?

For a Quran-alone beginner like me, what shall I do? What should be my focal point? Why are people here who claimed to be Quran-alone followers here are are unable to find the correct location of Masjid Al Haram? Is Quran not clear? or we have ego S(ame like sunnis, haditith, shiites, others) that we cannot unite with earch other?

Bigmo

Salam Layth, firstly I would like to clarify that I didn?t mention about what others believe/claim about wife of Abraham ran back and forth?., etc. No, that wasn?t the point.

The only reason I have asked about Al Safa and Al Marwa, was to attempt to find out the location of Masjid Al Haram (Is it Makkah or Jerusalem). Since, you have been using the reference of present day Bakka/Baka/Baca? located in Jerusalem, I thought of checking with you (on similar basis) about the location of the present day Al Safa and Al Marwa which is found near Masjid Al Haram in Makkah.

From you answer, it is not clear to me why the argument of matching Quranic Bakka/Baka/Baca with the present day Bakka/Baka/Baca in Jerusalem is acceptable? While at the same time similar argument of matching (1) Al Safa, (2) Al Marwa with present day Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Makkah is not acceptable for you? Furthermore, on this basis (as we discussed earlier in the same topic on this forum) why Masjid Al Aqsa mentioned in Quran (which is far located Masjid away from Masjid Al Haram) cannot be traced to actual Masjid Haram located in Jerusalem.

The confusion arises in my mind is because if one accepts the argument, then it guides the location of Masjid Al Haram towards Makkah, but if one doesn?t accept the argument, then the location is guiding towards Jerusalem?

For a Quran-alone beginner like me, what shall I do? What should be my focal point? Why are people here who claimed to be Quran-alone followers here are are unable to find the correct location of Masjid Al Haram? Is Quran not clear? or we have ego S(ame like sunnis, haditith, shiites, others) that we cannot unite with earch other?

Why do you need to know?

raginggaijin

Chapter 106

For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish,
Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer,-
Let them adore the Lord of this House,
Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger).

These rituals existed probably prior to Islam, as Reza Aslan noted. It was done to honor the gods of Mecca. The Koran says we should perform all worship to God alone. Hence the change that Islam brought. How you perform the ritual is not relevant just like how you pray is not relevant. Its why you pray and most of all to whom.

I wanted to see where you were deriving this from; your reasoning from the Quran.
I do not believe the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were expelled from Mecca because Allah does not change His way (sunnati Allahi). When He sends a Messenger to a people, those that reject are destroyed utterly. Mecca would have been destroyed if that is the place of expulsion.
It still stands today and I believe it is where the Prophet and the believers settled after their exile. I have listed the proofs why I believe this throughout this thread.

Proof Midian
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RHRu3VWJg

We should not concern ourselves with type of bickering.

As you wish. )

I pray Allah guides us closer to the Truth, and I bid you 'Peace'. D

Layth

Dear Patanahi,

My appologies if I am not understanding the question properly.

If you are asking "what are the Safa & Marwa"? Then the answer as best derived from the Quran is "they are 2 stone/rock outcroppings which exist at the site of the Masjid AlHaram".

Such rock/stone outcroppings are found both at the site in Mecca - Arabia (the present day Safa & Marwa), as well as the site at Jerusalem (the rock within the Dome of the Rock and the rock under the Dome of the Tablets).

For a Quran-alone beginner like me, what shall I do? What should be my focal point? Why are people here who claimed to be Quran-alone followers here are are unable to find the correct location of Masjid Al Haram? Is Quran not clear? or we have ego S(ame like sunnis, haditith, shiites, others) that we cannot unite with earch other?

God encompasses all space brother - so no matter where you set your face will be towards the face of God.

As for the discussion here - it is one of using the Quran to determine the site for Pilgrimage. As for the lack of clarity, thanks is due to our fellow Sunnis/Shia who have made so much corruption in the teachings of the Quran that it takes such long threads to discuss what should be a black & white case. )

Bigmo

I wanted to see where you were deriving this from; your reasoning from the Quran.
I do not believe the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were expelled from Mecca because Allah does not change His way (sunnati Allahi). When He sends a Messenger to a people, those that reject are destroyed utterly. Mecca would have been destroyed if that is the place of expulsion.
It still stands today and I believe it is where the Prophet and the believers settled after their exile. I have listed the proofs why I believe this throughout this thread.

Proof Midian
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RHRu3VWJg

As you wish. )

I pray Allah guides us closer to the Truth, and I bid you 'Peace'.

I think the Koran said many times that God can indeed destroy(Mecca) if He wanted. As He destroyed the others. However the Koran also says that God will use the believers to punish and defeat them (with the help of the angels). This is repated in many places in the Koran. The triumphant return of the believers to Mecca was the goal here. I think you are making broad arguments. Every prophet has his own biography. Jesus's enemies were not destroyed as such but were punished by the Romans. There might have been some people in Mecca who were believers. Who knows.

Anyways even if you are right, we don't sit all day and discuss the details of Jospeh's life or even Abraham's. So there is no theological value in all of this. Its really a historic debate. But from the verses of the Koran I see the scenario different. I see the rituals that Muslims perform today like stoning the devil, and Tawwaf seven times safa and marwa as basically as a Meccan practice. It is the basic human instinct of worshiping and thanking. But it was done for the Meccan gods and godesses. The Koran tells us that the pagans used to cry out and shout in prayers in that spot. Whne the oran came its goal was to direct that worship to the One God. Because Islam became sectarian, we may have forgotten that rituals and rites are universalist practices. Its available all across mankind's history in all places imaginable. People built temples and have feasts and sacrifices to thank their deities for harvest and providence. But the goal of the Koran is to direct that practice to its rightful owner. As Islam evolved there was a need to create an exclusivity to it. Hence the Abraham connection.

Also I have no problem looking at the OT and Gospel. Its quite clear from the OT that Hagar and Ismael episode was no way near Mecca. It was in bersheeba, a barren desert area. There is also no evidence that Abraham was ever any where near Mecca. He built a place of worship like many other places he built. The Abraham connection is the monotheism connection. The Koran sees worshiping as a universal human instinct. Its paganism thats man made. I think that later Muslim authorities tried to connect the verses of Abraham and Ismael builting a place of worship with the Ka'aba. To give it some exclusivity. They made it appear that the verses was talking about the Ka'aba. Maybe it is, it has no real theological value but it does make it impossible for any rival pilgrimage to occur. The reason why it has no theological value is most of the prophets never went there or performed pilgrimage there. Why should they? And if the other prophets did not perform it then it has no theological values. But all of them built houses of worship for themselves and the believers.

Altars (Hebrew , mizbe'ah, "a place of slaughter or sacrifice&quot in the Hebrew Bible were typically made of earth (Exodus 2024) or unwrought stone (2025). Altars were generally erected in conspicuous places (Genesis 229; Ezekiel 63; 2 Kings 2312; 164; 238.) The first altar recorded in the Hebrew Bible is that erected by Noah (Genesis 820). Altars were erected by Abraham (Genesis 127; 134; 229), by Isaac (Genesis 2625), by Jacob (3320; 351-3), and by Moses (Exodus 1715, Adonai-nissi).

After the theophany on Mount Sinai, in the Tabernacle?and afterwards in the Temple?only two altars were used the Altar of Burnt Offering, and the Altar of Incense.

The first altar of this type was made to be moved with the Children of Israel as they wandered through the wilderness. Its construction is described in Exodus 271-8. It was square, 5 cubits in length and in breadth, and 3 cubits in height. It was made of shittim wood, and was overlaid with brass. In each of its four corners projections, called "horns" (keranot), rose up. The altar was hollow, except for a mesh grate which was placed inside half way down, on which the wood sat for the burning of the sacrifices. The area under the grate was filled with earth. There were rings set on two opposite sides of the altar, through which poles could be placed for carrying it. These poles were also made of shittim wood and covered with brass.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_(Bible)

The first record in the Bible of animal sacrifices was at the gate of the Garden of Eden.
"In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor." Genesis 43-5 (NIV).

Scholars tell us that the Hebrew of the first phrase, "In the course oftime," suggests that this offering of sacrifices was a recurring event. It is actually implied in Genesis 321 where it says, "The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." The clothing of skins with which God covered Adam and Eve had to have come from animals that were killed.

Why did the Lord look with favor on Abel's sacrifice and did not look with favor on Cain's offering? It was because the sacrifice of "the firstborn of his flock" carried a symbolism certainly known and understood by both Cain and Abel. It was an acted out prophecy of a coming Savior who would give His life to save the human race.

Offerings of clean animals were offered by Noah after the flood when the ark came to rest on the top of Mt. Ararat (Genesis 820).

Later Abraham built altars and offered sacrifices in the land of Canaan (Genesis 127,8; Genesis 134,1.

When Israel escaped from their slavery in Egypt, they came to Mt. Sinai. There God gave them instructions to build a tent tabernacle they would carry as a portable meeting place while they were on their way to the Promised Land of Canaan. This tent tabernacle and its services were designed to give Israel an object lesson of the plan of salvation God had put in place "before the creation of the world." 1 Peter 120.

This plan of salvation involved God sending His Son to be born into the human race, live a perfect life, then die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. His sacrifice was foretold by the slaying of lambs and other animals in the tabernacle services.

Each morning and each evening a lamb was killed on the altar of burnt offerings. In the springtime at the Passover celebration, the Passover lamb was killed.

John the Baptist recognized this symbolism. When He saw Jesus passing by he said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 129 (NIV).

Paul understood the meaning of the sacrifices for he said, "For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." 1 Corinthians 57 (NIV).

http//www.biblebay.org/article.php?id=31

So there are many ka'abas and many Eids and many tawwafs. ka'aba was just a Meccan one. Abraham built many Ka'bas.

At least thats how I see it.

raginggaijin

Salam,

If your proof is from the Quran then there will be no contest as to me accepting it.

That Zion is in Jerusalem is exactly the reason I quoted the Bible as mentioning Bakka as being in Jerusalem - not Mecca.

Which leads to a problem Jerusalem was not existant in the time of David (pbuh), as it was Solomon (pbuh) who built the Temple. You create an anachronism.

As well, the Temple was destroyed and the Bani Israel were exiled, yet they still performed pilgrimage, as shown in Isaiah 11-14.

As for the Aqsa mosque being in Jerusalem and not the "furthest" that is your interpretation linking a modern name to a Quranic verse which makes no sence. The Aqsa mosque that you speak of was built some decades after the Quran was revealed - so it could not be the one referred to. More importantly, the word "aqsa" being "furthest" is more befitting a mosque not on Earth as we see from the various verses which speak of the prophet being in a place not on this earth.

Allah states Al-Aqsa Mosque was there during the time of revelation with Muhammad (pbuh) by naming it in Surah 171 and describing the precincts - not a building - are what comprises it, and then goes on in Surah 172-7 to describe its destruction twice.

Can you bring a sacrifice to Jerusalem? No.
Is Jerusalem secure? No.
Is Jerusalem peaceful? No.

I never quoted the Quran here for you to ask me for a verse. Please re-read my point. If you find the Jews/Nazarenes acknowledging Mecca as the place of pilgrimage and not Jerusalem, please show me such evidence as I am willing to reconsider this point.

So you admit you have nothing from the Quran to support your view. Thank you.

Now you run into some problems.
There was pilgrimage through Bakka pre-dating the Temple in Jerusalem. This was to the House that was standing before the Temple was built.
You state the pilgrimage was to Bakka, but even the previous Books show it was on the way to the House you passed through the valley of Bakka

"Blessed are they that dwell in thy house they will be still praising thee. Selah.
Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools." Psalm 844-6

When the Temple of the Bani Israel was destroyed by the Babylonian armies of Nebuchadnezzar, there were feasts and new moon festivals at the House. This was not in Jerusalem as the Yahudians were taken as slaves to Babylon and were not liberated until Cyrus the Persian freed them.
What House were these feasts and new moon festivals taking place with Jerusalem destroyed and the people kept out?
The first House in Mecca, which at that time was called Bakka.

Actually, Maqam can be a fixed position as in Solomon being told by the Jinn "I will bring you it (the palace) before you rise from maqamuk".

Showing where Solomon (pbuh) was, so too was his sphere of duty. Even as he left his kingdom to visit other nations, he took his sphere of duty with him, by the command of Allah, even to sun worshippers who ended up submitting to Allah, the All Mighty, All Knowing.

Abraham (pbuh) established the first House in service to Allah. Where that House stands will be the maqami of Abraham (pbuh), and Allah will bring provision to that area, and make that area secure and sacred.

No provision is brought to Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is not secure.
Only the precincts of Masjid Al-Aqsa are blessed by Allah, the area where the Temple of the Bani Israel once stood. Not the city of Jerusalem.

The Quran tells us that the Bayt/Temple has the Maqam "inside it" which is not the case with Mecca.

The Bayt al-Atiq is inside Masjid Al-Haram. Your strawman is refuted time and time again The Kaaba is not Masjid Al-Haram. Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba.
The Kaaba, the Bayt al-Atiq - the Ancient House - is inside Masjid Al-Haram.

As for the Maqam being the House, that is not from the Quran - the Quran says "take the Maqam as you Salat point" - never "the house is the maqam".

Nothing about a 'salat point'. (musallan) is not 'salat point'. You don't call a Muslim a submitting point, or a Muminin a believing point. 'Muslim' for 'Those who submit' and 'Muminin' for 'Those who believe'.
(musallan) is 'those who pray/study'. Surah 7022, 7443, 1074

"And when We appointed the House to be a place of visitation for the people, and a sanctuary, and 'Take to yourselves Abraham's station (maqami ibraheema) for those who pray (musallan).' And We made covenant with Abraham and Ishmael 'Purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that cleave to it, to those who bow and prostrate themselves.'" Surah 2125

The Ancient House, Bayt Al-Atiq, Bayt Al-Haram, is inside Masjid Al-Haram.

"God has appointed the Kaaba (alkaAAbata), the Holy House (albayta alharama), as an establishment for men, and the holy month; the offering, and the necklaces -- that, that you may know that God knows all that is in the heavens and in the earth; and that God has knowledge of everything." Surah 597

"There are things therein profitable to you unto a stated term; thereafter their lawful place of sacrifice is to (ila) the Ancient House (albayti alAAateeqi)." Surah 2233

Convienient that you skip 2143!?

Nothing is skipped. But since you wish to discuss it, let us do so.

"Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom God has guided; but God would never leave your faith to waste - truly, God is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate." Surah 2143

Muhammad is not being addressed. The People of the Book are being addressed in this ayat. The direction they face shows who they follow.
Allah even states He did not appoint the direction they used to face. Doesn't get clearer than that.

Face the old qiblah Disobeying Allah.
Face the qiblah given to Muhammad Obeying Allah.

The Qibla change is the reason for him searching the heavens - because he is unsatisfied. You also have the physical evidence of the mosque with the 2 Qiblas affirming that such a direction took place.

You state Muhammad (pbuh) was unsatisfied. No where in the Quran does it state Muhammad was unsatisfied. No where.
Muhammad was given a qiblah he liked, as he had no qiblah they had prior to this. Muhammad did not know the Book or the faith prior to revelation, so he did not face any qiblah before being given one. Allah did not reveal to him to face any qiblah but Masjid Al-Haram. You cannot prove otherwise.

Which means you run into further problems, since you bring up Masjid Al-Qiblata - the Mosque of Two Qiblahs.
One facing was towards Jerusalem.
One facing was towards Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca.

If Jerusalem was Masjid Al-Haram, then there would not be two qiblahs.
If Masjid Al-Haram was in Petra, then one qiblah would not point toward Mecca.

Who faced towards Jerusalem? The polytheist Yahudians and Nazarene.
Who faced towards Masjid Al-Haram? The believers, the Muslims who submit to Allah.

Petra did indeed expell the prophet and was destroyed by an earthquake in the 6th century AD. If anything, that fixes the timeline of the prophet more accurately than the so called "Hijri" calandar.

The calendar has nothing to do with this discussion. Keep on topic, please.
But thank you for admitting Muhammad and the believers were not expelled from the location of Masjid Al-Haram, as Petra was destroyed.

This is a man made point so I cannot defend it too strongly.

You cannot defend it at all. You want to uphold what man teaches and not Allah? Enjoy this life. Surah 1430

You might have read my other post. The 8 sides were found by infra-red imaging to be part of an older/anceint structure in Jerusalem. As for the Kaaba in Mecca - it has been 4 sided as far back as I can go.

You strive to place symbolism onto a pagan temple of Byzantine origin. When Jerusalem was destroyed the second time, a pagan temple to Jupiter - Zeus - was made on the Mount. That is the Temple you are striving to say is the qiblah, a pagan temple adapted with each conquerer - from pagan to Byzantine to Arab The Dome of the Rock.

You want archeological proof the Dome of the Rock is a mish-mash of constructive elements? D

From the Royal Institute of British Architects, in the 1800s
http//books.google.com/books?id=6utEAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA80&ots=Wy07wOGHko&dq=mochura%20arabia&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=mochura%20arabia&f=false

"We may next consider briefly the details of the two buildings, especially the pillars, the arches, and the wooden tie rods between the columns. It may be noted generally that these buildings, if the Arab historians are trustworthy, belong to a very early period of Moslem art. It may be easy to compare them with Byzantine buildings, but it is almost impossible to find contemporary Arab examples. The Mosque at Damascus, belonging to the same period, is merely a converted Basilica like the Aksah; and the Mosque of 'Amru, Mr. Fergusson informs us, has been rebuilt, so that it is doubtful whether any of the original work remains. Whatever then be the style of the two buildings now under consideration, it cannot be positively said that such a style was not used by the Caliph 'Abd el Melek, because no examples are known of his style which can be contrasted with these his supposed erections. If, moreover, there is any striking structural resemblance in the details of the Dome of the Rock and Dome of the Chain, we should hardly conclude that the one is the work of 'Abd el Melek, but that the other is nearly four hundred years older; for to say the least such a conclusion would be unnatural in the face of the historical evidence. If it be possible that the Caliph built the Dome of the Chain it is equally possible that he built the Dome of the Rock, if it is shown that the two have a similar plan and similar style in their details.

The pillars in the Dome of the Chain are of varied design, but generally speaking of semi-classic or Byzantine outline, and appear to have been taken from some older building. They are tied together by a wooden beam above the capitals, and semi-circular arches spring from them. The pillars in the Dome of the Rock are also of varied design and of early Byzantine character. A wooden beam runs above them and semi-circular arches spring from the beam. The character of the columns can be judged by the sketches* given in illustration of this Paper. I have several times examined both the inner and the outer circle, and made sketches of all the capitals and of several bases. Only three of the capitals under the drum are alike, the rest differ in size, in outline, and in details. The capitals also differ in their state of preservation, but in most cases the volutes and acanthus' leaves have been much defaced, the projecting edges having been knocked off. One of the capitals is evidently placed on a shaft which did not originally belong to it, but which requires a larger capital. The sixteen capitals in the screen are more uniform, and twelve of them differ only in the device between the volutes, one of which devices (given in the illustration t) has been thought to represent a cross, though possibly it is only a trefoil. Two of the capitals in this line are however of entirely different design, and the shafts supporting them are longer than the other shafts. Above the pillars in the screen are blocks now covered with thin marble veneer. In 1874 the construction of these blocks became visible, and it was seen that they surround smaller stone blocks which are square and quite plain. The spaces between are filled with rubble. The blocks above the two capitals, which stand on the longer shafts, are only half as deep as those above the other capitals, so that all the arches spring from one level. There is a difference of several inches in the diameters of the various shafts of the columns. These shafts do not rest immediately on the bases but on layers of lead} differing from \ inches to finch in thickness. The original bases are now covered up with marble flagging, but this was removed in 1874, and it was then found that the bases also differ.in outline and in height, one being only 4 inches high, a second 12, and a third 17 inches. It is clear then that the columns and their bases and capitals are of very heterogeneous character; that they were probably taken from some other building and not expressly made for the Dome of the Rock. It would consequently be unsafe to base any argument on their Byzantine character.

The wooden beam above the pillars is adorned with a wooden cornice which is clamped on to the original square beam and may perhaps be a later addition. In other respects it resembles those wooden beams found in so many early Saracenic buildings, and there does not. appear to be any known example of a Byzantine building having such a beam."

Heterogenous consisting of dissimilar or diverse ingredients or constituents.

Hmm? Please read Sura 17 which I was referring to - that Bani Israel would occupy the place that would have Muslim enter the Masjid as they did the 1st time (the time of conquest of the masjid alharam).

Don't see how Magog & Gog got involved.

Please post the Surah and ayats that you are discussing then, so we can see what exactly you are striving to uphold. If you are trying to say Surah 177 is this interpretation, you are incorrect.

"'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple, as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to. Surah 177

This was the second destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, which destroyed the Bani Israel as a nation. Allah states no nation will return once the command is made against them.

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Surah 1716

Jerusalem was destroyed. The rubble can still be seen today. You cannot refute this.
Look to how those who turned from Allah were dealt with, and pay heed lest you be among the losers.

"We have turned about in this Quran, that they may remember; and it increases them only in aversion." Surah 1741

Peace.

raginggaijin

I think the Koran said many times that God can indeed destroy(Mecca) if He wanted. As He destroyed the others. However the Koran also says that God will use the believers to punish and defeat them (with the help of the angels). This is repated in many places in the Koran. The triumphant return of the believers to Mecca was the goal here. I think you are making broad arguments. Every prophet has his own biography. Jesus's enemies were not destroyed as such but were punished by the Romans. There might have been some people in Mecca who were believers. Who knows.

Interesting explanation. What you think doesn't matter to me, no disrespect intended. If you cannot bring proof to support your explanations, then I see no reason to believe it. I am this way with all people so do not think I am trying to say 'I am right and you are wrong!'. I used to believe the Prophet was expelled from Mecca until proof was given from the Quran that this statement goes against the sunnati Allahi.

Anyways even if you are right, we don't sit all day and discuss the details of Jospeh's life or even Abraham's. So there is no theological value in all of this. Its really a historic debate.

Which is why I bid you 'Peace'.
I won't be asked what you did, and you won't be asked what I did. In the End, it is between each person and Allah to discuss their lives.

May Allah increase us in knowledge.
Peace.

Bigmo

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well- acquainted with (all) that ye do.
It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit In Fire shall they dwell.
The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong.

It seems pretty straight forward to me. He was exiled and that God said he will conquer them (those who exiled him) militarily even if they are fewer and weaker in resources. And it seems its talking about the Sacred Mosque of those who sent him to exile. So I am not sure where your arguments are coming from. Could you elaborate some more?

Umer488

I would like you to read the full post, then answer about everything if you are sincere in finding truth.(Please read the explanation if you are bored of reading the same verses quoted again and again by the previous posters)

"And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence before those who have been vouchsafed
earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou
follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou
shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou
wouldst surely be among the evildoers." (2145)

I must say read this verse with sincerity. In this verse God is asking Muhammad SAWW not to follow the Qiblah of Jews and Christians (i.e., facing towards Jerusalem). This verse proves that Muslims are not going to face Jarusalem.

The whole discussion is vague, everything is proved by the previous post-ers.

Secondly, Bakkah and Makkah are same to anyone who has learned Quraish Dialect of Arabic language (which was the Dialect of Muhammad SAWW) 'm' and 'b' sometimes sound same and Makkah becomes Bakkah.

The most popular verse of Miraj (Prophet's Ascension to Heaven) even proves so

LIMITLESS in His glory is He who transported His servant by night from the Inviolable
House of Worship to the Remote House of Worship - the environs
of which We had blessed - so that We might show him some of Our symbols for, verily, He
alone is all-hearing, all-seeing.(171)

Allah transported Muhammad SAWW from Masjid Al-Haram to Masjid Al-Aqsa. That means Masjid Al-Haram is not in Jerusalem. If we insist in your interpretation then it would become that Prophet SAWW was transported from Jerusalem to Jarusalem which is beyond doubt a false interpretation. Seeing this, it is proved that Masjid Al-Haram (which is our Qiblah according to Quran) is not in Jersusalem unlike your say. Can you prove that masjid-Al-Haram is in Jerusalem after reading the above verse. So it is proved that Muslims are going to face towards Masjid Al-Haram and that is not in Jerusalem

In the verse below then Allah says face towards Masjid Al-Haram

We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now
We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then,
thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your
faces towards it .
And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this
comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.(2144)

Now if you are not satisfied then answer the following questions

Question one If the word "Masjid Al-Haram" is used to mean some place in Jerusalem then HOW was Muhammad SAWW transported from Jerusalem to Jerusalem(171) and still it was a miracle from God>?????

Question two (2145) is telling Muslims not to follow the direction of prayer of Jews (in Jerusalem) so where should we turn our face other than Jerusalem?

Question three (2145) is differentiating the both Qiblahs and asking us to follow the QIBLAH OTHERS THAN THE QIBLAH OF JEWS i.e., Jerusalem. then Allah is also warning those who AFTER COMING GUIDANCE STILL WANT TO FOLLOW THERE ERRANT VIEWS

Now you cannot say Jerusalem is our Qiblah, but if you still know any other Qiblah, we can have a debate over it.

Bigmo

Looking at the verses about Qibla, it seems to me its talking about the Jews and not Christians as Christians have non Qibla. People of the Book in Koran is Jews and not Christians. Also it seems that the verses say that initially it was pointed towards Mecca and then changed to where the Jews prayed or maybe Bersheeba as archeology tells us. This led some pagans to question why are you praying towards a foreign place. The Koran countered by reminding everyone that the Israelite tradition of Jacob and Isaac was a universalist monotheism one and not a ethno-centric Pharisaic one as the Jews around Muhammaed were. If you seperate the Israelite prophets from Judaism (Talmudic Judaism) then it seems the way I see it.

Just my two cents although I don't really care about this subject.

raginggaijin

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

They are at Masjid Al-Haram at this time, starting the 4 months of Truce. Surah 91-7

"How should the idolaters have a covenant with God and His Messenger? -- excepting those with whom you made covenant at the Holy Mosque; so long as they go straight with you, do you go straight with them; surely God loves the godfearing." Surah 97

Surah 913 states they attacked the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers first, expelling them the first time.

"Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and purposed to expel the Messenger, beginning the first time against you? Are you afraid of them? You would do better to be afraid of God, if you are believers." Surah 913

Which causes a problem when Allah describes the disbelievers and believers destroying the homes of the disbelievers who expelled them. But no violence or destruction occurred at Masjid Al-Haram.

Allah gives description of the believers and disbelievers in Surah 999-100

"And the Outstrippers, the first of the Emigrants and the Helpers, and those who followed them in good-doing -- God will be well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him; and He has prepared for them gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein to dwell forever and ever; that is the mighty triumph.
And some of the Bedouins who dwell around you are hypocrites; and some of the people of the City are grown bold in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; but We know them, and We shall chastise them twice, then they will be returned to a mighty chastisement." Surah 999-100

The expulsion of the Prophet is mentioned in Surah 940, when they hid in the cave, showing that the first expulsion already occurred

"If you do not help him, yet God has helped him already, when the unbelievers drove him forth the second of two, when the two were in the Cave, when he said to his companion, 'Sorrow not; surely God is with us.' Then God sent down on him His Shechina, and confirmed him with legions you did not see; and He made the word of the unbelievers the lowest; and God's word is the uppermost; God is All-mighty, All-wise." Surah 940

The emigration of the Prophet and the believers is discussed as prior to the destruction of the place of expulsion.

"They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Surah 489

"Those who believe, and have emigrated and struggled with their possessions and their selves in the way of God, and those who have given refuge and help -- those are friends one of another. And those who believe, but have not emigrated -- you have no duty of friendship towards them till they emigrate; yet if they ask you for help, for religion's sake, it is your duty to help them, except against a people between whom and you there is a compact; and God sees the things you do." Surah 872

The chastisement will come.
?And they demand of thee to hasten the chastisement! But for a stated term the chastisement would have come upon them; but it shall come upon them suddenly, when they are not aware.? Surah 2953
?Say My Lord would not care for you were it not for your prayer; but you have indeed rejected, so that which shall cleave shall come.? Surah 2577

The town that expelled the Prophet was destroyed
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4

The believers inherit the land, and the untrodden land.
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And He brought down those of the People of the Book who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror in their hearts; some you slew, some you made captive. And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions, and a land you never trod. Allah is powerful over everything.? Surah 3326-27

The Prophet and the believers settled into Mecca peacefully, without conflict.
?It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. Allah sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Sacred Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account - that Allah may admit into His mercy whom He will - had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement.? Surah 4824-25

If Muhammad was exiled from Mecca, the disbelievers and believers would be well known. But they were not known, so Allah restrained their hands.

The disbelievers continue to fight the Prophet and the believers.
"It is not for the idolaters to inhabit God's places of worship, witnessing against themselves unbelief; those -- their works have failed them, and in the Fire they shall dwell forever." Surah 917
"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107

Masjid Al-Qiblatan - the Mosque of Two Qiblahs - is in Medina. This was a place of ambush for those who fought the Messenger initially.

Allah does not change His way.
?They have sworn by God the most earnest oaths that if a warner came to them, they would be more rightly guided than any one of the nations; but when a warner came to them, it increased them only in aversion, waxing proud in the land, and devising evil; but evil devising encompasses only those who do it; So do they expect anything but the way of the ancients (sunnata al-awwaleena)? And thou shalt never find any changing the way of Allah (lisunnati Allahi), and thou shalt never find any altering the way of Allah (lisunnati Allahi).? Surah 3542-43

?And naught prevented men from believing when the guidance came unto them, and seeking their Lord's forgiveness, but that the way of the ancients (sunnatu al-awwaleena) should come upon them, or that the chastisement should come upon them face to face.? Surah 1855

I'm interested in what you can find in the Quran. Insha'Allah, Allah will increase our knowledge.

Looking at the verses about Qibla, it seems to me its talking about the Jews and not Christians as Christians have non Qibla.
Just my two cents although I don't really care about this subject.

No worries. Maybe this will help in your studies though

The Christians have a qiblah. Isa set his face toward Jerusalem Luke 951-56

May Allah guide us to a right better than this.

Peace.

Layth

Dear Umer,

You are missing some points that have already been covered.

Qibla. The Qibla of the Jews is the wailing wall. The Qibla of the Nazarenes is the mount of olives. Neither group faces the Temple mount, so if you are making a deduction that the Temple Mount is false because of Qibla, then that deduction is false.
Masjid Aqsa is not a place in Jerusalem, but is in another universe (the furthest mosque). If you study the history of the masjid aqsa in Jerusalem, you will realize it was not built until after the death of the prophet - meaning it cannot be the one mentioned in the Quran.

Bigmo