Theory of Evolution anyone ?
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salam jkhan
you may eat pigs if compelled just as you may eat carrion when you are compelled
i do not understand what is the issue with being given permission to eat a forbidden food if compelled and not seeking transgression. how does that negate the fact that swine was made from humans???
why apes are not forbidden to eat? only The God knows. maybe the way pigs were made from humans is not the same as the way apes where made (actually body versus just dna etc) or maybe because those to whom the Book was sent do not eat apes anyways, but tend to eat swine.
i do not know why apes are not forbidden. all i know is to take the Quran as the literal word of The God, and when He says He made apes and pigs from humans, then i believe it
i do not understand why people are interpeting YET AGAIN the Quran, especially a very straight forward verse !!!you say “The reason to forbid is no way near what you claim.. Try to understand your claim is weak.. Don't be adamant.. It's so clear... God never forbids coz pigs are human.. Lol...”
so what do you claim?? what is your understanding?
you say its soo clear...what do you mean its soo clear? what is soo clear?
if you have some special knowledge please shareanyways peace my friend and good luck
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you use translation of “ja3ala minhom” as “made of them” and not “made from them”
peace,
it’s not we made “from” them abada l-taghuta – which is an ideology not an animal.like saying we made from the german people (literally) wiener schnitzel and nazism.
3110 منهم min’humu/of (among) them المومنون the believing واكثرهم and more them الفسقون the disobeying
961 ومنهم wamin’humu/and of (among) them الذىن the ones ىوذون pestering النبى the prophet
2129-30 ومن and who ىقل sayeth منهم min'hum/of (among) them انى indeed I اله deity من from دونه besides him فذلك so such نجزىه we compensate him/said person جهنم abyss كذلك like such نجزى we compensate الظلمىن the wrongdoers اولم do they not ىر see الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان anna (an inna/that indeed) السموت the skies/heavens والارض and the land/earth كانتا be she/they dual رتقا sewn of ففتقنهما so ripped we them dual وجعلنا and made we of من mina/from الما the water كل every شى thing حى live افلا then so not ىومنون believing
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Peace All.
Every now and then I get the feeling that I should not approach subjects like this. However I am not listening to me and here we go
I will tackle "the controversy of evolution" from all angles,especially from Science and religion prespectives by first asking the following questions
1-Where did anyone see an animal, a plant or a human appear as fully grown like by some kind of magic( i.e without going through stages)?
2- Have the stages developped through the ages? If yes ,how?
3- What does Qoran say about stages of creation?One may say GOD can do magic, but GOD tells us that creation is done by stages . GOD also tells us that there are laws and there is order to the creation. GOD says "be (to the plan) and it is (after certain stages)" .
Let us start with a simple case of the human.
The baby is conceived then starts as a single combined cell of the male and female from their reproductive organs.
This single cell contains information(DNA) guiding its path to become a fully grown baby. DNA codes are shaping the divide of the cell and the production of different organs within the cell to produce a human being with the eyes, ears, brain and all the parts that make it human.
Then GOD has given it the "spirit" of life and out it comes a baby human.
This baby still will grow and develop physically and mentally while learning about life and preparing to take his/her part in this life as a fully grown adult.(With exceptions of those that do not make it for reasons only known to the creator!)
This is part of what one can define as an evolution ,be it a specific human one.
Animals and plants have similar process that may differ slightly. One gets the point up to here.Now here comes the part that has so much controversy and is strill at loggerhead by Science and religion.From the extreme "we come from apes" to GOD created"Adam and Eve" as a whole grown up man and woman!!!
Well ,prepare for some good logic "assumptions" that may marry the two camps, or not!!!
GOD started the creation of the earth in 4 stages that made it habitable for us( solely for our purpose to live here). Part of the stages was the balance of all the elements required for life like Oxygen, CO2, ...etc.
The earth has undergone an evolution to become what it is. The stages were necessary for its completion as a habitable planet.
Similarly all the inhabitants (Animals/iinsects, plants and humans)/were to be created on this earth to compliment this purpose .How?Remember that first cell that produced the human baby with all its different organs and their functions?
Darwin in a way was right remember his theory about the single cell, you know the one that formed in the water from elements including "clay". l Darwin was wrong in its simplicity. What Darwin did not know(and could not at that time) was that this single cell was complex, full of information(DNA) how to grow and what to produce?This complex cell had DNA information to produce different species of animals/insects and humans,all at the same time( Like the single baby cell that was programmed to produce different organs of different functions).
To cut a long story ( A very long story of millions of years) short, all the various species came out at once. Each type of species underwent their own evolution and perfection in various surrondings of the "habitable earth" -By natural selection-.In the case of mankind, well, (Our species and Monkeys evolved separately .We did not evolve from them!!) GOD waited for our shaping ( Khalaknakum Thumma Sawwarnakum Thumma...) Created us-That first cell-, then shaped us-Through evolution to perfect our shape , brain...etc. Then GOD chose Adam and Eve for the demonstration to the Malaika...- Of course the rest is history.
Before you ask me to publish any finding in a journal or a book or..
First I have not found anything that GOD has not given us as information to investigate -either from Qoran or Science or others who studied it-
Second I am saying this is my opinion according to me.
Lastly, it does not matter what one believes ,please let us all try and follow/do the message.So when GOD says"Badaa Al Khalk" Started a creation .it always means there are stages to its completion and we are no different to all other species.
Then when God gave us the Amana- free will-, Monkeys and pigs were not given this. Hence humans did not and will not become monkeys or pigs.
What GOD is saying in the verses is simply "As dispicable as apes /pigs from our point of view.( Not GOD s!)GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
salam noon waalqalami
we are told THE apes and THE swine but NOT THE abada
and also abada could perhaps mean and “they worship the taghut”
so perhaps The God made from them THE apes and THE swine and they worship the taghut (devil?)
or The God made from them THE apes and THE swine and worshippers of the taghut (devil?) AND NOT THHHHE worshippers of taghut
salam good logic
first, what do you mean by natural selection? what is natural selection? some intelligent mechanism that drives life snd adaptability??
The God decides, not “natural selection”
do not equate natural selection to some power that drives life on earth ... dont you think doing so is shirk?
The God decides, and not some mechanism humans invented in their minds and called natural selection (or you say The God created the mechanism of natural selection? buy why? and The God governs the world, and everyday He is governing it (as told to us in the Quran))
...when you say stages etc and you mention as the baby comes out it is developing etc..the baby is still human..it will not grow into something not human. a baby develops into a human and stays a human. where is natural selection and transformation here? do some babies develop into something non human? no, babies grow into what ever species they are meant to be.
a baby cat becomes an adult cat, a baby human becomes an adult human, a baby fly becomes an adult fly etcyou say “ What GOD is saying in the verses is simply "As dispicable as apes /pigs from our point of view.( Not GOD s!”
why are you assuming this???you say “ Then when God gave us the Amana- free will-, Monkeys and pigs were not given this. Hence humans did not and will not become monkeys or pigs.”
who said the apes and monkeys given amana?
first off, we need to stop assuming that we know what amana is and equating it to free will or reason etc we do not know what amana is, case closed
and for your reference, you claim it is free will..well a horse can decide to rest or to go jumping in the field or a dog can decide to come lie down next to its master or run etc etc so animals have free will. you dont think?the mountains, skies and the earth refused the amana, so did they not think? to refuse it, they thought about it perhaps? so is that not reasoning? and to accept or refuse it, is thay not a sign of free will? they had the free will to accept it or refuse it right?
we are actually told the human being accepted it and the human is ignorant and transgressor. so perhaps it is we who reasoned wrong
my point - do not assume about what amana is, we simply do not knowsecond, monkeys and pigs came AFTER humans as they were made FROM humans. so what are you saying by monkeys and apes not given amana?? as they came AFTER humans and FROM humans
adam was created as adam, not as something that evolved into adam
adam was created as adam (you agree?) and then came down to earth as adam with his wife (why do people call her eve by the way?? we are not told her name)regarding “early” humans like neandertals, please read this verse (chapter 7 verse 69)
“Do you consider it odd that there should come to you a reminder from your Lord through a man from among yourselves, so that he may warn you? Remember when He made you successors after the people of Noah, and increased you vastly in CREATION. So remember Allah’s bounties so that you may be felicitous.’”
The God increased the people of ad in CREATION after noah’s people. The word “khol9a” is creation. so yeah, noah’s people are what scientists call “early humans”
there is no evolution by natural selection. that does not even mean anything. The God govrns the world, as is clearly told to us in the Quran, and He is capable of everything
anyways it is an extremely straight forward verse (s)
but it seems each understands it differentlypeace and good luck
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Peace tutti_frutti
Yes brother, I am sure reading your posts , we have a different understanding. As sure as there was evolution of all the species, A GOD guided evolution of course.
I do not really know where to start or if it is worth the effort conversing about this huge gulf of views in our understanding of evolution and the creation of mankind.
So you think this,quote
"adam was created as adam, not as something that evolved into adam
adam was created as adam (you agree?) and then came down to earth as adam with his wife (why do people call her eve by the way?? we are not told her name)I thought Adam was created on earth? (Minha khalknakum Wa Fiha Nuhidukum Wa Minha Nukhrijukum ...)
From the earth we have created you(Beni Adam includes Adam) and on earth we reproduce you and from earth we will resurrect you.If you do not mind I will pass from the conversation altogether as I find we are miles apart in our views and it will be pointless
Like I said let us both put our effort in living the message. Please forgive me if I do not respond on this subject.
Good luck to you as well.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace. -
salam good logic
hope your well
yes i understand adam was created from earth/(clay? but adam and his wife first lived in paradise (unless you equate paradise to earth)
“and “o adam, dwell, you and your wife, in paradise (garden/jannah) and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."” (ch 7, verse 19)
then adam was told “to go down”. the go down for me means earth, as earth is mentioned in same verse and the “that which they were in” perhaps means existence free from hardship and knowledge of nudity (i do not know, i only think)
“but satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that in which they had been. and We said, "go down, as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."” (ch 2, verse 36)
in any case whether adam was created on earth then put in paradise or created in paradise from clay/eartg, that does not change that there is no evolution. i do not see the relationship between being on earth or paradise and evolution
you realize i hope that idea of “evolution” exists only because scientists cannot explain why humans are similar to apes, and cannot also explain why there are “depsicable” apes (what they call human ape ancestors) in africa
the only thing they can say is “evolution and natural selection” and humans originated from
africa in order to try to “rationalize” it in their mindssame goes for pigs. scientist see pigs are very similar to humans and so they start saying we have a common ancestors with pigs. just cause they cannot explain it they invent weird theories (plse google the theories if you have time)
we know why apes and pigs are like humans. The God told us in the Quran. He made them from humans. HE decides and HE does what HE wants.
we know who the “human ape ancestors” are. The God told us in the Quran (they are the sabbath breakers who were made into despicable apes) please look at the verses 65 and 66 of chapter 2
“for you are well aware of those from among you who profaned the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, "Be apes, despised."
And We made it a deterrent punishment for those who were present and those who succeeded and a lesson for those who fear The God.”
The God says they are a deterrent punishement for those of that time and succeeding generations ! well, we found them ! we found their fossils/skeletons! they are a warning to us !!
if you say what about the generations before the human/ape skeletons were found, check verse 106 of surah 2
“Whatever sign (aya) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. know you not that The God is able to do all things?”
for me “aya” means signs here and not verses.
we have skeletons and fossils of those “apes” whilst perhaps previous generations had other signs and proofs and coming generations will have other signs and proofsplease think about evolution and the idea of humans and apes sharing an ancestor, and natural selection very hard and you’ll hopefully see that it is extremely silly
anyways yeah we have too much of a gap in our understanding lol mayb i am compleeeetely wrong indeed, but i believe what i believe
good luck my friend. looking forward to reading your other thoughts and understanding of the Quran and our worship of The God
peace
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salam jkhan
you may eat pigs if compelled just as you may eat carrion when you are compelled
i do not understand what is the issue with being given permission to eat a forbidden food if compelled and not seeking transgression. how does that negate the fact that swine was made from humans???
why apes are not forbidden to eat? only The God knows. maybe the way pigs were made from humans is not the same as the way apes where made (actually body versus just dna etc) or maybe because those to whom the Book was sent do not eat apes anyways, but tend to eat swine.
i do not know why apes are not forbidden. all i know is to take the Quran as the literal word of The God, and when He says He made apes and pigs from humans, then i believe it
i do not understand why people are interpeting YET AGAIN the Quran, especially a very straight forward verse !!!you say “The reason to forbid is no way near what you claim.. Try to understand your claim is weak.. Don't be adamant.. It's so clear... God never forbids coz pigs are human.. Lol...”
so what do you claim?? what is your understanding?
you say its soo clear...what do you mean its soo clear? what is soo clear?
if you have some special knowledge please shareanyways peace my friend and good luck
Brother.. Peace..
Unfortunately you are repeating.. And you have no idea in each thread what you write.. You skip..
Your quote "i have a question, why do people assume swine (and apes) are “low” animals? what is your criteria for them being “low”?? what does it even mean “low”?"
Coz God called flesh of swine is "Rijz" ..whatever the meaning you take for rijz I don't mind.. But God simply forbid it and called rijz not given the reason as equal to human flesh.
Your quote "and why would pork be forbidden if not that they were made from humans as mentioned clearly?"
This is the claim I entered to this topic.. You openly claimed the above..
It's not true.. You can't make it true while you don't have proof..
Only one verse in entire Quran 560 says ja'ala minhum apes and pigs.. So it is common verse to apes and pigs.. Remember common verse..
If the reason you take by this verse pigs forbidden coz they are Human and there is no reason why God should allow apes.. What logic is this? So apes also human.. Chapter close..
That's my last take.. Whatever you take is assumptions and assumptions are not equal to truth and evidence from God..I have no answers through QURAN for illogical adamance but I can answer for logical questions.. If you want to research whether God turned human into apes and pigs keep researching.. But don't claim forbid matter without proof
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salam jkhan
many translations translate rijz as impure
so...pig of flesh is impure...why? there is a reason no? and i understand it to be because they were made form humans
being rijz or impure is not a reason !!! it is a condition !!!
anyways, whatever the reason pig is forbidden, it does not change the fact that we are told in the verse that The God made apes and pigs from humans He was angry with
i gave my opinion, and you gave yours - which is to negate mine. i did not claim to have certitude of anything, i just shared my understanding
but you continuously claim i an wrong. and how can you contiiiinuously claim with certitude that i am wrong???
anyways good luck to you as well
peace
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salam jkhan
many translations translate rijz as impure
so...pig of flesh is impure...why? there is a reason no? and i understand it to be because they were made form humans
rijz or impure is not a reason !!! it is a condition !!!
i gave my opinion, you give yours - which is to negate mine
and how can you continuously claim with certitude that i am wrong with???
anyways good luck to you as well
peace
Peace..
Keep calling what you claim but no proof from Quran you will find...@ Everyone...
393 "ALL FOOD was LAWFUL to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, , "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful "
carefully read above verse.. What does it say?
All food is LAWFUL ... For whome? Children of Israel... When God said all food means all.. Even blood or dead animal or pigs.. Simply all....
God didn't forbid.. But children of Israel forbid themselves..
When actually this happened? BEFORE Torah was revealed... In Torah pigs are mentioned.. -
salam jkhan
all food was lawful ... because maybe pigs did not exist before or during the time of israel ?!! we do not know who israel was nor when he lived
and as per your understanding, so even the dead animal was legal before israel? and even food dedicated to other than The God was legal? blood was legal too? then The God decided to make them unlawful at some point?
perhaps, The God does what He wantsor maybe ALL food meant ALL FOOD that was not initially illegal (ie dead animals, animals not dedicated to The God, swine, blood ...)
AND anyways, forget the restriction
the point is The God says He made apes and swine from humans He was angry with!
the verse is clearanyways take care dude
peace
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salam noon waalqalami
we are told THE apes and THE swine but NOT THE abada
and also abada could perhaps mean and “they worship the taghut”
so perhaps The God made from them THE apes and THE swine and they worship the taghut (devil?)
or The God made from them THE apes and THE swine and worshippers of the taghut (devil?) AND NOT THHHHE worshippers of taghut
no
560 … وغضب and anger علىه on him/said person وجعل and made منهم min'humu/of them القرده the monkeys والخنزىر and the swines وعبد and devotee الطغوت l-taghuta/the false idols …
and made of them the monkeys (non-literal idiom)
and made of them the swines (non-literal idiom)
and made of them devotee the false idols (still people!)561 واذا and when of جاوكم they (see above) come to you قالوا said they of امنا believe we of وقد and assuredly دخلوا enter they of بالكفر in the disbelief…
562 وترى and thou see كثىرا much of منهم min'hum/of them (see above) ىسرعون hastening فى in الاثم the detriment والعدون and the transgression واكلهم and consumption theirs السحت the illicit لبىس surely wretched ما what كانوا be they of ىعملون working
1636 ولقد and surely بعثنا raise we of فى in كل every امه community رسولا messenger of ان that اعبدوا devotes they of الله the god واجتنبوا and avoids they of الطغوت l-taghuta/the false idols فمنهم famin'hum/so of (among) them من who هدى guidance الله the god ومنهم wamin'hum/and of (among) them من who حقت justified علىه on him/said person الضلله the misguidance its فسىروا so travel ye of فى in الارض the land فانظروا so observes ye of كىف how كان be عقبه end المكذبىن the deniers
3917 والذىن and the ones اجتنبوا avoids they of الطغوت l-taghuta/the false idols ان lest ىعبدوها yaʿbuduha/devoted they them …
similar structure …
2173 انما solely حرم prohibit علىكم upon you المىته the lifeless والدم and the blood ولحم and flesh الخنزىر the swine
prohibit upon you the lifeless
prohibit upon you the blood
prohibit upon you flesh the swinecannot be an adjective e.g. flesh the rotten
basic rule if definite noun, definite adjective
examples the flesh (noun) the rotten (adjective)
البىت the house (noun) العتىق the ancient (adjective)peace!
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salam noon waalqalami
no use in debating. you are very adamant about those people being made “like” monkeys and swine, and you are very vehement in your conclusion
anyways, let us assume they were made “like” apes and swine as you say
what does that even mean??? they were made to eat bananas and jump on trees??? or they were made to roll on mud like swine?? and they were made to say “oink oink” (pig noise)?
or you mean they were made to be considered “low” as apes and swine?? what does that mean? how do you classify apes and swine as low?? what does low mean?
think please, think
the verse is very clear. The God is capable of everything, literally. why not believe The God when He clearly says He made apes and swine from transgressors He was angry with?
The God told us He made from the transgressors pigs ans and monkeys, why not believe Him ?!! and why do you start interpreting the verse??
peace and good luck
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366 "Here you are - those who have argued about that of which you have knowledge, but why do you argue about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you know not"
Peace everyone..
I don't blame NW And TF.. All I can say is you will never get evidence on things God has not given enough knowledge...
If still both of you feel you have evidence.... That can only be your assumptions...Argue on matters which you have knowledge and don't argue on matters which you have no knowledge...
I debated saying pork was forbidden not coz pigs are human.. Coz I have proof within Quran... But to claim pigs and apes OR monkeys are born from Human and we see them now as pigs and humans one upon a time they were human ... No knowledge..
Last post on this... Thank you.. -
anyways, let us assume they were made “like” apes and swine as you say
what does that even mean???
peace tutti, similar examples...
7176 كمثل like similitude الكلب the dog
7179 اولىك those كالانعم like the cattleThe God told us He made from the transgressors pigs ans and monkeys, why not believe Him ?!! and why do you start interpreting the verse??
min'humu does not mean "from" them literally i.e. no physical features were changed.
352 فلما so to what (when) احس perceived عىسى Isa منهم min'humu/of (about) them الكفر the disbelief
3110 منهم min'humu/of (among) them
512 منهم min'humu/of (among) them
560 ... وجعل and made منهم min'humu/of (about) them ... devotee الطغوت the false idols
961 ومنهم wamin'humu/and of (among) them
1540 منهم min'humu/of (among) them
3313 منهم min'humu/of (among) them
3883 منهم min'humu/of (among) thempeace -- all the best!
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salam jkhan
no one knows the truth except The God and verses are unserstood by whomever The God permits to understand them if He wants to.
so the verse you are quoting applies to you as well when you give your opinion, who told you the others are wrong and you are right???salam noon waalqalami
again, the verses you quote say “LIKE”
like cattle and like dogsThe God does not say He made the transgressor “LIKE” apes and swine !!!
HE says HE MADE apes and swine from/of the transgressors (it doesnt change anything if you translate “minhum” as “of or from”)peace
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peace tutti, it is also written 3119 واقصد and be moderate ...
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/31/vers/19?handschrift=107
https//i.postimg.cc/bYbXTbt3/ch31v16-23.jpg
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Some humans were transformed into apes not the other way around 7166 So when they were insolent about that which they had been forbidden, We said to them, "Be apes, despised."
Brother of ours have done a article about Devolution
https//www.organisedquran.com/devolution
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and adam was created in his image (we know that there are non like The God (plse see verse below) so perhaps in his image meant adam was created as adam and not as part of evolution? or maybe The God is telling us adam has free will? but the angels and djinns have free will i think. animals too. or perhaps The God means the ability to reason? but yet again there are none like The God (i am giving other possibilities because only The God knows the truth))
“The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He hath made for you pairs of yourselves, and of the cattle also pairs, whereby He multiplieth you. NAUGHT IS AS HIS LIKENINESS; and He is the Hearer, the Seer.“ chapter 42 verse 11Salam tutti_frutti,
Just want to comment a bit regarding "Adam was created in His image". That is actually from sahih hadith books and not from Quran.
https//sunnah.com/muslim/53/32
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying
Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created Adam in His image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adam, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day.
And that is blasphemy against God. Furthermore, in Sunnism it is forbidden to punch or kick someone on the face as per sahih hadith below (but I guess majority is not even aware about this as the leaders/shaikhs/ustadz/ulamas conceal this and at the same time the followers don't read sahih hadith books themselves, only know what the leaders/shaikhs/ustadz/ulamas carefully cherry pick).
https//sunnah.com/muslim/45/152
This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Hatim Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) is reported to have said
When any one of you fights with his brother, he should avoid his face for Allah created Adam in His own image.
Wassalam,
Ade -
salam ade
ohhhh i reaaally thought i had read it in The Quran (and then for some reaason it just stayed in my mind and i never actually looked for it when i read the Quran)
thank youuu for the clarification
in any case, i am very convinced that there is no “evolution”
thanx
peace
