Theory of Evolution anyone ?
-
'Intimidation tactics'. People who are not fearful are not intimidated.
Because your question was answered in my previous post. But I'll bite.
You believe Jinn are of a different 'essence'? Then what is this 'essence' if it is not aetherial - spirit? Are you saying they are 'Reptiliads' or 'Greys' or some-such being? What is this 'essence'? Speak clearly and bring proof from the Quran to support why you believe this.
If you uphold they are not part of human kind, then you run into a problem. Allah includes Jinn as part of the Nasi in Surah 1145-6.
"who whispers in the breasts of Nasi, of Jinn and Nasi.'" Surah 1145-6
"Allathee yuwaswisu fee sudoori alnnasi Mina aljinnati waalnnasi" Surah 1145-6Jinn are Christians who accepted the Quran Surah 721-18
Jinn are Yahudians who accepted the Quran Surah 4629-30
Solomon?s Jinn in Quran Surah 2716-41, 3412-13
Solomon's Jinn in previous Books I Kings 513-17, II Chron. 217-18, II Chron. 44-6Who were the people before the Nasi? Bring proof from the Quran to show why you believe what you believe.
And what am I going to do? Caps-lock you? P
If you do not believe you are misguided, then why would what I believe about you or say about you matter? You will not be called to account to me. You should be more concerned with what Allah knows about you, as you will be called to account with Him and Him alone.When an answer to your question is posted before you even asked it, and you refuse to read it before you respond, I will dismiss you as ignorant. You didn't even read what was shown, you just posted ayats that were quoted and responded to before you asked your question.
You didn't study the material presented.
ig?no?rant
- lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned an ignorant man.
- lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact ignorant of quantum physics.
- uninformed; unaware.
Because the answer is in the post preceding your 'proof', preemptively answering your question. It's not my problem nor my responsibility if you refuse to read.
I'm bolding, underlining, and italicizing in your quote what you failed to see.
Here is a repost of the material previously presented, should you so choose to read it this time
The Jinn were created before the Nasi. You admitted this in your response on the other thread.
I also want you to note you are using the Arabic word for 'Jinn', but you translate (Nasi) into 'Man'. So already a deception is occurring. But we'll get to that.
Jinn were created before Nasi, which shows Nasi are successors of the Jinn. This is upheld in the Quran.
Successor (Khalif) Surah 230, 3170, 49, 6133, 6165, 717, 769, 774, 7142, 7150, 7169, 9118, 1014, 1073, 1092, 1311, 1959, 2128, 2276, 2762, 349, 3539, 369, 3645, 3826, 4114, 4125, 4142, 4360, 4621, 6715, 7227
?And when thy Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a successor (khaleefatan).' They said, 'What, wilt Thou set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Thy praise and call Thee Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'? Surah 230"What, do you wonder that a reminder from your Lord should come to you by the lips of a man from among you? That he may warn you; and remember when He appointed you as successors (khulafaa) after the people of Noah, and increased you in stature broadly; remember God's bounties; haply you will prosper.'" Surah 769
"And there succeeded (Fakhalafa) after them a succession (khalfun) who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?" Surah 7169
"And to the three who were left behind (khullifoo), until, when the earth became strait for them, for all its breadth, and their souls became strait for them, and they thought that there was no shelter from God except in Him, then He turned towards them, that they might also turn; surely God turns, and is All-compassionate." Surah 9118
"Had We willed, We would have made angels among you successors (yakhlufoona) in the earth." Surah 4360
Allah states clearly Nasi are made from the seed of another people.
"Thy Lord is All-sufficient, Merciful. If He will, He can put you away, and leave after you, to succeed you (wayastakhlif), what He will, as He produced you from the seed (dhurriyyati) of another (kharna) people (qawmin)." Surah 6133
He even gives details how Adam (pbuh) was made.
?He is the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible, the All-mighty, the All-compassionate, Who has created all things well. And He originated the creation of humans (al-insani) of clay (min teenin), then He fashioned his descendant (naslahu) of an extraction (sulalatin) of low (maheenin) water (ma-in), then He shaped (sawwahu) him, and breathed His spirit (roohihi) in him. And He appointed for you hearing, and sight, and hearts; little thanks you show.? Surah 326-9
There is only one Nasi spoken of in the Quran who was shaped and had Allah's ruh breathed into him - Adam (pbuh) Surah 1529, 329, 3872
If all human beings sprung from the joining of one couple, Allah would not make distinction between the bloodline of the Prophets (pbut), as we all would be from the seed of Adam (pbuh).
(dhurriyyatī offspring Surah 2124, 2128, 2266, 334, 336, 338, 49, 684, 687, 6133, 7172, 7173, 1083, 1338, 1437, 1440, 173, 1762, 1850, 1958, 2927, 3641, 3777, 37113, 4615, 5221, 5726
Seed of Adam Surah 333, 683-87, 7172, 172-3, 1958. 5726?We have honoured the Children of Adam and carried them on land and sea, and provided them with good things, and preferred them greatly over many of those We created.? Surah 1770
"That is Our argument, which We bestowed upon Abraham as against his people. We raise up in degrees whom We will; surely thy Lord is All-wise, All-knowing.
And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob -- each one We guided, And Noah We guided before; and of his seed (dhurriyyatihi) David and Solomon, Job and Joseph, Moses and Aaron -- even so We recompense the good-doers -- Zachariah and John, Isa and Elias; each was of the righteous; Ishmael and Elisha, Jonah and Lot - each one We preferred above all beings; and of their fathers, and of their seed (wadhurriyytihim), and of their brethren (wa-ikh'wnihim); and We elected them, and We guided them to a straight path." Surah 683-87"And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.' The seed (dhurriyyata) of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant." Surah 172-3
"These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping." Surah 1958
"And We sent Noah, and Abraham, and We appointed the Prophecy and the Book to be among their seed (dhurriyyatihim and some of them are guided, and many of them are ungodly." Surah 5726
The Jinn are human beings.
Jinn are Christians ? Byzantines ? who accepted the Quran Surah 721-18
Jinn are Yahudians ? Persians ? who accepted the Quran Surah 4629-30
Jew and Christian polytheists who lead astray Surah 2105, 2120, 2135, 2140, 367, 395, 3151, 3186, 582, 6106, 6137, 6161, 931-33, 10105, 16120, 2217, 981-6Jinn are foreigners among Nasi Surah 6128-131, 2217, 3412-13, 738, 7179
'Ajam' ? ?Non-Arab? or ?Persian? Surah 16103, 4144, 26198
Roman-Persian wars Surah 302-4, 1051-5
Solomon?s Jinn in Quran Surah 2716-41, 3412-13
Solomon's Jinn in previous Books I Kings 513-17, II Chron. 217-18, II Chron. 44-6But, but, but... They are made of SMOKELESS FIRE!!!!!!!111111111oneoneoneoneleventeen. (They are of another essence!)
The same people who uphold these superstitious beliefs are often among the many who point to the scientific miracles in the Quran.
One such miracle is Surah 2130
"Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?" Surah 2130
This is from the Arberry Quran, translated in 1950. The Yusuf Ali Quran, translated in the 1920s reads
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Surah 2130
In 1978, the Nobel Prize was awarded for the theory of the Big Bang. This theory postulates that the universe was one mass - a monoblock - that was blown apart and sent out into the void.
Press release for 1978 Nobel Peace Prize
http//nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1978/press.html"A theory developed by the American physicist Gamow and his associates suggested that this synthesis took place at the beginning of the existence of the universe. It is known from studies of the spectra of stars and galaxies that the universe is at present expanding uniformly. This means that at a certain point, 15 billion years ago, the universe was very compact; it is thus tempting to assume that the universe was created by a cosmic explosion, or 'big bang', although other explanations are possible. This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees. Only at those temperatures can various nuclear reactions take place such that chemical elements could be built up from the elementary particles assumed to be present from the very beginning."
Here Scientists - the largest group of unbelievers I know of who cannot believe in something without proof - are showing how the components of all life and matter in the universe was created in this one Big Bang of intense heat and expansion.
Let's repeat that "This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees."
This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees.
This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees.(Note I even put this in large letters in my previous post, and still you responded with your 'essence' post.)
Jinn created before Nasi of a released, scorching fire Surah 1527, 5515
?And He created (Wakhalaqa) the jinn of (aljanna min) release (marijin) of fire (min narin).? Surah 5515
?and the jinn created We before of fire scorching (alssamoomi).? Surah 1527While someone who upholds superstition sees evil fire creatures lurking in the aether, I see the intense heat of the Big Bang creating the components of all life itself.
You would think, if the Quran still speaks of the Jinn, there would be some way to know them from the Nasi. After all, Allah makes it clear in Surah 1145-6 that the Jinn are part of the Nasi
"Allathee yuwaswisu fee sudoori alnnasi Mina aljinnati waalnnasi" 1145-6
"who whispers in the breasts of nasi, of jinn and nasi.'" Surah 1145-6If we are ALL Nasi, but there are still Jinn in and among the Nasi, there must be some indication of these Jinn that still remains if they are humans, right? If the Quran says it, then we should find some indication of it.
Neanderthal DNA still found in modern Homo Sapiens
Neanderthals, Humans Interbred?First Solid DNA Evidence
"The next time you're tempted to call some oaf a Neanderthal, you might want to take a look in the mirror.
According to a new DNA study, most humans have a little Neanderthal in them?at least 1 to 4 percent of a person's genetic makeup.
The study uncovered the first solid genetic evidence that "modern" humans?or Homo sapiens?interbred with their Neanderthal neighbors, who mysteriously died out about 30,000 years ago.
What's more, the Neanderthal-modern human mating apparently took place in the Middle East, shortly after modern humans had left Africa, not in Europe?as has long been suspected."Read more http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/
Study Neanderthal DNA Lives On in Modern Humans
"Still, other paleoanthropologists say the discovery is not entirely unexpected. There is ample archaeological evidence ? including tools, habitation sites and fossils ? that Neanderthals and early modern humans may have coexisted in the Middle East as much as 80,000 years ago, and certainly in Europe 30,000 to 45,000 years ago. What has been missing until now is the genetic evidence."The fact that they found it across the board says that the evidence must be very widespread across modern humans," says Erik Trinkaus, an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis, Mo., who has long argued that the human fossils he has studied in France, Romania, the Czech Republic and other places show mixed ancestry. "If you can find evidence after 30,000 years of genetic shifting, then it must have been pretty important or prominent then." Trinkaus speculates that the genetic flow between Neanderthals and early modern humans might have been as high as 10% to 20%.
The new finding may prompt a tweaking of the well-known Out of Africa theory, which in its strictest interpretation says a small group of early modern humans left Africa and outcompeted and replaced all other hominids without any interbreeding. The alternate theory, known as multiregionalism, argues that distinct populations of modern humans developed simultaneously around the world and along the same evolutionary lines by swapping genes.
"What we falsify here is the very hard Out of Africa theory," said P??bo. "We show that outside Africa there is this 1% to 4% that came from archaic humans. Of course, it's totally possible that archaic forms that we don't know contributed to Africans today. I don't think we should take this as evidence that only people outside Africa have some 'caveman' biology within them."
According to Trinkaus, many paleoanthropologists have long believed that early modern humans and Neanderthals interbred. "People have been saying this for decades," he argues. "The minority position was the position that there was no gene flow. Most people who work with the fossil record support some level of admixture."Whatever our mixing, it is human uniqueness that has also been revealed by the sequencing. By comparing the Neanderthal genome with those of modern humans, the team identified a small number of genetic changes that were newly evolved in modern humans. Some of the changes may have arisen as a result of genetic drift, but others seem to have been positively selected for ? meaning they swept through populations rapidly, possibly because they gave us some advantage."
Read more http//www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568-2,00.html
So we do find remnants of the Jinn - Neanderthal man - who was created before Homo Sapien man. We find this in the DNA of Homo Sapien - the Nasi.
So again, while you see different 'essences', I see the intense heat of the Big Bang creating the components of all life itself. All according to Allah's will.
"He said, 'Our Lord is He who gave everything its creation, then guided it.'" Surah 2050
So, after reading this, do you still not understand what I believe? If so, let me know.
If you do understand, then please bring proof to show why you believe what you believe. I look forward to reading it.
Had you read the post that preceded your question, you would not see my response as a tactic of 'intimidation' and instead the dismissal of one who refuses to pay attention.
Bring your proof.
Peace.
You're right.
-
You're right.
I'm not right. This knowledge didn't come from me, this came from Allah. All power is due to Him and Him alone.
"It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophethood, then he should say to men, 'Be you servants to me apart from God.' Rather, 'Be you scholars (rabbaniyyeena) in that you know the Book, and in that you study.'" Surah 379
He tells us to study the Quran so we can become scholars. I am no one special. If He will show me this, He will show it to anybody who wants to know.
Ask Allah to explain to you, to increase you in knowledge. D"So high exalted be God, the true King! And hasten not with the Koran ere its revelation is accomplished unto thee; and say, 'O my Lord, increase me in knowledge.'" Surah 20114
May Allah guide us closer to the Truth.
Peace.
-
Salam Raggin-Taggin,
you see, may be its my fault that I did not clarify my point
Let us look at the first post in this thread, what this thread actually was started for
Peace,
I would like to know the point of view of the members of this site on the subject of Evolution.
By Evolution I mean , Darwinian evolution, evolution by natural selection.
Thanks
Allah guide us
-------------------- Student of Allah
You teleported from a topic called "myth vs fairy tale" I believe and continued that here. Now, I must first clarify, reading through your posts, I kind of got some hints about your interpretations, the Neanderthal-Jinn theory is not bad, let me see if I can find reasons to confirm it or throw it in the bin.
What we have failed to realize in this thread is that the thread was not for discussing "Are Jinns Neanderthals ?" or "Genesis of the Jinns" . If you look back at the start of the thread, you will realize its about "Evolution by natural selection" . The tons of evidence or attempts at proving your case has nothing to do with the topic, it just justifies why you believe Jinns are actually Neaderthals (which can be a very good separate thread by the way).
Now I do realise that sometimes , in a thread like "whats your favourite car" one attempts at justifying why he chose a car with more horsepower than a car with superior controls. But, in a 4 page thread, if 3 pages are for debating why horsepower is superior to control, the thread is officially hijacked (according to me atleast).
Dont get me wrong, I liked your reinterpretation using reasoning and logic rather than commonly accepted ideas. Even if you are wrong, you have a case there, you are not simply blindly submitting to common ideas. But let us do some justice to this thread and speak about "Evolution by natural selection" instead of "Are the Jinn neanderthals ?"
I hope you dont get this post the wrong way, and actually see what I am trying to say.
PEACE
----------------------- Student of Allah
-
Salam,
The problem with evolution and muslims are purely cultural and emotional. Evoution is attacked by the christians, nothing unexpected as most of them believe that the earth is around 6000years old or at most 10000 years old. For me, evolution is good to go. Like any scientific theory, the model will improve with time. And I remember someone in this forum, telling me about this muslim back in the 12/13th century i think that discussed such theories. Dont remember the name.
PEACE
-------------------- Student of AllahSalam,
Can you give me the reason why Christians believe the Earth is 6000 years old? Does it specifically say this in the Bible?
-
Salam,
Can you give me the reason why Christians believe the Earth is 6000 years old? Does it specifically say this in the Bible?
Salam,
As for me, I never found a direct date given by God in the Bible. However, people use the chronology given in the Bible to calculate that.We calculaate backwards in time to find it. For example
-The prophesied number of years events, division of solomon's kngdom (Ezekeil 44-7) gives you approximately 1000 years.
-Another 37 years from the 40 years of reign of Solomon to the start of the temple in the 4th years.
-479 years more if you count 1 Kings chapter 61 (start of the temple in the 480th year), this leads them back to the Exodus time.
-Exodus to Abraham, around 430 years ((Gen 1210/ Exodus 1240/ Gal 317)
-We know Abraham entered Canan when he was like 75 years (Gen 124)
-From Abraham's birth to Noah's grandson (Gen 1111-26), 290 years
-From there we know that the flood took place approximately 2331 BC
-From geneology in Genesis 53-32 we know that there is a time gap of 1656 years between the flood and creation.This is the way the calculations are done, it brings the total to 6000+ and if you stretch it to maximum for your benefit, its near 10000.
Coming back to Evolution, one must realise that the model of Evolution has been improved over time. Charles Darwin couldnt explain everything back then, today we have the technology to understand more things about the subject. This doesnt make Evolution wrong, we rather have a more well refined model of Evolution in comparison to the model provided by Charles Darwin.
PEACE
--------------------------- Student of Allah
-
Peace be with you,
You teleported from a topic called "myth vs fairy tale" I believe and continued that here.
Did you see 'why' I was 'teleported' here? Was there a reason for my coming here or was it on a whim?
Now, I must first clarify, reading through your posts, I kind of got some hints about your interpretations, the Neanderthal-Jinn theory is not bad, let me see if I can find reasons to confirm it or throw it in the bin.
What we have failed to realize in this thread is that the thread was not for discussing "Are Jinns Neanderthals ?" or "Genesis of the Jinns" . If you look back at the start of the thread, you will realize its about "Evolution by natural selection" . The tons of evidence or attempts at proving your case has nothing to do with the topic, it just justifies why you believe Jinns are actually Neaderthals (which can be a very good separate thread by the way).
If you take a look at the proofs given, you will see the Quran upholds evolution as a process guided by Allah. In proving Jinn are the predecessors of Nasi, we see the evolutionary process.
"He said, 'Our Lord is He who gave everything its creation, then guided it.'" Surah 2050
If there wasn't an evolutionary process encoded into the creation, then Allah would be changed His way - alsunnati Allahi - and He does not change His way.Ponder upon what is given and ask Allah to explain it. You will see the principles taught by Allah about creation and how He guides it are found in the theories of quantum evolution; the rapid emergence of higher taxonomic groups.
Personally, I have no idea what more you 'need' to understand that evolution is part of the sunnati Allahi encoded into this creation. I may not have put it into a sound-bite you found palatable, but the information is there for you to confirm for yourself and to turn to Allah and ask Him to explain it to you.
I don't care if people believe me or not. I care if they are reading the Quran and asking Allah to explain it to them.
Now I do realise that sometimes , in a thread like "whats your favourite car" one attempts at justifying why he chose a car with more horsepower than a car with superior controls. But, in a 4 page thread, if 3 pages are for debating why horsepower is superior to control, the thread is officially hijacked (according to me atleast).
Then don't lose hope My posting in this thread was a response that was brought here because a kgwithnob showed me his response here in reply in another thread. I have brought my proof and answered the questions given. I am not here to beat a dead horse. This is the last post I will make in your thread.
Peace.
-
I thik that Evolution is one of God's systems of perfections.
God stated that he Perfected everything, and how can you perfect things if things are constantly changing? is not what the so called natural selection brings about?Also, there is an instance in the Quran where God states that he increases us (humands) in the creation a little "basata", is this not a direct referance to evolution.
Thus it is God himself who Changes his creation.What about the virgin birth of jesus, Komodo dragons can produce via virgin birth too!!!
If Mary had the chromosome pair XY, even though she was a female (some females have the male chromosome pair xy), and God made her body produce an egg fully with the XY chromosome pair, then the result is a virgin male, just like how komodo dragons can produce! -
evolution may be correct but how it is that is a big auestion
i dont think what darwin taught is complete or 100% true because of some live examples we see daily life that goes against his evolution principles
for example strong and fit dies to save the weak and unfit very common thing
-
evolution may be correct but how it is that is a big auestion
i dont think what darwin taught is complete or 100% true because of some live examples we see daily life that goes against his evolution principles
for example strong and fit dies to save the weak and unfit very common thing
Shalom Aleikhom,
You are correct. Darwin was like Galileo, like Galileo he did not have perfect physics model. But modern evolution is not the same as the way Darwin proposed.
By the way, evolution does not really say that strong will always survive. The one that can adapt to change the most, usually survives. The effects of evolution is best observed across a huge sample like species. Not across a tiny case involving one person.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
I would say that it is. What one often doesn't realise is that, for evolution to occur, there are 'accumulation' of changes in addition to random mutations and natural selection. There is no need for outside forces.
Richard Dawkin's books 'The Blind Watchmaker' and 'Climbing Mount Improbable' are good for getting a deeper understanding of evolution.
-
I believe that the theory of evolution as it's presented today is overwhelming. It's extremely hard to refute, in my view. But that's not to say that the theory is without its holes.
Perhaps the most gaping of these holes (and personally, my greatest concern) is that of random mutation. For I have yet to see a demonstration in the way of statistics which yields reasonable and practicable probabilities for the processes of DNA replication of nucleotides or of transcription coding for amino acids in such a way that will bear a viable enzyme or some other viable proteinaceous product which will contribute to the overall survival of a given organism, dependent on no other factor but sheer randomness. I cannot imagine, given any stretch of time, how such gross improbability is overcome.
And it should be pointed out that the probability of ?devolution?, in this respect, has the exact same likelihood as evolution, i.e., if an ancestral individual of a species of bacteria evolved light-sensitive cells, then its descendants, by the same random processes with which it acquired those cells, are just as likely to ?devolve? those very cells.
It reminds me of Henri Poincar?'s experiment on equilibrium fluctuation in 1890. The experiment apparently violates the second law of thermodynamics. It goes along the lines of "no matter how wild and unlikely a fluctuation is, if one only waits long enough, it will occur." When I say ?long enough?, I mean a length of time which precedes the current estimation of the age of the universe.
I believe this to be a major downplayed fact in the scientific community. It seems to me that this insurmountable facet of the theory is taken on good faith. This assumption of theirs is shockingly unwarranted.
Therefore, I am lead to believe that God ?guides? random mutation, and perpetuates the permanence thereof. Or perhaps some other law is at work here. I don?t know.
" "
I am still uncertain about what conclusions to draw from the above reasoning. I?m still thinking about it.
-
I believe that the theory of evolution as it's presented today is overwhelming. It's extremely hard to refute, in my view. But that's not to say that the theory is without its holes.
Perhaps the most gaping of these holes (and personally, my greatest concern) is that of random mutation. For I have yet to see a demonstration in the way of statistics which yields reasonable and practicable probabilities for the processes of DNA replication of nucleotides or of transcription coding for amino acids in such a way that will bear a viable enzyme or some other viable proteinaceous product which will contribute to the overall survival of a given organism, dependent on no other factor but sheer randomness. I cannot imagine, given any stretch of time, how such gross improbability is overcome.
Therefore, I am lead to believe that God guides random mutation, and perpetuates the permanence thereof. Or perhaps some other law is at work here. I dont know.
The theory of evolution is pretty much a huge gaping hole.
"Random mutation" leaves plenty of room for almighty God to do His works, like you point out.Then there's the whole "natural selection" that seems way too simplistic. Sure, there's the pressures of survival/spawning that leads to practical adaptations, I can buy that argument. Where I feel natural selection falls the shortest is in explaining why so many life forms become beautiful in highly impractical ways. I just don't quite see how the world can be all about competition for life and turf and yet the peacock exists. An evolutionist might say that it's because animals want attractive mates, but in my mind there's an apparent contradiction in that since from an evolutionary perspective (being well adapted for survival) it's suicidal to look anything like a peacock, i.e. having non-utilitarian body parts or color schemes. One would think that the imagined "mother nature" would favor practical adaptations over pretty every time because of the massive "evolutionary advantage" of something like camouflage over splendid colors?
God says he shaped us from clay, like a potter. This implies a gradual process, and the evidence for this is indeed overwhelming. Exactly how the potter exerts His will on the clay seem a bit of a mystery no matter whom you ask. God surely knows best.
-
God says he shaped us from clay, like a potter.
That's not exactly accurate. This brings to mind the childish story of God forming a clay figurine in the shape of a man, and then "breathing" life into it, thus turning it into a living being, whom He named "Adam" and placed in the Garden of Aden. Subsequently, this "Adam" became bored all alone, so God took one of his crooked ribs and created "Eve" from it.
This is the stuff that you find in the Old Testament.
What science has been able to prove so far, and beyond any shadow of a doubt, is that the earliest Homo Sapiens (fully developped humans like us), first appeared on this planet some 50,000 - 60,000 years ago, and that, for a time, they existed SIDE BY SIDE with primitive Neanderthals (Cro Magnon).
What science has NOT been able to determine so far is how / when exactly did the jump from Neanderthal to human take place. The answer, as the Quran tells us, is found in the "Histories of the Ancients" (Arabic Asateer ul' Awwaleen).
Interestingly, the word "History" comes from latin Istoria which, in Arabic, is Oustoora The plural of Oustoora is Asateer, which is usually rendered as "legends".
The ancient tablets and scriptures of Yemen, the Nile valley, and Mesopotamia, all point to some divine power, sometimes expressed as heavenly beings (malai'ka - anunaki - etc...) commanded by some greater power (Rahman - Mardukh - Enki - etc...) to REPROGRAM the savage Neanderthal man and make him more "Godlike".
The Quran expresses this as "breathing of the Ruuh" into a primitive and bloodsheding species (Cro Magnon) and turning it into Homo-Sapien. This basically means that there was some form of divine intervention that took place. The Quran mentions the "Histories of the Ancients" in a context that most Muslims today failed to grasp. In fact, when the rejecters during Muhammad's time heard him recite verses describing the Creation and Resurrection (Era of Judgement), they immediately dismissed Muhammad's words as "Asateer'ul Awwaleen". This means that the Quran is in fact not denying that its verses - as far as those subjects are concerned - are somewhat similar to these ancient "Legends".
As to what exactly is this "Ruuh" (Spirit of Divinity), we will not really know
{And they ask you concerning the Ruuh Say "The Ruuh is from the authority of my Rabb and the knowledge you were given was but very little.}...
This means that some intervention must have taken place somewhere.
As for how the primitive and savage pre-humans came to being in the first place, I can say for certain that they did NOT evolve from apes. The most correct theory, and the one that most agrees with the Quran, in my humble opinion, was first openly discussed by the scholars of Al-Andalus (Moorish Spain), in the 13th Century A.D, but it was never accepted by the official schools of thought (They considered it "aberrant" and tantamount to blasphemy of course) It talks about humanoids being born directly from the earth, hatching from embryos in the mud.
You might want to check out this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602939.0
-
I suppose the point I made else where is also valid here.
Yes I sgree some good exchange of views. Well done all those involved.
I like to make a very important point to all this processes3962 GOD is the creator of all things, and HE is in full control of all things.?
He initiates the start of each process, and guides it .
The chain of command starts and ends with the;4015 Possessor of the highest rank and ruler of the whole dominion... "
Keep your interesting debates going.
Peace. -
http//islamforwest.org/2012/01/09/deism-and-750-verses-of-the-holy-quran/
I disagree with the idea that devolution is just as likely. If there is devolution, then, natural selection will remove it from the gene pool, since it would reduce fitness. Evolution will enhance fitness, hence there will be larger numbers in the next generation.
-
Thanks for the link Sarah, I was interested to learn of the deterministic tenets of deism.
I believe that if the statistical probabilities of random mutation were mapped out, then I do think that we would see a course of evolution that is as equally probable for devolution. However, you are correct in pointing out that the survival of "devolved" organisms would be mitigated by natural selection.
What is your position on divine intervention, or the lack thereof, in the evolution of life? and specifically in random mutation?
-
What is your position on divine intervention, or the lack thereof, in the evolution of life? and specifically in random mutation?
that it's unnecessary, hence random mutation followed by selection, is enough. Accumulation happens of beneficial changes, it's not going straight from no eye to a human eye in one generation, but gradations, from no eye, to light sensitive cells, which increase in complexity over generations, or start working together, then compound eyes, made up of simple eyes, rods, cones. My point is there are many steps in between that we can't see because eyes don't fossilise easily, but there are creatures with simpler eyes today that probably existed before as well.
anyway, my understanding of things is still evolving, so I can't say I have a fixed position on this or anything else.
-
My opinion is simply that mutations and natural selection can't create anything without any sort of intelligent guidence or intervention in the process. Regardless of how many "billions of years" pass. The information in the DNA alone is enough evidence because from our human experience we know that information can't come into existence without a programmer/designer/creator. You don't have to see the software engineer to know that a particular software was designed (created) by someone.