Lost Salafi Here

TruthBehindIt

Salam and Peace, everyone!

I will give you an image to answer this
When talking about the moon, one points the moon with the finger, you look at the finger or at the moon? Same here the prophete came and delivered a message, what do you think all is about, the message or the messenger?

Excellent point!

Indeed, in The Sight of Allah, The Message is more important than the Messenger, that is why Allah called the Messenger back, and let The Message remain with the mankind.

For the Guidance of the mankind, The Message is more important.
The Message did not bow before the Messenger, but the Messenger bowed before The Message and followed It.

-----"Say (O Messenger) ?If I go astray, I shall stray only against myself, and if I am guided, so it is because of what my Lord has revealed to me. Indeed, He is Hearer, Near." (Saba-50)

So obey the Messenger and do, what he himself did.
He bowed before The Message and followed Its Teachings.
You also bow before The Message and follow Its Teachings.

Again, let's be rational, you have a Book (The Qur'an) that speaks about something let's call it SALAT, why you need to search somewhere else about what and how you perform SALAT.
An example when you have a manual for a vacuum cleaner, you don't search in Encyclopedia how your device work, you just try to understand your original manual from the manufacturer.

Again an excellent point!

Personnaly I store it in the category "Tales and Legends", like many islamic books copied these tales from other tales e.g. the Isra and Mi'rage has the same tales with moses, the tale about the spider web in the cavern = same tale about Mary etc etc

Indeed, if Seerah of the Prophet had been important for us to know, then who would have been better than Allah to let us know the biography of the Prophet.

Whatever account of the Prophet was important, it is given in The Book that Allah sent down. And that account is Authentic.
Out of Al-Quran, is fairy-tales fabricated for the worshippers of the Prophet.

-----"It is not (possible) for a human that Allah should give him The Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, then afterwards he would say to the people ?Be my worshippers instead of Allah,? but (he would say) ?Be you worshippers of the Lord, because of your teaching of the Book, and because of your studying it.?
Nor would he command you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after when you have submitted (to Allah)." (379,80)

Wakas

in addition to what herbman has said...

It is a myth that Hadith detail "traditional prayer". They detail various methods, some of which contradict etc
http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0 section 11.2.ii

abdalquran

Salaam Beardo,

The seerah of the Prophet is a useful cultural narrative for us to belong to the Ummah of Muslims. It has very little to do with the Quran itself. To me, thats all the seerah is, simply part of my Islamic culture. Nothing divine at all.

Indelwyn

Salaam Beardo,

The seerah of the Prophet is a useful cultural narrative for us to belong to the Ummah of Muslims. It has very little to do with the Quran itself. To me, thats all the seerah is, simply part of my Islamic culture. Nothing divine at all.

Agreed! Allah did not intend for us to favor Prophet Muhammad over other messengers. Hence why very little is on him. The Qur'an is Allah's message to us. I am sure you heard the phrase "don't shoot the messenger". Same thing can go with Islam. Don't let the hadiths and fairytales snatch you away from Allah's guidance, just read his book )

"The Messenger has believed in what was sent down upon him from his Lord and so have the believers. Each has believed in God and HIS Angels and His Scriptures and His Messengers, "We do not make distinction amongst HIS Messengers!" And they said, "We heard and we obeyed! Grant us Your forgiveness, our Lord, and unto You is the final destiny." (2285)

Also you will find this group very helpful. They are open-minded as well as knowledgeable. I was close to walking away, but now I am beginning to re-educate myself and pull out the myths from my head. Once I started going over things and purchased a few new books, even one from Mr.. Edip Yuksel, today. You will start to feel that peace you did when you entered Islam. Before it was tainted by hadith and culture.

Peace and blessings.. and WELCOME

TruthBehindIt

Salam and a lot of Peace on you!

(1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

You must discard the "ahadith" because its all "Unauthorized human effort" to take people away from Allah's worshipping and put them into Muhammad's worshipping.

If you contemplate into these Verses, it clearly tells us The Truth

-----"It is not (possible) for a human that Allah should give him The Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, then afterwards he would say to the people ?Be my worshippers instead of Allah,? but (he would say) ?Be you worshippers of the Lord, because of your teaching of the Book, and because of your studying it.?
Nor would he command you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after when you have submitted (to Allah)." (379,80)

By following Allah's Book alone, we worship Allah alone.

The Messenger would never say "Worship me", because he himself never wrote a book of Deen.

The above quoted Verse says-----?Be you worshippers of the Lord, because of your teaching of the Book, and because of your studying it.?
So, worshipping "The Lord" is connected with "The Book of The Lord".

None of the Messengers ever wrote books of their ahadith.
They were not the inventor of Commandments, they were rather bringer and conveyer of "The Message".

(2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

Hadith never gave us one method of Salat.
Different sects have different methods of Salat. Which method is correct?

And is it not a fact that the method given in ahadith, can not be verified from Al-Quran???

Salat is remembering Allah alone, but in "Hadith-Salat", With Allah, you remember Muhammad (SAW) also.

This is what Hadith have done.-----Corruption in Deen!---Haram and Mushrik Sects!---Hate!---Extremism!---Terrorism!

Salat is in Al-Quran, the method is also there.

-----?Indeed, I am Allah, there is no god except Me, so worship Me and establish Salat for My remembrance.? (2014)
Also see Reply No 1

(3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

Al-Quran does not tell us about the Messenger (his Seerah).-----Why???---Because we don't have to mention, remember and worship the Messenger.
Al-Quran tells us about Allah Whom we have to revere, mention, remember, worship and serve.

Indeed, Allah's Quran tells us about what the Messenger did.
He followed The Quran that he brought.
We have to obey him by following what he followed-----i.e. Al-Quran!

-----"Say (O Messenger) ?If I go astray, I shall stray only against myself, and if I am guided, so it is because of what my Lord has revealed to me. Indeed, He is Hearer, Near." (Saba-50)

Beardo

The prayer of the Islamists is pagan Namaz, and hadith does not teach how to perform it. You cannot show how to pray as the Islamists pray using hadith. You say "Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed".
Prove it. Show us, using only hadith, how to pray as the pagan Islamists pray today. The phrases, the positions, the times, all of it.

Fascinating. A thousand flowers of gratitude for shedding some light on your philosophy. It's been many years now since I've peeked between the covers of the Hadiths having joined the God-Is-Dead crowd, but I was labouring under the impression that it was from there which one drew the particulars of salat. So much for intellectual indpendence. To be clear, is it your contention that there is no such instruction for how to perform salat at all, or that there is only some partial details out of which it is constructed because if that is the case the people whom you call Islamists might counter that the information imparted by the Quran and Hadith combined form the modern prayer format.

Care to clarify?

Polytheists cannot understand Allah did not teach Namaz ? pagan prayer of the Islamists.

I'm not sure I follow the meaning of "namaz". Is that another term for salat because I seldom encountered it in my Salafi incarnation? When you say that the Islamist form of prayer is pagan, can you support this with historical data? I know that the Ka'aba was a pagan shrine devoted to a pantheon of Meccan Gods one of whom was Allah, but the prayer is news to me.

Every aspect of prayer is described in the Quran.

Ablution Surah 443, 56
What to wear Surah 731, 2430-31
Remove shoes on holy ground Surah 2012

Purpose of salat
To study the revelation of Allah, the word of an honored Messenger; the Quran Surah 2121, 3113, 1698, 2792, 2945, 3529, 373, 732-4, 7320, 961
Seek refuge in Allah from the accursed satan Surah 1698
Recite the Quran Surah 7204, 82, 1698, 1745, 17107, 2792, 2853, 2951, 3334, 734, 7518
Pray in moderate tone Surah 7205, 17110-111
Declare submission to Allah, praise Allah, thank Him Surah 11-7; 2014; 17110-111; 245
Pray to Allah and only Allah Surah 7218; 2945, 6162; 2014
Communicate with Allah Surah 443, 17110-111
Reverence Surah 232
Ask for help, protection, guidance, forgiveness, and knowledge Surah 2201, 2286, 3147, 3193, 11-7

Examples of prayer Surah 11-7, 2201, 2250, 2286, 38, 338, 3147, 3191-194, 475, 583, 723,155-156, 747, 7126, 1085-86, 1141,1147, 12101,1440-41,1780,1810, 2025-28, 20114, 2183,87-88, 2329, 2397-98,118, 2574, 2719, 2816, 407-9, 4615, 5410, 5910, 605, 7128, 113 (all), 114 (all)

Impressive. I haven't had time to consult all those passages yet, but how would you describe the main difference between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one? Is there an agreed upon convention among the Quranists for how to pray or is it individually determined?

What I know, I know from the Quran. Why would I want to serve a man when I can serve the Creator of all things?

I left Christianity because I was lied to all my life by men, on both sides of the pulpit. I see no reason to return to believing them when they cannot uphold the Truth that is still with us today.

There is merit in your words. I grant that Muhammad is deified by Muslims. I would be less than truthful if I said that I did not find it strange that you don't much care to know the biography of the postman who delivered a message on which hung your imperishable soul. To be clear, am I right in thinking that the Seerah and the Hadith are all just forests and forests of pagan fables?

Thanks.

Beardo

Salam, Peace and welcome,

(1) If one discards the Hadith, on what do you base your knowledge of who the Prophet Muhammad was because the Quran does not shed much light on his life story besides microscopically few lines about his honesty and general good nature. Nothing about his biography.

I will give you an image to answer this
When talking about the moon, one points the moon with the finger, you look at the finger or at the moon? Same here the prophete came and delivered a message, what do you think all is about, the message or the messenger?

That's a fine rejoinder. I will bear it in mind. I find the idolatry of Muhammad about whom there are many sinister things in the ahadith troubling.

(2) From where do you acquire the format of the daily prayers? The Hadith is clear on this score offering minute details about how it's performed , but the Quran is vague beyond measure.

Again, let's be rational, you have a Book (The Qur'an) that speaks about something let's call it SALAT, why you need to search somewhere else about what and how you perform SALAT.

An example when you have a manual for a vacuum cleaner, you don't search in Encyclopedia how your device work, you just try to understand your original manual from the manufacturer.

I guess I'm still reeling from my Salafi indoctrination. Your words ring logically sound, but it may be some time before my godless heart can register it.

(3) What is your view of the Seerah (biography) of the Prophet?

Personnaly I store it in the category "Tales and Legends", like many islamic books copied these tales from other tales e.g. the Isra and Mi'rage has the same tales with moses, the tale about the spider web in the cavern = same tale about Mary etc etc

Interesting. I'm forcibly struck by the observation that Quranists don't set much stock by Muhammad's life. Does this not expose you to the charge of following someone about whose character and integrity you are ignorant?

And the Mi'rage is related in the Quran I thought, no?

Beardo

in addition to what herbman has said...

It is a myth that Hadith detail "traditional prayer". They detail various methods, some of which contradict etc
http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0 section 11.2.ii

Point well taken. I will read that deconstruction when I get a moment. The contradictions I find don't quite bother me because they can be rationalised away. What robs me of sleep is that the conventional mode of prayer might be all sound and fury signifying nothing.

Beardo

Salaam Beardo,

The seerah of the Prophet is a useful cultural narrative for us to belong to the Ummah of Muslims. It has very little to do with the Quran itself. To me, thats all the seerah is, simply part of my Islamic culture. Nothing divine at all.

Uh-huh. As a Muslim I was aware never to conflate the Quran with the exegetical literature, but I want to understand whether you lend credence to the Seerah in part or whole or whether it should be stocked in the fictional category of supermarkets.

raginggaijin

Dear Raging
As per Surah 731 that you quoted, there is a mention of "Masjid" (English equivalent "Temple", I think). In this regard, if we wish to offer praryer as per Quran, can we offer in the usual masjids that are spread everywhere or (if you consider those usual masjids as offering pagan prayers, which are not prescribed by Quran) then is there a specific place that we should go to which we call the similar masjid mentioned in 731 that is not the one offering pagan prayers as mentioned by you?

Why wouldn't you pray in a Masjid? I pray in our local Masjid, though I do not participate in their pagan Namaz.
"The places of worship belong to God; so call not, along with God, upon anyone." Surah 7218

If you are uncomfortable praying in a Masjid, perform your prayer at home, as described in the Quran.
"And remember that which is recited in your houses of the signs of God and the Wisdom; God is All-subtle, All-aware." Surah 3334

Also, you have summarized in detail various Quranic references for Prayer. This apparently look almost the same as the usual prayers that people offer which according to your understanding is pagan prayer. Due to apparent similarities, it is difficult for me to figure out what is the real difference between the pagan prayer (as per your post) and the Quran prescribed prayer. Can you summarize the key differences between the two for my better understanding.

I recite the Quran by opening it up and reading it out loud, starting off where I left off at my last period of salat. (I have read the Quran from cover-to-cover numerous times now, alhamdulillah!) Sometimes my salat can take as little as 5 minutes or last as long as 45 minutes in the evening, when I have more time to devote to reading.
I don't recite memorized phrases of Namaz.
I don't perform Namaz - ritual poses and genuflections. I stand while reading the Quran, then prostrate in prayer. That's it.
Ablution is according to the Quran, not according to the ritual washing of the Islamists. (3 times starting on the left, 3 times on the right, etc.)
My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the building that surrounds the Kaaba. My qiblah is not the Kaaba.

Peace.

Beardo

Agreed! Allah did not intend for us to favor Prophet Muhammad over other messengers. Hence why very little is on him. The Qur'an is Allah's message to us. I am sure you heard the phrase "don't shoot the messenger". Same thing can go with Islam. Don't let the hadiths and fairytales snatch you away from Allah's guidance, just read his book

How would you respond to the notion that the Quran is replete with prophetic stories about Moses, Jesus and the like whereas the biography of Muhammad is well nigh absent, hence the need for a secondary literature?

Beardo

Different sects have different methods of Salat. Which method is correct?

True enough, there are divergent manuals on how to pray by conflicting schools of thought, but these I found were quite negligible in scale ranging from whether to flick your index finger whilst in a sitting posture to whether the congregation should press their ankles together whilst standing. The key details of how many rakat, what to say and when and what movements to make were all quite identical.

And is it not a fact that the method given in ahadith, can not be verified from Al-Quran???

Yes, that is correct. A pressing question Going by the Quran alone, when do the faithful know the moment one should bow or prostrate and what to say in those states of prayer?

Beardo

And many thanks to the rest for the welcome. I'm only responding to points of controversy about which I remain in doubt. I cherish all your contributions.

On a finger-in-the-eye message board like this I don't imagine that I'm the only godless man who's ever swam ashore to your island, but do you have members like me or are you all Quran Aloners?

Beardo

I recite the Quran by opening it up and reading it out loud, starting off where I left off at my last period of salat. (I have read the Quran from cover-to-cover numerous times now, alhamdulillah!) Sometimes my salat can take as little as 5 minutes or last as long as 45 minutes in the evening, when I have more time to devote to reading.
I don't recite memorized phrases of Namaz.
I don't perform Namaz - ritual poses and genuflections. I stand while reading the Quran, then prostrate in prayer. That's it.
Ablution is according to the Quran, not according to the ritual washing of the Islamists. (3 times starting on the left, 3 times on the right, etc.)
My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the building that surrounds the Kaaba. My qiblah is not the Kaaba.

I see you've preempted my question about the distinction between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one. You contend that genuflections are not a part of your salat, but does the Quran not enjoin that in the process of salat one should bow?

raginggaijin

I see you've preempted my question about the distinction between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one. You contend that genuflections are not a part of your salat, but does the Quran not enjoin that in the process of salat one should bow?

Do you bow down to prostrate, or do you collapse onto the floor? P
But seriously, take a look at the ayats from the Quran given for the positions. Allah explains the Quran.
Take a look at Surah 343

"Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudee wairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena" Surah 343
"O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble (waosjudee) yourself, and bow down (wairkaAAee) with those who bow (alrrakiAAeena)." Surah 343

In comparison to 2125, 9112, 2226, 2277, and 4829, where 'rakat' comes before 'sujud'. Islamists strive to show a pattern that follows the teachings of the Jews and Zoroastrians and Roman Catholics, making a time of study and remembrance into a vacuous ritual not taught in any Book revealed by Allah.
If you don't believe me, go to Amazon.com and buy 'To Pray As A Jew' by Rabbi Hayim Donin, which details the positions, times, and even includes 19 phrases to memorize and utter. All taught from the Babylonian Talmud. This was adopted from the corrupted Zoroastrian teachings of Babylon, during the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. The Zoroastrians still practice their prayer - the Persian word is 'Namaz' - to this very day

Zoroastrian worship
http//heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/worship/index.htm

Always ask for proof. )

Allah revealed everything in the Quran for a reason, and there is a reason why the Quran is called the Wisdom; it makes you think. We are told to ponder, meditate, think, and ask for proof before we believe. By what authority to people say what they say? Show me in the Book! D
If they can't, why do they teach it?
That is why we have iman - confirmed faith. We are not to believe that which we have no knowledge of.

"And pursue not that thou hast no knowledge of; the hearing, the sight, the heart -- all of those shall be questioned of." Surah 1736

Many people strive to make 'sujud' into a position, when it is an act of humility, submission. The angels (mali-katan) were told to make sujud to Adam (pbuh).

"And when We said to the angels, 'Bow (v) yourselves to Adam'; so they bowed (fasajadoo) themselves, save Iblis; he said, 'Shall I bow (aasjudu) myself unto one Thou hast created of clay?'" Surah 1761

This isn't an empty act of prostration. Using the Quran, I see that the forces of nature within this creation made by Allah is made subject to us; Allah gave us control over it

"And to Solomon the wind; its morning course was a month's journey, and its evening course was a month's journey. And We made the Fount of Molten Brass to flow for him. And of the jinn, some worked before him by the leave of his Lord; and such of them as swerved away from Our commandment, We would let them taste the chastisement of the Blaze; fashioning for him whatsoever he would -- places of worship, statues, porringers like water-troughs, and anchored cooking-pots. 'Labour, O House of David, in thankfulness; for few indeed are those that are thankful among My servants.'" Surah 3412-13

"It is He who made the earth smooth to you; therefore walk in its tracts, and eat of His provision; to Him is the Uprising." Surah 6715

"We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to carry it and were afraid of it; and man carried it. Surely he is sinful, very foolish." Surah 3372

Islamists read supernatural incidents into this, saying David and Solomon (pbut) could speak to birds in a Walt Disney fashion, and spirits went about doing chores for them.
But I don't see that. I see how Allah made the controllers - mali-katan, the forces of nature - subject to our will through the application of science. But there is one force that refused to obey - out of pride and as the Quran revealed, because it was created to rebel.
That force is Human Nature - Free Will. Our Id, our Ego Iblis.

"We indeed created man; and We know what his soul whispers within him, and We are nearer to him than the jugular vein." Surah 5016

Say the word 'Jinn' and people think evil spirits. I think humans from the Gentile nations outside of the Hebrew (Nasi) nation.
Say the word 'Angels' and people think of men in robes with ginormous wings. I see the forces of nature that do the will of Allah as He commands them.
Say the word 'Iblis' and people think of some horned red goat-man going about causing mischief. I see our Ego whispering to sate our base desires at the expense of others EAT, DRINK, FORNICATE FOR TOMORROW YOU MAY DIE!

I'm compiling a reply to your earlier post(s), so expect a reply later, insha'Allah.
But while I have your attention, as a person who is seeking the Truth and brushes near Atheism Do you believe in anything without proof?

It's a serious question; I'm not attempting to be snarky.
As a Christian I believed on blind faith. Then one day Allah showed me that what man was teaching isn't in His Books. Man lies. It was a valuable lesson Allah taught me I need proof before I believe.

Explanation is not proof.

Next time you speak to an Islamist, ask them how many times they have read the entire Quran from cover-to-cover. You will find most have never read the Quran.
How can anyone know what is in the Book if they don't read it?

You asked for a drink of water, and I gave you a bucket. I apologize for the length of reply and the extent of information, but I fear the next reply will be longer and contain even more.
The Quran states it explains all things, and contains a description for everything. Everytime I read the Quran, the more I learn, and the more I realize it truly does answer every question a person can bring forth.

But only if they want to know the Truth.

May Allah increase us in knowledge.

Peace.

raginggaijin

Was that message is the one which is available for us today in the compiled form called 'Quran'?

Yes.

Those who uphold hadith reject the Quran. Allah has not given authority to follow anything but what He revealed.

?Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind.? Surah 73

Take a test and see if you obey Allah and the Messenger, or if you obey the way of the ancients. This is ?pass or fail?, just as it will be on the Day of Judgment. Let us see who truly rejects the Quran.

Muhammad (pbuh) was revealed the Quran by Allah, and it was the Prophet (pbuh) who taught us the Quran. Only in the Quran, the pure, protected revelation, do we have proof of the Messenger?s words
"Say 'I do not find, in what is revealed to me, aught forbidden to him who eats thereof except it be carrion, or blood outpoured, or the flesh of swine -- that is unclean -- or an ungodly thing that has been blessed to other than Allah; yet whoso is constrained, not desiring nor transgressing, surely thy Lord is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.'" Surah 6145
That is the Prophet Muhammad speaking (pbuh). He states nothing is forbidden EXCEPT four specific foods. Carrion, blood, flesh of swine, and food blessed to another god.

Now turn to hadith, and count how many foods are forbidden within.
Then look to the additions in the Torah and find the same forbidden foods as the Jews ? Orthodox Yahduians who follow the Talmud, also known as the Oral Law.

Beasts with fangs Sahih Bukhari #5527, Sahih Muslim # 2721
Donkey Meat Sahih Bukhari #5521
Birds with talons Sahih Muslim # 4752
Amphibians Saheeh Jaami #6970

Beasts with fangs Lev. 113; Deut. 146
Donkey Meat Lev. 113-4, Deut. 147
Birds with talons Lev. 1113-20, Deut. 1412
Amphibians Lev. 1129-30, 42-43, Deut. 1410

Halal/kosher food Lev. 111-46, Deut. 143-21

Allah revealed to the Messenger that all foods not forbidden in the Quran were permitted to the People of the Book.
?Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers.? Surah 55

Who, when proof is given, is shown to reject the Quran and who is shown to uphold it?

"The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." Surah 1781, 3447-50

Only believers, muslims with faith in their heart who uphold the revelation of Allah, the word of an honored Messenger, pass the test.

Allah condemns hadiths Surah 7185,12111, 316, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750
?These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what saying (hadeethin) would they believe after Allah and His communications?? Surah 456
?Allah has revealed the best saying (hadeethin), a Book (Kitaban) conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.? Surah 3923

Allah protects the Quran, so the satans follow the way of the ancients, who created teachings beside what Allah revealed to the Messengers (pbut).
Allah states evil does not reproduce nor originate If they did it in the past, the same pattern will continue; they won't make anything new.

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

Peace.

raginggaijin

Fascinating. A thousand flowers of gratitude for shedding some light on your philosophy. It's been many years now since I've peeked between the covers of the Hadiths having joined the God-Is-Dead crowd, but I was labouring under the impression that it was from there which one drew the particulars of salat. So much for intellectual indpendence. To be clear, is it your contention that there is no such instruction for how to perform salat at all, or that there is only some partial details out of which it is constructed because if that is the case the people whom you call Islamists might counter that the information imparted by the Quran and Hadith combined form the modern prayer format.

Hadith speaks of salat in partial detail, but within the limits found in the Quran. So for a person to say hadith teaches salat is a blatant falsehood, as how Islamists pray is not found in hadith nor in the Quran.

I'm not sure I follow the meaning of "namaz". Is that another term for salat because I seldom encountered it in my Salafi incarnation? When you say that the Islamist form of prayer is pagan, can you support this with historical data? I know that the Ka'aba was a pagan shrine devoted to a pantheon of Meccan Gods one of whom was Allah, but the prayer is news to me.

Where do they get the 5 prayers from?
From the Jews ? Orthodox Yahudians.

In the book ?To Pray As A Jew ? A Guide to the Prayer Book and the Synagogue Service? by Rabbi Hayim Halvey Donin, we find not only the five prayer times the foundation for the memorized phrases as well 19 ritualized prayers according to Rabbi Donin?s book, found on page 74 to 75.

The 5 times for prayer are found on pages 337-341, divided between Morning, Noon, and Night. as taught in the Talmud. This is not the Torah/Tankah ? also known as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, but teachings written to 'explain' the Torah; the oral Law of Moses. Jewish hadith. (Starting to see a pattern here?)

Where did the Yahudians get their prayer times? According to Rabbi Donin, they were affixed by Ezra and the Great Assembly after their exile in Babylon. He even states the times were set to correspond with the time of services in the Temple. An outline of their prayer times is found on page 68.

These times were incorporated from the Zoroastrian ?Geh?; Namaz taught during their exile in Babylon. Zoroastrian Magi adopted the Kabbalist esoteric teachings into their doctrine, incorporating the 5 equinoxes of Venus and earth into Namaz/prayer; Homage to the 5 pointed star. Syncretism.

Earth-Venus conjuction
http//www.lunarplanner.com/HCpages/Venus.html

The same periods of time the Islamists pray and as the Zoraostrians prayed.

Prayer Islamist ? Judaism ? Zoroastrian
Morning
Dawn Fajr ? Shaharit ? Havaan
Midday Noon Zuhar ? Musaf ? Rapithwan
Afternoon Asr ? Minha ? Uziren
Evening Maghrib ? Maariv ? Aiwisuthrem
Night Isha ? Shema ? Ushaen

These periods of prayer are found in the Zoroastrian Avesta and still taught by Zoroastrian?s today. It is worth noting in the Arthur H. Bleeck translation of the Avesta, he details in the 'Excursus' appendix the similarities between Zoroastrian practice and Freemasonry.

Pharisee - Farsi

These teachings were adopted by the Pharisees; Persian Yahudians who follow the Babylonian Talmud. Pharisee, derived from the word Farsi ? the language of Persia, were the Orthodox Jews who were condemned by the Messiah (pbuh) in the Gospel Accounts, for following traditions beside what Allah revealed.

Follow not the traditions or doctrines of men Exo. 2412, Deut. 41-2, Deut. 624, Deut. 81, Deut. 1232, Lev. 184, Josh. 17, Mark 75-9, Mat. 153-9, Isaiah 2913, Mark 713, John 717, Col. 28, Gal. 43, Titus 19, Rom. 814-16, Rev. 2218-19

?But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.? Mat. 2313 (Mat. 231-39)
"For in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mat. 159

Just as the Yahud require to cover the head, so too do the Islamists. Is it any surprise this was required of the Zoroastrians as well?
This teaching stems from Kabbalist ritual of covering the head to harness 'spiritual power'.

http//www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380719/jewish/Mystical-Significance-of-Hair-1.htm

Polytheists cannot understand Allah did not teach Namaz ? pagan prayer. The word namaz or namaaz is used in modern Persian to mean prayer. It is derived from namazh, in turn derived from the Middle Persian namaach, a word with roots in the Avestan nemangh. The word namaz is now also used by Persian and Indo-Pakistani Muslims to mean prayer.

Namaz/Namaaz (Persian) ? Namaach ? Nemangh

More information on Zoroastrian beliefs can be found at
http//heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/worship/index.htm

"When thou recitest the Koran, We place between thee, and those who do not believe in the world to come, a curtain obstructing," Surah 1745

When asked ?Where do you find the number of rakats in the Quran? I respond ?You cannot. Allah did not teach mankind to pray as a polytheist.?
When asked ?Where does it teach prayer in the Quran?? not only are believers able to provide the periods for prayer, we can show them every aspect of prayer required of us. As shown in previous posts. D

Impressive. I haven't had time to consult all those passages yet, but how would you describe the main difference between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one? Is there an agreed upon convention among the Quranists for how to pray or is it individually determined?

I've delved into this in an earlier response, but the main difference between and agreed upon convention Reading the Quran. )

There is merit in your words.

These aren't my words. Everything I bring forth is given to me by Allah. He is in control of all things and He increases in knowledge those who ask for it, and strive to become a person of understanding.
Don't take my word for it. Check everything I say and confirm it for yourself. Don't take me as a guide when Allah is All Mighty. )
If He can make me - a Scot/Irish American, raised on a farm in a Trinitarian Christian family - learn this knowledge, then He can make anyone a scholar. Which is what He tells all of us to become in the Quran.

"It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophethood, then he should say to men, 'Be you servants to me apart from God.' Rather, 'Be you scholars (rabbaniyyeena) in that you know the Book, and in that you study.'" Surah 379

I grant that Muhammad is deified by Muslims. I would be less than truthful if I said that I did not find it strange that you don't much care to know the biography of the postman who delivered a message on which hung your imperishable soul.

What matters the postman if the Message is wrong?

To be clear, am I right in thinking that the Seerah and the Hadith are all just forests and forests of pagan fables?

In my opinion based off of study of the Quran and the religions of man?
Yes. They are forests and forests of pagan fables.
When you read the Quran and see that it teaches equity/balance, justice, equality between all races and genders, tolerance, kindness, forgiving, and self-defense, among numerous scientific miracles, prophecies, and arguments that refute everything brought forth...

...how can I not believe?

But don't believe without proof. Make them bring their proof; even me. Make them show you why they believe what they believe.
Explanation is not proof.

Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

May Allah guide your path.

Peace.

Jafar

I guess I'm still reeling from my Salafi indoctrination. Your words ring logically sound, but it may be some time before my godless heart can register it.

I forgot to mentioned that I used to be a Salafi too... LOL
Yes years of indoctrination might be very hard to disband in very short time.. you do need time...
Ask guidance to God, He will answer you..
And no... my dear friend.. your heart is not godless.... so please don't say that...

Interesting. I'm forcibly struck by the observation that Quranists don't set much stock by Muhammad's life. Does this not expose you to the charge of following someone about whose character and integrity you are ignorant?

First I don't consider myself to be a Quranist.. yet I don't set much stock by Muhammad's life story either..
And I don't follow Muhammad.. how could I ? I never met the guy!
There's 1400 years of lapsed time between me and him!

And so does with everyone else living among us now...
How could one be a follower of a dead people?

And the Mi'rage is related in the Quran I thought, no?

You mean the Isra Mi'raj?
Well there are chapter which is titled "Al-Isra".. which often being quoted as the reference for the 'Miraj' story.. yet if you read the chapter thoroughly (and if you read from english translation, please disregard the human addition which is indicated by the bracketed words) You can derived a conclusion that it is actually talking about Moses...

Salam / Peace

Jafar

How would you respond to the notion that the Quran is replete with prophetic stories about Moses, Jesus and the like whereas the biography of Muhammad is well nigh absent, hence the need for a secondary literature?

The answer is simple Do we really need it?

If the answer you got is yes.. then even the Quran is not clear on the biography of some characters which are being mentioned..
For example

Where did Abraham born?
What is Abraham birth date?
Who is this 'our servant' who talk to Moses and mentioned in 1865?
Where did he born?
What's his favorite food?
Did he like dog too?
Ah speaking about dog.. who is this dog being mentioned in the story of the cave in the Quran?
Is it a poodle dog? or more of a terrier dog?
I'm dead serious!! Because I'm planning to have a dog at my house! And I want to follow Quran 100%! As thus my dog must be the type of dog that's being mentioned in the Quran!
And where did the companion of the Cave bought the dog? I want to buy from the same petstore...
What kind of dog food that they feed it with?
Did they broom the dog at the pet saloon too? Which saloon is that?
Did they feed it 2 or 3 times a day?
Does it like Friskies too? Although Friskies is more of a cat food rather than dog food..
What you didn't like dog?
Why? Should I buy a cat instead then?
Is there any cat recommended in the Quran?
I mean the type of the cat of course.. a persian or angoran.
Does Moses like cat too?
How about Abraham? Which one would he prefer? A cat or a dog?
You really think he would prefer a camel instead?
What type of camel is recommended by Islam?
How should we feed the camel according to Islam?
Is it okay to feed the camel with Friskies?

(PS See how ridiculous the way of thinking are... and it can be easily constructed in 'monthy-python skecth' styled of dialogue and it shall became a perfect joke material)

Salam / Peace

Beardo

Islamists strive to show a pattern that follows the teachings of the Jews and Zoroastrians and Roman Catholics, making a time of study and remembrance into a vacuous ritual not taught in any Book revealed by Allah. If you don't believe me, go to Amazon.com and buy 'To Pray As A Jew' by Rabbi Hayim Donin, which details the positions, times, and even includes 19 phrases to memorize and utter. All taught from the Babylonian Talmud. This was adopted from the corrupted Zoroastrian teachings of Babylon, during the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. The Zoroastrians still practice their prayer - the Persian word is 'Namaz' - to this very day

This blew my hair so far back that I?ve had to buy a wig. So the Hadith mongers are recycling the conventions of the much hated Hebrews. Amusing. I consulted Amazon and broke out in fits of laughter. I had known that some aspects of Islam were pilfered from the Zoroastrians because the description of the Last Day in the Hadith where the masses are made to cross a thin bridge under which is the flames of hell by which the faithful and the faithless are sorted is a direct plagiarism of Zoroastrianism, but who knew that much else was borrowed from the mushrikeen. I suspected that Namaz was not an Arabic term because I did not encounter it in my Islamic days. So it?s a Persian coinage then. Fascinating

Islamists read supernatural incidents into this, saying David and Solomon (pbut) could speak to birds in a Walt Disney fashion, and spirits went about doing chores for them. But I don't see that. I see how Allah made the controllers - mali-katan, the forces of nature - subject to our will through the application of science. But there is one force that refused to obey - out of pride and as the Quran revealed, because it was created to rebel. That force is Human Nature - Free Will. Our Id, our Ego Iblis.

I observe that your reading of the Quran has a modern ring. I thought I would never see the day when the tale of Soloman would clothe itself in Freudian garb. It?s certainly more plausible than the Doctor Dolittle rendition one commonly encounters.

But I must say that I?ve always had a soft spot for Iblis. The rest of the Choir Invisible appeared to me as little better than mindless automatons without any self volition, without humanity. Here was someone who thought and behaved if not always correctly at least independently of the robotic angels. He was an individual. Not a mass produced thing on an assembly line. And as Mark Twain asked Of all the sinners of the globe, who is in more urgent need of prayer than the most deformed of spirit? The apposite response I?ve always felt was pity, not the hatred and vilification that is the everyday speech of Muslims.

Say the word 'Jinn' and people think evil spirits. I think humans from the Gentile nations outside of the Hebrew (Nasi) nation. Say the word 'Angels' and people think of men in robes with ginormous wings. I see the forces of nature that do the will of Allah as He commands them. Say the word 'Iblis' and people think of some horned red goat-man going about causing mischief. I see our Ego whispering to sate our base desires at the expense of others EAT, DRINK, FORNICATE FOR TOMORROW YOU MAY DIE!

A pressing question Do you reject the existence of the devil as a corporeal entity?

I'm compiling a reply to your earlier post(s), so expect a reply later, insha'Allah. But while I have your attention, as a person who is seeking the Truth and brushes near Atheism Do you believe in anything without proof?

In a former life when I was a member of the Sword of the Infidel-Slayer Mosque, I demanded no evidence beyond what I read in the Hadith. I taught lessons in tajweed at the mosque which I now understand have no scriptural support. A pity really, for the Quran Aloners might not care for such things but I could break out in flights of Quranic recital that would make the angels dance and bliss rain from the sky. Since then I haven?t much seen a Quran for seven years. My brain has naturally been wiped clean of anything I memorised beyond the shorter chapters which by some reason remain firmly etched in my skull. I?m not even sure I even retain the capacity to read Arabic fluently.

My present theological convictions are that there is no cosmic tenant beyond the clouds, but the more I interact on this board the more I wonder if my flight of faith had not more to do with the bottomless superstitions of my own school of Muslim thought. I rejoice to learn that your convictions are less zany than the hadith crowd because I had read a good number of Bukhari volumes and found them, upon questing on a philosophical voyage, one notch above nursery rhymes like the tale of Moses encountering a running stone and how the Prophet split the moon in half and suchlike.

But the truth be told I have to say that I found the regimentation of the human spirit suffocating, the ban on music, painting, sculpture and the general arts. I won?t be the first to observe that your movement has something of the air of the Reformation for Luther, spotting the layer upon layer of Bible-free Church conventions, warred too against the accretions that had slowly crowded out the true Christian essence. But Luther was opposed to the arts no less and thundered against ornamental churches so perhaps the likeness is not quite apt.

Incidentally, I rather enjoy the length of your posts in the age where most cyber conversations consist of emoticon filled one liners. No, by all means pour the bucket over my head.

Stray question Why does my cursor slow down when I'm composing a post? As I move it about to quote something it feels laboured. Is it a bug or just me?