Why cant we scientifically prove god?
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Peace, good logic.
What was the point of all that? If someone is disputing the existence of Allah (God) and the authenticity of the Qur'aan, how much sense does it make to post a bunch of Qur'aanic passages as "proof" of something? How foolish! With all due respect, this is a scientific dialogue. Therefore, if your aim is to manifest some type of evidence to authenticate your beliefs, you need to bring REAL scientific justification to the table - not religious rhetoric!
In other words, saying, "I know God does all of these things, because the Qur'aan says so," doesn't cut it.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmed.
You are the one who said the Qoran talks a "lot of nonsense" and contradicts Science.Remember!
I have given you verses from Qoran. Show me the nonsense in them?
Peace.
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Peace, Nashrullah84.
Have you ever studied the concept of gender-based evolution and sexual reproduction? If you did, then you'd know that gender (e.g. male/female) doesn't prove the existence of a god at all. In fact, it actually verifies the idea of natural selection stemming from a single-celled organism. I don't know who told you that you can scientifically prove the existence of God, but this isn't accurate.
Thanks but i was actually expecting direct answers rather than something along the lines of "have you ever studied...?" or "why don't you go and read this and that...". frankly speaking, if you were referring to antagonistic co-evolution as the answer for sexual reproduction, then please read my post again - "how did two organisms of opposite gender foresee the common goal that will be achieved in the final stage". i can go and read up countless of journals and studies on evolution but can i find answers to my questions such as why are the shapes of penis and vagina matched together perfectly like "nut and bolt", or how did natural selection know about penile erection before a sexual intercourse can take place, not to mention physical attraction, things like that. these may sound stupid, but if you consider every aspect carefully, it's not stupid at all.
talking about the first single cell, i doubt it would divide into multiple cells before it even had a nucleus.
Organisms naturally develop factors and attributes according to their specified environments.
if there's a need to change according to selective pressures, there's an urge. if there's an urge, there's a purpose. you don't need penile erection if it wasn't for successful sperm transfer.
Concepts like "complexity" have been explained very thoroughly.
please refer to my previous post since all parts must be present in order to carry out functions so which part should evolution choose to evolve first?
However, to allege that science can somehow prove his/their existence is ridiculous.
my answer is pretty simple; it's either conscious or unconscious, there's nothing in between.
peace, too.
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Question Why we cannot scientifically prove god?
Answer Because we are looking in the wrong place, with the wrong method for the wrong thing.The biggest mistake would be that we are looking for the wrong thing, and then conclude god doesn't exist. But hey, we are actually right! God doesn't exist... at least not the god people seem to be looking for. So then we engage in arguments whether or not god can be proven, and weather or not "he" exists. One group is blind to god, one group can probably see god, more or less, without even knowing it, another group is lost in religious fairy tales, and yet another group find the presence of god so natural and obvious that even religions seem like faiths of atheism.
Anyone has the potential to realize god and know god through themselves... but the whole drama of proving god is just a silly game of ignorantly trying to find a bearded male spirit in the sky through some physical science tools and methods... and miserably failing at it. It's like trying to use the most magnificently manufactured tweezers to find molecules of "shake" in milk shake, or using microphones from NASA to find echoes of barks in the mustard of a hot dog. And then of course our egos are always involved, making it impossible to have moderate and mature exchange of views with other people... except of course with those who subscribe to the same package solution as ourselves.
I think that the whole question of proving god is a sign that we have quite a wrong image of god in our minds, like god is some external, definable THING. I keep wondering why we anyway would need to prove god. First and foremost, TO WHOM do we want to prove god? To someone else? To society and people at large? And why is it so often those who don't believe in god that are talking about proving god? Is it that they want to prove that god DOESN'T exist? Why are we so concerned with that OTHERS believe? Prove to whom?
Anyone can prove god to themselves, but to no-one else. What is required is sincerity, honesty and OPENNESS. We FIRST have to be open within ourselves to the possibility of god. If we remain skeptical and demand proof first, then the ability to see god will not be developed, no matter how much god exists. It is only our own closedness that stops us from sensing god. It's like waiting for the green seedlings to break the soil, as a proof of the up-coming crop, before we decide to go ahead and plant the seeds.So, first, be willing to accept the possibility of the existence of god, and second, be sure to get rid of, discard, throw out, remove and burn your previous ideas of what god is. The chance is that those are just folklore, oftentimes based on fear. Why not instead openly and softly surrender to the possibility of learning about reality and truth? Either keep your old stuff, and stop looking for more, or be ready to throw out all your old stuff.... who knows, perhaps it is mostly bs? When I say that we should be willing to accept the possibility of the existence of god, then I'm talking about an openness inside... a fearless willingness to discover what we have not seen before... an unconditional openness. I'm not talking about a closed and dead theoretical acceptance of a possibility. That's just fooling oneself. But unfortunately, we don't even know about most of our own fears. But the question is, are we willing to learn about them... about our fears? Can we stop fearing our fears? It all starts with this willingness. But it cannot be faked!
but that's just me
sun
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Peace.
I think we need to form a conclusive definition for what "God" is. What is he, and how do we identify him?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace.
I think we need to form a conclusive definition for what "God" is. What is he, and how do we identify him?
Peace,
Ahmad
I think we might be able to agree on a definition of "God"... and to find it we simply just have to open a dictionary, because defining words and concepts can be done. However, each individual will then have his or her unique image or perception of what "God" is, simply because each person is unique and have a unique understanding of life and the world. Each person is at a unique level of understanding/maturity/insight/wisdom/experience, and this level can be changing and developing (at least should be).
I think that we may come closer to the reality by thinking about what God IS NOT.
In the end it doesn't matter what each of us think of God, since our relationship with God is strictly personal, and can only be just that. Insisting that one certain image of God is right, is just immature and foolish. Those who disagree with us may do so by sharing their ideas, and then leaving us in peace. What matters is that we, in this world and society, work for improvement and betterment of ourselves. This obviously spills over to and includes having a positive and constructive foot print on our surrounding, whether it be people or nature. Exactly what God is, is up to each one of us... but the quality and degree of sensibility and reality of this understanding/connection to God, will show in how we behave and act when interacting with fellow human beings and nature.
Peace all!
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Why can't we scientifically prove god?
Because science (or any technology) is product of solipsism, which, by its own nature is a product of Satan and an obstinate vanity of thinking that one can be "god" besides God.
One should recall the Bible story about building the tower of Babylon, short after Adam's exile on earth, where men tried to overthrow God by reason and science... and so on and so on...
(read the story "The City Coat of Arms" by Franz Kafka!)God created all, out of Nothing, by saying the word "be".
Man cannot handle the concept of nothingness, so he imagines the "Big Peng", but the explosion cannot create something due to intrinsic nature of explosion. -
Peace, GODsubmitter.
Why can't we scientifically prove god?
Because science (or any technology) is product of solipsism, which, by its own nature is a product of Satan and an obstinate vanity of thinking that one can be "god" besides God.
One should recall the Bible story about building the tower of Babylon, short after Adam's exile on earth, where men tried to overthrow God by reason and science... and so on and so on...
(read the story "The City Coat of Arms" by Franz Kafka!)God created all, out of nothing, by saying the word "be".
Man cannot handle the concept of nothingness, so he imagines the "Big Peng", but the explosion cannot create something due to intrinsic nature of explosion.So, in your view, can God be detected or understood at all? And, if not, why should we believe in him?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, GODsubmitter.
So, in your view, can God be detected or understood at all? And, if not, why should we believe in him?
Peace,
Ahmad
I do not like polemics nor vane pseudo-philosophic discussions.
We have God's Words in Scriptures, and the Final Testament the Qur'an.
All that is worth to know is there! -
Or even better why doesnt he just show himself to us?? Im really struggling with my religion at the moment and it probably hasnt helped watching all those atheist youtube clips challenging my faith!
I believe God does in fact reveal himself in the infinite complexity of the DNA code wow. This has also convinced one of the world's most dedicated Atheists, Sir Antony Flew, the late world-famous philosopher.
"DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.
What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!! To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night"
Quote from Perry Marshall
Read more here http//www.ucg.org/science/hey-hey-dna-proving-gods-existence-genetically -
Peace, hawkninetynine.
We cannot apply the scientific method to that which is beyond natural laws (God).
As natural beings, how can we detect, know and understand something that is (allegedly) beyond nature?
Our basis should be knowledge, not belief. We can rationalize that God has sent all these prophets and messengers to guide humanity, and we can conclude that his "final testament" is the Qur'aan, developed with the purpose of saving humanity from God's wrath. However, in reality, how do we know this? If belief is our foundation, then all religions are inherently the same; theists are all believing in the supremacy of their gods, and by their assessment, everyone who doesn't subscribe to their specified religious tenets are going to be thrown into hell and tortured for all eternity.
If we merely base our understanding of God on our personal beliefs and convictions, then how can we conclude which god (if any of them) is the right one? And what gives us the basis to conclude that anyone else's beliefs are wrong? For instance, whether you're a Jew, a Christian, a Wahhabi (Salaafi) or "Qur'aanist", you're worshipping God in the way in which you understand him. So, who is right, and who is wrong?
This is important because, based on fundamentalist theology, being "wrong" can have drastic consequences, namely being thrown into hell. In addition, being "right" has some very great rewards, such as being ushered into heaven...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, GODsubmitter.
I do not like polemics nor vane pseudo-philosophic discussions.
We have God's Words in Scriptures, and the Final Testament the Qur'an.
All that is worth to know is there!With all due respect, that position makes absolutely no sense! You're free to base your understanding concerning God on these books, but it's impossible for you to authenticate that position that these are "God's words"; and this nullifies the idea that the Qur'aan is God's "final testament". You can make this claim, based on your preestablished convictions; but you don't know it to be the case, which ultimately places you in the same boat as the atheist and/or agnostic. You're not sure that your perspective is correct; you're just hoping (wishing) for the best.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Why can we not scientifically prove God?
Peace,
As mentioned previously, if God could be proven scientifically everyone would believe and we would no longer be respited and the test thus nullified.
Obviously, God cannot be measured and since the entity called God goes beyond the law of physics as we know it, how can it then theoretically be proved?
It is certainly difficult to argue with convinced disbelievers and maybe also in vain. If one has absolutely not even a doubt that there is no God, and cannot see any truth in the Quran and also think there are contradictions in it, then there is little one can do about it. The choice to believe or not to believe is up to ourselves.
There is absolutely no scientific proof of God's existence directly. We can never discover this massive "force"(?), we can only see its signs, the world around us and all miracles.
By the way, define the phenomena "fire" or gravity and explain them scientifically thoroughly. I am certain you will start talking about the relativity theory by Einstein in the case of gravity, and even if you can mathematically determine how gravity works, you still do not know what it is.
Same goes for the fire, you can describe it and you somehow know how it works, but you cannot explain it.
How did all materials/substances know how to assemble after the Big Bang (or what theory you have chosen to believe in)? It is an extremely low probability that the world as we know it was created by mere coincidence.
You can most probably not explain neither of these phenomena satisfactorily. If you can I am impressed.
So let us return to the original question. Can God be proven scientifically? No, God cannot be. The same as we can most likely not prove what the universe is or the world as we know it. Can you prove scientifically why we are here? Can you prove scientifically what happened before Big Bang?
There is little true scientific knowledge we can actually prove, or if you prove it, you cannot explain why it works, just that it exists, as in the case with gravity.
If you then imagine God's massive energy which cannot be gauged, not with the instruments or senses of human origin anyway. If God would show Himself to you, you know God exist and this life has no longer any meaning. God expects you to discover and appreciate His signs. Seeing God would be cheating.
I recommend at least give the Quran a try, it is a guide, a blessing from God. Even without it you may reach Heaven if you are a monotheist, believe in the Hereafter and lead a righteous life. The terms Islam, Christianity, Judaism are just man-made definitions. You are a believer if you submit yourself to God alone. No need to celebrate, commemorate a single prophet/messenger, simply believing in His signs is enough.
I am a human, and all I said is relative, I may be wrong, but, Go willing, I am somehow right in what I just stated, even if not 100% accurate, especially the science part since I am no scientist. Yet I think I challenge you to explain certain science. You may know how it works and describe it, but you cannot explain the origin etc. Do not tell me it simply exists because then it is as bad an scientific explanation as religious folks say God simply exists.
May the Force be with you.
(sorry, could not help draw a Star Wars parallel)
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Peace, Man of Faith.
Your position is an interesting one, and I agree with some of the points you made. However, there are some discrepancies too. For example
As mentioned previously, if God could be proven scientifically everyone would believe and we would no longer be respited and the test thus nullified.
What "test" are you referring to? If you're talking about some type of examination concerning our belief in God, and having proof of him would nullify this concept, that doesn't seem plausible for a number of reasons. For starters, the Qur'aan asserts that all of us were required (forced?) to swear to a stance of monotheism prior to our births. So, from that standpoint, all of us have already gotten the necessary proof for God's existence, to the extent of possibly meeting him personally, even if we don't remember the event. Can't we still be respited, according to your ideology, even though we've received this degree of 'proof'?
The choice to believe or not to believe is up to ourselves.
According to modern scopes of psychology, we don't necessarily choose to believe. It's not a concept of will at all. For instance, if I told you that I'd pay you $1,000 to believe in a magical purple pony outside, you wouldn't be able to do it, no matter how hard you tried to believe in it. The lack of evidence, and your logical functional abilities, would stop you from being able to believe in this. Now, you could say that you believe in it; but that doesn't mean you actually do. In either case, belief is not particularly a choice in the general sense. In other words, we can't will ourselves to believe in something. Either you believe in it, or you don't.
By the way, define the phenomena "fire" or gravity and explain them scientifically thoroughly. I am certain you will start talking about the relativity theory by Einstein in the case of gravity, and even if you can mathematically determine how gravity works, you still do not know what it is.
Same goes for the fire, you can describe it and you somehow know how it works, but you cannot explain it.
The problem with your proposal is the naturalistic depiction of the factors themselves. Fire and gravity are principles and properties, not ideas. The belief in fire or gravity is totally irrelevant from a scientific perspective, since you can effectively prove that these factors are real. Even if you can't particularly explain what they are, you can prove that they exist, and you're naturally affected by them. Gravity, in particular, is a force that affects all of us directly. Sure, we can't see it; but we can detect it, and we feel the effects of its existence everyday. That's not the case with believe in a god (or gods).
Not only can "God" not be seen or heard, but he can't be detected at all. There's no way to measure God or determine the reality of his existence. We're not directly influenced by God in any way (at least, not in any way that we can scientifically determine). The only "evidence" for God in the theistic sense is the belief in him, which can't reasonably be authenticated by anything other than their own religious scriptures and guidelines.
I recommend at least give the Quran a try, it is a guide, a blessing from God. Even without it you may reach Heaven if you are a monotheist, believe in the Hereafter and lead a righteous life. The terms Islam, Christianity, Judaism are just man-made definitions. You are a believer if you submit yourself to God alone. No need to celebrate, commemorate a single prophet/messenger, simply believing in His signs is enough.
Indeed, we can submit ourselves to "God". But what God? Can we submit ourselves to Zeus and still be alright? Can we identify Jesus, Baal, Mithras, Apollo, Amun-Ra, or Ahura Mazda as the supreme power and still be good in the Islamic sense? Or, are we required to submit ourselves to your god? That's where the line is drawn. In a basic sense, if we can submit ourselves to any god(s) and still be good, then what's the point of reading and adhering to the Qur'aan? And, if we can only be saved by submitting ourselves (I still haven't entirely figured out what this means) to the god identified in the Qur'aan, then aren't we really required to accept the Islamic religion as a whole and adhere to the principles established in the Islamic holy book?
And, for the record, what "signs" (you said we must 'believe in his signs' are you referring to? Are you speaking with regards to miraculous events and supernatural happenings? Or, are you speaking about something else?
Thanks for your insight on this matter.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
You did not answer my question. I said you can describe fire or gravity, but you can still not tell me what it is. I knew you could prove why it exists or what it is. Mankind cannot see/gauge gravity, just prove it exist because objects are drawn closer to Earth for example.
God is a very abstract matter, proving Him scientifically, when He has not allowed you to discover the existence, will be impossible. We who believe in God think this is a test, hence I told you no one would be respited if God came around.
You can discover God on the personal level, but probably not with your attitude. You will likely not receive anything to assure your soul. Wait and see and I will wait along with you.
You are completely disbelieving in God and the hidden truth, right? What do you do on a believer forum? Trying to convince people that there is no God or do you have doubt about the religious question? Or is it mere amusement?
We will not be able to prove God scientifically, so you win this discussion. The only "proof" is the signs you seem not to believe are from God.
God will not show up either, you will live your life without having any interference from Him. Upon your death you will know whether we were right or you were.
Personally, I have confidence in God's existence, shame I cannot prove it to others, except by showing strong faith. You can laugh, but I believe in code 19, the signs of God with or without signature 19. The Quran itself is strong proof for me, but even without it I believe. I believe and God has rewarded me with further signs and I am made certain about life and the reason why we live.
This is my last reply, it is sufficient for this matter.
May God guide you.
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Peace, Man of Faith.
I'm not disregarding your position, nor am I attempting to encourage anyone to abandon faith in God. Personally, I don't completely disregard the notion of God, since I don't know if he/she/it exists or not... Now, is my aim to poke fun at all the funny believers? Of course not! For starters, I know exactly what it means to be a believer. I've been through nearly every avenue of Islam that I can think of, including
- Sunni and Wahhabi (Salaafi) Islam
- Shi'a Islam
- Hanaafi Islam
- Moorish Science Temple of America (e.g. Islamism)
- Ahmadiyya Islam
- Lahore Ahmadiyya Islam (similar in certain ways to the one mentioned above, but different)
- Qur'aanist
- Submitters (Rashad Khalifa's organization, which propagates the "code 19" concept)
- Nation of Islam
- Maliki Islam
- Hanbaali Islam
- Sufiyya Islam
There are probably others too! laugh So, trust me - I have no desire to criticize anyone for believing in the tenets of Islam, since I've been down more paths than most. In fact, in addition to those Islamic sects, I've also had my mergers with Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism, Ebionitism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, (certain facets of) Hinduism, Jainism, and even Philosophical Satanism (as crazy as that may sound to some)! I've been through a lot, and I don't regret any of it.
Due to (formerly) being a dedicated believer, I feel the need to ask questions concerning the factors that seem to have weakened my faith (or belief) in God and the Qur'aan. If Allah guides who he chooses to the straight path, then what can be said of someone like me, who was on the Islamic path but who somehow fell off of it? Does that make me destined for hellfire? Who knows... In any case, as mentioned, I haven't completely disregarded the notion of divinity. I just haven't seen any type of evidence to believe in God now, the way I once did; and now that I've arrived to this point, I'm not sure if it's even possible for me to go back to the way I was.
So, again, if you feel that my aim is to mock or criticize you and other believers, then you're horrendously mistaken. I'm just asking questions and hoping that someone is able to adequately answer them.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salam Ahmad
i'm not following all the discuss but read the last pagesWhat you understand under a proof for the existence of God? How do you explain the emergence of a new human being in the womb - this is not proof? The perfection and the diversity of nature? This beautiful Earth and this wonderful universe, which depends on the smallest factors, so it is convinced, not?
I see the evidence of God in the observation of nature rather than in the revealed scriptures.You ask "which God"- there is only one power that we call God, others call it Allah or Zeus and others call it the universal power.(etc etc.) Why do we find everywhere a central figure (with other 'Gods' whatever name? Just because the human needs a 'God' to explain the bad destiny, fatal illness or natural disasters?
Play the name a role? Or religions? For me No. Religions are man-made systems, policy I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I in Satan --- In contrast, the Deen of 'the only" is "worship" in accordance with our own choice - we are part of this system, we live and we die- we have all choice how we want to live.
I see few signs in the revelations, which contains similar wisdom, as an appeal to me. I came after i read much scriptures to the Quran and followed him and I felt much better - It is neither violence nor illogical nor abuse or injustice - the few commandments do me good - I only get good, if I follow this wisdom - that's enough proof ;D (I know his is not scientific )I was a stubborn Sunni and I felt bad. The sign of a mistake. ;D yeah
Paradise and the hell we create for ourselves, if we do not live in the system of God - if we don't try to be a part in this complex system. So, depending on the intensity of our wrongdoing, we punish ourselves.
But for all the injustices and cruelties which are not punished, it needs God - otherwise existence would be completely pointless. It would be no longer worth living because then all the best characteristics and the good itself would become useless -I could not live a second longer, if I can't TRUST/BELIEVE, that this all will be compensated one time. So is not the real issue How we can prove God? But Prove to me that life is pointless then I will become an atheist.
Sorry, english is a foreign language for me- - peace -
Or even better why doesnt he just show himself to us?? Im really struggling with my religion at the moment and it probably hasnt helped watching all those atheist youtube clips challenging my faith!
But I really can not understand why god doesnt just prove himself to me like he did to the rest of the prophets? Is it not unfair that the prophets got 1st hand evidence which I will not get and the prophets only believed in god once they did receive this special evidence (e.g. moses and muhammed who werent believers until they received the word of god)?
God is fair, He gave us thoughts and ability to distinguish right from wrong. If He just showed up Himself there's no point He tests us in this world.
Atheists can say anything to deny God's existence, they only believe in materialism but ironically their "minds" are neither material nor matter. But the truth is there, the beginning of universe has a cause. If you use your logic for every reaction there must be a cause and the cause is nothing but God. Who would have such power to create something out of nothing?
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Prophets were not just ordinary people like most of us. They were very, very high on the spiritual ladder, in the sense that they were very spiritually pure... so they were already "close" to God.
Talking about proving God scientifically is like for a software to prove the color of the fan cooling the microprocessor in the computer. God is not a thing to prove or examine because God is not subject to our tools of our 3d-world. God is not an object to study. I find it easier to simply say that since we exist, God is by definition there. God's reality can however be experienced.
An advice Stop worrying. Stop the mental wrestling. Your mind will just get exhausted. Instead, go inside and wish, desire, intent and pray, that you will become soft, open, receptive, clear sighted, so that you will start perceiving how this world and life works. There is so much there under the surface, unseen. It's not a matter of proof. It's not a matter of belief or fooling oneself. It's a matter of being able to see. Yes, some people pretend to see things. Atheists think all people who are into God or even spiritual things, are fooling themselves and only see what they wish to see. Well, some people do, but some people actually see for real, but they usually keep it to themselves because they know that it doesn't matter how much you talk about it, or try to convince other people about it, they will still never be able to convince someone just by words. For anyone to see beyond the mere material, whether it is unseen things or apparently unseen connections of cause and effect... we first must do the inner work, the inner gardening an cultivation. It takes alot of work, correct work. Like I said, it's not about intellectual knowledge... rather it is about knowing through experience and glimpses. Experience you only get when you are soft enough and open enough to perceive it. What it takes is purification. In other words, one has to be able to tune in to that part of reality. Just like some insects can see wavelengths beyond the spectrum of colors that are visible to us... we can get more tuned in to unseen aspects of reality... but it takes purification.
Peace