Why cant we scientifically prove god?
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Or even better why doesnt he just show himself to us?? Im really struggling with my religion at the moment and it probably hasnt helped watching all those atheist youtube clips challenging my faith!
But I really can not understand why god doesnt just prove himself to me like he did to the rest of the prophets? Is it not unfair that the prophets got 1st hand evidence which I will not get and the prophets only believed in god once they did receive this special evidence (e.g. moses and muhammed who werent believers until they received the word of god)?
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Any meeting with God, is judgement day. Remember what happened to the mountain, when moses asked to see God? This is what would happen to you.
It is possible to accomplish knowledge of God though. But you would have to expect egodeath, which is the same as judgement day. And you would probably revise your whole understanding of the Quran, and realize it is about knowable transcendent phenomena.
Going from God in a book, to God as in Absolute Control Of Reality, is quite a change though. ;D
But if you are passionate about truth, God, and ultimately noncompromise of self/hatred of satan, you might get there.
Isn`t that what prayer of guidance is about in the end anyway? To learn surrender, and come to know God..
Peace.
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peace Amm,
If you give the answer to the test, then what is the point of the test?
Different people were given different things. For example, if a prophet was given revelation or knowledge of God, more so than others, they might have to endure hardship, poverty, fighting, struggle etc.
The best person according to The Quran is whoever is the most righteous/pious/God-conscious . It should also be kept in mind that each person will be judged according to how they conducted themselves with what they have been given .
Amongst the ayatin/signs, we have been given The Quran.
You might find the following interesting
http//www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf -
Or even better why doesnt he just show himself to us?? Im really struggling with my religion at the moment and it probably hasnt helped watching all those atheist youtube clips challenging my faith!
But I really can not understand why god doesnt just prove himself to me like he did to the rest of the prophets? Is it not unfair that the prophets got 1st hand evidence which I will not get and the prophets only believed in god once they did receive this special evidence (e.g. moses and muhammed who werent believers until they received the word of god)?
Peace Amm,
To have YOUR proof that the god exists, you just have to ask him directly and wait to see. But these kind of proofs, once you get a feedback, are very personnal, and you will not be able to use it to prove the existance of the god to someone else.
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Salam,
Scientifically we know that all the known principles and laws of science breakdown at a singularity as we approach it. So, our scientific methods would only work in a universe excluding the places of singularities. For example, if we go back in time, to the beginning of the universe by BIG BANG, we can use science to explain things, but as soon as we approach very close to the point where earth and heaven were joined together, the laws of science break down. From that, the lesson we learn is that one cannot expect to apply the known methods of testing to directly test a thing that lies outside the realm of science, that is, at a singularity or beyond it.
I dont know if that makes any sense, but thats the kind of idea I got from Physics. If all that sounds too complex, that means 2 things,
- I failed to explain
- I wrongly assumed that you might be familiar with the background of that particular field of physics.
By the way, I am a big fan of Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Bill Maher ( i know he isnt a scientist P )
May Allah increase us in knowledge
------------------------- Student of Allah
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In Islam, we're taught that God isn't male or female... isn't a human at all.
To be accurate, the use of gender is more of a literary propriety.So.. if God isn't a human, and is really more of an "it" than a "he" or a "she" ....then, one might make the
conclusion that God is simply the force(s) of nature and the laws which govern them/it.This doesn't necessarily imply the absence of intelligence.
It's simply the essence of intelligence itself. It is also malleable. Gurus and mystics have proved this time and again.
It actually surprises us more often than we'd care to admit.... appears to have a will of its own.It's one thing. And if a person doesn't have a grip on where the sacred archetypes come from -- devils/angels, etc. (like the sky hello?)
then ...that person is playing with fire and subject to all kinds of delusion and disturbance.I see no real reason to prove God ....but, rather, a need to stop playing out fairy tales.
To come to terms with the reasons we use poetic, human terms to understand something that is much bigger than we.Salaam.
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It's not a question of getting a grip.
It's a question of the grip itself.There are several ways one can hold onto a thing, whether it be an object or a concept.
Clutching it... at the nature of reality, like a last strand of rope dangling over a cliff, is a kind of naf..... because that's not the way things work.
Defending ones worldview in such a way.... enforcing it ....is making a bloody mess of the world.It's more of a manifest dream that we are approaching.
We're not separate from it. Or why bother approaching one's nafs at all? -
Paradox Uncreated puts it rather well. Student of Allah and shadowpuppet make some good points. Sound contributions all round.
The measures of truth as defined by today's scientific community are not measures that God himself has stipulated for belief in him alone.
At a previous point in my thought-life, I too was determined to discover means of verification of the existence of God as defined by the Scientific Method.
However, as I have come to understand it, there is no argument in the Quran for the "existence" of God, the only arguments I can see are the ones relating to the fact that God is one.
It seems to me as though the Quran assumes we know of the existence of God and then it simply proceeds to demonstrate that God is one.
Thus, the means of ascertaining the truth about God, as defined in the Quran, are observations of nature; this is essentially the Quran's argument "Have they not seen........?" and "Will they not reflect on..........?"
Personally, I believe - based on certain verses - that all things have knowledge of God, though I can't yet conclusively prove this. This presumed knowledge, combined with the infinitesimal improbability of the universe's self-assembly, serve to give us, as humans, ample proof that God is one.
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...why doesnt he just show himself to us??...
But I really can not understand why god doesnt just prove himself to me like he did to the rest of the prophets? Is it not unfair that the prophets got 1st hand evidence which I will not get and the prophets only believed in god once they did receive this special evidence (e.g. moses and muhammed who werent believers until they received the word of god)?Highlights are from me.
Dear Amm,
I have a question for you.
Can ONE of the building CELLS of your body see YOU as a WHOLE human, or even feel YOU as a WHOLE being? I'm using this question only as a SIMILITUDE to help you think about the gravity of your question. I'm not comparing anything to GOD ALMIGHTY at all.
We are bound within the matter. GOD'S essence is IMMATERIAL. See verse 4211 below.
The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates. By this means He creates you (in the wombs). There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.
Science is all about the explanation of the MATERIAL world. Science is unable to step into the IMMATERIAL realm. The only way we can explain the existence of GOD, SWT, is through logical Philosophy, like good old CAUSE & EFFECT, not science. So, I think your question is not a valid one.
Peace,
Khalil -
Thank you all for your responses - and having read them and thinking about the topic a little bit I actually now feel that it was very arrogant question from me. Who do I actually think I am in comparison to Allah to think that I or even someone else can even try and prove his existence - implying that he is something of ordinary "matter" (for lack of a better word) which can be proved with formulae or scientific tests. So i dont think anyone will be able to scientifically prove his existence, but as Carl Sagan once said absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
My personal view of Allah is that he is all powerful, all knowing and he is all present (and yes i have heard several paradoxes from atheists in relation to how logically it is impossible to be all powerful, all knowing and omipresent - but thats not the subject of the post) . I also dont believe that he micro-manages the universe - i.e. moves every speck of dust himself but he has set everything in motion. I also believe he sits outside of this universe which is made of matter (and anti-matter) whilst also being present in a form of non-matter (again made of something unknown to us).
Basically according to my definition, he is unprovable for us mere mortals and according to my definition we can not point at one thing in the universe without pointing at everything and say that it was caused by Allah.
So i guess i cant win. I believe he is unprovable but why has he made it so hard for me to see / find him?
Also if i didnt believe in him then my time on earth would be no different than if i did believe in him, except once i die i will burn in hell forever and ever for not believing in him, which sounds extremely harsh as I would consider myself a good person but because i didnt see or believe in the evidence (because i was stupid or missed the point because i tried to use my brain instead of blind faith) i was provided with i will be given an infinite amount of punishment for my finite crime >( Does that sound fair to you guys? because it sounds a little bit harsh to me.
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Salam,
So i dont think anyone will be able to scientifically prove his existence, but as Carl Sagan once said absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Hmm, although I agree with Sagan. But can you please define what is "Evidence" as you define it ?
and yes i have heard several paradoxes from atheists in relation to how logically it is impossible to be all powerful, all knowing and omipresent - but thats not the subject of the post
As for me, all I ever heard was self contradictory questions in the disguise of intellectual thoughts. For example, demanding something like "dry liquid water" which is a self contradictory statement. You cant ask the doctor to make you a healthy fully functional dead person. Does that disprove the doctors ability to help you in that case ? For me, no it doesnt. The demand has a "syntax" error.
I also dont believe that he micro-manages the universe
Same here, I never expected Bill gates to come and run all the codes himself on my windows machine. I never expected Bill and his team to show up in my house on every windows update. They dont need to, they are smart programmers. If Bill can be that smart, Allah is logically supposed to be smarter. He would have absolute control without physical interference.
I believe he is unprovable but why has he made it so hard for me to see / find him?
For that matter, you must study the Qur'an. He will keep on giving tangible data that today in the modern world we can verify. Surely, we cant verify angels/heaven/hell/etc, but that is not All the book of God speaks about. Why dont you try to put the book to the test. Like find Allah's comment on something that wasnt known to Muhammad at that time and is a modern knowledge, and see if Allah is speaking the truth ?
And, why not ask him to increase you in faith and knowledge and do your part, that is, the research.
PEACE
---------------------- Student of Allah
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Peace be upon you Khalil,
I am in 100% agreement..The God is the No Thing from which all THINGS manifest. The God is THAT which perceives the material world but Itself cannot be perceived. It is that state of energy at rest, therefore no matter is formed.
Anyway, I agree )
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You can't, you won't, you didn't see God...even in judgement day.
God has a character???! -
All of these responses are sweet, very logical and intelligent. To me they are all different angles of saying essentially the same thing, that God is beyond proof itself.
He is defined as knower of the seen AND the unseen. Science/logic can only work with inherently falsifiable concepts; all that which is falsifiable itself IS the realm of the seen!
Now to put this into perspective and you will see how ridiculous such a thing actually is; Between you and the other side of the earth is a fraction of a second's gap for light to travel. In the space of this split fraction of a second that it takes for information to get to you, you CANNOT say whether your uncle Baba you left on the other side of the planet actually exists or not, Baba is outside your entire physical universe's history books for that split fraction of a second's space/time.
That is the realm of the seen, until it is seen, it is neither in existence nor non-existent. Yet on the flipside, your uncle Baba cannot truthfully prove whether you yourself exist or not either!
Yet on both sides of the planet both you and Baba exist and you know damn well that you each do. And one more party is even better acquainted with this story and we call that party God.
God is that which makes the moment NOW what it is, NOW is NOW right here for you, and right here for me even though I am miles away from you, in spite of the fact that light/knowledge itself cannot travel instantaneously.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Regarding the OP...
I was talking with my wife the other night regarding this subject. If GOD chose to reveal GOD to us, would there be any room for faith or for free will? As an example having known gravity, who denies it? Is there any room for faith or free will regarding gravity?
If intellect places demands upon your faith, then incredible claims require incredible proofs. Quranic proof
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
A strong/demanding intellect will show that being a "good" human is the most fulfilling way to live, similar to the stated beliefs of many secular humanists. If the Quranic system leads to a better life for you than any other system, then as a practical matter, what do you have to lose?
If no Highest Power were to exist, would a person be punished for believing in a Highest Power?
Matters of cosmic justice aren't really in the jurisdiction/knowledge/lane of humankind. As was stated in the Bible (Book of Job) "Who darkeneth counsel without knowledge?" confused
As a practical matter, how can a person lose anything by asking for help from GOD? Worst case, nothing happens. What is the best case? !
May the Highest Power grant all seekers an increase in useful knowledge.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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How can God be unprovable? Just because we cannot see our Creator doesn?t mean that he doesn?t exist. In my view an "educated atheist" is the dumbest of the dumb. If we are so "educated" then why can't any of us create a simple fly? God?s creation?s are complex. The fact that creation itself is not erratic but are filled with complexities which cannot be replicated should be more than sufficient proof of an All-Powerful, Super-Intelligent Creator.
Peace,
Kevin -
We are, as a race, educated enough to manufacture life and organisms, it has already been done countless times. Illegal in most countries though.
@The Question
God is the One. The One God knows the seen and unseen because he is the seen and unseen. We are all just part of the glory that is Him, Her, It, as it is neither male nor female, known or unknown, it is that it is. God told Moses "I am That I am". That's it, no one can escape from the fact that we are just one part of the revolving magnificence of the One God.
About scientifically proving his existence, Physics is what you would like to look into. Physics has proved many things, one of which is that energy never dies, it changes. We are all made up off energy, every thing in the universe is. This energy is still but just one manifestation of the lord, but the Quran calls you to seek out God in everything, and what more proof do you need then the basis of what we are will never die. We will always be, because we a part of that divine substance which is the energy of life and death itself.
Still God is infinitely times more than that, isn't that amazing??
The Quran touches on this in many places, here is one of them
228 "How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought youto life? Then He makes you die, then He brings you to life, thento Him you return" -
6102
That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things.6103
No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.If an Atheist ask, why believe?
Its my freedom to believe.nothing can prove nor disprove god, still Allah can put you in Heaven for Eternity simply to prove Allah exist, still how do you count how long an Eternity is?
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I have contentions about this. IMO the only people truly thinking "you can't prove God's existence" are rejectors of truth. Yet believers compromise and claim that the one single absolute truth cannot be proved at all? Don't bow down to ignorance.
6808 - Therefor obey/yield not thou the rejecters
6809 - Who would have had thee compromise, that they may compromise.Al-quran states those who deny the judgement are only wrongdoers (8312).
A large amount of people are certain that God exists, no? They have reached the absolute; they may not call it "God" but that is what "God" refers to.
If ALLAH could not be "proved", why send down al-quran?
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The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.
"...bring down to them a book from the heaven.."
Scientifically, Allah cannot be proven.
No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -
only Allah you put faith on, everything else, has to be scientifically proven.
