Question for my brothers and sisters
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in quote box are red.
If Allah does not say it, why do you?
Did I? Where?
I would like to take this opportunity to point you back to the Quran
"Say 'O you, the unbelievers (Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona),
I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion!'" Surah 1091-6Who was Commanded to say that?
"Nothing else they said but, 'Lord, forgive us our sins, and that we exceeded in our affair, and make firm our feet, and help us against the people (alqawmi) of the unbelievers (alkafireena).'" Surah 3147
ALLAH knows who the unbelievers are, and to ALLAH the people asked for help against all unbelievers. The unbelievers were not spoken to here, the unbelievers were spoken of.
Not only does Allah reveal that we are to call people 'disbeliever', but calling to Allah reflects this as well.
Where does ALLAH reveal that we are to call a person a disbeliever? Talking to does not equal talking of; I could talk about a dead person but couldn't talk to them. There is a vast difference.
It is not always the best course of action to call a person according to their attributes. If one were to call every illegitimately-born person we meet a bastard to their face, it would be true--but it would also be offensive, and what good would come of it? Another example is of a morbidly obese person. Which is more compatible with the Guidance of ALLAH for a muslim to say "Peace" or to say "You really are very fat" to such a person. Isn't a muslim supposed to say the better word/do the better thing? There is nothing wrong with using tact.
"God charges no soul save to its capacity; standing to its account is what it has earned, and against its account what it has merited. Our Lord, take us not to task if we forget, or make mistake. Our Lord; charge us not with a load such as Thou didst lay upon those before us. Our Lord, do Thou not burden us beyond what we have the strength to bear. And pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; Thou art our Protector. And help us against the people of the unbelievers (alkafireena)." Surah 2286
Proof is given.
Again, unbelievers are spoken of, not to. This proof is not compelling.
Allah is Guide, Oft-Forgiving, Merciful.
Insha'Allah, we will continue to turn to Him and ask Him to guide us to a right better than this.It is not an impolite word. Allah would not command the title to be said if it was impolite or improper.
Just as Moses (pbuh) asked Allah for refuge from being among the ignorant. Surah 267
Just as Noah (pbuh) asked Allah to increase the wicked in nothing but destruction. Surah 7128
Just as Muhammad (pbuh) was told by Allah to tell the hypocrites of the destruction that awaits them. Surah 4138
Just as Allah commands us to speak penetrating words to them about themselves.In none of the above cases were the prophets (pbut) Commanded to call people these words. Calling someone ignorant, wicked, hypocritical, or an unbeliever is impolite; none of these words are words of kindness. A person called these words is likely to be insulted; ergo, the words are insults--even if the charges are completely true. What is the expected outcome of an insult? An insult will never serve to invite another to a belief, plus we aren't supposed to cherry pick ayahs. We are supposed to comply with ALL Guidance. Examples are posted at the bottom of this message.
"Those -- God knows what is in their hearts; so turn away from them, and admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves." Surah 463
"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou stern with them; their refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!" Surah 973
Who was Commanded to be stern with unbelievers and hypocrites? Why aren't all believers or all submitters Commanded to do this? Penetrating words are not harsh words--they are clear words that are intended to be persuasive.
When the disbelievers are made known to us by Allah, then we are to avoid them and pass by nobly. Allah will deal with them in due time.
I agree, if and only if they are set in their ways. Otherwise, it is good to invite them to monotheism.
But when these disbelievers - kafir - come to me and profess belief, telling me I am not a Muslim because I do not follow their associate gods found in Sahih Bukhari, Appendices of Rashad Khalifa or Edip Yuksel, histories written by men and women who proclaim disbelief in the deen of Al-Islam, or their own hadith that intermixes teachings of the polytheists and esoterics I point to them the clear proofs found in the Quran and speak to them stern, penetrating words. Then I bid them 'Peace' and cease association with them.
So while you bring up valid points in how we are to treat people who do not attack us for our beliefs, those who do attack because we serve Allah alone had best bring proof as to why they believe what they believe, or keep silent. It's wiser.
I am not a craven man that I seek to soothe ruffled feathers when the Truth is presented. The Truth will set you free. But first, it's going to make you very angry.
I know who my friends are as Allah gives description as well. And Allah is Friend to the believers. He is the best Protector.Truth supports itself just fine without anger. Anger imperils logical thought and prevents civil discourse.
I have been called a 'disbeliever' and 'kafir' numerous times by Islamists, Code-19 Submitters, Quranists, and Christians, among others. I'm not concerned with what they think. I am concerned with what Allah knows, and what I am upholding - my beliefs and my deeds to prove my beliefs. That not only includes upholding salat but most of all doing good deeds and spending out of what Allah provides.
Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer.When you were called a disbeliever and "kafir", were you insulted?
"Those who believe, and have not confounded their belief with evildoing -- to them belongs the true security; they are rightly guided." Surah 682
So make investigation, test those who come to you seeking ties of friendship and marriage, and see if they truly uphold the Truth from Allah. No where are we taught to aggress, we are only allowed to defend. So be kind, judge with equity, be forgiving and patient. Then when they are made known to you, act accordingly. If they are believers, keep them close. If they are disbelievers, bid them 'Peace' and limit interaction with them or you will become like them.
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.
Unless physically attacked, we should use neither offensive actions nor offensive words--and all Judgement should be left to ALLAH. Personally, I like to use the "ignore" button to tone out the bombast of certain persons.
But as shown, those who uphold teachings of disbelief are called disbelievers by Allah and by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), among other Prophets (pbut) found in the Quran.
"But those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving -- upon them shall rest the curse of God and the angels, and of Nasi altogether," Surah 2161
Disbelievers exist, but nowhere are we (ordinary muslims) commanded to address them as such.
Peace.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
All believers are addressed, not only prophets (pbut)!
3118 And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For GOD does not love the arrogant show off.
7310 And be patient over what they say, and depart from them in a good manner.
4389 So disregard them and say Peace. For they will come to know.
7311 And leave Me to deal with the deniers who have been given the good things, and give them time for a while.
787 And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until GOD judges between us. He is the best of judges.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
3159 It was a mercy from GOD that you were soft towards them; had you been harsh and mean hearted, they would have dispersed from you; so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the matter; but when you are convinced, then put your trust in GOD; for GOD loves those who put their trust.
4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
1322 And those who are patient seeking the face of their Lord; and they hold the contact prayer, and they spend from what We have bestowed upon them secretly and openly, and they counter evil with good; these will have an excellent abode.
1426 And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle.
2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say Peace.
6108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.
608 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.
The preponderance of Quranic evidence is clear. Truth stands manifest from error.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in quote box are red.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
All believers are addressed, not only prophets (pbut)!
So you are stating only part of the Quran is for believers, and part is only for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). That is your claim?
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854
?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789
?In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe.? Surah 12111
"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." Surah 1037
Did I? Where?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602640.msg281937#msg281937
The OP asked "Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it."
I asked where this was said, could you show it.
You said 'Gladly'.
So why do you 'gladly' strive to show it or say it when Allah does not?Who was Commanded to say that?
We, the believers, are commanded to say that.
Unless you are striving to say that every single command of 'Say' is ONLY for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Is that your claim?
Unless you are striving to say we do not have an excellent example in Prophet Muhammad. Is that your claim?"You have had a good example in God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God oft." Surah 3321
Everything in the Quran is for the reader, not just Muhammad. You cannot make exception just because you do not like it.
ALLAH knows who the unbelievers are, and to ALLAH the people asked for help against all unbelievers. The unbelievers were not spoken to here, the unbelievers were spoken of.
So you are saying it is okay to call them disbelievers behind their back, as long as we are speaking to Allah. Is that your claim?
"O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate." Surah 4912
At least with me people know exactly where they stand with me.
Where does ALLAH reveal that we are to call a person a disbeliever? Talking to does not equal talking of; I could talk about a dead person but couldn't talk to them. There is a vast difference.
Proof is given in Surah 1091-6, as well as the ayats that follow. You choose to ignore them and to uphold talking about a person behind their back instead Back-biting. That is your choice.
It is not always the best course of action to call a person according to their attributes. If one were to call every illegitimately-born person we meet a bastard to their face, it would be true--but it would also be offensive, and what good would come of it? Another example is of a morbidly obese person. Which is more compatible with the Guidance of ALLAH for a muslim to say "Peace" or to say "You really are very fat" to such a person. Isn't a muslim supposed to say the better word/do the better thing? There is nothing wrong with using tact.
This proves you know only extremes, as Allah states clearly in Surah 608-9 we are to be kind. And yet you say 'unbeliever' is worse than reviling somone by calling them a 'bastard'? By what do you judge?
Calling someone a 'bastard' is derogatory; you are seeking to undermine their esteem. Coupled with you seeking to learn about a person's private life - are you spying on them or gossiping with others about them? Shame on you.
And you equate morbid obesity with mocking Allah's revelation that you would not talk to them but would only say 'Peace'? Is that your claim?And as for those who are morbidly obese, it is my job to tell them 'You are very obese and need to lose weight'. I am in the Medical field, assisting in Surgery, and we have to deal with morbidly obese patients. We cannot be 'tactful' when they are endangering their lives - both on and off the surgical table - by saying 'Peace' and letting them be. We tell them penetrating words so they understand the gravity of the situation that afflicts them.
Just as it is your job to remind and warn those who disbelieve. You are not to guard them, just remind them. And you do so by using penetrating words.Again, unbelievers are spoken of, not to. This proof is not compelling.
And he ignores Surah 109. It matters not to me, I believe in the entire Quran; all of it. I do not pick-and-choose what suits my fancy.
To you are your deeds and to me are mine. I am not going to be asked what you did, nor will you be asked what I did.In none of the above cases were the prophets (pbut) Commanded to call people these words.
Oh, so it's okay to say it in front of them, but not to them. Gotcha.
Calling someone ignorant, wicked, hypocritical, or an unbeliever is impolite
NOW we get to the meat of the matter! You say it is impolite to THEM!
Why do you believe it is impolite to them?; none of these words are words of kindness. A person called these words is likely to be insulted; ergo, the words are insults--even if the charges are completely true.
Because it is true.
To which I have to ask, why are you defending the disbeliever?
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
What is the expected outcome of an insult?
You say it is an insult only because it is true and will 'hurt them'. No where in the Quran does it show these words to be insults. If they were insults, they would not be called them by our Creator.
You are not striving to say our Creator is insulting disbelievers, are you?
You are not striving to say the Prophets (pbut) were insulting disbelievers, are you?See the problem you run into by ascribing attributes to our Creator that are not upheld in the Quran?
An insult will never serve to invite another to a belief,
Which is why, in my daily dawah - my actions - I do not act in an unkind manner to the disbelievers I am in daily contact with. I act with balance and fairness, and speak in a manner that we are commanded. But when they strive to attack me for my beliefs, they get the full of the Quran brought to bear along with their Books. All power is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
plus we aren't supposed to cherry pick ayahs. We are supposed to comply with ALL Guidance. Examples are posted at the bottom of this message.
Who is the one ignoring Surah 109? Let's see if you are cherry-picking further ayats, shall we?
Who was Commanded to be stern with unbelievers and hypocrites? Why aren't all believers or all submitters Commanded to do this? Penetrating words are not harsh words--they are clear words that are intended to be persuasive.
Ah, so YOU are saying WE are not to be stern with disbelievers! That THIS is ONLY to Muhammad? Is that your claim?
I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.
I agree, if and only if they are set in their ways. Otherwise, it is good to invite them to monotheism.
And how do you determine if they are set in their ways? Do you know the unseen? Are you given revelation from Allah that tells you they are set in their ways?
I continue to give dawah by my actions and through refutation when they attack my beliefs. There are people who I know uphold disbelief over Truth, even in my own family, so I limit my interactions. I do not take friends or guardians from the disbelievers. My Friend is Allah and He has given clear description of the disbelievers and the believers. If they are to be guided, that is up to Allah. My only obligation is to remind. As long as they continue to uphold teachings of disbelief, I keep them at arm's-length.
When you were called a disbeliever and "kafir", were you insulted?
No. Why should I when I stand upon a clear sign from Allah?
Why would you be insulted by a title given to you that is not true? Is your ego so frail that being called something you are not is upsetting?Someone calls you a 'kafir' or 'disbeliever', ask their reason. Then turn to Allah and bring proof from the Quran to refute the falsehood ascribed onto you.
Truth supports itself just fine without anger. Anger imperils logical thought and prevents civil discourse.
You are not a revert. You think all of this is in interaction, when I am speaking about ourselves. You waste both our time by laying your interpretation over what is being said.
Allah knows what you hear, and with what you hear with Surah 820-23, 636, 1747, 2451, 3053, 3918, 4130, 6416
When I was shown the Truth I was a Trinitarian for 28 years. To be shown that I was lied to my entire life, to have my spiritual rug pulled out from beneath me, angered me. Why wouldn't it? Being deceived should anger a person.
It was in turning to Allah and serving Him that the anger was cooled and He showed me why this deception is perpetrated. Yet even today, it angers me to see these people willfully leading people astray."You have had a good example in Abraham, and those with him, when they said to their people, 'We are quit of you and that you serve, apart from God. We disbelieve in you, and between us and you enmity has shown itself, and hatred for ever, until you believe in God alone - except that Abraham said unto his father, 'Certainly I shall ask pardon for thee; but I have no power to do aught for thee against God.' 'Our Lord, in Thee we trust; to Thee we turn; to Thee is the homecoming." Surah 604
Who is the one cherry-picking ayats?
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.
Unless physically attacked, we should use neither offensive actions nor offensive words--and all Judgement should be left to ALLAH. Personally, I like to use the "ignore" button to tone out the bombast of certain persons.
So why do you condemn me for leaving people be after giving reminder? Don't be a hypocrite.
Once the reminder is given, my obligation is done.""Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
Disbelievers exist, but nowhere are we (ordinary muslims) commanded to address them as such.
Says the man who ignores Surah 109.
By upholding that calling a person a disbeliever, a hypocrite, wicked, or any other title in the Quran is an insult, you are stating
Allah and the Prophets (pbut) ridiculed the people they were sent to warn, as they called the disbelievers by these titles.
Every single ayat you posted where you attempt to correlate these titles of disbelief with ridicule, you accuse our Creator and the Prophets and the believers who use the same titles of an evil deed.
That's your choice. As shown, I do not cherry-pick ayats to suit my purpose. And I do not take disbelievers as intimates, guardians, or friends. It appears to me you do not discern between them and take disbelievers as friends, intimates, guardians. Those are the actions of a hypocrite, someone who is ungodly.
?Leave alone those who take their religion for a sport and a diversion, and whom the present life has deluded. Remind hereby, lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; apart from God, it has no protector (awliya) and no intercessor; though it offer any equivalent, it shall not be taken from it. Those are they who are given up to destruction for what they have earned; for them awaits a draught of boiling water and a painful chastisement, for that they were unbelievers.? Surah 670
?Thou seest many of them making unbelievers their friends. Evil is that they have forwarded to their account, that God is angered against them, and in the chastisement they shall dwell forever.
Yet had they believed in God and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends; but many of them are ungodly.? Surah 580-81You are saying that every time the words 'Say' are in the Quran, they are only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
?Argue not with the People of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit.? Surah 2946
Is that only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
If not, why do you cherry-pick?You are saying that every time a disbeliever is called by their rightful titles - as you stated above they are true - they are spoken to in an evil manner, attributing an evil act to the Prophets and our Creator. Surah 4911
Do you call every person who ascribes partners with Allah, by following teachings beside what Allah revealed a believer?
Do you call every person of a sect of the Islamists - be they Sunni, Shia, Quranist, Sufi, Wahabbi, etc. - a Muslim?To you are your deeds, to me are mine. That penetrates to the core of the matter.
Peace.
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Brother I get what your saying. But my point is the term Disbeliever is thrown around very loosely. For example. you can disagree on an interpretation, even if you serve Allah do charity act righteous and are humble, because you dont accept their belief they call you a disbeliever. You dont see the arrogance there? There is a fine line between knowing and calling a disbeliever when you see one, and just throwing the term around because people dont believe the same. For instance I was called a disbeliever by a quranist for disagreeing that hajj means ankles. Now they dont know me or my actions or how I serve Allah. but because I didnt believe what they assumed I was called a disbeliever, even after I bid them peace. Peace be upon you
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Brother I get what your saying. But my point is the term Disbeliever is thrown around very loosely.
I agree. Yet I have to emphasize I am only responsible for myself. It is my actions and words and beliefs that I will be judged by. The rest, it is between them and Allah.
Though it is thrown around loosely, it only falls upon those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal.For example. you can disagree on an interpretation, even if you serve Allah do charity act righteous and are humble, because you dont accept their belief they call you a disbeliever. You dont see the arrogance there?
Disagreeing on an interpretation, as we disagree here, does not make one a disbeliever. It is in the association of partners with Allah, the upholding of teachings that Allah did not reveal, that makes one a disbeliever.
An example is a person who professes to believe in Allah and be a Muslim, yet he brings teachings from esoteric myths to explain the Quran; he is upholding teachings Allah did not reveal. He is associating partners with Allah.
Another example Rashad Khalifa. This is a man who professed to receive revelation from Allah, yet made numerous mistakes in his teachings. That alone proves he is not a Messenger, and those that follow him or his disciples associate partners by upholding his hadith found in Appendices.
The Islamists who come forward with hadiths uphold partners to Allah by following that which He did not reveal. He will say "I am a Muslim! I uphold the Quran and Sunnah!" And when he calls me a disbeliever, I can show him where he is actually the one who upholds teachings of satans, leading astray many men and women, and how he is in actuallity a disbeliever.That makes a person a disbeliever. You and I may not agree on this topic, but that does not automatically make you a disbeliever, or me for that matter. It is in who we serve, and whose teachings we follow, that prove whether we are believers or disbelievers.
There is a fine line between knowing and calling a disbeliever when you see one, and just throwing the term around because people dont believe the same. For instance I was called a disbeliever by a quranist for disagreeing that hajj means ankles. Now they dont know me or my actions or how I serve Allah. but because I didnt believe what they assumed I was called a disbeliever, even after I bid them peace.
I don't agree with you on hajj meaning 'ankles' and can bring proof to show why it doesn't. But that doesn't make you a disbeliever. The question is Where did you get that interpretation? If you are upholding teachings of men and not Allah, then you can be proven to serve associates beside Allah.
The root word for (kaba) means 'protrusions', which is also used for 'ankles' in the Quran and for the Kaaba protruding from in the middle of Masjid Al-Haram. So already you have a problem by interpreting (hajj) as (kaba), which is a warning sign to me; be careful and confirm everything this man tells you.But that doesn't mean I'm going to attack you or vilify you. On the contrary, I would bring proof to show why I believe what I believe and you are to bring proof to show why you believe what you believe. Then we both make our choices accordingly. If your sources include Quranist websites or Lexicons and not the Quran, you will see me distancing myself from you and bidding you 'Peace' after the reminder is given.
Allah explains the Quran. )
No where are we to treat people like jerks, and even then Allah tells us that though retaliation is allowed, forgiving is better.
But if a person upholds teachings Allah did not reveal, then I cannot say I do not know if he/she is not a disbeliever when Allah has given numerous descriptions throughout the Quran to let us judge accordingly. My only obligation is to remind, so I do so.
Then it is between each individual and Allah.How we respond to these people will prove if we are striving to submit to Allah's will, or follow our own diseased heart. Believers are patient under adversity, but they are not afraid to fight and uphold the Truth when it is required. Fighting to defend your beliefs, fighting for your rights of freedom given to us by Allah, and fighting to uphold the Truth by confronting the falsehood when presented.
Fighting isn't just physical violence. We will fight with penetrating words in order that our hands will not be raised in violent acts in the future, insha'Allah.May Allah guide us to a right better than this.
Peace and blessings.
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No I dont believe it means ankles either. sounds extremely eroneous and inconsistent. And Many Quranists dont understand words mean things based on context and seperate it from the whole book and take it alone. I should have phrased the sentence better. But I was called disbeliever for not believing that hajj is ankles. And then when I asked for proof and not an opinionated explanation. I was then called a one who follows traditionalism and said that I like to kiss a black vagina stone. LOL So the person got very insulting when I dont even uphold those added rituals not in Quran. But my belief and If I am wrong Allah forgive me. But it seems many are trying to manipulate and play with grammar to exempt themselves from any duty to Allah. such as saying Allah permits homosexuality, that the punishment for adultery is mistranslated, and many other claims that they merely never cough up proof for. And when I ask for proof they just retaliate with questions lol. Peace be unto you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments follow in red.
So you are stating only part of the Quran is for believers, and part is only for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). That is your claim?
Yes. For instance see AQ 3350, 3359, etc. A single example proves the point.
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854
?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789
?In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe.? Surah 12111
"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." Surah 1037
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602640.msg281937#msg281937The OP asked "Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it."
I asked where this was said, could you show it.
You said 'Gladly'.
So why do you 'gladly' strive to show it or say it when Allah does not?Granted. And then I clarified in no uncertain terms. When I wrote "You are correct ) in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense." was there a disconnect? It was not my intent to confuse.
We, the believers, are commanded to say that.
Unless you are striving to say that every single command of 'Say' is ONLY for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Is that your claim?It is a big unless. Yes, my claim is the ayahs that begin with "Say" and use "I" instead of "we" are referring to the Prophet Muhammad (peace upon him and all prophets). Further evidence is provided in AQ 7158
AQ 7158 Say O people, I am a messenger of GOD to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, there is no god except He; He gives life and causes death. So believe in GOD and His Gentile messenger prophet, who believes in GOD and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.
Unless you are striving to say we do not have an excellent example in Prophet Muhammad. Is that your claim?
There are parts of AQ that are particular to specific individuals and times...for instance AQ 3350.
"You have had a good example in God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God oft." Surah 3321
Everything in the Quran is for the reader, not just Muhammad. You cannot make exception just because you do not like it.
I see. So when ALLAH states "O Prophet", ALLAH ~meant~ to say "all believers." <sarcasm> Here is AQ 3350 for verification
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are maintained by your oath, as granted to you by GOD; and the daughters of the brothers of your father, and the daughters of the sisters of your father, and the daughters of the brothers of your mother, and the daughters of the sisters of your mother - those who emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are maintained by their oaths. This is to spare you any hardship. GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
So you are saying it is okay to call them disbelievers behind their back, as long as we are speaking to Allah. Is that your claim?
A disbeliever is a disbeliever. Who is a better Judge than ALLAH? In short, yes. Further, this is not referring to an individual disbeliever but to ALL disbelievers.
"O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate." Surah 4912
At least with me people know exactly where they stand with me.
Proof is given in Surah 1091-6, as well as the ayats that follow. You choose to ignore them and to uphold talking about a person behind their back instead Back-biting. That is your choice.
This proves you know only extremes, as Allah states clearly in Surah 608-9 we are to be kind. And yet you say 'unbeliever' is worse than reviling somone by calling them a 'bastard'? By what do you judge?
Calling someone a 'bastard' is derogatory; you are seeking to undermine their esteem. Coupled with you seeking to learn about a person's private life - are you spying on them or gossiping with others about them? Shame on you.
And you equate morbid obesity with mocking Allah's revelation that you would not talk to them but would only say 'Peace'? Is that your claim? oBastard is a descriptive legal term. Morbidly obese has a technical definition. A person is either a bastard or not, morbidly obese or not, and a believer or an unbeliever. Unbeliever is a term that varies from person to person, and is better left to the Judgement of ALLAH. I never claimed that one term was more insulting than the other. My point is that everything that is true is not necessary to say. Yes, I would only say "Peace" to somebody that was morbidly obese in normal conversation.
And as for those who are morbidly obese, it is my job to tell them 'You are very obese and need to lose weight'. I am in the Medical field, assisting in Surgery, and we have to deal with morbidly obese patients. We cannot be 'tactful' when they are endangering their lives - both on and off the surgical table - by saying 'Peace' and letting them be. We tell them penetrating words so they understand the gravity of the situation that afflicts them.
Just as it is your job to remind and warn those who disbelieve. You are not to guard them, just remind them. And you do so by using penetrating words.Cool story bro, but it doesn't pertain to ordinary conversation. No, it is not my job to warn; I have no obligation. It is a privilege from time to time, ISA.
And he ignores Surah 109. It matters not to me, I believe in the entire Quran; all of it. I do not pick-and-choose what suits my fancy.
To you are your deeds and to me are mine. I am not going to be asked what you did, nor will you be asked what I did.The language of AQ is deliberate. Why is believers not used in Surah 109? Can an ordinary person say the contents of Surah 109 and still comply with the rest of AQ?
Oh, so it's okay to say it in front of them, but not to them. Gotcha.
NOW we get to the meat of the matter! You say it is impolite to THEM!
Why do you believe it is impolite to them?Because it is true.
So, if somebody were to call another person an insulting name, it would not be insulting if it wasn't true? An insult is an insult, regardless of the truth of the insult.
6108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.
To which I have to ask, why are you defending the disbeliever?
I am defending politeness and defined Quranic behavior. Further, disbelievers may become believers, ISA.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
You say it is an insult only because it is true and will 'hurt them'. No where in the Quran does it show these words to be insults. If they were insults, they would not be called them by our Creator.
You are not striving to say our Creator is insulting disbelievers, are you?
You are not striving to say the Prophets (pbut) were insulting disbelievers, are you?Are these serious questions or just really weakly constructed strawman arguments? In no place in AQ is an individual disbeliever singled out. No and no to the questions. However, if the Creator wanted to insult anyone, that is the Creator's business and not mine.
See the problem you run into by ascribing attributes to our Creator that are not upheld in the Quran?
If I were to do such, I'm sure that I would, ISA.
Which is why, in my daily dawah - my actions - I do not act in an unkind manner to the disbelievers I am in daily contact with. I act with balance and fairness, and speak in a manner that we are commanded. But when they strive to attack me for my beliefs, they get the full of the Quran brought to bear along with their Books. All power is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
Who is the one ignoring Surah 109? Let's see if you are cherry-picking further ayats, shall we?
Ah, so YOU are saying WE are not to be stern with disbelievers! That THIS is ONLY to Muhammad? Is that your claim?
This is exactly my claim.
I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.
And how do you determine if they are set in their ways? Do you know the unseen? Are you given revelation from Allah that tells you they are set in their ways?
Exactly; I don't. This is why I don't call any individual a disbeliever. ALLAH knows who the disbelievers are and will ISA intervene as necessary.
I continue to give dawah by my actions and through refutation when they attack my beliefs. There are people who I know uphold disbelief over Truth, even in my own family, so I limit my interactions. I do not take friends or guardians from the disbelievers. My Friend is Allah and He has given clear description of the disbelievers and the believers. If they are to be guided, that is up to Allah. My only obligation is to remind. As long as they continue to uphold teachings of disbelief, I keep them at arm's-length.
No. Why should I when I stand upon a clear sign from Allah?
Why would you be insulted by a title given to you that is not true? Is your ego so frail that being called something you are not is upsetting?I gave the example of the word "bastard." Most bastards would be insulted to be called a bastard. It isn't about ~my~ ego or even ~your~ ego, btw.
Someone calls you a 'kafir' or 'disbeliever', ask their reason. Then turn to Allah and bring proof from the Quran to refute the falsehood ascribed onto you.
Excellent advice.
You are not a revert. You think all of this is in interaction, when I am speaking about ourselves. You waste both our time by laying your interpretation over what is being said.
Are you saying that your understanding/interpretation is somehow superior? You are telling me what I am and what I think, aren't you? If you feel that my messages waste your time, feel free to ignore them or me. To each their own.
Allah knows what you hear, and with what you hear with Surah 820-23, 636, 1747, 2451, 3053, 3918, 4130, 6416
When I was shown the Truth I was a Trinitarian for 28 years. To be shown that I was lied to my entire life, to have my spiritual rug pulled out from beneath me, angered me. Why wouldn't it? Being deceived should anger a person.
It was in turning to Allah and serving Him that the anger was cooled and He showed me why this deception is perpetrated. Yet even today, it angers me to see these people willfully leading people astray."You have had a good example in Abraham, and those with him, when they said to their people, 'We are quit of you and that you serve, apart from God. We disbelieve in you, and between us and you enmity has shown itself, and hatred for ever, until you believe in God alone - except that Abraham said unto his father, 'Certainly I shall ask pardon for thee; but I have no power to do aught for thee against God.' 'Our Lord, in Thee we trust; to Thee we turn; to Thee is the homecoming." Surah 604
Who is the one cherry-picking ayats?
I never accused YOU of doing so. The message is on a public forum; it isn't a PM. The message I composed is backed by Quranic evidence. We are told not to insult others. Directly calling an individual person an unbeliever is a flat-out insult, and there is no getting around it.
So why do you condemn me for leaving people be after giving reminder? Don't be a hypocrite.
Once the reminder is given, my obligation is done.I never condemned YOU at all. In many things, I agree with you, fwiw. I'll bet that you hate it when other people are hypocrites!
""Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
Says the man who ignores Surah 109.
What makes you think that I ignore it? I believe that the Prophet Muhammad was Commanded to say Surah 109; in the Message is an excellent example--not so much in saying it.
By upholding that calling a person a disbeliever, a hypocrite, wicked, or any other title in the Quran is an insult, you are stating
Allah and the Prophets (pbut) ridiculed the people they were sent to warn, as they called the disbelievers by these titles.
Where is a singular person called a disbeliever again? Perhaps some proof will be forthcoming?
Every single ayat you posted where you attempt to correlate these titles of disbelief with ridicule, you accuse our Creator and the Prophets and the believers who use the same titles of an evil deed.
That's your choice. As shown, I do not cherry-pick ayats to suit my purpose. And I do not take disbelievers as intimates, guardians, or friends. It appears to me you do not discern between them and take disbelievers as friends, intimates, guardians. Those are the actions of a hypocrite, someone who is ungodly.
?Leave alone those who take their religion for a sport and a diversion, and whom the present life has deluded. Remind hereby, lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; apart from God, it has no protector (awliya) and no intercessor; though it offer any equivalent, it shall not be taken from it. Those are they who are given up to destruction for what they have earned; for them awaits a draught of boiling water and a painful chastisement, for that they were unbelievers.? Surah 670
?Thou seest many of them making unbelievers their friends. Evil is that they have forwarded to their account, that God is angered against them, and in the chastisement they shall dwell forever.
Yet had they believed in God and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends; but many of them are ungodly.? Surah 580-81You are saying that every time the words 'Say' are in the Quran, they are only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Usually when an ayah begins with "Say", yes. When "Say" is universal (among believers) it is so stated.
?Argue not with the People of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit.? Surah 2946
Is that only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
No. It also doesn't begin with the word "Say."
If not, why do you cherry-pick?
You are saying that every time a disbeliever is called by their rightful titles - as you stated above they are true - they are spoken to in an evil manner, attributing an evil act to the Prophets and our Creator. Surah 4911
What gives one person the right to judge another? Not once has it been demonstrated that an individual has been verbally called a disbeliever.
Do you call every person who ascribes partners with Allah, by following teachings beside what Allah revealed a believer?
Do you call every person of a sect of the Islamists - be they Sunni, Shia, Quranist, Sufi, Wahabbi, etc. - a Muslim?I don't concern myself with the beliefs of others, except as that person chooses to reveal.
To you are your deeds, to me are mine. That penetrates to the core of the matter. )
Peace.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Let us begin.
You posted Surah 3350 and 3359 as your proof that every 'Say' command in the Quran is for only Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I did not ask for you to post an ayat addressed directly to the Prophet, as the 'Say commands previously shown do not start with (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu).
You compound your problem further.
"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), We have made lawful for thee thy wives whom thou hast given their wages and what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee, and the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee, and any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers -- We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own -- that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3350
"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), say to thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they draw their veils close to them; so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3359
These are addressed specifically to the Prophet Muhammad. The direct translation of (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu) is "Oh you, the Prophet".
Just as the disbelievers are addressed in Surah 1091.
Allah is very clear when a command is only for the Prophet and no other, as shown by the specific address of Prophet Muhammad.When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times.
Now you run into a further problem, as you are dismissing 332 ayats of the Quran by upholding your interpretion that all 'Say' commands are only for Muhammad, and not for the reader.
You also dismiss every refutation of argument given to us by Allah by ignoring every 'Say' command to the believers in response to the 'They said' arguments of the disbelievers.When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "They said."
I believe in the Quran, all of it. It is a guidance, a healing, and a blessing to the believer. It is all from Allah, and I do not dismiss any of it. I do not believe as you believe.
Granted. And then I clarified in no uncertain terms.
And I accepted your apology after you clarified that Allah does not command what was initially stated. You are proven to initially attempt to defend a statement Allah did not make. Only after proof was unable to be given by you did you 'clarify'.
No disconnect, only establishment of what you uphold and what it is based on.It is a big unless. Yes, my claim is the ayahs that begin with "Say" and use "I" instead of "we" are referring to the Prophet Muhammad (peace upon him and all prophets). Further evidence is provided in AQ 7158
I didn't ask if every 'Say' command referred TO the Prophet. I asked if every 'Say' command are only FOR the Prophet (pbuh).
When the Prophet is addressed or is told to address, as shown in Surah 7158"Say 'O mankind, I am the Messenger of God to you all, of Him to whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and of the earth. There is no god but He. He gives life, and makes to die. Believe then in God, and in His Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, who believes in God and His words, and follow him; haply so you will be guided.'" Surah 7158
As a believer, I can quote this as proof Muhammad (pbuh) is a Messenger of Allah, by his own testimony still with us in the Quran.
But I have not received an answer to my question Is every single command of 'Say' ONLY FOR the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Is that your claim?
There are parts of AQ that are particular to specific individuals and times...for instance AQ 3350.
I see. So when ALLAH states "O Prophet", ALLAH ~meant~ to say "all believers." <sarcasm> Here is AQ 3350 for verificationProof is given above. Even though the Prophet Muhammad is addressed, we the believers are told what to uphold and not do what Allah has forbidden. Do you disagree? I will repost the ayat and bold to ensure you understand what I am speaking of
"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), We have made lawful for thee thy wives whom thou hast given their wages and what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee, and the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee, and any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers -- We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own -- that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3350"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), say to thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they draw their veils close to them; so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3359
So, yes, it is for the believers. Or do you disagree?
And yes, it is for these times as well, up to the End of Days. No where is there a stipulation that it is for ONLY the time of the Prophet. We are still to uphold these teachings. Or again, do you disagree?If you agree with me, why are you saying those ayats are ONLY for Muhammad?
A disbeliever is a disbeliever. Who is a better Judge than ALLAH? In short, yes. Further, this is not referring to an individual disbeliever but to ALL disbelievers.
I will not backbite a person. Allah has given us the Quran that we may judge between people by what He revealed. I do so, and people know exactly where they stand with me. There is no deception or backbiting in my life.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge (litakuma) between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
Bastard is a descriptive legal term.
The Quran is the Book sent to all nations so we may judge between people by what Allah has revealed. By the same account, disbeliever is a descriptive 'legal' term to judge a person by. Proof is given above.
Morbidly obese has a technical definition.
So too is 'wicked', 'unjust', 'evildoer', 'hypocrite'.
A person is either a bastard or not, morbidly obese or not, and a believer or an unbeliever.
So why would you call a person who upholds falsehood a believer?
Unbeliever is a term that varies from person to person, and is better left to the Judgement of ALLAH.
Where does it say that we are not to judge people? You must have missed the ayats in the Quran where Allah tells us to judge between people by what He revealed.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge (litakuma) between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
"God commands you to deliver trusts back to their owners; and when you judge (hakamtum) between the people, that you judge (tahkumoo) with justice. Good is the admonition God gives you; God is All-hearing, All-seeing." Surah 458
"So let the People of the Gospel judge (Walyahkum) according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges (yahkum) not according to what God has sent down -- they are the ungodly." Surah 547
Do you want more?
You say Allah does not allow us to judge people? Is that your claim? If it is, where is your proof of this claim?
If you cannot prove it, why do you uphold it?
If Allah did not reveal it, why do you uphold it?I never claimed that one term was more insulting than the other. My point is that everything that is true is not necessary to say. Yes, I would only say "Peace" to somebody that was morbidly obese in normal conversation.
Are you not saying that calling a person a disbeliever is an insult and forbidden by Allah? You brought up these terms then ratified their usage.
A disbeliever - a term you state a person either is or isn't - with descriptions given of who these people are throughout the Quran so that we may judge by what Allah has revealed. By judging a person, we are upholding the 'legalese' given to us by Allah, so we may determine if a person is or isn't a believer.
Where does Allah say calling a person by their LEGAL descriptive title - to judge between people - is an insult?
Are you telling me that in a discussion, by calling a person a 'disbeliever' after providing proof of their associating partners to Allah, I am insulting them?
Because I firmly believe in calling them a disbeliever and providing proof of their disbelief, I am telling them penetrating words so they understand the gravity of the situation that afflicts them.Cool story bro,
Ah, part of the younger Internet community! I would expect the trolling to be a bit of a higher standard though.
but it doesn't pertain to ordinary conversation.
No one said we are to call people 'disbeliever' in ordinary conversation. We are speaking of discussions, debates, and arguments. No where are we to fight a people who do not fight us.
No, it is not my job to warn; I have no obligation. It is a privilege from time to time, ISA.
Then you have made your choice.
We are witnesses Surah 352, 9122, 2875, 2278, 353-4,23, 361-4, 6114
Helpers in Allah?s way (ansara Allahi) Surah 352, 6114
Share knowledge of the Quran, do not hide it. Surah 2283-284
Duty only to remind Surah 669
"Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
Confront falsehood with Truth Surah 242, 666, 6150, 378, 88, 394, 1781, 2118The language of AQ is deliberate. Why is believers not used in Surah 109? Can an ordinary person say the contents of Surah 109 and still comply with the rest of AQ?
You attempt a leading argument; what is an 'ordinary' person? You have stated above a person is a 'believer' or 'disbeliever'. So by your standards, are you saying an ordinary person is a believer or disbeliever? Is an ordinary person a Jew, Christian, Islamist... What is this 'ordinary' person you speak of?
As for Surah 109, I have heard Islamists quote the whole Surah at the end of discussions/debates with Muslims. So disbelievers can say it, in its entirety. And the irony is that though they ascribe 'disbelief' onto the Muslims, they condemn themselves. )
A disbeliever who quotes Surah 109 is already non-compliant with the Quran. They are disbelievers! P
When they have told me that, I can only agree that I do not serve that which they serve!
I then turn to Allah again to ensure I am not being misguided. Allah is sufficient for me. )So, if somebody were to call another person an insulting name, it would not be insulting if it wasn't true? An insult is an insult, regardless of the truth of the insult.
Again with the leading argument.
You say the title 'disbeliever' is an insult, yet you cannot provide proof from the Quran that it is an insult.
As well, in saying the term is an insult, according to you the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is INSULTING the disbelievers. Something Allah forbids.
You are digging a hole for yourself because of your beliefs.As for Surah 6108
"Abuse not those to whom they pray, apart from God, or they will abuse God in revenge without knowledge. So We have decked out fair to every nation their deeds; then to their Lord they shall return, and He will tell them what they have been doing." Surah 6108Don't mock their gods, or they will lash out at Allah mocking Him in retaliation.
Are these serious questions or just really weakly constructed strawman arguments?
If they are strawman, refute them.
Do you not uphold that the term 'disbeliever' is an insult? Yes or no. If yes...
Does it 'Say' in Surah 1091 "Oh you, the disbelievers'? Yes or no. If yes...
Are you saying Prophet Muhammad called a group of people an insulting name in Surah 1091? Yes or no.In no place in AQ is an individual disbeliever singled out. No and no to the questions. However, if the Creator wanted to insult anyone, that is the Creator's business and not mine.
So according to you it is okay to call a group of people disbelievers and it is not an insult? You wrote
I am defending politeness and defined Quranic behavior.
But your interpretation of what is an insult and what is not reminds me of the Political Correctness of this era. It's okay to insult a group but not the individual? o
What makes up the group? Individuals!
I do not believe our Creator would insult anyone. To you are your beliefs, and to me are mine.
Ah, so YOU are saying WE are not to be stern with disbelievers! That THIS is ONLY to Muhammad? Is that your claim?
This is exactly my claim.
Okie doke. Proof is given why I do not believe as you believe.
"O believers, whosoever of you turns from his religion, God will assuredly bring a people He loves, and who love Him, humble towards the believers, mighty (aizzatin) against the unbelievers, men who struggle in the path of God, not fearing the reproach of any reproacher. That is God's bounty; He gives it unto whom He will; and God is All-embracing, All-knowing." Surah 554
"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness (ghil'atan); and know that God is with the godfearing." Surah 9123
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe (ashiddu) against the unbelievers (l-kufri), merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
To you are your deeds, to me are mine.
?O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport -- and fear God, if you are believers ?? Surah 557
?Thou seest many of them making unbelievers their friends. Evil is that they have forwarded to their account, that God is angered against them, and in the chastisement they shall dwell forever.
Yet had they believed in God and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends; but many of them are ungodly.? Surah 580-81Exactly; I don't. This is why I don't call any individual a disbeliever. ALLAH knows who the disbelievers are and will ISA intervene as necessary.
So you do not judge between people by what Allah has sent down? Am I understanding you correctly?
So you will marry a disbeliever, because you do not judge by what Allah has sent down?
Serious question. How are you going to figure out if a woman is a believer or not if you don't judge by what Allah revealed in the Quran? At some point you will have to make a decision - to judge - on whether a woman is a believer or not.
What criteria will you use? OAre you saying that your understanding/interpretation is somehow superior? You are telling me what I am and what I think, aren't you? If you feel that my messages waste your time, feel free to ignore them or me. To each their own.
In the End we will know who judged by what Allah revealed, and who took satans as friends and guardians instead of judging accordingly by what Allah sent down.
I'm not here to guide anyone. I am bringing proofs to show why I believe what I believe, and refuting what I am being told by those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal.
I'm responding to you for myself. Refuting falsehood with Truth and strengthening my iman.Note your response below
Directly calling an individual person an unbeliever is a flat-out insult, and there is no getting around it.
And yet you started off this response with
"You are correct Smiley in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense."
You are a young man of two minds.
I believe that the Prophet Muhammad was Commanded to say Surah 109; in the Message is an excellent example--not so much in saying it.
You are saying the Prophet Muhammad was commanded by Allah to insult people.
Your own words are manifest proof.Exactly; I don't. This is why I don't call any individual a disbeliever. ALLAH knows who the disbelievers are and will ISA intervene as necessary.
Again, you say you do not judge between a people by what Allah revealed? Am I correct in understanding this?
I gave the example of the word "bastard." Most bastards would be insulted to be called a bastard.
Why is it insulting?
Because it is true.It isn't about ~my~ ego or even ~your~ ego, btw.
Oh, but it is. Words do not contain any power except what you give them. If it stings you it is because it stings your ego. Penetrating words hurt the ego.
Where is a singular person called a disbeliever again? Perhaps some proof will be forthcoming?
Oh, so now it gets narrowed down to an individual! It's okay to call a group of people disbelievers, but not an individual! Let's ignore the fact that a group of people is comprised of individuals.
You cannot see the problems your interpretations bring up, can you?Usually when an ayah begins with "Say", yes. When "Say" is universal (among believers) it is so stated.
?Argue not with the People of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit.? Surah 2946
Is that only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
No. It also doesn't begin with the word "Say."
So the ayats that begin with 'Say' are dismissed by you as they are only for Prophet Muhammad, according to what you just stated.
How many ayats do you throw out of the Quran by upholding this belief?What gives one person the right to judge another?
Allah. Proof is given above. You deny it.
How will you marry a believer when you are forbidden to marry a disbeliever, an idolator, if you do not test her and judge accordingly? P
Will you marry a Sunni? A Shia? Ahmadi? Quranist? Christian Trinitarian? Orthodox Jew?
How are you going to judge if a person is allowed to be your spouse?Not once has it been demonstrated that an individual has been verbally called a disbeliever.
Says the young man who ignores Surah 1091.
Individuals make up a group.
By what do you judge? ???"He said, 'Indeed thou knowest that none sent these down, except the Lord of the heavens and earth, as clear proofs; and, Pharaoh, I think thou art accursed.'" Surah 17102
To you are your deeds, to me are mine.
I bid you 'Peace'. ) -
On one hand, your criticism is right on the point, on the other hand, it missed the most important point.
Without right mind, just political system, sound principles, a society cannot have right actions. A society inflicted with superstitions, misigony, intolerence, bigotry, will not benefit much from charity or other good deeds. Individual freedom to choose, critical thinking, standing for justice, and tolerance are necessary components of a good society. Thus, discussing principles and issues is crucial to attain such a society.
I do not think that it is the lack of charitable people in Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia that has doomed those countries to backwardness and misery. Perhaps there are more charitable and nice people in those countries than in Switzerland or Holland.
I would like to address one of your statements
"A verse I try to always be mindful of is surah 37. It reminds us that we will never fully understand the Quran."
This verse informs us that to understand multiple-meaning verses one needs knowledge AND good/right intention. Below is our translation of the verse and related discussion from Quran a Reformist Translation
37 He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.*
003007 The Arabic word we have trans-lated as "multiple meanings" is mutasha-bihat. The word comes from shabaha (to became similar), and its singular form is mutashabih, which means "similar," "multiple-meaning," or "allegorical" (see 2118; 270; 4157; 699; 6141; 225). The verse about the mutashabih (allegorical or multi-meaning) verses itself is mutashabih. This is one of the most commonly mis-translated verses, and it has crucial implications for understanding the Quran. See 2106; 1644; 1746; 2314; 4144; 5679 for examples of multiple-meaning statements. Also, See 3923.
The word can be confusing for a novice. Verse 3923, for instance, uses mutasha-bihat for the entire Quran, referring to its overall similarity -- in other words, its consistency. In a narrower sense, however, mutashabihat refers to all verses which can be understood in more than one way. The various meanings or implications require some special qualities from the person listening to or reading the Quran an attentive mind, a positive attitude, contextual perspective, the patience nec-essary for research, and so forth.
It is one of the intriguing features of the Quran that the verse about mutashabih verses of the Quran is itself mutashabih -- that is, it has multiple meanings. The word in question, for instance, can mean "simi-lar", as we have seen; it can mean, "possessing multiple meanings"; it can also mean "allegorical" (where one single, clearly identifiable element represents another single, clearly identifiable element).
As you may have noticed, interpretation of the last part of 37 depends on how one punctuates the verse. (There is no punctu-ation in the original Arabic text.)
If one stops after the word "God", then one will assume, as centuries of Sunni and Shiite scholars have, that even those who possess deep levels of knowledge will never be able to understand the "mutasha-bih" verses. However, if the sentence does not stop there, the meaning will change to the opposite Those who possess knowledge will be able to understand the meaning of allegorical or multiple-meaning verses. For a detailed discussion on this verse, see the Sample Comparisons section in the Introduction. -
A society inflicted with superstitions, misigony, intolerence, bigotry, will not benefit much from charity or other good deeds.
Good quote.. Bey Edip... and it's very true...
Individual freedom to choose, critical thinking, standing for justice, and tolerance are necessary components of a good society. Thus, discussing principles and issues is crucial to attain such a society.
Individual freedom, critical thinking, tolerance and justice..
Myriad of dictators and oppressors always have suppressed those throughout the history..I do not think that it is the lack of charitable people in Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia that has doomed those countries to backwardness and misery. Perhaps there are more charitable and nice people in those countries than in Switzerland or Holland.
Again very true..
I'm starting to build a hypothesis that 'sectarianism' / 'religion' functioned the same way as 'political party' in today's world. Or in other words; religion/sect IS the political party of the ancient world. There are lot of similarities between those two, some of those are- Convertion ritual (from one party/religion to another)
- Punishment for abandoning the party / religion (murtad, apostate, act of disloyalty)
- Competition to attain masses (convertion) as thus every religion tried very hard to prove that they are better than the other competing religions.
- Hatred and dissent towards members of other parties / religions. (Sunni vs Shiites, Sunni vs Judaism, Sunni vs Christianity, Democrats vs Republics)
- Mass hypnotizing through repetitive propaganda. (that's why critical thinking need to be oppressed as it stands against the objective of propaganda)
- The existence of "Single Religion Country" which in many ways bears many resemblance with "Single Political Party Country" as we know today (i.e. compare China, Soviet Union with Saudi Arabia). The 'authorized sect/religion/political party' shall try to demonize, oppress their competitors and/or eliminate them in entirely.
Salam / Peace