Qiblah Argument: "Kanat"
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The known fools/Muna'afiqeen from amongst the people will enquire/keep conversing amongst themselves; "What is that which has caused them turn away from their Qib'laa'tae, the one upon which they henceforth remained adhered?"
You the Messenger Muhammad pronounce ; "The East and the West are the domain for Allah ........Word by Word 2142
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peace Mushu, all,
My notes on these verses are quite extensive.
Basically, I take these verses as a change of focus/direction from whatever the people with the messenger were following before, in favour of racing towards unity, good deeds, brotherhood etc which are are all part of the inviolable time/institute of acknowledgement.
It is not about a physical direction. The verses themselves disprove that. No-one who changes from one direction to another gives the reason of "to God belongs the east and the west..." as this implies direction is irrelevant, and one direction is as good as another. Amongst other things.
The timing of these verses are related to nearing end-stage of community development, which ultimately leads to a confederation of believers.
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Peace,
Wakas, I hope you don't mind me quoting some of your notes here
I think we're actually thinking along the same lines, although I'd like to clarify a few things regarding your thoughts on what the change was, if there was one.
If anything, it suggests from physical to non-physical.
and
It may be interesting to note that AQ points out it made the believers a "balanced/wasatan nation" in 2143 after mentioning in 2141 those nations were of the past, and what they done is for them, and what you do is for you, implying a break away from the past and a possible change in direction/focus was about to take place.
From these I take it you believe there was indeed a previous qib'la and then a new one as per 2/143, although it would have been a physical qib'la to a non-physical qib'la.
If we understand that the quran is merely a reminder for what was already the way of Ibrahim, surely our qib'la would be the same as his?
If physical direction existed 2148 usurps this concept and replaces it with "race towards good", i.e. THAT is the qiblah/focus/direction.
I wonder why this would constitute a change, given that racing to the good would have been a fundamental part of the millat of Ibrahim.
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peace Mushu,
Yes, I do mind a little. As I said to you when I sent them "they may or may not be accurate" and "they may or may not make sense", i.e. they are unrefined incomplete thoughts.
Perhaps I would have minded less, if you stated this when posting them.
In any case, no big deal
From these I take it you believe there was indeed a previous qib'la and then a new one as per 2/143
Yes.
...although it would have been a physical qib'la to a non-physical qib'la.
No. I said "if anything....." meaning if people wish to argue it was from one physical direction to another physical direction, the verse implies, if anything, from physical to non-physical.
I wonder why this would constitute a change, given that racing to the good would have been a fundamental part of the millat of Ibrahim.
Well "race to the good" via/utilising a specific route, i.e. al masjid al haram, could constitute a change in focus/qiblah. As I said, my notes are not refined/complete thoughts.
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Peace Wakas,
peace Mushu,
Yes, I do mind a little. As I said to you when I sent them "they may or may not be accurate" and "they may or may not make sense", i.e. they are unrefined incomplete thoughts.
Perhaps I would have minded less, if you stated this when posting them.
I'm really sorry bro. I thought perhaps brainstorming in public may help refine our thoughts on this.
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I'm wondering whether there was a "turn" to begin with. 2/142 says the foolish from the people will ask the question, not the people in general. We could assume that a change in qib'la would raise questions from most people, not just the foolish ones. Is it that the foolish simply did not understand what the believers were doing, and assumed they had turned? "To Allah belongs the east and the west" may mean that the qib'la is as wide as the horizon, and that there was no turn at all.
If the qib'la is to race to the good, as per 2/148, then the phrase in 2/143, "And indeed, it was difficult except for those whom Allah guided", could be saying that racing to the good was made something difficult before, as a means to test who would follow the messenger.
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Its no biggie. I'm just sensitive of my work, hence attach a disclaimer on pretty much everything I write.
For me, the word "qiblah/focus/direction" is not something special, and those verses prove it by saying each person having their own "qiblah". Note how some are then forced to say the people of the book had two "prayer directions" otherwise their view will fail, e.g. see Mazhar's translation.
The reason I think there was a change, is due to the Arabic and the context/logic. I would need to have someone check over the Arabic and say it does not necessarily imply a change, before I concluded further.
We could assume that a change in qib'la would raise questions from most people, not just the foolish ones.
I think you potentially have a valid point here. Perhaps we can consider what kind of change would illicit such a response, then use a process of elimination from the possibilities, although I do think it would not be black/white.
If the qib'la is to race to the good, as per 2/148, then the phrase in 2/143, "And indeed, it was difficult except for those whom Allah guided", could be saying that racing to the good was made something difficult before, as a means to test who would follow the messenger.
I dont think so. I think the verses are just about a change in "qiblah/focus/direction" from whatever the believers were doing/following before, e.g. from what I have read of history, Arabia was very tribal orientated, thus foregoing that in favour of a wider brotherhood, not based on tribe/blood but on piousness etc would be something difficult to change.......... amongst other beliefs/practices. This is one option that fits in my view.
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Peace,
Wakas, how about this...
2/144 tells us that those who were given the book know that the turn of the qiblah to al masjid al haram is the truth from their Lord. 2/146 goes on to say that they recognise the truth like they recognise their own sons.
2/53 tells us that Musa was given the book, yet in 10/87 Musa and his people are commanded to make their houses their qiblah.
Could this mean that the focus before was to establish the deen on a more local, personal space, and the progression or turn was to focus on a societal level i.e. AMAH?
And happy eid everyone! )
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peace,
Not quite.
I think it would be unlikely that a prophet/messenger, such as Moses, would be told to establish the deen on a local/personal space only. I think in his people's specific situation, this is what they could do, i.e. it was situational.
Also, I dont really think thats a change in qiblah, because its the same qiblah, but on a bigger scale, if I understood you correctly.
But you do bring up an interesting issue, in the sense that it is clear from AQ, Abraham established something special, and not everyone would be in a position to do such a thing. Hence perhaps the emphasis on Muhammad to follow Abraham's example, because Muhammad happened to be in a position to do so, i.e. establish something similar to Abraham. Hence the interplay between the two in AQ.
Of course, AMAH is only discussed when the believers community is reaching its peak, so yes, amah, is on a more widespread/societal level.
