Is the Quran preserved?
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The highlight is from me.
All praises and thanks be to GOD Almighty.
1st The Qur'aan has been incessantly memorized ever since the first day of its revelation. It is continuing the same at the present, and will be the same into the future. God willing. Today, there are multitude of Muslims on a global scale that have memorized the The Qur'aan in its entirety.
2nd With today's modern technology, one can find the VERBAL/ORAL recitation of The Qur'aan, on tapes, CD, DVD, radio, TV, the Internet, and..., 24/7.
Peace,
KhalilHi Khalil,
Christians get hit with this question all the time, and while what you are saying in point 1 is absolutely true, the danger with it is that it feeds into the implication that the Quran was a compilation of the early Muslim community and not a document that stands on its own merit. If the community was responsible for compiling the Quran by comparing the memorized oral versions, then it could be argued that the hadiths, also a product of the Muslim community, deserve at least some credibility.
Roman Catholics use a similar argumentation about the authority and role of tradition (i.e. the Church's authority and tradition) in the formation of the Christian scripture. The catch is that if you acknowledge the role that church tradition plays in forming the canon, then you arguably have to respect that tradition as an authority.
I'd stick to pointing out the relatively short amount of time from when the Quran was first recited to when it was written down. It is much shorter compared to any other oral tradition gap of any religious text (Buddhist Pali canon, New Testament, Old Testament, etc). I'd also point out the virtual 100% agreement in the earliest manuscripts of the Quran. The only significant variations in quotes from the Quran, I believe, are in the hadiths. Typically, texts do not begin with variations, then consolidate into a unified text. They typically begin with one unified text, and variations creep in over time. Without solid manuscript evidence showing major deviations, then you can assume that the Quran is well-preserved from the original, regardless of HOW that happened. Don't know if that reasoning makes sense or not.
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...If the community was responsible for compiling the Quran by comparing the memorized oral versions, then it could be argued that the hadiths, also a product of the Muslim community, deserve at least some credibility...
You are leaving out one unique and fundamental factor here; the original hand written manuscript of The Qur?aan by Prophet Muhammad?s, pbuh, own hands. He preserved and safeguarded this written manuscript until his death. Later, the committee responsible for compilation of the entire Qur?aan, in a written book, used this original manuscript in cross-referencing all other available sources.
...Roman Catholics use a similar argumentation about the authority and role of tradition (i.e. the Church's authority and tradition) in the formation of the Christian scripture. The catch is that if you acknowledge the role that church tradition plays in forming the canon, then you arguably have to respect that tradition as an authority...
Comparing the Hadith & Sunnah with the Bible makes sense, because both were compiled after long periods of time after the time of their origins, and by many different sources and different time periods. That is why we have so many versions of the Bible on our hands. By the same token we have so many different and conflicting versions of Hadith & Sunnah.
...The only significant variations in quotes from the Quran, I believe, are in the hadiths...
The Qru?aan is ONE UNIQUE book. There are no VERSIONS when it comes to The Qur?aan. The Qur'aan doesn't have anything to do with the Hadith.
...They typically begin with one unified text, and variations creep in over time...
You, again, have left out another important factor in preservation of The Qur?aan; its memorization, from the beginning, and continuation of its memorization through time.
Peace,
Khalil -
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Are you implying ALL of those who have memorised Quran since the beginning have memorised the same recitation? I assume you know there are variant recitations.
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And how do you know an error in memorisation did not lead to error in verbal recitation that we have today? You cant, one can only assume there wasn't.
In case my point is not clear, I am implying that no-one can be certain, whichever method you use, thus we cannot rely only on one method, as you seemingly imply.
The highlight is from me.
Up until now, I personally have not heard or run into any variation precedence regarding verbal/oral presentation of The Qur'aan. Besides, with today's information technology and the fact that such an important info will be communicated almost instantly all over the globe, one may conclude that there isn't any variations out there.
Peace,
Khalil -
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You are leaving out one unique and fundamental factor here; the original hand written manuscript of The Qur?aan by Prophet Muhammad?s, pbuh, own hands. He preserved and safeguarded this written manuscript until his death. Later, the committee responsible for compilation of the entire Qur?aan, in a written book, used this original manuscript in cross-referencing all other available sources.
To me, this makes a stronger case than the memorization argument if a person were discussing with someone looking for evidence. It is easier to believe that a source text is responsible for uniform copies over a multitude of people who are able to beat the statistical odds of memorizing all of the suras without a mistake.
Comparing the Hadith & Sunnah with the Bible makes sense, because both were compiled after long periods of time after the time of their origins, and by many different sources and different time periods. That is why we have so many versions of the Bible on our hands. By the same token we have so many different and conflicting versions of Hadith & Sunnah.
There are similarities, certainly. However, I think there are two differences. 1) There isn't as many extant manuscripts of the Jewish and Christian scriptures as some make it sound. There's somewhere around 95% (or better) agreement among the manuscripts, and many of those are spelling differences. But I'll also be the first to admit that there are some differences that are major. 2) Reading the Bible and understanding it properly in its context is not a corrupting influence on understanding the Quran. I do not think the same can be said for the hadiths.
The Qru?aan is ONE UNIQUE book. There are no VERSIONS when it comes to The Qur?aan. The Qur'aan doesn't have anything to do with the Hadith.
You, again, have left out another important factor in preservation of The Qur?aan; its memorization, from the beginning, and continuation of its memorization through time.I could be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that places in the hadiths quote from the Quran, and those quotes have some differences (but not the Quran itself). This, to me, would support the idea that the Quran was the original, and the hadiths are the corruptions of the text.
Again, I'm not saying that people did not have a chain of preservation of the Quran by memorization. I'm just saying from an evidence standpoint when talking with someone who isn't already convinced to believe in the message of the Quran, this is a more difficult argument to make. When I first began looking at the evidence of the Quran, I did not find it convincing. That's all. )
Peace,
Joel -
Peace,
This is a question from non-muslims that I would like to know how to answer. Is there a good enough reason that I can say that it is preserved?
Peace be with you,
The majority of people say the Quran was written after the time of Muhammad (pbuh).
"And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow naught but conjecture and they only lie." Surah 6116
How do you read memory?
Read (Iqra) And thy Lord is the Most Generous, who taught by the pen, taught humans what he knew not. " Surah 963-5Am I to believe paper and writing was unknown until Uthman rose in power? Seriously?
The Quran was not written 20 years after the time of Muhammad (pbuh).Allah revealed it and the Prophet (pbuh) wrote it down.
What else would need to be gathered and read (qur-anahu)? Surah 7516-19
What else would be recited (yutla) in the houses of the believers? Surah 3334"Those to whom We have given the Book and who recite (yatloonahu) it with true recitation, they believe in it; and whoso disbelieves in it, they shall be the losers." Surah 2121
Allah does not change, nor does He change His way (sunnati Allahi) Surah 624, 6115, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3030, 3362, 4815, 4823, 673-4
Revealed as revealed to other Prophets (pbut) Surah 287, 2253, 26192-194, 4163, 4171, 5110, 1602, 16102, 4143, 4252, 5822
How did Allah teach? With the pen. Surah 964
Was the Quran revealed in one fell swoop? No. The revelation was sent down in stages, not one complete Book all at once.
The revelation of verses continued over a period of time Surah 17106, 2532
"Had We sent down on thee a Book on paper (qirtasin) and so they touched it with their hands, yet the unbelievers would have said, 'This is naught but manifest sorcery.'" Surah 67
They even asked the same of Moses (pbuh), and look how they responded
"The People of the Book will ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven; and they asked Moses for greater than that, for they said, 'Show us God openly.' And the thunderbolt took them for their evildoing. Then they took to themselves the Calf, after the clear signs had come to them; yet We pardoned them that, and We bestowed upon Moses a clear authority." Surah
"They measured not Allah with His true measure when they said, 'Allah has not sent down aught on any mortal.' Say 'Who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to men? You put it into scattered papers (qarateesa), revealing them, and hiding much; and you were taught that you knew not, you and your fathers.' Say 'Allah.' Then leave them alone, playing their game of plunging." Surah 691
Prophets (pbut) before Muhammad were given writings. Moses (pbuh) did not cast down a remembrance, he cast down tablets with inscription. Surah 7150, 154
"And when Moses' anger abated in him, he took the Tablets (al-alwaha) and in the inscription of them was guidance, and mercy unto all those who hold their Lord in awe." Surah 7154
Muhammad (pbuh) Surah 8521-22
"Nay, but it is a glorious Quran (qur-anun), in a guarded tablet (lawhin)." Surah 8521-22Muhammad arranged the Quran according to Allah?s will Surah 7516-17, 16101-102, 2532
"Move not thy tongue with it to hasten it; Ours it is to gather it, and to recite it." Surah 7516-17
The Quran was written during the time of Muhammad Surah 255, 2948, 964, 681, 8011-16
"They say, 'Fairy-tales of the ancients that he has had written down, so that they are recited to him at the dawn and in the evening.'" Surah 255
"Not before this didst thou recite any Book, or inscribe it with thy right hand, for then those who follow falsehood would have doubted." Surah 2948
?No indeed; it is a Reminder, and whoso wills, shall remember it, upon pages (suhufin) high-honoured, exalted (MarfooAAatin), purified, by the hands of scribes noble, pious.? Surah 8011-16
The previous revelations are all pages (suhufan) of the Book Surah 20133, 5336, 7452, 8010-13, 8718-19, 982
?And they say Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not there come to them a clear evidence of what is in the previous pages (alssuhufi)?" Surah 20133"And everything they have done is in the scrolls (alzzuburi)." Surah 5452
Zabur - blocks/parts of scripture/writings revealed to succeeding Prophets (pbut) Surah 3184, 215, 21105-106, 4163, 1755, 1896, 26196, 5452, 3525
"Bring me ingots (zubara) of iron!' Until, when he had made all level between the two cliffs, he said, 'Blow!' Until, when he had made it a fire, he said, 'Bring me, that I may pour molten brass on it.'" Surah 1896"If they cry thee lies, those before them also cried lies; their Messengers came to them with the clear signs, the Scriptures (waalzzuburi), the Illuminating Book;" Surah 3184
As for proof of protection, we see the word-count miracles as proof of purity.
The statement "seven heavens" is stated seven (7) times.
The number of repetitions of the words "plant" and "tree" is the same 26
When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "they said."
The number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated is also the same 115
The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.
The number of times the words "Summer-hot" and "winter-cold" are repeated is the same 5.
The words "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) are repeated in the Qur'an the same number of times 6
The words "tongue" and "sermon" are both repeated 25 times.
"Reward" (ajr) and "action" (fail) are both repeated 107 times.
The number of appearances of "right guidance" (al-huda) and "mercy" (al-rahma) is the same 79
The words "trouble" and "peace" are both repeated 13 times in the Qur'an.These were discovered in 1945 when the first Index was compiled. If there were any additions or removals from the Quran in the past 1400 years, the word counts would be off.
Furthermore, the Quran contains a falsification test
"What, do they not ponder the Koran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency." Surah 482
Find a mistake and prove it does not come from Allah and is written by man. When they cannot find a mistake, they are then in a difficult position and have questions they must answer or ignore.
You can point to the Bible and show how tampering has occurred.
Additions
I John 57 - proven addition.
Acts 2830 - proven addition.
John 87-11 - proven addition.
Luke 2244 - proven addition.
Luke 2220 - proven addition.
Mark 1617-18 - proven addition.
John 54 - proven addition.
Luke 2412-51 - proven additionBooks removed from the Bible Book of Jasher, Enoch, Jubilees.
Errors
Geneology of Joseph doesn?t match. Mat. 11-16, Luke 323-38
Who is father of Joseph? Mat. 116, Luke 323
II Sam. 241 ? God David to count.
I Chron. 211 ? satan David to count.
Who is the Morning Star; Jesus or Satan? Isaiah 1412, Rev. 2216
Cretian paradox Was he telling the truth? Titus 112-13Not all is inspired by God I Cor. 725, Luke 11-3, Jer. 88, Rom. 125
"Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy." I Cor. 725
?Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever.? Rom. 125
"Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the world, I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus." Luke 11-3Fabricated Prophecies Mat. 279-10, Mat. 223, John 217
Misquoted Prophecies Mat. 214-15 misquotes Hos. 111, Mat. 122-23 misquotes Isaiah 714 (which isn't a prophecy), Mat. 217 misquotes Isaiah 53, Isaiah 216-7 and Zech. 99
Biblical 'Splatter gore' porn Judges 1924-29
Biblical Porn Eze. 23Allah does not reveal such indecencies, errors, lapses in memory, or contradictions.
Allah neither errs nor forgets. Surah 482, 2052
There are plenty of other proofs that can be brought to bear to show the purity and protection Allah provides, but if a person refuses to believe nothing will change their heart except Allah.
Peace.
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In addition, also remember the verses which talk about writing down of transactions, debts, wills, marriage contracts etc thus writing was relatively common, and if so, it seems very likely some effort would have been put into Quran's preservation by writing.
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Peace all,
Thanks raging for the post. So I guess there is no definite way of getting around the 20 year gap then. It's not that I don't believe that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't write the Qur'an himself, it's just that from the outside, it's hard to believe that the Qur'an was protected within the 20 years from the traditional standpoint. That and I remember that one of the oldest Qur'an that was found (dunno if they found any older ones) in Jerusalem had previous writings washed off. Not that that means that the Qur'an was changed, but I am just trying to find different perspectives of critics (especially atheists).
Thanks guys.
Peace
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Peace all,
Thanks raging for the post. So I guess there is no definite way of getting around the 20 year gap then.
What 20 year gap?
The Quran has been in the hands of believers since revelation.
To say there was a 20 year gap when no such gap exists upholds teachings of man, not what Allah revealed.Don't believe the Quran is protected? Then find an error.
Peace.
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Peace Bahman,
Wouldn't that mean that the Qur'an hasn't been preserved and that it was only recently that the original had been found (referring to Khalifa and the two ayat)?
Peace
Peace i came here to see if any response from you and then get lost among all those screaming following our parents and teachers blindly hence is authored simply how we find the truth in quran.
I posted all information for you and now is up to you to fins the truth.
Say if i build house today and install security alarm into it , then claim that is secured and protected, and do not need any support . then advise you many times that there are some secret and code there to test this protection. years passed and some body finds that code and then finds the problem. simple to understand impossible to imitatePeace
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Peace
What 20 year gap?
The Quran has been in the hands of believers since revelation.
To say there was a 20 year gap when no such gap exists upholds teachings of man, not what Allah revealed.Don't believe the Quran is protected? Then find an error.
Peace.
I am not saying that, that is the claim from atheists and Christians, what I am trying to work around.
Peace i came here to see if any response from you and then get lost among all those screaming following our parents and teachers blindly hence is authored simply how we find the truth in quran.
I posted all information for you and now is up to you to fins the truth.
Say if i build house today and install security alarm into it , then claim that is secured and protected, and do not need any support . then advise you many times that there are some secret and code there to test this protection. years passed and some body finds that code and then finds the problem. simple to understand impossible to imitatePeace
Is it possible in the 19 community that there are other verses that could still be possible to be inserted? I read Khalifas reasoning based on hadith for those two verses.
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Peace i came here to see if any response from you and then get lost among all those screaming following our parents and teachers blindly hence is authored simply how we find the truth in quran.
I posted all information for you and now is up to you to fins the truth.
Say if i build house today and install security alarm into it , then claim that is secured and protected, and do not need any support . then advise you many times that there are some secret and code there to test this protection. years passed and some body finds that code and then finds the problem. simple to understand impossible to imitatePeace
A good security alarm goes off as soon as the house is touched and does not allow entry.
A security alarm that allows evil to enter and reside for 1400 years is a bad security alarm.Those who uphold Code 19 ignore Allah's promise
"falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4142
Falsehood will not come to it in the past - behind it - nor in the future - before it.
You are saying for 1400 years falsehood entered it. I do not believe as you believe, as Allah keeps His word. There is no changing Allah's word. If He says it, He will do it. Surah 6115Allah protects the Quran Surah 159, 4141-42, 1339, 4224, 8521-22, 1827, 7227, 181
Allah promised to protect the Quran. He states clearly falsehood will not enter it in the past or in the future. Allah is the best Protector. Surah 840
If you say falsehood entered the Quran, you speak against Allah that which you know not. Surah 733
Peace
I am not saying that, that is the claim from atheists and Christians, what I am trying to work around.
What proof do they bring of their claims? Errors in the Quran or stories from hadith?
If they bring stories from hadith, why are they given any credence?If they believe the Quran has been tampered with, make them show an error. Numerous mistakes can be shown from the Bible so they have a guideline on what to look for.
Peace.
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A good security alarm goes off as soon as the house is touched and does not allow entry.
A security alarm that allows evil to enter and reside for 1400 years is a bad security alarm.Those who uphold Code 19 ignore Allah's promise
"falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4142
Falsehood will not come to it in the past - behind it - nor in the future - before it.
You are saying for 1400 years falsehood entered it. I do not believe as you believe, as Allah keeps His word. There is no changing Allah's word. If He says it, He will do it. Surah 6115Allah protects the Quran Surah 159, 4141-42, 1339, 4224, 8521-22, 1827, 7227, 181
Allah promised to protect the Quran. He states clearly falsehood will not enter it in the past or in the future. Allah is the best Protector. Surah 840
If you say falsehood entered the Quran, you speak against Allah that which you know not. Surah 733
What proof do they bring of their claims? Errors in the Quran or stories from hadith?
If they bring stories from hadith, why are they given any credence?If they believe the Quran has been tampered with, make them show an error. Numerous mistakes can be shown from the Bible so they have a guideline on what to look for.
Peace.
you have no idea how many hadith and saying of sahaba and aysha about corruption of Qur'an....
Damn it. -
you have no idea how many hadith and saying of sahaba and aysha about corruption of Qur'an....
Damn it.Salam,
Not in defense of Raggin-Taggin(ragingaijini whatever) though, but if I end up doing that, cant help it.
Sahabas and Ayesha's testimony regarding the corruption of Qur'an ? I dont recall hearing about any interview given by any one of them on the subject matter from any reliable source. I dont know about you, but public survey done by the biggest liars of human history is not where I get reliable testimonies from. I dont know who in their right mind will go around arabia collecting hearsay information about people's saying 2 centuries after their death where they can no longer defend themselves. And for surety , I dont know who would call a scripture corrupted based on these public survey documents.
From what I see, the people that are striving to follow their own desire instead of seeking God will even dig that out of hearsay information. Ever heard of hypocrites ? They follow the message partly and reject it partly, they follow it as long as it coincides with their desires , their following is not for submitting to Allah.
Am I attacking you ? No, nothing negative in my post applies to you unless I ended up defining your behaviors above.
May Allah always guide you and increase you in knowledge
PEACE
------------------------ Student of Allah
