Concept of Understanding the Prophetic Sunnah
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Salam,
He says the command to obey/follow the messenger is not restricted to the contents of the revelation.Even if the prophet made a mistake God would correct him but our duty would be to follow him.Since the command is open and not time bound it is applicable to us also.AND lastly since it is a quranic command ,trying to imlement it cannot be called an unquranic act.
I can see what the professor is trying to say, but I would have agreed with him as a teenager, when I did not know much about Qur'an or Hadith. For me, a messenger comes with a message and must be obeyed. For the people that were there with him, they could help him straight forward, and for the generations after the messenger, the messenger is to be obeyed by obeying the message of Allah. The whole point of obeying Muhammad is because of his messengership, not because God was in love with the way he brushed his teeth.
Saying that it is not unquranic act sounds like someone did not read the Qur'an. The sunnah establishes a complete different doctrine based on virtually complete different teachings and laws. More over, the messenger can not walk around judging people with alien rule sets and laws. No messenger was allowed to do that, all were commanded to judge using the book (not in contradiction with it or adding to the principles).
I actually believed the Islamic Shariah according to the sunna clubs before Allah opened my eyes to the following verse detailing the system
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
545 And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
549 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and many of the people are wicked.
550 Is it the judgment of the days of ignorance that they seek? Who is better than God as a judge for a people who comprehend?
I believe upon reading these verses, one can understand why those so called Sunnah systems are rejected by the Qur'an and its followers. Yes, one may choose to go in search of "Authentic sayings" then in search of "Authentic Systems according to the sayings" , but I fear Allah and believe Him when the teacher of this student, the Commander said
"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt."
I am waiting for the professor or his advocate P to come up with proof from Qur'an instead of opinions based on opinions.
By the way, I am just enjoying typing, so do not feel that I am attacking anyone ) Its just that I get emotional when people deny the reading before writing P
PEACE
-------------------- Student of Allah
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Salam and Peace everyone!
If the results of trying to "implement" it cause political and social oppression of women, and religious and ethnic minorities, as well as causing unneeded suffering by barring people from medicines that contain alcohol, for instance, then yes, it is unquranic.
Peace,
JoelVery correct, bro Joel!
Have a look at the barbaric implementation of Bukhari-Islam.
This is Hadither's Islam = Brutality, Barbarity, Hysteria, Madness---Absolute Madness!!!
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6edfRzTcQW4
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Madness---Absolute Madness!!!
Salam,
That reminds me of Leonidas talking to the Persian messenger in 300 (if you know what I mean). I am picturing the scene in my head right now.
Sorry for going offtopic
PEACE
------------------ Student of Allah
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Salam Javed,
I call the responce of the gentleman you shared with us "the hyperlink approach". They will say with their tounges that the Quran is indeed fully details and complete, but then they will refer to an imaginatory "hyperlink" within the Qur'an that takes them to the mad and satanic world of the sunna/hadith!
Thus, what he is really saying is that the Quran is not detailed because the Quran gives authority to the messenger to be followed, and that the messenger will complete the religion.
Of course, that argument is completely flawed as Obeying God and the messenger are one in the same command (480).
We are commanded to obey the messenger only in the message of the Quran that he delivered - which is an obedience to God.
As for the prophet (the man) - he has no authority on his own to be followed or obeyed beyond if what he says is in accordance with the Quran (see 6012). Also, see examples where the prophet - the man - made wrong decisions (7422, 661) or had wrong ideas (1773-75, 3353)
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Peace.
As for the prophet (the man) - he has no authority on his own to be followed or obeyed beyond if what he says is in accordance with the Quran (see 6012). Also, see examples where the prophet - the man - made wrong decisions (7422, 661) or had wrong ideas (1773-75, 3353)
You probably meant 801 instead of 7422 .
Abdelilah
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Salaam brother,
I would love to response to the Professor view inshaAllah.
There are many twists in his post, I will try to point them with the help of Allah.
No muslim worth his salt believes that the Quran is not complete or there is need for extra Quranic guidance.It only appears so to people who don?t really have a holistic view,those who don?t really understand the concept.
There is an oft repeated command in the quran to obey the messenger.
Please note that he agreed that there are oft repeated command to obey "The Messenger" i.e., "AlRasool" not only "Rasool" in AlQuraan.
You can take a look at the following link about Mohammed being a Rasool not AlRasool.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602494.msg279514#msg279514
Please do NOT rush while reading it and try to understand the point.
Is that messenger Muhammed or someone else?
Ans----It is Muhammed(pbuh).Wrong! The answer is in the above link. Please ask him to get me the prove of his claim from AlQuraan.
Is that command unequivocal or qualified?
Ans---Unequivocal without any strings attached.Look at the above link.
If Muhammad(Pbuh)had asked you(presuming you were present at that time) to get him a glass of water, would the Quranic command stand validated?
Ans---yes.Presuming? Why? We are not at that time nor he is now with us, so why presume wrong things?
Lets presume if that professor is a women and a wife of abu jahal, will she still believe in Prophet Mohammed?
Please don't take me wrong, I am just presuming.
Would there be an objection that the above statement that it is not present in the quran?
Ans---NoNo? How come? Look above please.
Now if the prophet had said that saying ?SubhanAllah?is a good way of doing tasbih ordered by God,would this statement be of importance in following the commandment of God to do Tasbih?
Ans---Yes.Hey hey, wait a minute! Where did the Prophet came in between? We were talking about the messenger, right? I know these people, they play with words always and here is a perfect example.
Anyways, I got a doubt here, whom the prophet is saying that "SubhanAllah" is a good way of doing tasbih ordered by God? If, he said to his people then they have to follow it, but it is saying to us, then it is not possible. Because as per my knowledge Allah never ask us to follow or obey the Prophet in AlQuraan.
You will not find such statement "atiu-Allaha wa atiu-nnabiyy" in AlQuraan inshaAllah. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Would the same prophetic statement be helpful one generation after the Prophet or would it be time bound?
And---it would be helpful.It is absolutely time bounded, please look at the answer to the question above this.
Great! Look at his answer, just to the next generation "it would be helpful" and NOT COMPULSORY, then how about next generation after that, then next, then next, it will surely fade out till it comes to us as per Professors philosophy. Thanks.
Would the same statement be helpful to you?Ans---It would.
Oh, sorry, I have taken his theory in a wrong way. He said "It would". It means "It would be helpful" but not a command from Allah.
He contradict himself with the his statement above when he said "There is an oft repeated command in the quran to obey the messenger".
Please decide first, "is it a command in AlQuraan" or "it would be just helpful", if it is helpful, then a movie could also be helpful in many ways.
This is what Sunnah of Messenger of God is all about(Though with a lot of imperfections and impurities,but that is a separate discussion for another day.)
MashaAllah, professor sahab you are great in twisting of words. Now he left "Messenger", "The Messenger", "The Prophet" and now came up with "Messenger of God". But he is correct, there are lot of imperfections and impurities ... is he not talking this about his post?... Oops! I am sorry.
The quest to follow the messenger arises out of a Quranic command.There is nothing extra quranic or nothing to suggest the incompleteness of the quran, in it.It is as if this command to follow the Rasool has been bracketted( ) within the quran.
Again "the messenger"? Oh Allah please help me. Please brother, ask him to stick to the topic. Allah talks about many different kind of messengers in AlQuraan, including "their messenger" i.e., "rasooluhum", so let him decide first whom is he talking about.
I know he cannot say I am talking about "Mohammed" cause, there is no command in AlQuran to follow "Mohammed" .
Can you please ask him what is meant by the following
331
331 Say If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuLWho this "Qul" or "Say" is referring to in 331. If it is referring to Prophet Mohammed, then how about the very next aayat? i.e., 332
332
332 Say Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.Who this "Qul" or "Say" is referring to in 332? As per the above aayat, if it is referring to Prophet Mohammed then whom is he asking to obey?
Why he did not said "atiu-Allaha wa ati-oon" that means "obey Allah and obey ME" as in 331 there is "ME" and as the other messengers said "atiu-Allaha wa ati-oon" in 26108, 26110, 26126, 26131, 26144, 26150, 26163, 26179, etc.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace.
You probably meant 801 instead of 7422 .
Abdelilah
salaam,
I think that there is no evidence at all that 801 and 7422 are about Mohammed, it's only conjecture.
I think it's not good to say something bad about the prophet or anyone else with no evidence.
The last persons of who i would think of that 801 and 7422, are about are the prophets. -
Peace.
I think that there is no evidence at all that 801 and 7422 are about Mohammed, it's only conjecture.
Whether 7422 talks about the messenger is not even a question. There absolutely IS evidence that it's NOT talking about the messenger; and it's called context.
You are right about 801 though. It's obvious that this sign can apply to anybody and probably is more of a general lesson. I simply corrected the reference.
Abdelilah
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One last thing I wanted to bring up. I know that this conversation/debate has come to a close. And I don't know if anyone has already brought this up (too lazy to read every post, sorry), but wouldn't the command to follow what the messenger says apply to the Qur'an? I mean, if the only message he came to give us is the Qur'an, then we can probably safely assume that God is meaning to follow everything in the Qur'an. It is possible that it wasn't only written, but also verbally given to people. Whether Muhammad (pbuh) wrote it or not doesn't matter to me as much. But everything in the Qur'an did at least come out of his mouth and was written by someone who listened to him and possibly followed him, or written by many people who saw and listened to him when he claimed to be having a divine revelation at that moment.
I hope that this isn't confusing to you anyone of you brothers and sisters. And I am not saying that this is strictly fact. But just something to think about if you haven't already done so.
May God guide us all into the truth on this subject and subjects before and after it.
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Salam and Peace!
Whether Muhammad (pbuh) wrote it or not doesn't matter to me as much. But everything in the Qur'an did at least come out of his mouth and was written by someone who listened to him and possibly followed him, or written by many people who saw and listened to him when he claimed to be having a divine revelation at that moment.
The Prophet was not illeterate.---He knew how to read and write.----Please read below
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-----"And you (O Messenger) did not read of any book ""before it (Min Qablihi)"", nor did you write it with your right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood." (294
The meaning is so clear---"you could not read or write ""Min Qablihi"---means "you could not read or write before this (Quran)"
But what after this (Quran)?----Now you can read and write.Consider the words "Min Qablihi".---If the Prophet was illiterate before and after, it would have been "you don't know how to read or write".---And in that case the words "Min Qablihi" would have been useless.
But it says"you could not read or write "before this" ("Min Qablihi".You never ate burger before this time "Min Qablihi"-----means you never ate before this time,---but now you are eating a burger.
And if you have never eaten, and still you don't eat,-----then the sentence would have been,---"you have never eaten a burger."-----"And they (rejectors) say ?Legends of the ancient people, which he (the Messenger) has written down, so they are dictated to him morning and evening.? (255)
Why did they say this?---Because they knew that the Prophet knows how to write. If he didn't know, the rejectors would never have said---"which he (the Messenger) has written down,"
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Can you just imagine,-----a Messenger receiving Allah's Revelations, conveying and explaining it to people,-----
-----yet he was unable to read a single word of The Revelation that he himself received,-----
-----and then he died without knowing, recognizing and reading even a single word of The Revelation.His Sahaba could read when they saw the words of Allah in The Exalted Quran,-----yet, the Messenger, never knew the words of The Message he received.
It means when he saw the word, "Allah" in Al-Quran, he never knew, this word is "Allah" written there.
When he would see the Surah Al-Fatiha, he never knew what is this written, although he was the recipient of Al-Quran himself!!!Can you imagine this???!!!
Can you imagine this???!!!But,-----how can you imagine this???
How pity!---Take Allah's Refuge!
But, indeed, how shameful for the people of the last Ummah, who call their Prophet illiterate!!!
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So, sad!-----The Ummah (Salafis, Sunnis) today say that the Prophet was illiterate.
Allah Commanded the Prophet
---"Read" in the name of your Lord who has created." (961)
According to Sunnis, the Prophet himself did not obey Alalh's Commandment, and did not learn to "Read". (Naoozo Billah!)
---"The One who taught by the pen." (964)
According to Sunnis, the Prophet did not obey Allah's Commandment, and never picked up a pen to learn how to write. (Naoozo Billah!)
How shameful!-----How shameful!
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One last thing I wanted to bring up. I know that this conversation/debate has come to a close. And I don't know if anyone has already brought this up (too lazy to read every post, sorry), but wouldn't the command to follow what the messenger says apply to the Qur'an? I mean, if the only message he came to give us is the Qur'an, then we can probably safely assume that God is meaning to follow everything in the Qur'an. It is possible that it wasn't only written, but also verbally given to people. Whether Muhammad (pbuh) wrote it or not doesn't matter to me as much. But everything in the Qur'an did at least come out of his mouth and was written by someone who listened to him and possibly followed him, or written by many people who saw and listened to him when he claimed to be having a divine revelation at that moment.
I hope that this isn't confusing to you anyone of you brothers and sisters. And I am not saying that this is strictly fact. But just something to think about if you haven't already done so.
No, respected bro/sis, strictly, it is The Message,---and following The Message is Obeying the Messenger.
Please read below
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Salam and Peace!
In the name of obeying the Messenger, the Ummah is straying and worshipping many mortal gods
Muhammad (SAW), Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husaain, Imam Bukhari, Imam Musilm, Ulama Karam/mortal teachers/Clergies, and their own dirty nufs.
Anyways, read below, carefully!
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Is The Messenger Consistent with Allah?
Salam and Peace!
Please consider this very important point
Allah ordered us to obey Allah and obey the Messenger.
-----"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger." (Al-Nisaa-59)
Then further Allah declares
-----"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)
It means there is no Inconsistency in "Obeying Allah" and "Obeying the Messenger".
It means what the Messenger is saying, is exactly what Allah is saying.And, indeed, it is so.
Read the Verse
-----"And he (the Messenger) does not speak of his own desire. It is not but a Revelation that is revealed." (Al-Najum-3,4)
Allah declared that His Messenger does not speak from his own desire.-----He does not issue any commandment from his own judgement.-----He only gives people The Revelation.
Why???---Because It is only Allah Who issues Hukm
-----"Surely the Hukm (Law and Judgment) is for none, but Allah." (Yousuf-40)
Allah do not make anyone His associate in His Hukm-----"He does not make anyone His associate in His Hukm (Law and Judgment)" (Al-Kahaf-26)
Means Allah does not make even His Messengers His associate in His Hukm.Was the Messenger authorised by Allah to issue any teachings besides The Quran?
Allah asserts to all believers that the Messenger was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from Allah.
-----"It is a Revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." (Al-Haqqa-43-47)And so, the Messenger is declaring in Al-Quran, that he can not make any change in Al-Quran, or he can not give any new teachings other than Al-Quran.
-----"And when Our Verses are recited to them as clear Evidence, those who hope not for their meeting with Us, say ?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or make changes in this (Quran).? Say (O Messenger) ?It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I follow not but that which is revealed unto me. Indeed, I fear, if I were to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Great Day.? (Younus15)So, it is clear like daylight, that the Messenger only speaks what was revealed to him.
Read this Verse
-----"O Prophet, why do you make unlawful that which Allah has made lawful for you. Seeking to please your wives. And Allah is All Forgiving, All Merciful." (Al-Tahreem-1)It clearly means that anything that Allah made "Lawful",-----the Messenger was not authorized to make it "un--Lawful".
And anything that Allah did not make compulsory in His Exalted Quran, the Messenger was not authorized to make it Deen (beard, etc.).
So, what Allah allows, the Messenger allows.
And what Allah forbids, the Messenger forbids.That is why, one who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah.
-----"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)So, the only reason that "Obeying the Messenger" is the same as "Obeying Allah", is that the Messenger conveys The Message only.
Please read the diagram below, horizontally, and then vertically.
Obeying Allah = Obeying the Messenger
| |
| |
/ /
The Message = The Message that he brought.
that He sent.
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
The MessageSo, it is very much clear that the Messenger taught The Message only. That is why "Obeying Allah" and "Obeying the Messenger" are one thing and consistent.
And this consistency is Islam.
Remember, there is no inconsistency in Isalm. (Sects differ with each other. Open Shirk).But the man-made books of ahadith show that the Messenger spoke other than Al-Quran.
These books show that Allah made His Messenger His associate in His Hukm---and the Messenger issued new commandments, side by side Allah, from his own understanding. (e.g. Stoning the zani to death, killing the apostate, killing the blasphemer, beard, etc.)-----
----whereas, these commandments are not found in Al-Quran.
(It clearly means,----very very clearly means that the Messenger was not only a Messenger of The Message,----he was also an initiator of new commandments from his own understanding.-----New commandments, which are not to be found in Allah's Safe, Holy, Exalted and Supreme Quran.)Then how can "Obeying Allah " and "Obeying the Messenger" can be one thing???
Then how can "Obeying Allah " and "Obeying the Messenger" can be Consistent???Ironically
According to Bukhari-followers, "Obeying Allah " and "Obeying the Messenger" are two different things.
And ironically, they claim from their own mouth that "Obeying Allah" is Al-Quran, and "Obeying the Messenger" is the ahadith.And more ironically,---(if "Obeying the Messenger" is the ahadith)-----then if someone follows ahadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari, it means he has Obeyed the Messenger,---and if he has Obeyed the Messenger,---then he has Obeyed Allah.
Where has Al-Quran gone???
The ummah has got rid of Allah and His Quran, finally!
Imam Bukhari is enough for them!---(Take rufuge in Allah!)-----"And when Allah, the One is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with disgust. And when those (whom they worship) besides Him are mentioned, behold, they rejoice." (Al-Zamur-45)
People rejoice when Imam Bukhari is mentioned.-----They are happy!!!
-----"But, man will be a witness against himself. Even if he offers his excuses." (Al-Qiyamah-14,15)
They are witness against themselves of what they hold up to.
And very strange!-----They confess it with their own mouth.Don't say people don't understand.-----People understand everything, at least, when Allah's Revealed Truth is put before them.
Yet, even after understanding Allah's Verses well, they find it difficult to accept The Truth, The Only Truth in the universe.---Why?Just close your eyes, and peep into your heart. You will find the criminal there.
-----The "Ego".-----Kick him out!==============================================================
May Allah guide all of us to The Right Path that would take us to Allah.
-----"Indeed, This (Quran) is a Reminder. So whoever wills, let him take the way to his Lord" (Al-Dahr-29)
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Everything you just said, is pretty much the point I was trying to get at.
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And I wasn't saying that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't know how to read and/or write. I was simply stating that I didn't know, nor did I particularly care too much. No disrespect to Muhammad or anyone else was intended.
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realitykid
Salam and Peace on you!
I didn't say anything about your intention.------
Just went into the topic, a bit deeper.
Peace again!
A lot of Peace!
