Polygyny - a new understanding from Quran?

WhereIsTheTruth

KDC501 you have not answered my question so I will repeat can you tell me where the quran states that a woman cannot have more then one husband ? Quran is perfectly detailed right? So it shold be clear about whether a woman can marry one or more. If women have multiple husbands its not necessary for the sexual lust of women. A woman can marry multiple widow men and in that way protect and give motherhood to their children. This can be even more significant in societies where there are more men then women.. Depriving children from a mother is opression

KDC501

Dear Sister,

I already answered your question.

43 If you fear that you cannot be just to fatherless orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from the women, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair then only one, or whom you already have contract with. So that you do not commit injustice and suffer hardship.

4127 They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it.

The above verses are addressed only for MEN.

Ask yourself this question sister Are 'men' mothers??? No men who have children are called fathers not mothers.

Second question Can a woman marry another woman or a man another man.
Answer Absolutely not

Hence, logical interpretation shows that men alone are meant to enter into polygamist relationships from the above verses since marriage is between a woman and a man ONLY The verse shows that clearly, so why are arguing when God law is made plain and easy to understand. I know that some women have a problem with this law (which is quite understandable since i would have a problem with it myself) but it is not for any of us to argue with what God has permitted. You and I are not lawgivers. God is.

Peace,

Kevin.

WhereIsTheTruth

KDC501 dear brother you missed the point. Again you are providing me with verses about how men can do polygyny. I am asking you about what quran says about how many husbands a woman can have. Can you tell me from the quran how many husbands a woman can have ? Well otherwise it can be argued that tue limit of four wives are For men but quran does not put any limit for women so she can have 10 husbands if she wants. If god wanted a woman to marry only one husband then he would say that in the quran right ? I know that a man does not like to share his wife but polyandry can in some cases be very practical just like polygyny. Hence polyandry (a woman having more husbands) have been practised throughout history. So who told you that a marriage is between a man and a woman only ? That's a relative new western idea. But history tell us that the difination of marriage is different from culture to culture and time to time. And all knowing god should be aware of that and since quran is for entire humanity it shall clearly states whether women for instance in tibet can continue to marry multiple husbands as this practise have existed in their culture for centuries. So Can you give me quranic verses who says that a woman can marry only one?? ?

Wakas

As a side note, Quran does not allow a husband to marry more than one wife without the permission of the first wife etc.

See www.Quran434.com for discussion on various aspects.

Phil

KDC501 dear brother you missed the point. Again you are providing me with verses about how men can do polygyny. I am asking you about what quran says about how many husbands a woman can have. Can you tell me from the quran how many husbands a woman can have ? Well otherwise it can be argued that tue limit of four wives are For men but quran does not put any limit for women so she can have 10 husbands if she wants. If god wanted a woman to marry only one husband then he would say that in the quran right ? I know that a man does not like to share his wife but polyandry can in some cases be very practical just like polygyny. Hence polyandry (a woman having more husbands) have been practised throughout history. So who told you that a marriage is between a man and a woman only ? That's a relative new western idea. But history tell us that the difination of marriage is different from culture to culture and time to time. And all knowing god should be aware of that and since quran is for entire humanity it shall clearly states whether women for instance in tibet can continue to marry multiple husbands as this practise have existed in their culture for centuries. So Can you give me quranic verses who says that a woman can marry only one?? ?

Dear WITT,

If one to read Q2221 and try to see the context of the verse as rightfully understood as related to marriage, perhaps one can also understand that the prohibition to marry polytheistic women/polytheistic men from the triliteral root shn r kf, is simply a prohibition to marry those who already have partner, i.e married and not as traditionally understood as someone who setup partner with god.

Hence, the verse, i.e Q2221 addresses the issue of polygyny as well as polyandry.

Regards,

WhereIsTheTruth

phil Hello respected brother phil. I have been looking on the verse you mentioned and I agree with you that it can be understood in that way that a person whether its a man or woman shall not marry a person with a partner even if that person 'just' has a girlfriend. We should marry a single person. Hence polygyny and polyandry can be prohibited. But in that case verse 43 does not talk about polygyny just as the muslim boy argues in his blog. It's just simply talking about being just with orphans even if you marry them off to someone.

unknownuser

Peace,

To raise a point. Any contention you have with a clear law in al-quran is based on fear. I understand women will have an issue with polygamy what with the whole women's rights movement and the general status of women in society.

However your dislike of any quranic commandment is intrinsically based on a subconscious fear that the rejectors of truth could be correct or lack of knowledge. There is no need to fear the correct application of ALLAH's command, what bad could possibly come from following the instructions of he who designed us all and knows us better than ourselves?

Look inside yourselves and find the source of your discontent. Assuredly it is a hole in your knowledge. You trust your computer's manufacturer to give you correct instructions on how to use it. Then wherefrom comes your distrust of he who is ultimately just?

Hence, logical interpretation shows that men alone are meant to enter into polygamist relationships from the above verses since marriage is between a woman and a man ONLY The verse shows that clearly, so why are arguing when God law is made plain and easy to understand. I know that some women have a problem with this law (which is quite understandable since i would have a problem with it myself) but it is not for any of us to argue with what God has permitted. You and I are not lawgivers. God is.

WhereIsTheTruth

And the logic being............ ?

That you shall be just with orphans even when you marry them of. You can not marry one orphan off to a handsome rich young guy and marry another orphan off to a old man or you can not be stingy with one orphan regarding marriage expenses while showing generosity to another orphan regarding marriage expenses etc. But if you fear that you discriminate between them then marry just one orphan off or the domestic people in your area since the quran in other places encourages single people to
Marry. So marry other people off who cannot afford to marry is kindness and charity.

dawngorgeous

Peace All,
In response to Where is the Truth, I take her point. No, the Koran does not tell women they cannot marry more than one husband. There are verses in the Koran, however, that imply that under normal circumstances both men and women may marry only one person. The verse that directs us, for example, not to commit adultery.
Dawn.

WhereIsTheTruth

Peace All,
In response to Where is the Truth, I take her point. No, the Koran does not tell women they cannot marry more than one husband. There are verses in the Koran, however, that imply that under normal circumstances both men and women may marry only one person. The verse that directs us, for example, not to commit adultery.
Dawn.

Brother ask you will realize in this forum people have very different perceptions about what adultry means. BTW where does quran says that a person under normal circumstances marry only one ?

S29

Peace,

That you shall be just with orphans even when you marry them of. You can not marry one orphan off to a handsome rich young guy and marry another orphan off to a old man or you can not be stingy with one orphan regarding marriage expenses while showing generosity to another orphan regarding marriage expenses etc. But if you fear that you discriminate between them then marry just one orphan off or the domestic people in your area since the quran in other places encourages single people to
Marry. So marry other people off who cannot afford to marry is kindness and charity.

I thought my prior post was clear on this, perhaps to clarify further

so marry what choice to you from the females NOT marry them off
which males have authority to marry them off since they are orphans and fatherless?
verse says to marry mothers of orphans (children both males and females)
once orphans reach maturity they may marry whom they wish, their choice
a woman cannot marry two men at same time, a man can marry women exception sisters

422 and not marry whom married your fathers from the females only what has passed indeed it was immorality and abomination and an evil way

423 forbidden on you your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your father?s sisters and your mother?s sisters and daughters the brothers and daughters the sisters and mothers the ones who nursed you and your sisters from the nursing and mothers your women and your step daughters the ones who in your guardianship from your women the ones who entered in them so if not you had entered in them so not sin on you and wives your sons the ones who from your loins and that you gathered between the two sisters only what has passed indeed Allah is Forgiving Merciful

WhereIsTheTruth

Peace,

I thought my prior post was clear on this, perhaps to clarify further

so marry what choice to you from the females NOT marry them off
which males have authority to marry them off since they are orphans and fatherless?
verse says to marry mothers of orphans (children both males and females)
once orphans reach maturity they may marry whom they wish, their choice
a woman cannot marry two men at same time, a man can marry women exception sistes

422 and not marry whom married your fathers from the females only lmm what has lpassed indeed it was l ll anld abomination m and an evil way lmm
lll
423 llmmv forbidden on you your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your father?s sisters and your mother?s sisters and daughters the brothers and daughters the sisters and mothers the ones who nursed you and your sisters from the nursing and mothers your women and your step daughters the ones who in your guardianship from your; women the ones who entered in them so if not you had entered in them so not sin on you and wives your sons the ones who from your loins and that you gathered between the two sisters only what has passed indeed Allah is Forgiving Merciful

Why cant a woman marry two men in samw time? Is it your personal,opinion or can you show me that from quran ? And why cant the society marry the mothers of the orphans off?

S29

Why cant a woman marry two men in samw time? Is it your personal,opinion or can you show me that from quran ? And why cant the society marry the mothers of the orphans off?

Consider all verses on divorce and inheritance becomes a hairball woman married multiple to husbands.

2230 so if he divorces her so not lawful to him from after until she marries a spouse other than him so if he divorces her so not sin on them that they return back if they think that they keep limits Allah and these limits Allah He makes clear for people who know

412 and for you half what left your spouses if not is for them child so if is for them child so for you the fourth from what they left ...

Also consider who is the father of the child?
Also consider distributions to all husbands?

Marriage is a personal choice not that of any society or government to marrying people off.

Peace

Emil

Guys....Salaam

I come from a broken family. Well, not me but my parents. I have seen the anguish in my father's face when speaking about his childhood and it is only God that kept him on the right path, he could have as easily ended up on the wrong side, if you know what I mean.

When I read the Quran the first time the verse about being allowed to marry more than one woman made absolutely crystal clear sense to me, right from the beginning.

Allah doesn't care about you (in this case). He sees children growing up without a family, unprotected. All he wants you and me to do is to not let that happen.
Allah doesnt care if you are having problems keeping up with multiple wives, he doesnt care if you are jealous. As long as his children are happy and well fed and raised in a good home, he is happy.
He knows that when a man marries a woman he is obliged to take care of her. Their children, blood related or not, will therefore be protected and cared for as well, and that is all he wants, his children to be safe.

Now, modern society has all kinds of systems to take care of the single moms and orphans so I don't really see the point in for example, a saudi man having four wives......BUT, if those systems fail we (men) are obliged to take care of the orphans and their mothers, and the only bond that will make us keep our obligation is marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have not seen any other kind of obligation in the Quran towards a woman that would automatically protect her offspring as well.

Feminist or not, that is the hard truth. If all backup systems and dried powder milk would disappear, then babies do not survive without their mothers. A mother cannot work and take care of her baby on the same time, at least she will struggle very hard to raise her children in a happy and safe environment. Therefore she needs help and she needs the help to be founded on an obligation. When does an obligation in Allahs name command you to take care of another human? Marriage.

I am sorry for not explaining, it makes sense in my head though..........Protect the children, even if it means you have to marry the mothers. You do not seek a second, third or fourth wife, it is not your choice, you got nothing to do with it. You are just a vessel for God to keep his children safe. You will marry if a mother needs help and when you do, you have in the eyes of Allah made an obligation to protect and serve. You are bound by his law.

WhereIsTheTruth

Guys....Salaam

I come from a broken family. Well, not me but my parents. I have seen the anguish in my father's face when speaking about his childhood and it is only God that kept him on the right path, he could have as easily ended up on the wrong side, if you know what I mean.

When I read the Quran the first time the verse about being allowed to marry more than one woman made absolutely crystal clear sense to me, right from the beginning.

Allah doesn't care about you (in this case). He sees children growing up without a family, unprotected. All he wants you and me to do is to not let that happen.
Allah doesnt care if you are having problems keeping up with multiple wives, he doesnt care if you are jealous. As long as his children are happy and well fed and raised in a good home, he is happy.
He knows that when a man marries a woman he is obliged to take care of her. Their children, blood related or not, will therefore be protected and cared for as well, and that is all he wants, his children to be safe.

Now, modern society has all kinds of systems to take care of the single moms and orphans so I don't really see the point in for example, a saudi man having four wives......BUT, if those systems fail we (men) are obliged to take care of the orphans and their mothers, and the only bond that will make us keep our obligation is marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have not seen any other kind of obligation in the Quran towards a woman that would automatically protect her offspring as well.

Feminist or not, that is the hard truth. If all backup systems and dried powder milk would disappear, then babies do not survive without their mothers. A mother cannot work and take care of her baby on the same time, at least she will struggle very hard to raise her children in a happy and safe environment. Therefore she needs help and she needs the help to be founded on an obligation. When does an obligation in Allahs name command you to take care of another human? Marriage.

I am sorry for not explaining, it makes sense in my head though..........Protect the children, even if it means you have to marry the mothers. You do not seek a second, third or fourth wife, it is not your choice, you got nothing to do with it. You are just a vessel for God to keep his children safe. You will marry if a mother needs help and when you do, you have in the eyes of Allah made an obligation to protect and serve. You are bound by his law.

Emil you are right. Of course we have to care about the children. Thats why Quran allows a woman to marry upto four husbands as well, in order to give motherless children a mother. Everyone who lost his mother knows how important a mother is for the family. Without a mother the whole family would be seen unprotected and broken. The truth is that children needs a mother! So in cases where there are lack of women in the society it makes perfectly sense that a woman have multiple widov husbands in order to give a sense of motherhood to their children. Depriving children from a mother is opression.

So yes when children dont have a father they are unprotected and thus a man should marry four women, and when children dont have a mother they are also unprotected and go through serious mental problems so hence its preferable that a woman marry four husbands in order to take care of the children.

And I know that most husbands dont like to share their wives and you would not like to share your wife with three other men, but Allah does not care about you (in this case) all he cares about is the children who is being deprived of motherhood and thats why marry more than one husband makes absolutely crystal clear sense to me, right from the beginning.

peace

KDC501

Guys....Salaam

I come from a broken family. Well, not me but my parents. I have seen the anguish in my father's face when speaking about his childhood and it is only God that kept him on the right path, he could have as easily ended up on the wrong side, if you know what I mean.

When I read the Quran the first time the verse about being allowed to marry more than one woman made absolutely crystal clear sense to me, right from the beginning.

Allah doesn't care about you (in this case). He sees children growing up without a family, unprotected. All he wants you and me to do is to not let that happen.
Allah doesnt care if you are having problems keeping up with multiple wives, he doesnt care if you are jealous. As long as his children are happy and well fed and raised in a good home, he is happy.
He knows that when a man marries a woman he is obliged to take care of her. Their children, blood related or not, will therefore be protected and cared for as well, and that is all he wants, his children to be safe.

Now, modern society has all kinds of systems to take care of the single moms and orphans so I don't really see the point in for example, a saudi man having four wives......BUT, if those systems fail we (men) are obliged to take care of the orphans and their mothers, and the only bond that will make us keep our obligation is marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have not seen any other kind of obligation in the Quran towards a woman that would automatically protect her offspring as well.

Feminist or not, that is the hard truth. If all backup systems and dried powder milk would disappear, then babies do not survive without their mothers. A mother cannot work and take care of her baby on the same time, at least she will struggle very hard to raise her children in a happy and safe environment. Therefore she needs help and she needs the help to be founded on an obligation. When does an obligation in Allahs name command you to take care of another human? Marriage.

I am sorry for not explaining, it makes sense in my head though..........Protect the children, even if it means you have to marry the mothers. You do not seek a second, third or fourth wife, it is not your choice, you got nothing to do with it. You are just a vessel for God to keep his children safe. You will marry if a mother needs help and when you do, you have in the eyes of Allah made an obligation to protect and serve. You are bound by his law.

Very harsh words. With a slight hint of male chauvinism. (eg." You are just a vessel for God to keep his children safe.&quot

This itself is not the only purpose of women. Remember that women are equal to men. The only difference is that women and men have different TASKS. For example think of two people taking an exam but with different answers but with the same score. We are different and we do have different tasks but all in all we are both equal.

Now the issue of polygamy i don't believe that today it is as necessary as it was 'back then'. You have to remember that 'back then' was the "Wild West period" The world didn't give a damn about women's rights. And a lot of men didn't have respect for women either. So you can imagine the type of life women had to live. No respect, and no means to live by one's self . Independent women was not a practice that was possible 'back then'. However today is another issue. Women (with children ) don't need men to provide for them. Women can do that themselves. The World is different now. There is rarely if ever the need for polygamist marriages today (except if you are a believer who lives in the "Islamic world/Hell " where women are stripped of there rights. And are unable to become independent )

Peace,

Kevin.

Emil

Very harsh words. With a slight hint of male chauvinism. (eg." You are just a vessel for God to keep his children safe.&quot

This itself is not the only purpose of women. Remember that women are equal to men. The only difference is that women and men have different TASKS. For example think of two people taking an exam but with different answers but with the same score. We are different and we do have different tasks but all in all we are both equal.

Salaam Kevin

Sorry for not being clear, we (men)
are just a vessel for God to keep his children safe
. I agree with you about the rest. Hmmm, maybe not about the equality thing. I think of myself as the servant of my family. I am here to provide for and protect them, I am not the master. My wife is my master, I am nothing compared to her. I am a schmuck and a hopeless romantic.

For the rest, I am in total agreement with you. In today's world (in my world at least) I cannot see any reason for polygamy. And just like you said, back then was a totally different story. But Allah's word is for all time, we don't know if how our future will look like, He does. All I know is that if the you know what hits the fan, my obligation is to take care of the kids, even if it means I have to have more than one wife. I don't know about you but I do not see polygamy as something positive, on the contrary actually. But I understand Allah's wish to keep the children safe

Emil

Emil you are right. Of course we have to care about the children. Thats why Quran allows a woman to marry upto four husbands as well, in order to give motherless children a mother. Everyone who lost his mother knows how important a mother is for the family. Without a mother the whole family would be seen unprotected and broken. The truth is that children needs a mother! So in cases where there are lack of women in the society it makes perfectly sense that a woman have multiple widov husbands in order to give a sense of motherhood to their children. Depriving children from a mother is opression.

So yes when children dont have a father they are unprotected and thus a man should marry four women, and when children dont have a mother they are also unprotected and go through serious mental problems so hence its preferable that a woman marry four husbands in order to take care of the children.

And I know that most husbands dont like to share their wives and you would not like to share your wife with three other men, but Allah does not care about you (in this case) all he cares about is the children who is being deprived of motherhood and thats why marry more than one husband makes absolutely crystal clear sense to me, right from the beginning.

peace

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

You missed my point of babies not able to survive without their mothers. If you think primitive, think caveman, then maybe you get it. It kind of hurts to say it but it does make sense, the cave feels a lot safer when my dad is around. If my dad is not around but another dude it kinda feels safe too. But I cannot trust the dude, maybe he will run away chasing a mammuth or something and leave me here unprotected, what if my mother went away as well? I wish there was a way that I could trust him to stick around, how can I make him feel obliged to protect me? What "bond" has Allah shown me? In what way can I make him protect me, eventhough both my parents go away?

I am not talking about today's world, of course not. We (humans) have evolved and enforced the whole of society to protect the orphans, but what makes you think that tomorrow will lead to evolvement going forward? In his wisdom Allah knows that times are different. What he has given us are guidelines for the core essentials, for the absolute bottom, for the absolute beginning. You think that when the Quran was sent down it were the words for here and after. No, of course not. It is for here, after and before.

And as for a woman marrying four men, why not? I trust you when you say there is nothing in the Quran, I have not thought about looking. I only have my opinion and that is it would probably not work. Men are like five million more times jealous than women, we do not have the braincells to understand the concept of sharing a woman. We are beneath you in so many ways. We are one step outside the cave, one foot still inside.
But if I may point out that (correct me if I'm wrong) the verses in the Quran regarding the subject are directed towards the man, right? It is not my fault that men (the majority it seems) see those verses as justification to have as many wives as possible. I see something totally different. . It didn't (when reading the Quran the first time) even cross my mind that I actually had to marry more than one woman, all I saw was Allah saying, nay telling, to do my outmost to protect the kids.

Someone

So nice to see that you are very concerned about prostitution. Of course we can not accept women being prostitutes even if they like it. But you see, the problem is just that there are some poor men in this world as well. How can we then stop these men from becoming prostitutes also? Isn't it then better that these men become the second or third or fourth husbands of a rich lady ? After all, its certainly better for a man to become the fourth husband of a rich lady then to become a male prostitute or some gay. And as you mentioned the important thing is that its between consenting adults, so if a rich lady can afford to protect some men financially in stead of letting them become public propterty and if she can handle it, then she should go for multiple husbands bravo

Salam

Peace sister,

I am sorry if my post seemed rude, I didn't mean it that way. Some points to clarify my position

I am not saying that for women it is either polygamy or prostitution, meaning that if they don't accept polygamy then they will go prostitution... I gave it just as an example, and I admit it was harsh. Surely the majority of women are hardworkers (more than men) and more honest as per my experience.
We can't say that polygamy was only acceptable in the old days, because even now in the 21st century, we find many communities still living in the middle ages... or even in the forests. So such instructions in the quran are still needed in these days and can still be applied.
I am living in a third world country, and I see everyday how women are treated by the society. They are as servants to their male masters, except the women that have chosen to be liberated or had a chance of being educated. But for most in the rural areas, women are counted along with the cattles. This is the crude reality.
In some poor villages, some families are pushing their daughters into prostitution to earn some money, with the agreement of their fathers, mothers and brothers... It is really a sad situation, and surely it wil not change anytime soon.

That is why I told in my previous post that life is not easy for some women, and that being protected in a polygamious mariage is (relatively) better for them than prostitution. And about 43, in whatever way we may understand this verse, there should be some orphans involved to allow polygamy, it is certainly not for men's pleasure.

As for polyandry, the god knows best. But for me it does not seem so godly, even if for some men it doesn't cause a problem, to the contrary it gives them (apparently) some satisfaction... whatever

I hope this clarifies my previous post.

WhereIsTheTruth

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

You missed my point of babies not able to survive without their mothers. If you think primitive, think caveman, then maybe you get it. It kind of hurts to say it but it does make sense, the cave feels a lot safer when my dad is around. If my dad is not around but another dude it kinda feels safe too. But I cannot trust the dude, maybe he will run away chasing a mammuth or something and leave me here unprotected, what if my mother went away as well? I wish there was a way that I could trust him to stick around, how can I make him feel obliged to protect me? What "bond" has Allah shown me? In what way can I make him protect me, eventhough both my parents go away?

I am not talking about today's world, of course not. We (humans) have evolved and enforced the whole of society to protect the orphans, but what makes you think that tomorrow will lead to evolvement going forward? In his wisdom Allah knows that times are different. What he has given us are guidelines for the core essentials, for the absolute bottom, for the absolute beginning. You think that when the Quran was sent down it were the words for here and after. No, of course not. It is for here, after and before.

And as for a woman marrying four men, why not? I trust you when you say there is nothing in the Quran, I have not thought about looking. I only have my opinion and that is it would probably not work. Men are like five million more times jealous than women, we do not have the braincells to understand the concept of sharing a woman. We are beneath you in so many ways. We are one step outside the cave, one foot still inside.
But if I may point out that (correct me if I'm wrong) the verses in the Quran regarding the subject are directed towards the man, right? It is not my fault that men (the majority it seems) see those verses as justification to have as many wives as possible. I see something totally different. . It didn't (when reading the Quran the first time) even cross my mind that I actually had to marry more than one woman, all I saw was Allah saying, nay telling, to do my outmost to protect the kids.

Hello emil. I think you are right that men are more jalous than women. I mean, would you for instance like to share your wife with three other men? And how would you feel that she is the mother of your children as well as the mother of three other mens children, hence she would divide her time between you all justly. You would properly feel jalous and bad. But didn't you in uour previous post emphasized that god does not care about you but only cares about the children? So whats the problem with sharing your wife with widov men if that means that some children would get a mother ? Well regarding quran than there is no verse who Says that a woman can marry only one. So there are no quranic reason for prohibiting polyandry.