Intercession?
-
So my mother in law is upset to figure out I don't follow hadith, she said like most I don't love the Prophet enough and that because of this he will not intercede on judgement. She said since she know I only follow Quran to explain the the following verses. I am still new and having trouble, explaining these verses. Can anyone share some of their knowledge to help point me in a good direction so I may do some more research?
Thanks guys.
20109 On that day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by Allah, Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to him.
2128
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession Expect for those who are acceptable3423
"No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission.She states this is where Muhammad is given the permission.
I explained this is not in correct context.. ugh, I am so frustrated! I can't explain it.. She tried to make me feel like I am astray... but the Hadith make me sick to my stomach, I actually feel ill in my heart. However, when I read Qu'ran I find solace in peace and the things that made me feel ill just fade. "maybe Allah just wants you to be astray".. How can this be?? When I am sincerely searching for Him and Him alone. Thanks guys for making me feel apart of something, that I am not insane. I will say my husband is become more in more to listening to my reasoning on things and is agrees with me. We had a great talk this morning. I have him perplexed with 4719 and 482, for now, atlease he is thinking and open. Thanks again guys!
group
Kaiokenred is correct, the Quran says that there is only one intercessor which is Allah only " Surah 3944 the Quran tells us that it is only Allah who is the intercessor; Say, "All intercession belongs to God." To Him belongs all sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you will be returned. (Translated by Khalifa) However the Quran also says the angels will be intercessors not just for Muslims but also beings on the earth. "However in Surah 425 it is the angels who do intercession for all who are in the earth. ?The heavens are almost rent asunder from above them (by Him Glory) and the angels celebrate the Praises of their Lord, and pray for forgiveness for (all) beings on earth Behold! Verily Allah is He, the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful". (Translated by Yusuf Ali)
And according to the Tirmidhi the Kaaba Stone will suddenly aquire a mouth and eyes. "It was narrated that Ibn ?Abbas said The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said concerning the Stone "By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity."So what we have here is the Quran saysing that there will be no other intercessor except Allah, but at the same time the Quran tells us that the angels will pray for the forgiveness of beings on the earth. On top of that the Tirmidhi (a Hadith) says that the Kaaba Stone wil testify in favor of those who touched the stone with the right heart.
My questions are these"Is there only going to be one intercessor or three at the end of days. Are both scriptures in the Quran correct or is one of them wrong? Is the Hadith quoted above true or is it a falsehood? -
That hadith is definitely a fake. That's a rock who made many people shirk, even by touching it.
-
Hadiths are most fake so idc. I don't believe in that bs.
-
Salam and Peace!
At the moment,----let us consider one very popular hadith.-----The whole of the ummah (99.99%) have Iman in it.
This fabricated hadith is about Shafa'ut (Intercession) from the Prophet on The Judgement Day, for the "sinners, shirk-doers and liars" of his ummah.
See, how this "witchcraft hadith" goes against Allah's Exalted Quran.
Allah declares in His Exalted Quran that the Prophet has been given the Revelation to warn the people
-----"(Revelation) sent down by the All Mighty, the Merciful. That you (O Messenger) may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, so they are heedless." (Yaseen-5,6)
So, it is clear like daylight that the Prophet was given The Message to warn people.
But the "witchcraft hadith" in Sahih Al-Bukhari narrates.-----What?-----Read
"Some (cooked) meat was brought to Allah's Messenger (S) and the meat of a forearm was presented to him as he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said---"I will be the cheif of the people on The Judgement Day. Do you know the reason for it?---Allah will gather all the human being of early generations as well as late generations on one plain so that the announcer will be able to make them all hear his voice and the watcher will be able to see all of them. The sun will come so close to the people that they will suffer such distress and trouble as they will not be able to bear or stand. Then the people will say, "Don't you see to what state you have reached? Won't you look for someone who can intercede for you with your Lord?"---Some people will say to some others, "Go to Adam." So they will go to Adam and say to him,"You are the father of mankind, Allah created you with His Own Hand, and breathed into you of His Spirit, and ordered the angels to prostrate before you. So please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are? Don't you see what condition we have reached?" Adam will say, "Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become before, not will ever become thereafter. He farbade me (to eat of the fruit of) the tree, but I disobeyed Him. Myself! Myself! Myself! (has more need for Shafa'ut)."
So, this Enticing Lie and Seductive Deception goes on, until people came to Moses, and Moses sent them to Jesus. Read further
"So people will go to Jusus and say, "O Jesus! You are Allah's Apostle and His Word which He sent to Mariam, and a superior soul created by Him, and you talked to the people while still young in the cradle. Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?" Jesus will say, "Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become before, not will ever become thereafter." Jesus will not mention any sin, but will say, "Myself! Myself! Myself! (has more need for Shafa'ut). Go to someone else; go to Muhammad." So they will come to me and say, "O Muhammad! You are Allah's Apostle and last of the prophets, and Allah forgave your early and late sins. Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?" The Prophet added, "Then I will go beneath Allah's Throne and fall in prostration before my Lord. And then Allah will guide me to such praises and glorification to Him, as He has never guided anybody else before me. Then it will be said, "O Muhammad! Raise your head. Ask, and it will be granted. Intercede It (your intercession) will be accepted." So I will raise my head and say, "My followers, O my Lord! My followers, O my Lord!" It will be said." It will be said "O Muhammad! Let those of your followers who have no accounts, enter through such a gate of the gates of Paradise as lies on the right; and they will share the the other gates with the people."
(Sahih Bukhari---Narrated by Abu Hurairaa)(People will believe in this hadith because this hadith has been narrated by Abu Hurairaa. And the name "Abu Hurairaa" has been taken as the name of an exalted Sahabi. Now how can people reject this alleged hadith which has been narrated by Abu Hurairaa who is a Sahabi???)
Don't worry, there is more to come. Read
"On The Judgement Day, the people will fall on their knees and every ummah will follow their prophet and they will say, "O so-and-so! Intercede (for us with Allah)", till the right of Shafa'ut is given to the Prophet Muhammad (S) and that will be the day when Allah will raise him (Muhammad) into a station of praise and glory (i.e. Al-Maqam-al-Mahmood)."
(Sahih Bukhari---Narrated by Ibn Umar)(How can people reject this fabricated hadith which has been narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar, because he is supposed to be a Sahabi of the Prophet.)
The above hadith about Shafa'ut can not be proved on Al-Quran. There is no such type of Shafa'ut in Al-Quran.
If someone puts his Iman in this fabricated hadith, he becomes fearless of Allah's Hold. He is urged to do sins.This sorcery hadith comforts the liars, sinners and criminals, and urges them to do whatever they like, and guarantees that the Prophet will be there for those liars to save them from Allah's Wrath.
This "witchcraft hadith" takes them to sin.Just think, sister,-----Today, no one of this ummah is ready to follow Allah's Quran, so how will they go to Paradise?
Very easy and comfortable solution!---According to this hadith no one will go to hell.---Happy?
So,----Do whatever you like,-----never read Al-Quran,-----have Iman against It,-----go against Its Teachings,-----seek honor in this world through attaining more power and wealth,-----treat your wife cruelly, talk to her harshly, beat her, always oppose her in every matter of life, and take her as your commodity and have Iman that she has been lowered in rank than you and also have Iman that most of them will go to hell-------
Okay!---Do whatever you like, but only make a false claim, that you love the Prophet intensely (Ishq-e-Rasool).
And this "fraud love" for the Prophet will win Shafa'ut for you on The Judgement Day, and you will be saved, and enter the Paradise, strutting.So, this is the sorcery hadith about Shafa'ut in Sahih Al-Bukhari, which has made the sinners fearless of Allah and careless about their bad end.
The liars who love this worldly life, seek honor for themselves and their children, they run away from Allah's Quran, and they demand-----?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or make changes in this (Quran).? (Younus-15) ---according to their dirty desire. They want good tidings in their "quran (i.e. Al-Bukhari)" that "the criminals will enter Paradise by dint of Shafa'ut."
Allah declares in His Quran (Al-Mezaan) that those who turn away from Al-Quran, for them there will be no Shafa'ut.
But-----Imam Bukhari's Sahih Al-Bukhari declares that the Prophet will do Shafa'ut for his ummah and save them from hellfire.So, the ummah, after deserting Allah's Quran,------have finally found another quran (Sahih Al-Bukhari, etc.) for themselves in which they can find whatever favorite they like.-----?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or make changes in this (Quran).? (Younus-15) ---Do you see, how befitting this Verse is!---They have replaced Al-Quran with man-made qurans, in which things are narrated by Sahaba, who have been given the names, Abu Hurairaa, Abdullah Ibn Umar, Abdullah Ibn Abbaas, Abdullah Ibn Masood, etc.
Do you know what Man wants?------He lies, but wants people to call him truthful.----He deceives, but wants people to call him honest.----He is devilish, but wants people to call him wali of Allah------Man has always been after loopholes.---But he finds no loopholes in Al-Quran. That is the reason he runs away from Allah's Revelation (Al-Quran).-----And is always after another book in the name of explanation of Deen, where he could find whatever he wants. In fact, he wants another quran.
Allah's Quran is The Only Truth in the universe. So Allah's Quran is giving us this Truth about such people that they need another quran.-----?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or make changes in this (Quran).? (Younus-15) ---And the Messenger is complaining before Allah against the liars of his own ummah
-----"And the Messenger (on The Judgement Day ) will say, "O my Lord! My ummah had deserted this Quran." (Al-Furqan-30)
According to Al-Quran, which is The Only Book of Truth in the universe, the honor-seekers never like Allah's Revelation. In the past, present and future, their Deen has always been different from Allah's Deen.
It is the honor-seeker, who is a liar, shirk-doer, biddat-doer, and who turns away from Al-Quran,---and he claims to love the Prophet very much, but reject The Quran that he brought-----the way mushrikeen of Makkah loved Muhammad (SAW) very much, but rejected the Quran that he brought.
Now, do you see sister,---that the hadith of Shafa'ut and Allah's Quran,---diametrically go against each other.
Allah commands His Messenger to warn the people, so that they would fear and stop from sins.
But,----the hadith says, that the Messenger is encouraging people that he will do Shafa'ut for them and save them from hellfire.======================================================
Now tell, who narrated this hadith of Shafa'ut?---Abu Hurairaa and Abdullah Ibn Umar.
The "Zalim and unjust Ulama Karam" has made people believe that these names are the names of the rightly guided Sahaba of the Prophet who will never lie.
And anyone who will doubt whatever they said, is out of Islam, murtad, kafir,---and will go to hellfire.So, I would again insist, very humbly, that grab the evil form its roots,-----call people to discuss
Are these names (not found in Al-Quran, but found in the books of history) to be accepted as the names of the Sahaba and family members of the Prophet???
Did Allah Will us to know these names???If not,---then the story ends here.
There is no importance of the fabricated narrantions (ahadith) linked with these names,----since these names---(Ayesha, Umar, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Abu Huraira, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Abbaas)---are not authenticated names of the Sahaba and the family members of the Prophet.Peace again!
-
I could be wrong but it looks like you are defending the 99% of the Hadith but you are calling this one about the Kaaba stone witchcraft. What if ALL of the hadith were written against the will of Allah and his prophet.
(1) Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry reported that the messenger of God had said,
?Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it.?
The following historical incident happened about 30 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammed and shows that the Prophet never canceled his order not to write but the Quran. The hadiths books however contained some fabricated hadiths that are considered by the same Hadiths scholars as very weak, trying to indicate that Muhammed changed his view about writing the hadiths. The readers of the hadith to follow, that happened about 30 years after the death of the Prophet, will conclude by themselves that the Prophet Muhammed never authorized the writing of the hadiths since the time he told his followers not to write but the Quran..
(2) From Ibn Hanbal;
Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet?s closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu?aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet?s death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu?aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. ? the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith,?
(3) The famous book, ?Ulum Al-Hadith? by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; ?What are you writing?? We said, ?Hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God.? He said, ?A book other than the book of God ?!? We said, ?Should we talk about you?? He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of Hadiths and burned them in fire.
(4) In the famous book, ?Taq-yeed Al-Ilm?, Abu Hurayra said, the messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, ?What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.
(5) Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad book, narrates a hadith in which Abdullah Ibn Omar said, ?the messenger of God one day came out to us as if he was going to depart us soon and said, ?When I depart you (die), hold to the book of God, prohibit what it prohibits and accept as halal what it makes halal.?
He never mentioned the Sunna in this hadiths.
(6) Again, in the book ?Taq-yeed Al-Ilm?, Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, ? I asked the messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission.?
-
Intercession/petition on behalf of another is permissible to certain individuals/appointees although it will not avail the criminals; here are pertinent verses ...
670 and leave the ones who take their practice/religion a play and amusement and deludes them the life the world and remind with it lest is given to destruction a soul in what it earned is not to it from besides The God protector and not intercessor and if offers ransom every payment not will be accepted from it those the ones who given to destruction in what they earned to them a drink from scalding and punishment painful in what they have disbelieved
103 indeed your Lord The God The One Who created the skies and the earth in six days furthermore He raised on The Throne He regulates the directive what from intercessor only/except from after He permits those The God your Lord so serve Him do they not remember/take heed
1987 not they will have power the intercession only/except from has taken with The Powerful a covenant
20108 that day they will follow the caller/supplicant (one praying humbly for something) not crooked (dishonest) from him and humbled the voices to The Powerful so not you will hear only/except whisper
20109 that day not will benefit the intercession only/except from authorized to him The Powerful and accepted from him a saying2128 Knows what between thier hands and what behind them and not intercedes only/except surely of He approves and they from revere of Him reveres
324 The God The One Who created the skies and the earth and what between them in six days furthermore He Raised on The Throne what to you from besides Him from protector and not intercessor do they not remember/take heed
3423 and not will benefit the intercession with Him only/except surely of authorized to him until when panic about/on their hearts they said what had said your Lord they said the truth and He The Exalted The Great
3944 say to God the intercession all to Him dominion the skies and the earth furthermore to Him you will return
4018 and warn them day the approaching when the hearts with the throats choked what to the wrongdoers from scalding and not intercessor obeyed
4019 Knows stealthy the eyes and what conceal the breasts4386 and not have power the ones who they invite from besides Him the intercession only/except from affirm in truth and they who know
Likewise no surrogate or substitutionary atonement for another's crimes...
821 when the sky cleft asunder
822 and when the stars scatter
823 and when the seas gush
824 and when the graves overturn
825 will know a soul what it set forth and left behind
826 O you the human what has decieved you in your Lord The Noble
827 The One Who created you so fashioned you so balanced you
828 in whatever image what He wills He assembled you
829 each nay you deny in the judgement
8210 and indeed on you surely guardians
8211 noble writers
8212 who know what you do
8213 indeed the righteous surely in bliss
8214 and indeed the wicked surely in hellfire
8215 they will burn in it day the last
8216 and what/not they from it in absence
8217 and what will make you know what day the last
8218 furthermore what will make you know what day the last
8219 day not possess a soul for a soul whatsoever and the directive that day to God -
Greetings and Peace, all group
604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."
@Noon dhe plume I believe that you are correct. I'm not sure if intercession from other than ALLAH helps anyone though; it won't help the "bad" folks--and what need of it will the "good" folks have? Further, given 604, it appears to be wrong to ask for intercession for a "bad" person.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Likewise no surrogate or substitutionary atonement for another's crimes...
-
Can you explain what 821-19 has to do with substitutionary atonement? I don't see the relevance.
-
In light of your claim above, can you please explain 267-73?
-
Similarly can you please explain 595?
-
God repeatedly says he will "kafara" the sins of His people; see for instance, 3195, 297, 512 and others. How do you understand this "covering over", and why is it necessary to "cover over" sins at all?
Thanks.
-
-
-
Can you explain what 821-19 has to do with substitutionary atonement? I don't see the relevance.
-
In light of your claim above, can you please explain 267-73?
-
Similarly can you please explain 595?
-
God repeatedly says he will "kafara" the sins of His people; see for instance, 3195, 297, 512 and others. How do you understand this "covering over", and why is it necessary to "cover over" sins at all?
Thanks.
8219 day not possess a soul for a soul whatsoever and the directive that day to God
297 and the ones believe and do the righteous works surely We will remove from them their evil deeds and We will surely reward them best for that they have done/their works
No substitutionary atonement e.g. in Christianity death used as substitute to attone for souls/sins of others is different from slaughtering a cow/killing thier idol or game prohibited which people are responsible and accountable only for their own souls.
You are welcome.
-
-
Thanks for the reply.
8219 day not possess a soul for a soul whatsoever and the directive that day to God
-
However, the passage does not say what you're saying, and you have not explained what that has to do with intercession, since the word does not appear in the verse. The entire context is regarding the day of judgment, not intercession in anyway. Allow me to provide my own translation "On that day no soul will have any power for another soul and the command that day is God's" All this verse is saying is that on the day of judgment all authority will manifestly be God's, since He already has all authority, it will simply become obvious to non believers. Why would substitutionary atonement be inconsistent with this?
-
Even granting your interpretation of this verse, it still does not have anything to do with the substitutionary atonement which is presented in the bible. At best it may apply to the worship of saints by Roman and Byzantine catholics. Christ's atoning work was done about 2000 years ago on this earth, it is not something which will be done on the day of judgment.
297 and the ones believe and do the righteous works surely We will remove from them their evil deeds and We will surely reward them best for that they have done/their works
-
I have Wehr and Lane's in front of me, and I don't see "to remove" as a suitable translation for kafara. Quite the opposite in fact, something that is covered over, or concealed is still there, but veiled; whereas "to remove" something means it is no longer there, and thus it is not being "covered over" at all.
-
My question stands, however, because according to your theology no substitutionary atonement exists, therefore why does God say He will "cover over" the sins of His people? According to you, He does not need to do this, so why is it in the Quran? Surely you can see the difference between forgiveness and covering over/concealing? They are totally different acts.
No substitutionary atonement e.g. in Christianity death used as substitute to attone for souls/sins of others is different from slaughtering a cow/killing thier idol or game prohibited which people are responsible and accountable only for their own souls.
-
You haven't explained how and why the vicarious atonement of an animal offering, for sin, is in anyway different from Christ's atoning work on the cross? You have simply asserted it. On the other hand, you have conceded, I think, that vicarious atonement was part of the Mosaic and Quranic revelations. Therefore, you have no principle objection against the substitutionary atonement described in the bible.
-
Who has ever claimed that people are not responsible for their own souls? They have broken God's laws therefore they need an atonement. When I kill game during Hajj, I can atone/expiate for this sin by bringing an animal offering to the kaba; after I have done this I know that I am right with God, and now I have peace. For God has declared that if I do this, He will cover over my sin and I can then rest assured that He will keep His word and not count this sn against me.
Perhaps you have not yet been exposed to what the biblical doctrine of atonement is; hopefully you can see that it is not at all what you are arguing against.
-
-
- However, the passage does not say what you're saying, and you have not explained what that has to do with intercession, since the word does not appear in the verse.
Where did I write it has to do anything with intercession?
The reason for including it in the post was to differentiate.Why would substitutionary atonement be inconsistent with this?
Substitutionary atonement in Christianity dying as substitute to atone for sins of others.
Although you know what it means.
- I have Wehr and Lane's in front of me, and I don't see "to remove" as a suitable translation for kafara. Quite the opposite in fact, something that is covered over, or concealed is still there, but veiled; whereas "to remove" something means it is no longer there, and thus it is not being "covered over" at all.
You have Wehr and Lane's; I use Qur'an and context; you believe after God conceals a sin that it's still there lingering underneath the covers (perhaps in a black-hole or someplace exotic ) or is it erased and removed forever a thing forgotten?
- My question stands, however, because according to your theology no substitutionary atonement exists, therefore why does God say He will "cover over" the sins of His people? According to you, He does not need to do this, so why is it in the Quran? Surely you can see the difference between forgiveness and covering over/concealing? They are totally different acts.
No, context is your friend and forgiveness is exactly the same as removing/concealing.
- You haven't explained how and why the vicarious atonement of an animal offering, for sin, is in anyway different from Christ's atoning work on the cross?
It needs no explaining ? post verses authorizing Christ or any person to atone for sins?
- Who has ever claimed that people are not responsible for their own souls? They have broken God's laws therefore they need an atonement. When I kill game during Hajj, I can atone/expiate for this sin by bringing an animal offering to the kaba; after I have done this I know that I am right with God, and now I have peace. For God has declared that if I do this, He will cover over my sin and I can then rest assured that He will keep His word and not count this sn against me.
Perhaps you have not yet been exposed to what the biblical doctrine of atonement is; hopefully you can see that it is not at all what you are arguing against.
That is your belief; person was god incarnate prayed to himself and killed to atone for sins.
I follow Qur?an.
Peace
-
Where did I write it has to do anything with intercession? The reason for including it in the post was to differentiate.
You were asked, initially, what 8219 had to do with "substitutionary atonement", you simply reasserted your claim, without providing any explanation. Since substitutionary atonement is a form of intercession, I assumed you would understand my follow up. So I will ask again Please explain how you deduced from 8219, and its context, anything about substitutionary atonement?
Substitutionary atonement in Christianity dying as substitute to atone for sins of others. Although you know what it means.
Since this "answer" is nonsensical, I will repeat my question How is 8219 inconsistent with substitutionary atonement?
You have Wehr and Lane's; I use Qur'an and context; you believe after God conceals a sin that it's still there lingering underneath the covers (perhaps in a black-hole or someplace exotic ) or is it erased and removed forever a thing forgotten?
-
You have "Quran and context" what does that mean? I didn't know the Quran provided definitions of words. Can you tell me where I can find the meaning of the word "fi" in the Quran?
-
It's not what I believe, it's what the Quran says He "covers over" sins, you obviously don't believe what the Quran says, so you had to mistanslate it as "remove".
-
Did I say anything about "black holes or exotic places"? Why do you resort to sarcastic caricatures? Perhaps it is because you cannot deal with what the Quran teaches.
No, context is your friend and forgiveness is exactly the same as removing/concealing.
So why did you feel the need to translate kafara as "remove", why not leave it as "cover over/conceal", if they are truly synonyms?? Obviously you realized the meaning of the word and its implications in this context, and decided to change that meaning, since it did not fit in with your preconceived theology.
It needs no explaining...
That is truly an astonishing statement! You dogmatically assert something, and when asked to explain your teaching in light of what the Quran says, you respond by saying "It needs no explaining". I'm sorry but when your doctrine is clearly contradicted by other verses, you definitely need to explain it! A failure to do so, is to admit that you are teaching falsehood and cannot defend it.
? post verses authorizing Christ or any person to atone for sins?
By good and necessary consequence The Quran confirms that God revealed the Bible, since the Bible (and the Quran) teaches vicarious/substitutionary atonement, then I believe it. On the other hand, if you reject the Bible (and the Quran too for that matter) then can you please provide exegesis of the following texts 541-49 and 566? There are, of course, numerous other passages I could mention, but this should suffice.
That is your belief; person was god incarnate prayed to himself and killed to atone for sins.
Please cite where I said, or implied, any of the words highlighted in red, if not then please publicly repudiate your lies. Ironically, you fail to even accurately represent what Christians believe, in your attempt to slander me.
I follow Qur?an.
Really?? Here's what the Quran says, 582 Surely and truly you will find, among men, strongest in enmity to those who believe The Jews, and those who associate with God compeers; and surely and truly you will find, among men, nearest in love to those who believe Those who say "we are Christians"......Did you notice the contrast between Christians and "alltheena ashrakoo"?? Yet you are claiming the opposite, I will let others be the judge.
Futhermore, even if we disregard 582, as I am sure you do. You are commanded the following at 6108 "Do not insult those whom they are calling on, apart from God, so that they insult God out of ignorance...." Did you catch that? Maybe you should try learning the Quran before going around trying to teach others!
Peace
So you misrepresent and caricature my beliefs twice in one post, while attmepting to slander me with lies, all the while refusing to deal with the arguments which have been presented to you, peace indeed!
-
-
You were asked, initially, what 8219 had to do with "substitutionary atonement", you simply reasserted your claim, without providing any explanation. Since substitutionary atonement is a form of intercession,
No, gave you differentiation intercession/petition on behalf of another is permissible.
A person being crucified to atone for other people's sins is not.- You have "Quran and context" what does that mean?
It means use context and cross reference to extrapolate the best meaning.
Qur'an is the foundation of Arabic and is over 1,200 years older than Lane's.- It's not what I believe, it's what the Quran says He "covers over" sins, you obviously don't believe what the Quran says, so you had to mistanslate it as "remove".
No, it fits perfectly in context as remove, gone forever!
- Did I say anything about "black holes or exotic places"?
No, I did.
Why do you resort to sarcastic caricatures?
Why do you ask comical questions?
Perhaps it is because you cannot deal with what the Quran teaches.
No.
By good and necessary consequence The Quran confirms that God revealed the Bible
.Which Bible according to who? http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Please cite where I said, or implied, any of the words highlighted in red, if not then please publicly repudiate your lies. Ironically, you fail to even accurately represent what Christians believe, in your attempt to slander me.
No problem, you simply deny
- Christ was "god in the flesh"
- Christ was crusified for sins
If you do then consider my statement withdrawn.
Really?? Here's what the Quran says, 582 Surely and truly you will find, among men, strongest in enmity to those who believe The Jews, and those who associate with God compeers; and surely and truly you will find, among men, nearest in love to those who believe Those who say "we are Christians"......Did you notice the contrast between Christians and "alltheena ashrakoo"?? Yet you are claiming the opposite, I will let others be the judge.
Do you associate partners or not?
Futhermore, even if we disregard 582, as I am sure you do. You are commanded the following at 6108 "Do not insult those whom they are calling on, apart from God, so that they insult God out of ignorance...." Did you catch that? Maybe you should try learning the Quran before going around trying to teach others!
Now you admit associating partners?
6108 and not revile the ones who they invite from besides The God so they insult The God
I don't recall being abusively insulting.
So you misrepresent and caricature my beliefs twice in one post, while attmepting to slander me with lies, all the while refusing to deal with the arguments which have been presented to you, peace indeed!
You made no agruments only pointless comments/questions and ignorant assertions therefore...
2855 and when they hear the nonsense they turn away from it and they say to us our deeds and for you your deeds peace on you not we seek the ignorant
-
Quote from Hoppean on October 04, 2011, 044719 PM
- I have Wehr and Lane's in front of me, and I don't see "to remove" as a suitable translation for kafara. Quite the opposite in fact, something that is covered over, or concealed is still there, but veiled; whereas "to remove" something means it is no longer there, and thus it is not being "covered over" at all.
You have Wehr and Lane's; I use Qur'an and context; you believe after God conceals a sin that it's still there lingering underneath the covers (perhaps in a black-hole or someplace exotic ) or is it erased and removed forever a thing forgotten?
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.70a.gif
-
Allah says only those that he allows can intercess, but then He says He won't allow anyone.
I think this is regarding the disbelievers. No one can save them from their punishment. However tawassul is praticed many times in the Koran by the Israelites who asked Moses repeatedly to pray to God for them. Some Muslims carried that to the dead also by asking tawassul from the dead to pray for them. So the difference here is between alive and dead.
-
SHAFA'AT for the Last Ummah from the Rasool....!!!
Read from Verse 53 of chapter 7.........this Verse talks about the Kuffaar who rejected Allah's Message that the Rasool brought for them, and for whom amusement and play was their religion, they used to ridicule Islam........these are the people who would look for any Shafa'at for themselves on Al Qiyamah. -----"Are they waiting except for its fulfillment. On the day when comes the fulfillment thereof, those who were forgetful thereof before will say ?Indeed, the messengers of our Lord did come with the truth. So are there any intercessors for us, so they might intercede for us. Or could we be sent back, so that we might do (good) deeds other than those (evil) deeds which we used to do.? Indeed, they have lost their own selves, and has gone away from them that which they used to fabricate." (7 53) Read the Quran completely.........you will never find a Verse where momineen are looking for Shafa'at......it is the Kuffaar who fabricate a concept of Shafa'at and believe in it........and of course rely on it, and thus indulge in Shirk, Kufr and Sins. So.......according to the above quoted Verse........only the kuffaar, mushrikeen and sinners believe and rely on Shafa'at........and these are ones who will look for a Rasool or someone to do Shafa'at for them. Al Quran is so Clear on this matter............and on all matters.