Intercession?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."
@Noon dhe plume I believe that you are correct. I'm not sure if intercession from other than ALLAH helps anyone though; it won't help the "bad" folks--and what need of it will the "good" folks have? Further, given 604, it appears to be wrong to ask for intercession for a "bad" person.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Likewise no surrogate or substitutionary atonement for another's crimes...
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Can you explain what 821-19 has to do with substitutionary atonement? I don't see the relevance.
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In light of your claim above, can you please explain 267-73?
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Similarly can you please explain 595?
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God repeatedly says he will "kafara" the sins of His people; see for instance, 3195, 297, 512 and others. How do you understand this "covering over", and why is it necessary to "cover over" sins at all?
Thanks.
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Can you explain what 821-19 has to do with substitutionary atonement? I don't see the relevance.
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In light of your claim above, can you please explain 267-73?
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Similarly can you please explain 595?
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God repeatedly says he will "kafara" the sins of His people; see for instance, 3195, 297, 512 and others. How do you understand this "covering over", and why is it necessary to "cover over" sins at all?
Thanks.
8219 day not possess a soul for a soul whatsoever and the directive that day to God
297 and the ones believe and do the righteous works surely We will remove from them their evil deeds and We will surely reward them best for that they have done/their works
No substitutionary atonement e.g. in Christianity death used as substitute to attone for souls/sins of others is different from slaughtering a cow/killing thier idol or game prohibited which people are responsible and accountable only for their own souls.
You are welcome.
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Thanks for the reply.
8219 day not possess a soul for a soul whatsoever and the directive that day to God
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However, the passage does not say what you're saying, and you have not explained what that has to do with intercession, since the word does not appear in the verse. The entire context is regarding the day of judgment, not intercession in anyway. Allow me to provide my own translation "On that day no soul will have any power for another soul and the command that day is God's" All this verse is saying is that on the day of judgment all authority will manifestly be God's, since He already has all authority, it will simply become obvious to non believers. Why would substitutionary atonement be inconsistent with this?
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Even granting your interpretation of this verse, it still does not have anything to do with the substitutionary atonement which is presented in the bible. At best it may apply to the worship of saints by Roman and Byzantine catholics. Christ's atoning work was done about 2000 years ago on this earth, it is not something which will be done on the day of judgment.
297 and the ones believe and do the righteous works surely We will remove from them their evil deeds and We will surely reward them best for that they have done/their works
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I have Wehr and Lane's in front of me, and I don't see "to remove" as a suitable translation for kafara. Quite the opposite in fact, something that is covered over, or concealed is still there, but veiled; whereas "to remove" something means it is no longer there, and thus it is not being "covered over" at all.
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My question stands, however, because according to your theology no substitutionary atonement exists, therefore why does God say He will "cover over" the sins of His people? According to you, He does not need to do this, so why is it in the Quran? Surely you can see the difference between forgiveness and covering over/concealing? They are totally different acts.
No substitutionary atonement e.g. in Christianity death used as substitute to attone for souls/sins of others is different from slaughtering a cow/killing thier idol or game prohibited which people are responsible and accountable only for their own souls.
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You haven't explained how and why the vicarious atonement of an animal offering, for sin, is in anyway different from Christ's atoning work on the cross? You have simply asserted it. On the other hand, you have conceded, I think, that vicarious atonement was part of the Mosaic and Quranic revelations. Therefore, you have no principle objection against the substitutionary atonement described in the bible.
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Who has ever claimed that people are not responsible for their own souls? They have broken God's laws therefore they need an atonement. When I kill game during Hajj, I can atone/expiate for this sin by bringing an animal offering to the kaba; after I have done this I know that I am right with God, and now I have peace. For God has declared that if I do this, He will cover over my sin and I can then rest assured that He will keep His word and not count this sn against me.
Perhaps you have not yet been exposed to what the biblical doctrine of atonement is; hopefully you can see that it is not at all what you are arguing against.
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- However, the passage does not say what you're saying, and you have not explained what that has to do with intercession, since the word does not appear in the verse.
Where did I write it has to do anything with intercession?
The reason for including it in the post was to differentiate.Why would substitutionary atonement be inconsistent with this?
Substitutionary atonement in Christianity dying as substitute to atone for sins of others.
Although you know what it means.
- I have Wehr and Lane's in front of me, and I don't see "to remove" as a suitable translation for kafara. Quite the opposite in fact, something that is covered over, or concealed is still there, but veiled; whereas "to remove" something means it is no longer there, and thus it is not being "covered over" at all.
You have Wehr and Lane's; I use Qur'an and context; you believe after God conceals a sin that it's still there lingering underneath the covers (perhaps in a black-hole or someplace exotic ) or is it erased and removed forever a thing forgotten?
- My question stands, however, because according to your theology no substitutionary atonement exists, therefore why does God say He will "cover over" the sins of His people? According to you, He does not need to do this, so why is it in the Quran? Surely you can see the difference between forgiveness and covering over/concealing? They are totally different acts.
No, context is your friend and forgiveness is exactly the same as removing/concealing.
- You haven't explained how and why the vicarious atonement of an animal offering, for sin, is in anyway different from Christ's atoning work on the cross?
It needs no explaining ? post verses authorizing Christ or any person to atone for sins?
- Who has ever claimed that people are not responsible for their own souls? They have broken God's laws therefore they need an atonement. When I kill game during Hajj, I can atone/expiate for this sin by bringing an animal offering to the kaba; after I have done this I know that I am right with God, and now I have peace. For God has declared that if I do this, He will cover over my sin and I can then rest assured that He will keep His word and not count this sn against me.
Perhaps you have not yet been exposed to what the biblical doctrine of atonement is; hopefully you can see that it is not at all what you are arguing against.
That is your belief; person was god incarnate prayed to himself and killed to atone for sins.
I follow Qur?an.
Peace
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Where did I write it has to do anything with intercession? The reason for including it in the post was to differentiate.
You were asked, initially, what 8219 had to do with "substitutionary atonement", you simply reasserted your claim, without providing any explanation. Since substitutionary atonement is a form of intercession, I assumed you would understand my follow up. So I will ask again Please explain how you deduced from 8219, and its context, anything about substitutionary atonement?
Substitutionary atonement in Christianity dying as substitute to atone for sins of others. Although you know what it means.
Since this "answer" is nonsensical, I will repeat my question How is 8219 inconsistent with substitutionary atonement?
You have Wehr and Lane's; I use Qur'an and context; you believe after God conceals a sin that it's still there lingering underneath the covers (perhaps in a black-hole or someplace exotic ) or is it erased and removed forever a thing forgotten?
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You have "Quran and context" what does that mean? I didn't know the Quran provided definitions of words. Can you tell me where I can find the meaning of the word "fi" in the Quran?
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It's not what I believe, it's what the Quran says He "covers over" sins, you obviously don't believe what the Quran says, so you had to mistanslate it as "remove".
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Did I say anything about "black holes or exotic places"? Why do you resort to sarcastic caricatures? Perhaps it is because you cannot deal with what the Quran teaches.
No, context is your friend and forgiveness is exactly the same as removing/concealing.
So why did you feel the need to translate kafara as "remove", why not leave it as "cover over/conceal", if they are truly synonyms?? Obviously you realized the meaning of the word and its implications in this context, and decided to change that meaning, since it did not fit in with your preconceived theology.
It needs no explaining...
That is truly an astonishing statement! You dogmatically assert something, and when asked to explain your teaching in light of what the Quran says, you respond by saying "It needs no explaining". I'm sorry but when your doctrine is clearly contradicted by other verses, you definitely need to explain it! A failure to do so, is to admit that you are teaching falsehood and cannot defend it.
? post verses authorizing Christ or any person to atone for sins?
By good and necessary consequence The Quran confirms that God revealed the Bible, since the Bible (and the Quran) teaches vicarious/substitutionary atonement, then I believe it. On the other hand, if you reject the Bible (and the Quran too for that matter) then can you please provide exegesis of the following texts 541-49 and 566? There are, of course, numerous other passages I could mention, but this should suffice.
That is your belief; person was god incarnate prayed to himself and killed to atone for sins.
Please cite where I said, or implied, any of the words highlighted in red, if not then please publicly repudiate your lies. Ironically, you fail to even accurately represent what Christians believe, in your attempt to slander me.
I follow Qur?an.
Really?? Here's what the Quran says, 582 Surely and truly you will find, among men, strongest in enmity to those who believe The Jews, and those who associate with God compeers; and surely and truly you will find, among men, nearest in love to those who believe Those who say "we are Christians"......Did you notice the contrast between Christians and "alltheena ashrakoo"?? Yet you are claiming the opposite, I will let others be the judge.
Futhermore, even if we disregard 582, as I am sure you do. You are commanded the following at 6108 "Do not insult those whom they are calling on, apart from God, so that they insult God out of ignorance...." Did you catch that? Maybe you should try learning the Quran before going around trying to teach others!
Peace
So you misrepresent and caricature my beliefs twice in one post, while attmepting to slander me with lies, all the while refusing to deal with the arguments which have been presented to you, peace indeed!
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You were asked, initially, what 8219 had to do with "substitutionary atonement", you simply reasserted your claim, without providing any explanation. Since substitutionary atonement is a form of intercession,
No, gave you differentiation intercession/petition on behalf of another is permissible.
A person being crucified to atone for other people's sins is not.- You have "Quran and context" what does that mean?
It means use context and cross reference to extrapolate the best meaning.
Qur'an is the foundation of Arabic and is over 1,200 years older than Lane's.- It's not what I believe, it's what the Quran says He "covers over" sins, you obviously don't believe what the Quran says, so you had to mistanslate it as "remove".
No, it fits perfectly in context as remove, gone forever!
- Did I say anything about "black holes or exotic places"?
No, I did.
Why do you resort to sarcastic caricatures?
Why do you ask comical questions?
Perhaps it is because you cannot deal with what the Quran teaches.
No.
By good and necessary consequence The Quran confirms that God revealed the Bible
.Which Bible according to who? http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Please cite where I said, or implied, any of the words highlighted in red, if not then please publicly repudiate your lies. Ironically, you fail to even accurately represent what Christians believe, in your attempt to slander me.
No problem, you simply deny
- Christ was "god in the flesh"
- Christ was crusified for sins
If you do then consider my statement withdrawn.
Really?? Here's what the Quran says, 582 Surely and truly you will find, among men, strongest in enmity to those who believe The Jews, and those who associate with God compeers; and surely and truly you will find, among men, nearest in love to those who believe Those who say "we are Christians"......Did you notice the contrast between Christians and "alltheena ashrakoo"?? Yet you are claiming the opposite, I will let others be the judge.
Do you associate partners or not?
Futhermore, even if we disregard 582, as I am sure you do. You are commanded the following at 6108 "Do not insult those whom they are calling on, apart from God, so that they insult God out of ignorance...." Did you catch that? Maybe you should try learning the Quran before going around trying to teach others!
Now you admit associating partners?
6108 and not revile the ones who they invite from besides The God so they insult The God
I don't recall being abusively insulting.
So you misrepresent and caricature my beliefs twice in one post, while attmepting to slander me with lies, all the while refusing to deal with the arguments which have been presented to you, peace indeed!
You made no agruments only pointless comments/questions and ignorant assertions therefore...
2855 and when they hear the nonsense they turn away from it and they say to us our deeds and for you your deeds peace on you not we seek the ignorant
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Quote from Hoppean on October 04, 2011, 044719 PM
- I have Wehr and Lane's in front of me, and I don't see "to remove" as a suitable translation for kafara. Quite the opposite in fact, something that is covered over, or concealed is still there, but veiled; whereas "to remove" something means it is no longer there, and thus it is not being "covered over" at all.
You have Wehr and Lane's; I use Qur'an and context; you believe after God conceals a sin that it's still there lingering underneath the covers (perhaps in a black-hole or someplace exotic ) or is it erased and removed forever a thing forgotten?
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.70a.gif
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Allah says only those that he allows can intercess, but then He says He won't allow anyone.
I think this is regarding the disbelievers. No one can save them from their punishment. However tawassul is praticed many times in the Koran by the Israelites who asked Moses repeatedly to pray to God for them. Some Muslims carried that to the dead also by asking tawassul from the dead to pray for them. So the difference here is between alive and dead.
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SHAFA'AT for the Last Ummah from the Rasool....!!!
Read from Verse 53 of chapter 7.........this Verse talks about the Kuffaar who rejected Allah's Message that the Rasool brought for them, and for whom amusement and play was their religion, they used to ridicule Islam........these are the people who would look for any Shafa'at for themselves on Al Qiyamah. -----"Are they waiting except for its fulfillment. On the day when comes the fulfillment thereof, those who were forgetful thereof before will say ?Indeed, the messengers of our Lord did come with the truth. So are there any intercessors for us, so they might intercede for us. Or could we be sent back, so that we might do (good) deeds other than those (evil) deeds which we used to do.? Indeed, they have lost their own selves, and has gone away from them that which they used to fabricate." (7 53) Read the Quran completely.........you will never find a Verse where momineen are looking for Shafa'at......it is the Kuffaar who fabricate a concept of Shafa'at and believe in it........and of course rely on it, and thus indulge in Shirk, Kufr and Sins. So.......according to the above quoted Verse........only the kuffaar, mushrikeen and sinners believe and rely on Shafa'at........and these are ones who will look for a Rasool or someone to do Shafa'at for them. Al Quran is so Clear on this matter............and on all matters.