Chapter 2 (verses 51-100)
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Salaams waqas,
you should say your not sure or you don't know if its used anywhere in the quran or something like that,I think you can't say its not used anywhere in the quran -i think this is adviced somewhere in the quran ,you may know where as i cant remember off hand.Just to help you a little in you search,i came accross
in a anumber of places in the quran
2246,2258,323 etc.
Didst thou not turn thy vision............(Or didst thou not see......)
ALAM TA-RAI sugest you look how it accurs in the ayat,and it accurs in this fasion in loads of ayats.The letter R is by itself standing as vision/see to my knowledge.
Please i am not convincing anybody i am just putting it here for information purposes.
Salaams.
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Peace,
Salaams layth,
believe me there arn't any monkies and swine in the quranThe Khanzer in 560
means Proud /evil/greedy/stuborn/obstinate /stupidly perverse -according to the Quranic Dictionary.
Try these in the verse please .Thanks.
I must entirely disagree with you on this.
That you would reject "clear" meanings simply because of the argument that it does not conform with scientific knwoledge is totally unnaceptable.
As you are aware, science is a a constant learning process where new concepts and ideas are learned and new possibilities explored (read on the theories in physics regarding space tarvel and worm-hole possibilities)
Rather than denying the Quran to conform to TODAY'S science. I would rather deny today's science to conform to the Quran.
P.S. when looking at physical impossibilities, you forgot the people who slept over 300 years (hybernation) or the man who was preserved for 100 years while all what was around him decomposed...There are many more examples where we still are not even scratching the surface.
Therefore, if God says people became pigs and monkeys, then I say "absolutely".
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Salaams layth,
how ever repugnant it may seem ,this is something taught to us.And there is no way ,to me anyway -that there are monkies and swine in the quran they are there because ,not because allah has put them there BUT ,the translator has put them there ,and 100 years of that person sleeping is again there because of the translator and not because -to me anyway,Allah has broken all his laws so we may hear about something extraordinary.Allah doesn't work like this is what i can see in my life..
Here is an interesting translation if you havn't allready seen it ,might be right as i am only using lanes or the quranic dictionary and not an 11th century monk or the Arabs of that time for the translations - I think.
But by all means correct me , if you reckon i am wrong ,but please note ,i believe it that you and me Will no daught be answering to the Allmighty for what we are explaining.
2259
(original translation)
like the one who passed a town and it tumbled upon its roof how will life be brought to this allah after its death so caused him to die allah a hundred years then he raised him asked how long did you remain dead i remained dead for a day or part of a day he said no you have remained dead for a 100 years look at your food and your drink did not show change and look at your donkey and thus we have made you a sign for the people and look at the bones how we will put them together then will clith them..........
Maat =he became deprived of the intellectual faculty,ignorant.
Maitun = one who has not diedbut is near to dying/or absorbed in grief.
Amatahoo=he caused him to sleep
Aaminn=One who does not see his road or a clear way
Aminn=Blind of both eyes,blind in respect of the mind,erring or one who errs.Uzaamun =very gret,esteemed grest
Nanshazahaa=we will set together(set up)
Naks-haa=will turn upside down
Naksoo-haa=they will be made to hang their heads inshame
Lahman=Giving glances.
Yaumun=Night or day - time.New translation
Like the one who had passed a town and it had tumbled upon its roof he said how will life be brought back to this town allah after its death so allah caused him to to be ignorant ,lost his reasoning , blind then he raised him and asked how long did you remain he said i remained a day or part of a day he said no you had lost your reasoning and was Blind look at your food and your drink not show any change and look at your donkey and thus we have made you a sign for the people and look at the very very great how we will set them up then will be made to hang (their heads) in shame ,(ruined) giving glances.....The entire quran made sense-i believe.
Thanks.
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Peace Mz,
Your translations follow this scheme, you see a word for example "donkey"
and you don't say its an animal, but you say "donkey" is made from "done" + "key" and it means he manufactured/made/produced a key and therefore you go far away from the correct meaning.Languages are not analyzed this way. Some sense of linguistics would help!
Best regards,
sabo -
Thanks Sabo,BUT,
I think you don't follow,because i am not a lingustic but if you care to check out linguastics such as Quranic Dictionary or may be lanes aswell then more then likely you will be surprised from what they say,and this
method of Anelysis or synthasis of words is followed mainly,i have seen by The Quranic Dictionary and as i said and may be lanes aswell,but i think so.Unfortunately this method of joining two or more words to get a new word isn't just confined to arabic but other lingo's as well.
superman = super +man
bookcase = book +case
superhuman
superfine
postboy
sunrise
SUNSET
so many more.I hope this helps,
Salaams. -
Peace MZ,
I also use dictionaries, but unfortunately you look up the wrong words.
There is for example no word in arabic called "YR" (رas the last 2 arabic letters of "khanzeer" (ر . The word for to see (yara ى is written similar but not the same.
Similarly the word AAam , and aAAma are written similarly and share some common letters, but are not the same. The first is a year, and the second is blind.
That's why some linguistics may help. I am not saying that you have to be linguist, but the minimum amount of knowledge is to know how are words written. (S P E L L I N G)
The way you present your translations show that you look up transliterations and not original arabic script, because you are confused about letters and you are looking up the wrong words which are looking similar.
an example in english words like sense and since are sounding very similar and if you make a transliteration to these words using arabic letters, they would look identical (س. Imagine an arab analysing english words written in arabic, he would come to totally different conclusions because he thinks sense = since , which is not true of course. The same is exactly your case.
I hope that helps.
Best regards,
sabo -
Salaams sabo,
you are not using The quranic Dictionary?
see page 166 if you can for this word and others in the right places.
Salaams.
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Salaam MZ,
2246,2258,323 etc.
I see that you are still confused. The word "" can not mean to see, except if it preceeded with a tool to ommit the vowel at the end, like "lam" or "lan" , etc.. (see 2130 or 3677 and a bit of arabic grammar would help u eleminate this confusion)
and in all cases the verb is not following the object, but the object is following the verb. In your case it would be yara khanz, and not the opposite.
It is an expected result, that you confuse things, and arrive to weird conclusions, when you have no knowledge about the language, which you are tranlating from.
Can you tell me, what is the word for "monkey" in arabic?
God bless
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Its funny ,people can imagine to be so advanced,and nulify otherpeoples information - fortunately ,i rather go along with something ,or someone like the writers of the quranic dictionary and lanes ,rather then with sabos findings or thought.Thanks for that.
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Salaams sabo,
why do people always think they know everything,i for a start dont so i allways get the information from the best sources as i said lanes quranic dictionary are very good -and if you come here and start to teach me arabic in comparision to a linguist who'se advice will i recommand.Sorry arabic is not my lingo and i don't care for it much,except to get the message of Allah.And no i don't invent new definitions ,and if you said i did prove it or you are lying out of teeth.
Salaams.
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Salam MZ,
why do people always think they know everything
I don't know why. But how is this relevant to our discussion? Did I claim that I know everything?
M claim wasn't like that. My claim was different. Seems you try to interpret everything in a weird manner. The Quran and even my simple english posts.
,i for a start dont so i allways get the information from the best sources as i said lanes quranic dictionary are very good
They can be very good, if you know how to use them, and if you know how to read the language you are tranlating from. If you give me a dictionary in urdu/english right now, i won't be able to read an urdu text, all what I can do, is what you are doing. Guessing and inventing new rules of language translation.
-and if you come here and start to teach me arabic in comparision to a linguist who'se advice will i recommand.
I have neither time nor desire to teach you We are just on an open forum and I am adressing your translations, as I find them utterly wrong. It's up to you and to others to accept my opinion or not. I am not a teacher. All what i can see is that you present NULL-knowledge about arabic grammar and use weird strange rules, which are not a part of the language. In a dictionary you won't get grammar lessons, so get them elsewhere. Do mercy to urself
Sorry arabic is not my lingo and i don't care for it much,except to get the message of Allah.
Well, if you can't accept critic, which is based on facts, then go ahead and do your translations. I am not trying to stop you. I am only commenting about your translations, since you've presented them to the public. If you kept them to yourself, I wouldn't bother a second to comment about them. I don't care about you in person, I am commenting just a translation.
And no i don't invent new definitions ,and if you said i did prove it or you are lying out of teeth.
I've already done that. See my posts above. If you don't accept it as a proof, its a different matter.
God bless,
sabo -
Thanks.Bro.
No hard feelling Sabo,
Take care,and Salaams.
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salams,
brother mz357, i dont know how you can say you are not interested in arabic, yet you proceed to "translate" the most sophisticated arabic document in the world.
i agree with trying to use quranic/arabic lexicons to help understand the Quran. but you cannot do that without a basic understanding of the arabic language.
arabic is not the same as english. There is no such thing as a contraction of 2 words... there is no such thing as "bookcase," i.e. 2 roots for 1 word. there are no such words in arabic! all arabic words have just ONE root. if you actually spent any time with the LANE lexicon you claim to use, you would know this.
as far as the ability to extract what a root is in a given word, you need to know some grammar for that.
the word khanz does not occur in the quran. of course yara (to see) does appear, many times.
but even if khanz did appear, it has nothing to do with the word khinzeer.. lane should have khinzeer under the root (kha-noon-zain-ra). If it's not there, check another lexicon because i have several in which it is there, and it means specifically, pig.
so while i encourage open-minded invididual exploration of the quran, you have to have some common sense. if you don't know anything about arabic grammar or roots or wazn of words, then you have to realize you are on thin thin ice.
wassalam
ps- i am hoping that you are just extremely naive, or that you are just a kid, and hopefully you are not trying to lead muslims astray. -
Salaams Br.
I can't say how much of an expert in arabic you are,but i have mentioned preiviously,the splitting of words is mainly done in the Quranic dictionary,if you have or can get one then ,i may be able to point some definitions on where it has used the splitting method,But i don't take you as an expert in arabic and am not claiming to be one- ,by the way this method can be used in urdu which originated from arabic and in english so no reason why it shouldn't be used-As the quranic dictonary has also ,linguastically done.I havn't yet checked lanes for this ,but from what i have seen,it must have some words aswell explained in this manner ,and when i find those all the arabs here may know how much they know of their own lingo - As much as the quran no dought.
Peace Br.
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wassalam
i'm no arabic scholar, but i have studied a significant amount of the grammar.
i think what you are talking about is something different. often times different roots can be related. 4 letter roots can sometimes be related or similar to the 3 letter roots, but not the SAME. just related. for example, it is interesting linguistically that the root kha-noon-zain and kha-noon-zain-ra are both dealing with a kind of meat. sometimes in arabic if you have a 3 letter root and you just permutate the order, you get different roots with similar meanings.
but i will repeat, there is no word in arabic that has 2 roots. i dont have lane's on me, but i have seen lane's in the past. i have 3 other lexicons at home including lisaan al arab. if you understood arabic grammar you would know this because that is the whole basis for a lot of the grammar. there are no contractions of 2 roots in arabic at all.
bro i dont mean it offensively, but i know for a fact that "the splitting of words" cannot have been done ANY quranic dictionary (and i have 3 of them here, including one that derives a lot of lane as a source).. and for you to say so is really misleading and frankly i think bordering on lying becuz of the resolution with which you are making these claims.
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Instead of using your imagination,you need a Quranic Dictioner and i only paid about $20. Br. its the one waqas recomanded and zein ,for god sake use your intelect instead of your imagination,
May be you make up things for the world without proof,i am not like you and if i say its there ,then its there ,for you to cary on up the garden path without even authenticating something is beyond everyone .
Salaam-use your God given 20 dollers and authenticate without calling someone names smart guy.
Thank you.
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Peace be upon you brother,
Lets remain peaceful brothers. These are some deeply emotional topics that we discuss here, lets stay on the path while we discuss them.
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salams
bro mz357, the internet is a strange place because it brings together all sorts of strangers. it's just hard to believe that you really are being serious. either you are just messing around with the people on this forum, or are extremely naive... to pretend that you are positive when you aren't, i just have never met someone that behaves this way.
the thing that really tipped me off that something doesn't "smell right" about you is that you mentioned that you aren't even interested in Arabic.
anyway, is lane's lexicon actually 20 dollars? I am sure it's a lot more than that. I think around 100, i have read it in the past and it is a nice work.. the only one of it's kind in English.
I guess you didn't catch this point in my past few posts so let me say this really carefully....
I already have 3 Quranic dictionaries (lexicons).
Already means they are sitting right behind me in my bookshelf and I use them REGULARLY. And I DID look up what you have said and found both roots... a separate one for kha-na-za, and a separate one for kha-na-za-ra. No where was it mentioned that khinzeer is derived from khanz and yara (2 roots).
They are
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Lisaan ul-Arab (in 18 volumes)
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Taj-ul-Uroos (in 10 oversized volumes)
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Lughaat-ul-Quraan (4 volumes)
On the same bookshelf is a series of Arabic grammar books (nahwa al wadih) 6 volumes, which i have read through the secondary level.
So brother, you want proof that I am not just trying to trick you? Just open your own Quranic dictionary. How does it work? Based on roots right? Note, there is ONLY one root per word, in YOUR dictionary. In EVERY dictionary. All you have to do is pick any root, like dha-ra-ba or anything, fa-a'-la... under that heading, the lexicon lists all the words made from that root... is there ANY instance in which another root is brought in to make a new word? no... that is not how arabic works, and that is one of the wonderful things about Arabic. One root per word. This is such an elementary fact of Arabic.
yes, you dont know who i am and i dont know who you are. but what you are saying is very suspicious... that's why i said it seems like you are either lying or purposely misleading people. if i'm wrong, i apologize but i am just commenting on what i see.
also i have no intention of trying to convince you, i'm giving up on that... i was just surprised that no one else had refuted your points, so i had to speak up so that others are not misled by you. Because whether or not you believe it, you WERE misleading others towards something that was absolutely false.
also, people like you hurt our cause. The cause is freedom of thought when approaching the Quran... and the freedom to look up words in lexicons. I strongly support this... but people like you give us a bad name, and make us sound crazy or ignorant. I needed to speak up to make sure that that doesn't happen.
wassalam
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salam shuaib
I have checked what mz357 wrote about khinzeer in The dictionary of the Holy Qur'an bu Abdul Mannan Omar. The book which i have is 1st edition , may 24, 2003
On page 166 Abdul Mannan Omar says
Khaniza to stink, to be evil and bad, be proud. Khinzir its a combination of two words khinz meaning bad and ara meaning I see) bla blaI strongly disagree with Abdul Mannan Omar and think, he has no idea about what he is talking about roll roll
Best regards,
sabo
