Chapter 2 (verses 51-100)
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Salam Mz,
I never accused you to be a liar. did I ?
All what i've said is that you have no knowledge about arabic language and this is not an offense, since no one is expected to have knowledge about all languages. It's something natural that some people have no idea about some languages.
I see that Abdul Mannan Omar has split Khanzeer, Michael, etc. But according to what I know about arabic I disagree with him.
About Michael he says The word is considered (who considers it??) as being a combination of mik and al which means who is like God.
first he doesn't provide any evidence nor analysis nor knowledge WHY is it considered like that and
second I consider no one to be like God and
third I don't consider everything printed on a sheet of paper to be absolutely correct and non questionable and
last I require evidence and analysis for such unusual claims which are considered to be NON-arabic claims.Best regards,
sabo -
Salaams sabo ,
actually i meant shaib was the accuser but still put that to a side.The method or the aproach this dictionery has used may not be liked by a vast majority of the muslim population as it hits right where it hurts especially with this offensive word Khanzeer.
But i have seen this method produce some remarkable results which make perfect sense ,let me explain.If ever you come to a word without a root,and you can't find it neither,for gods sake try splitting the word may be in different places , to me anyway you will find may be a two roots and they Br. do make perfect sense relative to the context concerned is what i have seen.
I have noticed nearly all words have roots but some of them more then one.
By the way i know some arabic but no not as good as you may be.
But then again using ones intellect is a good thing ,God has given us all.
Salaams and thanks.
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salam guys
bro mz, i am sorry but i mentioned that you MIGHT be lying not that you were a liar. but you did also confuse me... you kept mentioning LANE
LANE is just like the traditional lexicons.. i have never heard of this new dictionary you are using... and from the sound of it, it sounds like he may have incorporated his own opinions into it. maybe he was trying to just say that the root of khinzeer is related to the root of khanz. of course, both are kind of dealing with meat, so it's interesting. but that does not mean the separate root khinzeer does not exist!
supposedly abdul mannan omar is deriving his sources from classical works, but the problem is i have those classical works and that is definitely not in there.
i have to say this is a really weird scenario for me, but still you can't blame me for being suspicious because you are taking such a cavalier attitude towards the quran... you can't translate the quran and then be so careless towards arabic.
anyway, i have told you that according to the more ancient classical lexicons... there is no support or basis for abdul mannan omar's techniques.
you mentioned this technique was used in other places. what are they?
ws
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Salaams all,
Unfortunately ,i support QD view on being able to split words .Each word is made up of letters-so for a start you can split up a word into letters.
To me there are hundreds of words which are made up from two or more words.
Even though you are an arab i think ,it surprises me you are saying there are no words made from two or more smaller words joined togather,if so i will try and prove otherwise if Allah wishes,which i am sure he does.
So lets see what you are saying then plainly please,
ANYBODY?.And Salaams All.
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salam all
well br mz357, inshallah your studies will be fruitful.
here's a starting place for you, maybe it'll help maybe not. if khinzeer is derived from 2 roots, khinz, and yara... then there shouldn't be ONE root for khinzeer right? that is, you shouldn't be able to find the root for khinzeer, you have to find the separate split roots for khinz and yara(according to your logic).. the root for khinzeer should not exist by itself. so why is it, that the classic lexicons HAVE a separate root for khinzeer?
this is a simple test for you to test your theory. repeat this process for every word you THINK has 2 roots. if a word is made from 2 roots, then you should not be able to look it up unless you split it up... if you find that word in its OWN class, with its OWN root... then obviously, your theory/his theory is wrong.
wassalam
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Salaams Shuaib,
Dissapointed you havn't even looked into lanes ,and like before you are puting forward something you want the world to believe.Because i think this is your belief.That is a traditional aproach.Let me explain my views and what lanes is saying,and then you can sharpen your wits and dissagree with lanes as as with the Quranic Dictionary,sory like sabo did.
Lanes isn't giving Khanz as a root of the animal , because he is calling it A'khazr -Swine
And therefor there is no root Khanz for a pig ,but it is for Bad ,stinking,altered ,magotty.
The swine is no where to be found with your said root Khanz in lanes.And thus Khanzeer are two words joined together and nothing about the
pig,at all.Bye.
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wassalam br mz357,
well sorry i haven't looked into lane's. i actually dont have a copy of that, and it can be hard to find. not exactly standard reading.
i'm getting confused... so you have Lanes AND QD? or are you just quoting from QD?
and of course i am going to put forward what I believe. what else would i do. but i will say that it is not "traditional." just go to any other forum and find that out for yourself.
so explain this again... Lane is giving "A'KHAZR" as the word swine?? Can you tell me exactly what you mean so that I can check it in my lexicons?
Are you really looking at Lane's or just QD? Because my 3 lexicons ALL have the entry KHA-NOON-ZAIN-RA for khinzeer. You are telling me that entry is missing in Lanes??
And not only that, but Lane gives a totally new word for pig?? can you write a little more about this new word, what else day he say?
ws
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Salaams shoaib,
Sorry Br. i got a little carried away there,i'll explain now.
Yes lans is saying the root of Khanzeer is KH-ZE-RE.But QD is saying ,the word Khanzeer is made of two words ,Khanz and to see ere. Thus giving us the meaning in a certain ayat as =Flash you see is Bad.
To me QD looks right And i personally believe Lanes has put this under this root in accordance with what he was told or in accordance with the quranic ayat translations given to him.
But inshaallah we need to look at other words which have two or more words embodied.
Salaams.
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Peace,
A grammatical point
In the verse we have "lahmoo al-khinzeer" which can be transleted as "meat of the (khinzeer)". The point is that (khinzeer), whatever it means, is not an attribute of meat (not "n?ath" ), it's to define "meat" (of what) ( ).
I hope it's clear.
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Salam all,
And thus Khanzeer are two words joined together and nothing about the pig,at all.
So now according to QD the word Khanzeer still means pig, see page 166
and according to Lane it also means pig, so whatever root it is coming from , the word khenzeer = pig, so i see no problem DIts like saying to someone in arabic "you are himar (donkey)" which in this case means stupid or having a loud voice. Still this doesn't change the fact that the word himar = donkey.
Also for something stinky or dirty in arabic you can call it khinzeer, but this doesn't change the fact, that khenzeer is pig
Best regards,
sabo -
salam guys,
subhanallah, that was really cool that you can post excerpts from Lane! I didn't even know it was on CDrom. that's incredible... and it was very helpful in explaining what bro mz was talking about.
the only thing i dont like about lane is that it's a bit too concise and so it can be a little bit confusing. so let me explain brother mz357, what actually he's saying.
Lane is differing from the other lexicographers in that he is providing a different root for Khinzeer. That's ok, sometimes there are differences of opinion.
The question is what is the root of Khinzeer. So let me back up and explain, how do you know the root of ANY word? There is something that usually helps, called wazn in arabic and Lane calls it "measure" in that excerpt.
Arabic is an almost algabraic language, and often follows formulas. You can insert a root into a formula sometimes, and produce words. For example, if you use a measure fi'leel (that is a common one, Lane mentions it too in that excerpt) which uses the root fa-'a-la. sooo, one theory is that khinzeer is a word using this formula, hence its root should be 4 letter kha-na-za-ra.
however, lane says he leans toward a less common use measure fin-'eel. This would change the deduced root to kha-za-ra.
Note, that this means Lane is saying there is only 1 root for khinzeer... not 2 as bro mz was suggesting. The only debate was whether this is a 3 letter root or 4 letter, whether or not to include the noon as part of the root or whether it was merely an extra letter as part of the wazn. (Like for example, tarkeeb from ra-ka-ba, the "ta" is NOT part of the root, its part of the wazn).
So you're back to the same conclusion, there is only one root for any Arabic word.. roots are NEVER combined. And like bro sabo said,
khinzeer is still pig.. the lexicographers were unanimous in explaining that much.
wassalam
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Peace all
Im an interested in the various meanings of the arabic word(s) used for 'kill yourselves' in your translation, this because Khalifa has translated it as 'kill your egos.' All feedback is appreciated.
- And Moses said to his people ?O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.?
- And you said ?O Moses, we will not believe you until we see God openly!? So the lightning bolt took you while you were still staring.
- Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative.
pz
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Peace,
RAMA-DHANA=2 words
2185 Months of shedding of thoughts which is transmitted in it - the Qur?an - a guide for mankind and the explanation from the guidance and the criterion. Hence whoever witness from among you the months (52) - thus he shall abstain - and whoever is unfit or on assignments - thus fix it from the days later. God wishes with you the convenience - and He wishes not with you the hardship - and that you may complete the counts - and you shall glorify God over whatever He has guided you - so that you may be appreciative.
The word in this verse is rama-dhor-naa Rama (817) which literally means to throw, cast or shed and dhan means thought, contemplate, think or consider The Arabic Hijrah calendar was not created after the 12th year Muhammad became a prophet. The month of ramadhan never exist during his time. The first month of the Arabic calendar is ?mu-harram?. The message of the Quran is transmitted into the heart of individuals by Gabriel (297) as the on-going process and it can happen in any month of the year.
The word ?fal-ya-sum-hu? means ?thus he shall abstain himself? as self-discipline once he knows the knowledge from God?s Book. A man abstains himself from eating and drinking from dawn to the night for a certain number of days 2184 if he fails in taking the challenge in promoting God?s guidance 2196 or breaks a pledge 589 - abstain himself from participating in war for two months 492 ? from hunting until the animals mature 595 ? from resuming sexual intercourse for two months if he decides to reconcile with his wife after saying - if he had sexual intercourse with the wife during the separation period it is just like having sex with his own mother 584. To abstain from speeches - to avoid a war of words 1926. -
Salam Grourself,
I'm not sure i really follow what you are saying...
firstly, i can't find the quote that you mentioned. the word rama is used in surah 817 but not in the way that you used it. i also looked at the verse before it and after. am I missing something here?
also, as far as the months not existing before the prophet, i was pretty sure that they did exist already. what makes you say they didn't? but that's a very minor point... the major point is...
i dont know how aware you are of arabic, but DH in English dont cut it. Yes, DHAN (thought) and ramaDHAN seem the same, but they use totally different letters in Arabic. i.e. you are making a simple spelling mistake.
Now correct me if i've misunderstood anything... but as far as i can see, you should be very disturbed by whatever you've been taught.. clearly you didn't have the know-how to come up with this silly business yourself. where are you guys getting this??? care to share your sources???
wassalam
