Chapter 2 (verses 51-100)
-
Peace be upon you Grourself,
For example, I have seen Christians immediately go on the defensive when told, ?The Qur'aan says Jesus was a Muslim?. Actually the Qur'aan says Jesus surrendered for God. There is a totally different tenor to that statement. I hope I?ve made myself clear
CRYSTAL CLEAR!!! Very good post! Regarding etymology, I am in agreement.
(1424) Do you not see how The God gave a similitude/example (of) a good word,as a good tree, its root (is) affirmed/established (fixed) and its branch/top (is) in the sky?
(1426) And (the) similitude/example (of) a bad/spoiled word (is) as a bad/spoiled tree, (it) was uprooted from above the ground , no bottom (root is) for it.
-
Peace mz357
Does this method work if the word only accurs once or maybe twice throughout the quran ,mistranslated, or should one seek the aid of the dictionary with respect to the context of the ayat in quision and the surounding ayats?
That is a good question and I am looking into that as you are obviously doing too. Compound words are not unique and are one possibility. You know how God asks the questions, ?Will you not use your sense? Or Will you not think?? I try to keep this in mind when I read something like a human becoming an ape or swine. My sense has no problem rejecting that and looking for a rational interpretation. I think if we use our sense we will find the answers. God is aware of the sense He gave us, He also said seek proof of things. So a response like, God can do anything, or God says so, that?s why, smacks of religion. He says He made immutable laws and that is how He pleases. Nothing in the Qur'aan indicates that His creation or His judgment operates arbitrarily.
The nonsense we have to siff through proves Common sense is not so common after all!
-
dear grourself,
thanks for your reply. I agree with a lot of what you say, but again i would say that you have to be very careful before making dramatic conclusions (which goes without saying).
I agree that it is important to know about entymology, and that the Quran is the best of tafsirs etc... but Arabic is special. That is why Allah calls the Arabic language mubeen in the Quran.
You're right that languages change with time, and that was the biggest threat (in my mind) for the Quranic preservation. If the text stayed the same, but the language itself changed in meaning, then that would distort the message of the Quran. But this is exactly where the strength of Arabic comes in.
Most languages change because of changings in the exact meanings of words and the usage of words.
ROOT MEANINGS
At some point, it has to be concluded (through observation), that Arabic was very carefully constructed. This is not a matter of belief or faith but the more closely you look at this amazing langauge, it becomes obvious.Now all various words of a particular shared root should share meaning in some way. When you gather all the words from a particular root and study their different meanings together, the true meaning of each word is reinforced. That is why, for example, when we look at the word rahmaan, now commonly translated as merciful... if we go back to the root, we find that it has absolutely nothing to do with mercy... we know this because all the other words derived from the root have nothing to do with mercy, and the basic word means mother's womb (i.e. nourishment).
I'm sure so far we are on the same page... but here's what I want to get across...
Arabic is very much a constructed algebraic type language. For example, the verb to do, fa'a'la. If you ad an alif after fa, it becomes faa'il, doer. And actually, if you add an alif after many other root words, it becomes a "doer." Such as kataba to write, kaatib writer. This goes for pretty much every root word in Arabic. So you can imagine how silly someone would seem if they came and said well Kaat and ib are 2 separate root words.
This is the first aspect of the grammar of words. And the more you look into the language, you will see this pattern repeated... formulas are used throughout arabic to derive words from roots.
The funny thing is, you dont even need to spend a lot of time on it. Even a basic study of Arabic will lead you to these conclusions, because its just so darn obvious. Araby is mubeen!
In the same way, we derive the word Qur'aan from qara'a to read. And kaslaan (lazy adjective) from kasala to be lazy. Another word that is constructed according to the same pattern is ramadaan. It's root describes very hot weather, probably representing that the month was named in a year when it occurred in the summer.
SO, what i am trying to say is that in Arabic, entymology is exactly the grammar of word construction also called sarf. But of course, grammar extends beyond that and also includes how words are used in conjunction.
This is also helpful because it creates order. Obviously, if anyone were to manipulate the Arabic language in whatever way they wanted and everyone was coming up with their own separate interpretations, there would be chaos. That is why there is order built RIGHT into the language. It is the most ordered and most well constructed language in existence.
Well this was long-winded but basically I am saying
- Entymology is important
- Arabic entymology is unique, due to the nature of roots
- Entymology is a part of grammar
- Grammar is organized and works literally like algebra (in Arabic) and just like algebra, it should be obvious to various indendent observers.
ws.
ps - out of curiosity you mentioned"What I?d really like to focus on rather than dictionaries or grammar at this stage of my journey is etymology. Dictionary meanings change and are constantly added to, which any dictionary worth its salt would have to do, but the root meaning of a word never changes. I think the etymology is one of the keys to preserving the meanings of the words in the Qur'aan and gives a clearer understanding of what the word has come to mean and how it is used."
I'm curious as to how you are planning on doing entymology without any other source than the Quran. You mention that the roots never change, are you yourself deriving all these roots based on the usages of the word Quran... or is this just some glib word-play without meaning? How are you ACTUALLY in reality using roots?
-
Peace Shuaib,
I'm curious as to how you are planning on doing entymology without any other source than the Quran. You mention that the roots never change, are you yourself deriving all these roots based on the usages of the word Quran... or is this just some glib word-play without meaning? How are you ACTUALLY in reality using roots?
Me? I?m not deriving anything. I?m a novice. My statements were meant to represent that in the absence of qualified research I?d do the next best thing. I?m searching for something or some source of reliable reference (preferably non-religious) that has the same focus, roots. Then, I?d want to compare the usage of the words in the Qur'aan and perhaps make sense of the NONSENSE. It?s a colossal waste of time and energy trying to ponder over a verse only to later discover that it doesn?t even say ?that?. That?s why all the rationalizing and conjecturing trying to explain to those with common sense what the Book says. The best English dictionaries contain a detailed etymology. The dilemma we face is that we are left with an independent author?s choice of the appropriate English words to define the roots.
Once the appropriate English words are chosen to represent each verb, then these words or word must be used consistently throughout the translation allowing only shades of the same meaning to be used. I do not want the translator to decide for me that this is actually what is meant. He needs only to write what it actually says. God teaches it. He does not need to try to form grammatically correct English sentences or beautify it like poetry. The traditional English translations it seems were done by anyone but someone born to the languages, both Arabic & English. I have a good friend who I am convinced is not trying to slant his translation but when he chooses a word in English and I look in a dictionary, his usage is correct but it?s not the word someone who speaks English would probably chose to say the same thing. It sometimes causes me to misunderstand his intent until I look in the dictionary. It?s sort of like the difference between written and spoken Arabic.
Arabic is special, the sheer number of these algebraic formulas make it the best language known to man to clearly express oneself. In English we can be left to guess what the author means but these formulas correctly used leave no room for doubt. You say easy, I agree, it?s not rocket science but the volumes of rules can put off the casual or beginner level student. I?ve received my English education in what I suppose could be called one the best universities this country has to offer and one thing they drummed into my head was difference between good writing and good communicating. The translation of the Qur'aan needs to communicate without the influence of the translator. I spoke to a retired professor from Al Ahzar University in Egypt who says there are un-translated archived writings that for instance prove that the salaah of the messenger was not a ritual, true?, maybe. In this age of information and technology I think a translation could be done with a think tank or committee of the brightest and the best with a common goal, the truth; those best in Arabic and the art of English communication. God has promised to support with His forces those who attain to conviction and with this in mind, united, we may clean the translations.
-
dear grourself,
well i'm not so sure that a translation could be done bro. The problem is that Arabic is very precise and specific. Well, you could have like an exposition or explanation of each verse, but obviously not a word for word translation. That also is a great place to start, but obviously not a replacement for the Arabic because the new insights and developments will have to be done through the Arabic. (And indeed the interpretation of the Quran should advance with human knowledge).
As far as the Arabic language being intimidating... well i agree, you can't expect to just casually learn a language especially as different as Arabic. And there also is a lack of good English written books on Arabic grammar. But I seriously think if every Muslim took out 1 month or 2 sometime in their life to study the language then they could progress quickly... I mean come on, for all other serious pursuits we dedicate our much more time.
But because Arabic is very constructed, it is also easier to learn. For example, in French it is a massive headache conjugating verbs. There are numerous tenses and variations. In Arabic, there is past present and command form, and future is made by merely adding seen to the front of the present form. It's really a one day lesson!
Anyway, as far as the ritualistic aspect of Islam goes... I have just a couple words of advice. Some of these acts may now seem futile... but when they were actually parts of a working machine, they were useful. Doing military exercises as part of an army makes a lot of sense, but then when the army is disbanded and people just live their separate lives, those same exercises seem silly or futile. As far as salah, it actually can be proven in the Quran that this was indeed a physical act.
Fasting, prayer, hajj, all of these "ritualistic" items do have some wisdom in them... and are meant to strengthen and unify the ummah... of course the way they are practiced now often leads to the opposite, unfortunately.
ws
-
peace Khalil,
You may wish to cross-reference the root within al quran
Qaf-Ta-Lam
http//www.openburhan.com/pages/ob4faa.html
Wakas
Peace Wakas
I am extremely new to Arabic, extremely new is an understatement however. Today is my first attempt, based on your page at http//homepage.ntlworld.com/think786/PRLr1.zip
Wa-ith qala moosaliqawmihi ya qawmi innakum thalamtumanfusakum biittikhathikumu alAAijla fatooboo ilabari-ikum faoqtuloo anfusakum thalikumkhayrun lakum AAinda bari-ikum fataba AAalaykuminnahu huwa alttawwabu alrraheemu
And remember Moses said to his people "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness) For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Here's what I have concluded based on the following.
Q-T-L
Wa = And
-itha qala= remeber
moosa=moses
liqawmihi=said
ya=to
qawmi innakum=his people
thalamtumanfusakum=you (plural male) ......
....
al=the
AAijla=cafeThis is what I was able to understand/sabotage(?). I could not find the word with QTL in that order as it said in your root list (Qwiar.htm).
I am going to take up your suggestion on purchasing a arabic/english transliteration (pronounciation) Quran and learn basic terms and begin from there. I have a question though, is this reccomended for begginers?
http//www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963206788/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/104-8951258-3426304?v=glance&s=books
pz
-
Peace be upon you Khalil,
Regarding the verse where "musa" told his people to kill thierselves, I do not translate "nafs" as SELF. I beleive that "nafs" is "MIND", so he told them to KILL thier MINDS they had, meaning to get rid of thier rejecting thoughts.
The God tells us that He does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier MINDS(nafs).
I hope that helps.
Peace be upon you Idolfree1
Your understanding sounds more consistent, because in verse 55 the disbelievers tell Moses "We will never believe in you until we see God manifestly." It appears to me if Moses were to order them to kill theirselves then verse 55 would be incosistent. But, if he ordered them to change their minds (as you put forth) then verse 55 makes sense (to me), since it is talking about changing a belief-what one holds in their mind.
I like your take on 853 and 1311. I have a question, is Nafs root Qaf-Ta-Lam? If so what are all the possible meanings?
pz
-
peace khalil,
Please take your time in understanding Arabic. I myself, am a novice but I'm improving all the time.
I strongly suggest you re-read the subsections in PRL, titled 'What is a root?' and 'Which root is being used?', and go through each step carefully when trying to identify a root.
You asked if the root (i.e. component letters) of 'nafs' is Qaf-Ta-Lam. Simply say the word 'nafs' out loud. Does it sound like it has the letters/sounds of Qaf, Ta or Lam? No. Its main sounds are Na-F-S, this implies the root contains the Arabic letters Nun-Fa-Siin OR Sawd. This is my guess. I checked my sources, and the root is Nun-Fa-Siin. Simple. This is not listed in PRL release 1, as its incomplete. I will include it in release 2, GW.
Onto your question of finding the word with root QTL in the following
Wa-ith qala moosaliqawmihi ya qawmi innakum thalamtumanfusakum biittikhathikumu alAAijla fatooboo ilabari-ikum faoqtuloo anfusakum thalikumkhayrun lakum AAinda bari-ikum fataba AAalaykuminnahu huwa alttawwabu alrraheemu
Why did you only translate part of the sign/verse? You only did upto the part in bold above. If you went a little further, you would have seen the relevant word with the correct root QTL (it is highlighted in blue). Please re-read 'Which root is being used?'. Btw, you should click on the file titled 'list_roots' to start. The root QTL is not in release 1, but I will include it in release 2, GW.
Wakas
-
The info
From Lane and Quran Dictionary (this is the book you linked to at amazon.com, I would recommend it)
Nun-Fa-Siin (root of 'nafs')
occurrences
http//www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.405.htm
possible meanings
was or became high in estimation, of high account or excellent, highly prized/precious/valuable and therefore desired with much emulation or much request, desired, it became loved or highly esteemed, console, cheer, envy.
Was or became avaricious/tenacious/niggardly of it because of its being in high estimation or excellent, little to much good.
Brought forth (e.g. gave birth to a child), menstruated, blood.
Clear away grief/anxiety/sorrow, ease/relieve, delay.
Breath, gust, drew breath, sigh, spoke long (due to regular intake of breath), become extended/long/increased, ability.
Soul/spirit, the vital principle, intellect/reason/mind, inner desire or feeling, knowledge, pride, self-magnification, a state where there is ample scope for action, 'willingly' when used as adverb, nafs - soul of discrimination (mental) and ruh - soul of breath (physical), oneself/itself, whole, essential constituent, reality, sometimes ghayb and nafs are synonymous, a person/being/individual, quantity, man, life, soul + body, life-blood, body, contention/thought/face/substance, heart, stomach, gulp, drought.
Brother or co-partner in faith/religion/relationship.
Wide space, distance, width.
Greatness, nobility, glory, scarcity, absoluteness, unseen, hidden reality which is beyond human perception, intention, requital, punishment.
Qaf-Ta-Lam (root of qatala)
occurrences
http//www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.273.htm
possible meanings
to kill, put to death, be accused, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, render person like to one killed, to wage war/combat/battle, contend/fight, deadly, knew a thing thoroughly/well, become acquainted with it.
Wakas
-
peace khalil,
Please take your time in understanding Arabic. I myself, am a novice but I'm improving all the time.
I strongly suggest you re-read the subsections in PRL, titled 'What is a root?' and 'Which root is being used?', and go through each step carefully when trying to identify a root.
Peace Wakas
I have printed out the sections you mentioned and am going to put them into action (Gw). I will take your suggestion, and try to comprehend them. I will try this out several times until I am finitely satisfied with the result and then move forward to chapter two, three, etc ...
You asked if the root (i.e. component letters) of 'nafs' is Qaf-Ta-Lam. Simply say the word 'nafs' out loud. Does it sound like it has the letters/sounds of Qaf, Ta or Lam? No. Its main sounds are Na-F-S, this implies the root contains the Arabic letters Nun-Fa-Siin OR Sawd. This is my guess. I checked my sources, and the root is Nun-Fa-Siin. Simple. This is not listed in PRL release 1, as its incomplete. I will include it in release 2, GW.
Onto your question of finding the word with root QTL in the following
Wa-ith qala moosaliqawmihi ya qawmi innakum thalamtumanfusakum biittikhathikumu alAAijla fatooboo ilabari-ikum faoqtuloo anfusakum thalikumkhayrun lakum AAinda bari-ikum fataba AAalaykuminnahu huwa alttawwabu alrraheemu
Why did you only translate part of the sign/verse? You only did upto the part in bold above. If you went a little further, you would have seen the relevant word with the correct root QTL (it is highlighted in blue). Please re-read 'Which root is being used?'. Btw, you should click on the file titled 'list_roots' to start. The root QTL is not in release 1, but I will include it in release 2, GW.
Wakas
I definitely rushed to fast. I only translated part of it because my dad was coming upstairs and he is bothered when I read about anything god orientated, so I hastly typed clumbsfully to avoid conflict.
Having printed the pages out I will be able to spend much more time on them.
I appreciate your help.
Thank you for the root words as well.
pz
-
peace All,
I found a verse which implies the root QTL can mean to kill, non-literally. Please read 466-68. I say this because The God does not guide someone after they have killed themselves, i.e. one can only be guided when they are alive.
Now read 254.
Thus, this word in these specific occurrences should be changed to 'overcome' in the PM QT.
Wakas
-
Peace
It is unfortunate that the quran is being linked to a language of the humanbeings. Quran is the language of Allah, the definitions of its words are with HIM and in the Luvhul Mahful wherein the Quran is established and well Guarded by Allah.
Quran is not arabic language of human. Quran by itself is The Language! The language of Allah! Allah teaches Quran to whom He wishes and thereby lead him in the staright path. To claim that one shall have to be scholar in arabic language and its grammar to understrand quran - is like darwin calling monkeys father of man just because the monkeys have the qualities of human mischief. Arabs have mischievously been caliming themselves over 1500 years to be the authority for quran teachings.
See what allah says to the all the people of the world who Allah shall explain Quran in detail
- 002, 003, 004
It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
He has created man
He has taught him The Explanation/Details
096.005
Taught man that which he knew not.
035.014
None can inform you like Him Who is Aware.
012076
Above every one possessed of knowledge is the All-knowing one, Allah
Quran is for the illiterate, given to the unlettered prophet. Quran is not for the scholars of arabic but for the pagans too. Thus, arabs/arabic scholars shall never be asked for the meanings of Al Quran; since they aught to be excluded for they mislead the people thinking that Quran is their language, forgetting that Quran is well protected and it is with Allah. They do not even know what they have with them is The Book, the key to QURAN.
085.021, 022
Nay, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
In well Guarded Luvhul mahful.Arabs/scholars/dictionaryand grammar people have no right on account of such truth, to explain quran. Let them get this straight first! What they think as Quran is infact The BOOK, the key for Quran. Their job is over with the literal translation of THE BOOK.
Do dikr on the verses of the BOOK, turning your faces towards Allah. Beware of the arabic scholars! Never look up to them for explanations on Quran, for, Allah alone shall Grant the Wisdom upon who He Wishes. Those who seek the help of the arbic language are in a way become mushriks. Allah alone is sufficient for us, if we are mumins. He shall open up the Straight Way, of the heavens the Siratun Mustaqeem.
drfazl
- 002, 003, 004
