Alcohol
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Dear Asana,
Why those who know Arabic don?t come out and explain it why the word is sin if God didn't want to make it Haram in 2219? Hasn't God made Haram sin in 733 and the word isn't exactly the same as in 2219?
I am one of those who "know Arabic" yet you seem to completly ignore what I have said on the subject
Does knowing Arabic only qualify if I agree with you?
As for the verses you have quoted...
peace
Any sin small or big is Haram.Those who say that God didn?t made this sin that sin Haram they should read the below verse where the word of sin specifically has been used and God make it Haram
733- Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know."
And now see the same word as sin in 2219
2219- They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." ??.
Those who drink alcohol commit Haram for a small benefit?They sell their sous for a very cheap price
God, as you have rightly pointed out, is VERY PRECISE. Thus, had He said what you think He said (that alcohol is "Ithm/Sin" then He would be contradicting Hismelf by naming those who are intoxicated in 443 "believers/mumineen" which cannot possibly be the case if they are tained by "sin" and commiting a "forbidden" act.
What God does say is "IN THEM / FIHIMA" ITHM/SIN.
The difference is drastic to say the least....Alcohol in itself is neither a sin/ithm nor forbidden nor even restricted (with the exception of not approaching Salat) - however, WITHIN the alcohol there may or may not lay "sin/ithm" which is a bad thing - and this is the part that comes from the exploitation of the devil in causing strife and the missing of God's rememberance.
Finally, I would like to point out that the Quran always lumps "alcohol & gambling" together when God discusses their downside - which means that the "Ithm/Sin" that could come out of them is common and not specific to one over the other (namely causing strife amongst people and missing the rememebrance of God).
I don't see 7 pages of posts flaring up on the subject of gambling and how the stock market and othe instruments of chance are being used as tools of satan unless they are regulated further and controlled...Yet, this is the twin of alcohol's downside in the Quran and most of you probably have bought stocks for a gain or participated in a lottory or scratch card without making all this fuss!
Believers will not only have rivers of alcohol in heaven - but they will have it on earth because they do not fear nor forbid what God has made lawful. group
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lol. And in 10 years you look like a tired heroinist. I mean people make the difference of light and strong drugs, but they end up looking very similar in the end.
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Forbid the benefits??? Did I not say over and over again that the harm outweighs the benefits??? go back through my posts.
And yes of course I am fearful of drinking. That is my personal stance. So why is there a problem with it??? Am I doing something illegal with respect to the Quran??? Having a negative opinion on a topic is not the same as saying that something is forbidden . If I choose to highlight only the negative aspects of alcohol it does not mean that I support it's prohibition. The only reason why I choose to only highlight the negative is because the benefits of the consumption of alcohol is menial when compared to the harm. This is not only scientifically true but it is consistent with what the Quran is saying.
Peace,
Kevin.
Peace, it isn't specifically you as I said previously. Most of the people coming into this thread share the view that it is forbidden totally, although you personally may not.
As for the fear; explore why you are afraid and how deep that fear goes. Not to drink but because any fears will in some way obscure the quran; e.g. an absolute disbeliever in the quran is totally afraid of the truth, so it stands a total believer cannot be. Ultimately there can be no fear with the path prescribed by the creator except fear for the creator. I personally find most of my fears of things in al-quran to be interconnected. Fear only comes from the unknown, and while we personally can't know everything we can know He who does know everything.
It reminds me of this one man who stopped a vicious fight between two gangs, they had an array of deadly weapons and they were ready to butcher each other. He stopped the fight and brought peace between them in a really tense situation, putting his life on the line. An average person simply would not have the gusto to stand for the peace in such a time but he was one of those muslims who just knew in his heart that his creator alone gives and takes life.
Highlight the negative, that is fine, I will also highlight the positive. There is no disagreement between us for we judge from the same book in the end.
Peace
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What God does say is "IN THEM / FIHIMA" ITHM/SIN.
The difference is drastic to say the least....Alcohol in itself is neither a sin/ithm nor forbidden nor even restricted (with the exception of not approaching Salat) - however, WITHIN the alcohol there may or may not lay "sin/ithm" which is a bad thing - and this is the part that comes from the exploitation of the devil in causing strife and the missing of God's rememberance.
The sentence is
If the words are understood individually as if they were scattered in pages of dictionary, the above perception may be drawn. But here it is a complete sentence and all words are interrelated.
The sentence is inverted nominal sentence. is the subject, not the predicate. is prepositional phrase relating to predicate, the verb being elided, since meanings are evident from the preposition.
The severe delapidating effect/great sin is inherent in both of them..
And the ground reality is this
However, for certain people sources of profitability/ immediate/momentary benefits are lodged in both of them. Take note that the dilapidating/sinful effect of both is much greater than the immediate gain from both".
Word by Word Analysis 2219
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443
2219
590
591To brother Layth after reading all those verses do you think that Alcohol is overall a good thing and should not be avoided by Muslims ?
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Note that 243 explicitly prohibits zina for the mumin.
Anything that is totally prohibited in quran does not begin with "they ask you concerning". Why, because ALLAH exerts his rightful overarching dominion in those matters. There is zero question about the true transgressions.
Whereas when the people ask the rasool about something, only for intoxicants does he/ALLAH not give a specific answer (54, 2222). 54 says at-tayyibat is allowed. Does the benefit of khamr fall under at-tayyibat? Or is khamr totally haram, there is no tayyibat in it? Check 587/88 too.
O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess for Allah loveth not those given to excess.
For instance with regards to women it also says "keep away". This can be directly understood as do not touch and that is another matter altogether. The fact is, it says there is only harm and then it says keep away. Just wanted to point these verses out.
Peace
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Dear Layth
Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.
Does knowing Arabic only qualify if I agree with you?
Not really .I wasn?t expecting you agree with me?.I only wanted you and those who know Arabic to tell me what God means by using the exact word as sin in those two verses(2219,733)?.And I was sure that you wouldn't answer it and I was proved to be right.
You just said what you?d like to say as your own personal opinion rather enlightening me about the usage of the word of sin.God, as you have rightly pointed out, is VERY PRECISE. Thus, had He said what you think He said (that alcohol is "Ithm/Sin" then He would be contradicting Hismelf by naming those who are intoxicated in 443 "believers/mumineen" which cannot possibly be the case if they are tained by "sin" and commiting a "forbidden" act.
I can see a great fallacy in your understanding/logic dear Layth .If one eats meat of pig should the person observe contact prayer/Salat or not? If not why not, if yes then why ?because according to your logic, the person committed an act of Haram.
God commands the believers what to do and not to do .Does that mean if a believer commit some sin should God command him/her not to observe Salat ? He askes the one who used the toxicant not to observer Salat because of the state of the mind to know what he/she says.The user of the intoxicant might utter blasphemy instead of praising/glorifying God.Isn?t God Merciful that ask them not to observe Salat ?Or was His intention that to endorse the using intoxicant for the believers is fine?Which one is?
Finally, I would like to point out that the Quran always lumps "alcohol & gambling" together when God discusses their downside - which means that the "Ithm/Sin" that could come out of them is common and not specific to one over the other (namely causing strife amongst people and missing the rememebrance of God).
Contradiction. God mentions four satanic acts in one verse after each other (590).And He asks us to avoid them. Would you think it?s ok if we commit a little bit of Idolatry? If not why not? If Idolatry as small as atom is a sin and we should avoid it then why not intoxicant and gambling can't be sin especially when God uses the word of sin for it?
I don't see 7 pages of posts flaring up on the subject of gambling and how the stock market and othe instruments of chance are being used as tools of satan unless they are regulated further and controlled...Yet, this is the twin of alcohol's downside in the Quran and most of you probably have bought stocks for a gain or participated in a lottory or scratch card without making all this fuss!
You?re right. nobody said a thing about gambling and game of chance but nobody said about altars of idols too that we must avoid ? .nobody said one word that no matter how small is an act of idolatry it is a sin and is Haram and must be avoided too! And yet God used one verb for four satanic acts to be avoided.
Believers will not only have rivers of alcohol in heaven - but they will have it on earth because they do not fear nor forbid what God has made lawful.
Fallacy again. In 1667 God mentions making of intoxicants and good provision from palms and grapes? If intoxicant was good provision then why mentioning of ?good provision? there? He could have only said that you make good provision from Palms and grapes then we all knew that intoxicants are good provision too.
By saying that drinking Alcohol is ok since God has mentioned it 4715 in Paradise then it means God contradict Himself. It means in one verse He?s asking us to avoid them and in another verse He is going to feed us with it!!Wowwwwwwwww! Surely that wine is not intoxicant as in our human concept like the water there is not polluted too.
1667-And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce intoxicants, as well as good provisions. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who understand.
590- O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
God does not leave the believers live in gray zone....His truth is either black or white....Those who believe using intoxicants is ok since God mentioned of some benefit in them live in gray zone which is man-made.
peace
Asana -
Dear Edip
Eventhough not addressed to me, I would like to ask you if I understood your point correctly. You state alcohol is the deed of Satan, but you still do not say it is forbidden. Am I to interpret this as you share the view that "no, it is not stated as forbidden in the Quran, but it warns us to the full about the dangers"?
Dear Emil,
I am not clear what you mean by "forbidden". If you mean legal ban, then my answer is a No. It is left to the society to regulate alcoholic beverages. I am personally against criminalization of using alcohol and drugs.
However, if you mean morally or spiritually. Absolutely. There is not a magic word, a single word to forbid a thing or act. If God tells us that something is from Satan and recommends us to stay away from it, then it is forbidden. I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction.
Peace,
Edip -
It is the "effects" that carry the possibility of being "deeds of satan" (Rijs min amal alshaytan), and not the alcohol itself. A similar example can be found in 1764 where God tells us that satan may share in peoples wealth and children...that does not make these things (wealth, children) evil or satanic in themselves, but it means that satan can have influence over our dealing with such things to cause us more harm than good...
The wording of the verse that you refer to is not similar to the verse about intoxicants. Satan might try to divert us through our children and possession, but it does not mean that our children and possession in default are satanic. If we do not allow to Satan we can have them as blessing. As for intoxicants, they are themselves claimed to be "the work of devil"
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit...?
No forbidden, no avoid...just a warning that they contain good and bad and that the bad typically outweighs the good.
You are right if this was the only verse on this subject. Verse 590 asks us to avoid it.
Also, I know you are not a believer in the Sunni abrogation theory, so you are fully aware of the regulation of 443 that asks people not to approach Salat while intoxicated - which by default makes it clearly permissible.
The followers of hadith and sunna reject this statement by claiming the presence of a contradiction between this verse (443) and other verses prohibiting the intoxicants. Their rejection of God's verse and their allegation of contradiction in God's book are due to their ignorance of the fact that there could be individuals among muslims who consume alcoholic beverages just as there could be those who steal, commit adultery, or commit false accusation.
Acknowledgement of the imperfect nature of a Muslim community does not mean that God justifies sins and crimes. Our Lord informs a Muslim who is doing wrong to himself or herself by consuming alcohol not to commit additional disrespect to God by addressing God in a drunken state of mind. Additionally, this verse indirectly gives permission to the community to not to allow their intoxicated brothers and sisters into the places of prostration. Another lesson derived from this commandment is that we should know what we are saying or reciting during our prayers. Reciting Arabic words without knowing their meanings is like praying while intoxicated. See 2106; 482.
Peace
Edip -
Layth and others, please read the following research of mine on intoxicants. May God guide us to the right understanding
The root of the Arabic word we translated as "intoxicants" is KhaMaRa and it means "to cover." If its first letter is read with Ha (9) rather than Kh (600), it then means Red, referring to red wine (For the usage of Hamar in the Bible, see Deuteronomy 3214; Isaiah 272 Ezra 69; 722; Daniel 51-2,4). We prefer its common pronunciation. Some translations, while accepting the same pronunciation, have erroneously restricted the meaning of the word by translating it as "wine" or "liquor." Consumption of all intoxicants, be they alcoholic beverages, drugs, crack, cocaine, heroin, etc. are covered by this prohibition. The harm inflicted to individual and society by alcoholic beverages, drugs and gambling is enormous. See 590-91.
The Quran does not prohibit alcoholic beverages or drugs legally, and thus does not suggest any punishment for mere usage of alcohol. Hadith books ordaining severe penalties for the consumption of alcohol contradict the Quranic jurisprudence, since people's personal choices, how bad they may be, cannot be penalized by society. Society can only punish acts that are direct or proximate causes of harm to another person or persons. Besides, putting limitations on individual rights wastes society's resources, increases corruption, hypocrisy, and underground criminal activities, and other crimes. Legally banning and criminalizing the consumption and production of alcohol, a liquid drug, at the turn of 20th century proved to be a bad idea. Similarly, criminalizing the consumption of other drugs is also a bad idea. Society's resources should be used for the prevention and rehabilitation of these kinds of socially and psychologically caused addictions.
However, the Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals for various reasons, including moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, so do not choose to be stupid or more stupid than you already are!) and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not con-tribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang).
The common justification for using alcohol, "I drink in moderation," is not convincing, since almost all those who suffer from alcohol abuse or its consequences such as drunk driving, had started with moderation, sip by sip, and gradually increased the dosage because of peers or uncontrollable events in their lives. Today's moderate drinker may be tomorrow's addict. Why take the chance, especially when it is not a necessity? Stupidity in moderation is not something to be justified, let alone glorified. Rational people should not subject themselves and the society to the grave risks inflicted by alcohol. Besides, moral people should not support an industry that hurts a big segment of the society. The anecdotal "research" results that are occasionally advertised by the media claiming that the usage of wine or alcohol in moderation to be healthy for the heart is suspect, since beer and wine companies are major supporters of the media through commercials.
Many correlations are ignored by the so-called researchers. For instance, studying the impact of wine consumption on health, without taking into account the income, health insurance, diet, lifestyle, genetic make up, and environment of wine-drinkers, will not produce a reliable cause-and-effect relationship. Interestingly, some of the health benefits attributed to alcohol have been listed for grape juice, though in higher doses. Even if alcohol or any other drug had some economic, social and even health benefits, the Quran reminds us of the proven fact that their harms outweigh their benefits.
The Bible contains contradictory messages regarding the use of wine or alcoholic beverages. The Hebrew equivalent of the Quranic word Sakar (1667; 443) is Shekar (intoxicant) and it is criticized by the Old Testament (Leviticus 109; Judges 134, Isaiah 287; Isaiah 511; 249; 299; 5612; Joel 33; Amos 66; Pr 201; 316; Micah 211). Wine impairs the health, judgment and memory (1 Samuel 2537; Hosea 411; Peter 314-5), inflames the passions (Isaiah 511), and leads to sorrow, contention and remorse (Peter 2329-32). Wine also cheers God and man (Judges 913; Zechariah 917; Psalms 10415; Esther 110; Ecclesiastes 1019), and strengthens the body (2Samuel 162; Song 25).
Though the consumption of wine is occasionally approved and even encouraged through the daily sacrifice (Exodus 2940-41), with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 2313), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 154-10), the Bible also contains some prohibitions. For in-stance it prohibits wine for the Rechabites (Jeremiah 351-19), the Nazirites (Judges 137; Luke 115; 733), and the priests when engaged in their services (Leviticus 101, 9-11). It also lists wine as offerings of idolatry (Deuteronomy 3237-3.
The Hebrew Bible uses about a dozen words to refer to different kinds of alcoholic beverages (Ashisha, Asis, Hemer, Enabh, Mesekh, Tirosh, Sobhe, Shekar, Yekebh, Shemarim, Mesek). However, some Biblical scholars limit the application of this prohibition by translating the Shekar as "strong drink." The majority of Christian sects have no religious inhibition regarding the consumption of alcohol. Easton, a Jesus-worshipping tri-theist, writes "Our Lord miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John 21-11)."The New Testament also contains warnings for people against the excess consumption of intoxicants (Luke 2134; Romans 1313; Ephesians 518; 1 Timothy 38; Titus 17). But, in the same volume, we also see wine moving from lip to lip as a sacred drink. According to the Gospels, Jesus turns water to wine (John 446) and wine has a prominent place in Passover and the Last Supper. While Mark 1523 serves Jesus wine in his last moments, Matthew 2734 serves him vinegar. It is obvious that the Gospel authors could not differentiate between vinegar and wine.
The contradictory position regarding wine or alcoholic beverages reaches absurdity when Jesus allegedly declared wine to be memorials of his body and blood. The Book of Revelation, a theo-fictional nightmare, mixes wine with the numerically defined beast and hell fire.
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelations 149-11).
It seems that the words grape juice, vine-gar, literal wine, and metaphorical wine, may all be mixed up in the Bible due to some intentional tampering during its oral or written transmission, and the errors committed during translations of other translations.
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Dear Emil,
I am not clear what you mean by "forbidden". If you mean legal ban, then my answer is a No. It is left to the society to regulate alcoholic beverages. I am personally against criminalization of using alcohol and drugs.
However, if you mean morally or spiritually. Absolutely. There is not a magic word, a single word to forbid a thing or act. If God tells us that something is from Satan and recommends us to stay away from it, then it is forbidden. I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction.
Peace,
EdipDear all
What brother Edip writes above made me realize something. The term forbidden or haram is for many the same as legal ban, illegal, not allowed, cannot exist. That is why many "anti-forbidders" including myself jump sky-high in protest whenever somebody claims forbidden/haram.
It is not taken out of thin air though. We are very used to the muslim community making haram into illegal.
It is strange how I totally missed the distinction between legal and moral. Thank you brother Edip for making me realize. From now on I will ask a haram maker the exact you asked me, are we talking legal or moral ban?
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As a muslim, one should work politically towards a complete ban on intoxicants. If they have use in the medicinal field, they should be used there. Some religions may use certain intoxicants in ceremonies, such as indians using peyote. I am not sure where I stand on this yet.
Usually there will not be a complete ban on intoxicants in practise, because other forces in the democracy will work against that. And that one should accept.
The muslim should however, ban drugs for himself.
IF there is a place for "entheogens" for the mystic, these things should be regulated also. But I
ve read so much from many sides of this, Im not really sure what I believe about it anymore. I do see the tired narcoticsuser among them though, so if it`s just about that, it should be banned. -
Layth and others, please read the following research of mine on intoxicants. May God guide us to the right understanding
The root of the Arabic word we translated as "intoxicants" is KhaMaRa and it means "to cover." If its first letter is read with Ha (9) rather than Kh (600), it then means Red, referring to red wine (For the usage of Hamar in the Bible, see Deuteronomy 3214; Isaiah 272 Ezra 69; 722; Daniel 51-2,4). We prefer its common pronunciation. Some translations, while accepting the same pronunciation, have erroneously restricted the meaning of the word by translating it as "wine" or "liquor." Consumption of all intoxicants, be they alcoholic beverages, drugs, crack, cocaine, heroin, etc. are covered by this prohibition. The harm inflicted to individual and society by alcoholic beverages, drugs and gambling is enormous. See 590-91.
The Quran does not prohibit alcoholic beverages or drugs legally, and thus does not suggest any punishment for mere usage of alcohol. Hadith books ordaining severe penalties for the consumption of alcohol contradict the Quranic jurisprudence, since people's personal choices, how bad they may be, cannot be penalized by society. Society can only punish acts that are direct or proximate causes of harm to another person or persons. Besides, putting limitations on individual rights wastes society's resources, increases corruption, hypocrisy, and underground criminal activities, and other crimes. Legally banning and criminalizing the consumption and production of alcohol, a liquid drug, at the turn of 20th century proved to be a bad idea. Similarly, criminalizing the consumption of other drugs is also a bad idea. Society's resources should be used for the prevention and rehabilitation of these kinds of socially and psychologically caused addictions.
However, the Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals for various reasons, including moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, so do not choose to be stupid or more stupid than you already are!) and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not con-tribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang).
The common justification for using alcohol, "I drink in moderation," is not convincing, since almost all those who suffer from alcohol abuse or its consequences such as drunk driving, had started with moderation, sip by sip, and gradually increased the dosage because of peers or uncontrollable events in their lives. Today's moderate drinker may be tomorrow's addict. Why take the chance, especially when it is not a necessity? Stupidity in moderation is not something to be justified, let alone glorified. Rational people should not subject themselves and the society to the grave risks inflicted by alcohol. Besides, moral people should not support an industry that hurts a big segment of the society. The anecdotal "research" results that are occasionally advertised by the media claiming that the usage of wine or alcohol in moderation to be healthy for the heart is suspect, since beer and wine companies are major supporters of the media through commercials.
Many correlations are ignored by the so-called researchers. For instance, studying the impact of wine consumption on health, without taking into account the income, health insurance, diet, lifestyle, genetic make up, and environment of wine-drinkers, will not produce a reliable cause-and-effect relationship. Interestingly, some of the health benefits attributed to alcohol have been listed for grape juice, though in higher doses. Even if alcohol or any other drug had some economic, social and even health benefits, the Quran reminds us of the proven fact that their harms outweigh their benefits.
The Bible contains contradictory messages regarding the use of wine or alcoholic beverages. The Hebrew equivalent of the Quranic word Sakar (1667; 443) is Shekar (intoxicant) and it is criticized by the Old Testament (Leviticus 109; Judges 134, Isaiah 287; Isaiah 511; 249; 299; 5612; Joel 33; Amos 66; Pr 201; 316; Micah 211). Wine impairs the health, judgment and memory (1 Samuel 2537; Hosea 411; Peter 314-5), inflames the passions (Isaiah 511), and leads to sorrow, contention and remorse (Peter 2329-32). Wine also cheers God and man (Judges 913; Zechariah 917; Psalms 10415; Esther 110; Ecclesiastes 1019), and strengthens the body (2Samuel 162; Song 25).
Though the consumption of wine is occasionally approved and even encouraged through the daily sacrifice (Exodus 2940-41), with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 2313), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 154-10), the Bible also contains some prohibitions. For in-stance it prohibits wine for the Rechabites (Jeremiah 351-19), the Nazirites (Judges 137; Luke 115; 733), and the priests when engaged in their services (Leviticus 101, 9-11). It also lists wine as offerings of idolatry (Deuteronomy 3237-3.
The Hebrew Bible uses about a dozen words to refer to different kinds of alcoholic beverages (Ashisha, Asis, Hemer, Enabh, Mesekh, Tirosh, Sobhe, Shekar, Yekebh, Shemarim, Mesek). However, some Biblical scholars limit the application of this prohibition by translating the Shekar as "strong drink." The majority of Christian sects have no religious inhibition regarding the consumption of alcohol. Easton, a Jesus-worshipping tri-theist, writes "Our Lord miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John 21-11)."The New Testament also contains warnings for people against the excess consumption of intoxicants (Luke 2134; Romans 1313; Ephesians 518; 1 Timothy 38; Titus 17). But, in the same volume, we also see wine moving from lip to lip as a sacred drink. According to the Gospels, Jesus turns water to wine (John 446) and wine has a prominent place in Passover and the Last Supper. While Mark 1523 serves Jesus wine in his last moments, Matthew 2734 serves him vinegar. It is obvious that the Gospel authors could not differentiate between vinegar and wine.
The contradictory position regarding wine or alcoholic beverages reaches absurdity when Jesus allegedly declared wine to be memorials of his body and blood. The Book of Revelation, a theo-fictional nightmare, mixes wine with the numerically defined beast and hell fire.
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelations 149-11).
It seems that the words grape juice, vine-gar, literal wine, and metaphorical wine, may all be mixed up in the Bible due to some intentional tampering during its oral or written transmission, and the errors committed during translations of other translations.
Salam,
Thanks for sharing your views. The Bible often confused me on the issue before I realised the way it was written. Scribes trying to share "their account of the story" like hadith narrators.
We all tend to commit excess. Some of us try to make haram what Allah did not make haram. And some of us are going out of their way to glorify something which God asked to avoid. Some of us make arguments such as "avoid satan not the things pointed out by God as weapons used by Satan", that doesnt make much sense to me. This argument assumes that Satan is like me and you, a physical person that you meet everyday and have the option to not talk or interact to. If I tell you that coming to this website will cause more harm than good, you know what I mean. But when God says similar things, some of us try to distort the message and glorify the very object God asked to avoid due to our weakness.
Intoxicating oneself in moderation ??? The only moderation I can think of is the "purpose of intoxicating".
Finally, if life is a test, why would a believer sit for the exam with distorted mind due to intoxication ? Isn't reality already hard enough to grasp and often deceptive ? Its already hard enough to know the truth from our news channels, let alone listening to them while you are high on your next favorite intoxicant.
Allah knows best, may he find it fit to enlighten us and guide us.
PEACE
------------------- Student of Allah -
Dear Edip,
I thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out post on the subject...Please see my responces to the points raised.
The root of the Arabic word we translated as "intoxicants" is KhaMaRa and it means "to cover." If its first letter is read with Ha (9) rather than Kh (600), it then means Red, referring to red wine (For the usage of Hamar in the Bible, see Deuteronomy 3214; Isaiah 272 Ezra 69; 722; Daniel 51-2,4). We prefer its common pronunciation. Some translations, while accepting the same pronunciation, have erroneously restricted the meaning of the word by translating it as "wine" or "liquor." Consumption of all intoxicants, be they alcoholic beverages, drugs, crack, cocaine, heroin, etc. are covered by this prohibition. The harm inflicted to individual and society by alcoholic beverages, drugs and gambling is enormous. See 590-91.
I am not a Bible fan as you know for a) the Quran overrides the Bible (see 54, and b) the Bible is distorted to say the least in its transmission of the words of Jesus Christ. You have used the word "prohibition" which is clearly not the case with the Quran - which is what we are concerned with.
The Quran does not prohibit alcoholic beverages or drugs legally, and thus does not suggest any punishment for mere usage of alcohol. Hadith books ordaining severe penalties for the consumption of alcohol contradict the Quranic jurisprudence, since people's personal choices, how bad they may be, cannot be penalized by society. Society can only punish acts that are direct or proximate causes of harm to another person or persons. Besides, putting limitations on individual rights wastes society's resources, increases corruption, hypocrisy, and underground criminal activities, and other crimes. Legally banning and criminalizing the consumption and production of alcohol, a liquid drug, at the turn of 20th century proved to be a bad idea. Similarly, criminalizing the consumption of other drugs is also a bad idea. Society's resources should be used for the prevention and rehabilitation of these kinds of socially and psychologically caused addictions.
We are in agreement to the above.
However, the Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals for various reasons, including moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, so do not choose to be stupid or more stupid than you already are!) and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not con-tribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang).
I disagree. You have again used the word "prohinbit" which is not found in God's words on the subject.
The common justification for using alcohol, "I drink in moderation," is not convincing, since almost all those who suffer from alcohol abuse or its consequences such as drunk driving, had started with moderation, sip by sip, and gradually increased the dosage because of peers or uncontrollable events in their lives. Today's moderate drinker may be tomorrow's addict. Why take the chance, especially when it is not a necessity? Stupidity in moderation is not something to be justified, let alone glorified. Rational people should not subject themselves and the society to the grave risks inflicted by alcohol. Besides, moral people should not support an industry that hurts a big segment of the society. The anecdotal "research" results that are occasionally advertised by the media claiming that the usage of wine or alcohol in moderation to be healthy for the heart is suspect, since beer and wine companies are major supporters of the media through commercials.
Why do you assume a person needs to provide a justifiation? If a thing has not been prohibited by our Lord, then it is permissible and no excuses are nessesary for a person who decides to endulge in such act. The argument of industry or other commercial interests is nullified as a person may create wine on his/her own which has been the case for centuries before the industrial revolution and before the advent of corporate power.
Many correlations are ignored by the so-called researchers. For instance, studying the impact of wine consumption on health, without taking into account the income, health insurance, diet, lifestyle, genetic make up, and environment of wine-drinkers, will not produce a reliable cause-and-effect relationship. Interestingly, some of the health benefits attributed to alcohol have been listed for grape juice, though in higher doses. Even if alcohol or any other drug had some economic, social and even health benefits, the Quran reminds us of the proven fact that their harms outweigh their benefits.
The medical argument has never been raised, we are talking about permissibe vs. restricted, which you have already agreed is not in dispute as alcohol carried no legal ramification according to the laws of the Quran.
The Bible contains contradictory messages regarding the use of wine or alcoholic beverages. The Hebrew equivalent of the Quranic word Sakar (1667; 443) is Shekar (intoxicant) and it is criticized by the Old Testament (Leviticus 109; Judges 134, Isaiah 287; Isaiah 511; 249; 299; 5612; Joel 33; Amos 66; Pr 201; 316; Micah 211). Wine impairs the health, judgment and memory (1 Samuel 2537; Hosea 411; Peter 314-5), inflames the passions (Isaiah 511), and leads to sorrow, contention and remorse (Peter 2329-32). Wine also cheers God and man (Judges 913; Zechariah 917; Psalms 10415; Esther 110; Ecclesiastes 1019), and strengthens the body (2Samuel 162; Song 25).
The Bible also makes out that Jesus is the only way to salvation - what credibility do you place on such text?
Though the consumption of wine is occasionally approved and even encouraged through the daily sacrifice (Exodus 2940-41), with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 2313), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 154-10), the Bible also contains some prohibitions. For in-stance it prohibits wine for the Rechabites (Jeremiah 351-19), the Nazirites (Judges 137; Luke 115; 733), and the priests when engaged in their services (Leviticus 101, 9-11). It also lists wine as offerings of idolatry (Deuteronomy 3237-3.
The Hebrew Bible uses about a dozen words to refer to different kinds of alcoholic beverages (Ashisha, Asis, Hemer, Enabh, Mesekh, Tirosh, Sobhe, Shekar, Yekebh, Shemarim, Mesek). However, some Biblical scholars limit the application of this prohibition by translating the Shekar as "strong drink." The majority of Christian sects have no religious inhibition regarding the consumption of alcohol. Easton, a Jesus-worshipping tri-theist, writes "Our Lord miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John 21-11)."Bible study - no comment.
The New Testament also contains warnings for people against the excess consumption of intoxicants (Luke 2134; Romans 1313; Ephesians 518; 1 Timothy 38; Titus 17). But, in the same volume, we also see wine moving from lip to lip as a sacred drink. According to the Gospels, Jesus turns water to wine (John 446) and wine has a prominent place in Passover and the Last Supper. While Mark 1523 serves Jesus wine in his last moments, Matthew 2734 serves him vinegar. It is obvious that the Gospel authors could not differentiate between vinegar and wine.
Bible study - no comment.
The contradictory position regarding wine or alcoholic beverages reaches absurdity when Jesus allegedly declared wine to be memorials of his body and blood. The Book of Revelation, a theo-fictional nightmare, mixes wine with the numerically defined beast and hell fire.
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelations 149-11).
You are here agreeing that the Bible contains nonsencical statement - I have nothing to add.
It seems that the words grape juice, vine-gar, literal wine, and metaphorical wine, may all be mixed up in the Bible due to some intentional tampering during its oral or written transmission, and the errors committed during translations of other translations.
Let us go back to the discussion on the Quran - which is what we are concerned with. If the Quran says that alcohol is to be avoided, then I will not be in a position, nor would I dare, to argue against God's law. But if the Quran does not say such - which is the case, then I cannot agree to limit or prohibit or restrict that which God has made lawful.
Prohibition of alcohol as you have rightly pointed out, is a complete failure, and creates a society of hypocrates who will consume alcohol regardless creating, as the case with the US, an organized bootlegging and illegal trade that causes more harm than allowing the consumption to be left to the individual - under the regulation of the law.
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Dear Asana,
Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.
I answered exactly the point you raised (and which you did a good job of highlighting in bold and font size and color), yet it seems you were not satisfied wiht my answer and are saying I should have answered more!?
Not really .I wasn?t expecting you agree with me?.I only wanted you and those who know Arabic to tell me what God means by using the exact word as sin in those two verses(2219,733)?.And I was sure that you wouldn't answer it and I was proved to be right.
You just said what you?d like to say as your own personal opinion enlightening me about the usage of the word of sin.Interesting that you say this. My answer was exactly proportionate to the question raised - yet, because it did not meet your preconcieved notion on the subject, it has become unnaceptable. What am I to say?
I can see a great fallacy in your understanding/logic dear Layth .If one eats meat of pig should the person observe contact prayer/Salat or not? If not why not, if yes then why ?because according to your logic, the person committed an act of Haram.
God commands the believers what to do and not to do .Does that mean if a believer commit some sin should God command him/her not to observe Salat ? He askes the one who used the toxicant not to observer Salat because of the state of the mind to know what he/she says.The user of the intoxicant might utter blasphemy instead of praising/glorifying God.Isn?t God Merciful that ask them not to observe Salat ?Or was His intention that to endorse the using intoxicant for the believers is fine?Which one is?
Let me remind you of your claim. You stated that the word "Ith" being used in the subject of alcohol is a violation of God's commands as the belivers are to avoid "Ithm". I simply pointed out that alcohol in itself has never been called "Ithm" but that the verse says "In Them is Ithm" which gives a drastically differnt conclusion than that which you had raised.
Contradiction. God mentions four satanic acts in one verse after each other (590).And He asks us to avoid them. Would you think it?s ok if we commit a little bit of Idolatry? If not why not? If Idolatry as small as atom is a sin and we should avoid it then why not intoxicant and gambling can't be sin especially when God uses the word of sin for it?
God's Book has no contradictions. The object to be avoided is "Satan" (IjtanibuHu) and not the items as you are attempting to make out. Will you still insist on making the Quran say what it is not saying?
You?re right. nobody said a thing about gambling and game of chance but nobody said about altars of idols too that we must avoid ? .nobody said one word that no matter how small is an act of idolatry it is a sin and is Haram and must be avoided too! And yet God used one verb for four satanic acts to be avoided.
This comment was adressed to all the Internet doctors who are suddenl providing medical claims as to why alcohol should be avoided...I am simply pointing out the obvious, that the risk of such items is related to specific items (causing strife, forgetting the rememberance of God) and not to the myriad of self made excuses that were being posted.
Fallacy again. In 1667 God mentions making of intoxicants and good provision from palms and grapes? If intoxicant was good provision then why mentioning of ?good provision? there? He could have only said that you make good provision from Palms and grapes then we all knew that intoxicants are good provision too.
"You make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for people who comprehend"
Can it get any clearer than this? God not only acknolweldges that wine is being made from these fruits, but He calls is a "sign" for people who comprehend!
Wowwwwwwwww! Surely that wine is not intoxicant as in our human concept like the water there is not polluted too.
So, now you are saying that the "khamr" in Heaven is not real "khamr" (fruit juce I guess!). Naming it "khamr" then becomes a msitake on God's part since it will not "cover" as "khamr" inherintly does - you are clutching at straw shere.
God does not leave the believers live in gray zone....His truth is either black or white....Those who believe using intoxicants is ok since God mentioned of some benefit in them live in gray zone which is man-made.
The only grey-zone is the one you have constructed on your own...A believer can be intoxicated and still be a believer (see 443) - will you dispute this obvious fact?
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Let us go back to the discussion on the Quran - which is what we are concerned with. If the Quran says that alcohol is to be avoided, then I will not be in a position, nor would I dare, to argue against God's law. But if the Quran does not say such - which is the case, then I cannot agree to limit or prohibit or restrict that which God has made lawful.
590
591If you read the verses above it's clear that Allah tell you to avoid intoxicant ( = avoid it) as for the ban i agree with you banning it is a complete failure but no where in the Quran does Allah say to ban it but still intoxicant should be avoided by choice.
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Quote
However, the Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals for various reasons, including moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, so do not choose to be stupid or more stupid than you already are!) and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not con-tribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang).I disagree. You have again used the word "prohibit" which is not found in God's words on the subject.
- forbid somebody to stop somebody from doing something by passing a law or rule that forbids it
- prevent somebody to prevent somebody from doing something
Grand Qur'aan has prevented from using it and questioned whether you will hold back/avoid it.
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590
591If you read the verses above it's clear that Allah tell you to avoid intoxicant ( = avoid it) as for the ban i agree with you banning it is a complete failure but no where in the Quran does Allah say to ban it but still intoxicant should be avoided.
I agree with TheStranger. I don't see a clear ban on intoxicants and gambling but rather a Strong Recommendation by God to avoid or to abstain from intoxicants and gambling since these tools can be used by the devil as means to be divert us from the remembrance of God. But then again when God says something should be avoided does this mean it is forbidden??? This is where the confusion arises.
Brother Edip made some good points as well. One point which made me reconsider my stance is ....
There is not a magic word, a single word to forbid a thing or act. If God tells us that something is from Satan and recommends us to stay away from it, then it is forbidden. I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction.
I'm very hesitate to say that intoxicants are forbidden because if one reads 590-91 it sounds more like recommendation rather than a clear prohibition.
590 O you who acknowledge, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you then desist?
In any case , as I have said before an intelligent believer would accept God's recommendation and not vice versa. I personally would not and never recommend any person to consume intoxicants because the great harm that it can do to the body and society, if abused. These are some of the things which we need to take into consideration before we engage in gambling , intoxicants , sacraments and fortunes. Remember that all of these practices are placed under the same level as intoxicants which why I would strongly recommend for others not to engage in such practices. The Quran makes a firm stance that these practices are dangerous for a believer to engage in. If we are wise we would listen to what God is recommending.
This other issue about drinking in moderation is questionable since yes there are people who can drink in moderation (so I've heard) but there some who can't because alcohol is an additive substance. This is one of the main dangers of alcohol. If one is not careful or mindful enough one can end up in a state of drunkenness. And trust me you don't want to ever be in a state of drunkenness since you can do foolish and dangerous things which would not only endanger yourself but others as well.
As believers, one of our main goals should be to avoid the Satan at all costs. Why should we engage in practices that seek to sever the bond we have with our Creator???
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you then desist?
If we wish to have the best chance of being successful it would be wise to abstain from such practices indefinitely since these tools can be used against us if we are not careful.
Peace,
Kevin. -
"I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction."
Indeed.
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I cannot understand where you see "such a strong divine injunction" considering that there are much stronger divine injunctions in quran and the laws of khamr pale in comparison. 443 doesn't for example say believers should clean all the blood off your clothes when you have finished your murdering spree. Or when you have come back from the brothel, make sure to have a shower. I can understand it only from a perspective of strong conservatism. To be honest I will not yield to anyone clinging to any system other than that in quran itself. Bottom line, there are limits that shall not be exceeded and any who do so are transgressors, whichever side they are on.
"but still intoxicant should be avoided by choice" - "should be" "by choice" do not belong in the same sentence. I agree that being drunk or drinking at all, gambling, etc are things that believers 99% would not do but that does not mean for a second it should be forbidden.
Believers are NOT average people. Believers do not have sex before marriage. Believers do not steal. Believers do not ever give less than full measure when dealing. Believers do not murder, they fast, they are humble, they do not let fear of people/life get in the way of fear of ALLAH, they follow no code except the codes of ALLAH. Tell me if you have met a single "moderate drinker" that you stereotype with these characteristics because I haven't! Most people in society will lie, cheat, steal, kill, with sure pride and they will drink to excess. Their life is already one of excess and the excess carries through to intoxicating. A believer does not live in extremes. Saying "look at the disbelievers" for reasons why alcohol should be banned is like saying "look at the disbelievers" for reasons why guns should be banned even as quran prescribes fighting.
There is a time and place for everything. Not for a second can you compare one who looks to the judgement to one who wanders without purpose. Every single reason behind their actions is different.
